Advice needed: B&W 704 vs. Sonus Faber Concerto

[yoellax]

My wife and I listen exclusively to classical music. We are looking to purchase a new system, and we've been listening to a lot of different speakers. We're looking to spend around US$2000 for two speakers.

After listening to many different speakers, we have narrowed it down to two possibilities: We like the B&W 704 and the Sonus Faber Concerto. Of course the former is a floor-standing speaker, while the latter is a bookshelf speaker.

We've tested both speakers with a variety of different recordings (piano, voice, orchestral) and actually liked the Sonus Faber better because of the warmth of the sound. Our concern is that the bookshelf speaker may not fill our living room, which measures 30' by 15', with ceilings going up to 14'. The B&W has more to offer in the bass range and may be a better option.

I would appreciate any comments on either of these two speakers which may help us solve the conundrum.

BTW, our third-best was the JM Lab 714S, which comes in around $1500 for the pair, but it was dominated by the B&W 704 more or less clearly along every dimension.

[RGA]

Well I happen not to like the new B&W 700 series speakers much but my taste varies -- i like the genres you list but I also like dance pop and rock etc and this is a bug area of weakness for the entire 700 series to my ear. I actually found all of them to lack bass and and dynamics scale and impact. They're cool looking though but sonically not my cup of tea. It's a shame because I used to own B&W and some of their stuff I like quite a lot. Sonus is a bit darker to me but it's been a long time since I've heard them -- Chances are I would like them more than the 700 series -- but then i like most speakers against the 700 series including the less expensive 600 series. Granted the 700 series does some things better but rock isn't one of them. If you can set the 604S3 up someplace
"well" you might be surprised -- but for classical the 600 series tweeter may falter against the 700 series tweeter.

It is very hard to get bass from a standmount -- my own speakers would serve you here even in that size of a room but it costs a lot more cash. It's a falacy to assume a standmount won't work in a bigger room -- floorstanders won't necesaarily fill the space any better. The 704 isn't a very big speaker and is more like a standmount with a bigger box included.

I would also ask your question on http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/bbs.html
as there are many more people who may have a wide array of suggestions for you. If it really is ultimately between these two speakers I would simply get the dealer to let you take them both home to try over the weekend - throw every recording you have at them. Peoples tastes vary. I find the B&W 700 series to be one of the worst values in the audio industry -- the Sonus Fabers sound a little dark and mellow -- but I 'd take that over the fatiguing qualities of what I hear from B&W. Listen for LONG periods at a good loud volume level. I can listen to my speakers for 8 consecutive hours at levels where you have to shout to hear another person talking to you (and with very open extended treble). On some speakers by track four you'd have a headache.

Also when auditioning try this method out -- it is writen by an audio maker but does not have to apply to their products but any product you audition. The best thing is that it requires no magazine review or self-appointed "golden-ear" to trust -- it doesn;t even require you to bring your own music with you -- it only requires TIME. It works surprisingly well to boot. http://www.audionote.co.uk/anp1.htm

[drseid]

Well I also would pick the SF for classical... I do see your concerns about the room though.

Have you considered looking on Audiogon.com for a pair of used Sonus Faber Grand Piano Homes? They should go for about 2K, and should meet your requirements nicely.

---Dave

[Florian]

My wife and I listen exclusively to classical music. We are looking to purchase a new system, and we've been listening to a lot of different speakers. We're looking to spend around US$2000 for two speakers.

After listening to many different speakers, we have narrowed it down to two possibilities: We like the B&W 704 and the Sonus Faber Concerto. Of course the former is a floor-standing speaker, while the latter is a bookshelf speaker.

We've tested both speakers with a variety of different recordings (piano, voice, orchestral) and actually liked the Sonus Faber better because of the warmth of the sound. Our concern is that the bookshelf speaker may not fill our living room, which measures 30' by 15', with ceilings going up to 14'. The B&W has more to offer in the bass range and may be a better option.

I would appreciate any comments on either of these two speakers which may help us solve the conundrum.

BTW, our third-best was the JM Lab 714S, which comes in around $1500 for the pair, but it was dominated by the B&W 704 more or less clearly along every dimension.

Also add the Magnepan MG 1.6 used to the list. Or a used Apogee Caliper or Duetta. If you like reviews than you will have to look very very hard to find one that is negative in anyway.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

My wife and I listen exclusively to classical music. We are looking to purchase a new system, and we've been listening to a lot of different speakers. We're looking to spend around US$2000 for two speakers.

After listening to many different speakers, we have narrowed it down to two possibilities: We like the B&W 704 and the Sonus Faber Concerto. Of course the former is a floor-standing speaker, while the latter is a bookshelf speaker.

We've tested both speakers with a variety of different recordings (piano, voice, orchestral) and actually liked the Sonus Faber better because of the warmth of the sound. Our concern is that the bookshelf speaker may not fill our living room, which measures 30' by 15', with ceilings going up to 14'. The B&W has more to offer in the bass range and may be a better option.

I would appreciate any comments on either of these two speakers which may help us solve the conundrum.

BTW, our third-best was the JM Lab 714S, which comes in around $1500 for the pair, but it was dominated by the B&W 704 more or less clearly along every dimension.

I used to own the Sonus Faber Concerto Home and liked them for a while but its specific colorations finally got to me and I sold it without any regrets, Ironically my sister likes their sound I happen to think that the 704 may turn out to be the superior speaker in the long run because of its ability to follow a beat, I say that because the Cremona Auditor (next up SF seris) is leaner speaker and in that respect closer in warmth signature to the 704, and as consequence does fall into the trap that the Concerto fall into. The Concerto sounds great with acoustic string instruments and voices because of the extra body that warmth provides, but these very colorations are its undoing when it replays full bodied instruments back or attempts to track complex climaxes, much to my frustration it loses the rhythm a little bit and one morning it lost the beat again or should I say I sense some unease in its midrange and off it went to the chopping block.

Apart from the extra bass, that extra woofer on the 704 will come in handy on climaxes as it will allow for greater dynamic freedom, it will go louder more freely a feature that you will appreciate when listen to the likes of Brahms, Richard Strauss or Mahler, other speakers that have impressed of late are the Genelec 8000 series, For the cash, they are marvellous, the dynamic freedom is so good on the 8050 and 8040, a speaker that may also interest you, but I do not know their cost are the new ELAC 602 X-JET, it's a 3-way stand-mount that goes down to about 32Hz, is equipped with a rather neat coaxial midrange driver, the original ribbon tweeter did acoustics instruments very well and a dedicated woofer below 410Hz means that these babies will not sound dynamically restrained when the going gets tough. I will forget the JMLab Cobalts as they are really not in the same league as the 700 series, If you like the JM Lab sound then you need to be thinking about the Electra Series, which in some respects might be even better than the 700 series, but and a big but, there is narrow region of brightness in there and it costs a lot more.

I will not visit the AA with this kind of question, all you will get is load of opinionated rubbish with most folks simply trying to champion the speaker brand they own.

[Pat D]

My wife and I listen exclusively to classical music. We are looking to purchase a new system, and we've been listening to a lot of different speakers. We're looking to spend around US$2000 for two speakers.

After listening to many different speakers, we have narrowed it down to two possibilities: We like the B&W 704 and the Sonus Faber Concerto. Of course the former is a floor-standing speaker, while the latter is a bookshelf speaker.

We've tested both speakers with a variety of different recordings (piano, voice, orchestral) and actually liked the Sonus Faber better because of the warmth of the sound. Our concern is that the bookshelf speaker may not fill our living room, which measures 30' by 15', with ceilings going up to 14'. The B&W has more to offer in the bass range and may be a better option.

I would appreciate any comments on either of these two speakers which may help us solve the conundrum.

BTW, our third-best was the JM Lab 714S, which comes in around $1500 for the pair, but it was dominated by the B&W 704 more or less clearly along every dimension.

I haven't heard either speaker you mention, though I have heard the B & W 705 and the Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano and I liked both quite a lot. I am a little confused as to the Sonus Faber speaker you mean because the SF Concerto Domus is a floorstander listing at $1995 US in the S & V Buyer's Guide 2005 whereas the Concertino Domus is a standmount listing at $1195. Both the Concerto Domus and the B & W 704 are spec'd at 40 Hz for low frequency extension so they should be comparable in this respect. If it is the Concertino Domus you like, you could always spend the difference on a good subwoofer from someone like Hsu, SVS, Paradigm, etc. and get excellent bass extension.

My advice is to go with the speaker you prefer, with particular emphasis on natural, uncoloured sound and ease of listening. Deep bass extension is not nearly as important as the midrange and highs. You can always get a subwoofer later if needed, which in a big room like yours might be advisable anyway.

Be sure to try your choice out at home.

[nightflier]

I have not heard the B&W, but I did have the opportunity to compare the SF with a Dynaudio Audience 52 for some time, which I believe is still w/in your price range. My opinion was that the Dynes did a better job with classical. We used music by Hovhaness, Beethoven's Egmont, Bach's Cello Concertos, as well as a few jazz titles (Krall, Miles, Schuur, Brubeck). Although I would also agree that the the SF's are warmer, this seemed to my ears to be excessive and I prefered the seperation and dynamism of the Dynes. In part II, Zwischenakt of Egmont, I could pick out the singer's breath and even noises from within the studio (or concert hall?) that they were recording in. The SF's also had these but they were further back and a bit more muffled. On Hov's Symphony No. 50 the brass appeared closer than on the SF's, more "there," so to speak. On the jazz selections, though, I wasn't able to pick out the same differences (maybe it was the recordings). The Dynes did appear to be more forward, but I could not pick out little sound differences like I could with the classical music.

In any case, the Dynaudio Audience 52 bookshelves are a very impressive pair and I would definitely add them to the list. It could be that what I was looking for was more character than quality, but with the classical, I was able to pick out the Dynes consistently over the Sonuses (these were blind tests). Dynaudio speakers are generally described as warm speakers (and I like that), but I didn't mind the extra life that these speakers provided, although I did find the SF's to be a little too lifeless.

IMHO.

[Buzz Roll]

Two speakers which are known to excell with classical music are Ohm Walsh series and Shahinian. I haven't heard Shahinians, but I have Ohms, and they present classical music very very well.

[StanleyMuso]

First off, if RGA really does listen at the volume he says he does for 8 hours straight very often, perhaps he could be developing a hearing impairment, which would make his recommendations a bit suss anyway.

Seriously though, his dislike of B&W is well known, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Each person hears and experiences music differently.

I am also a classical music lover, and when I went hunting for speakers, I specifically looked for those which sound good with classical. Classical music is much more demanding on speakers than rock. When I first became interested in this hobby more years ago than I care to remember, I was told I would have to search for good quality speakers, whilst any old rubbish would do for rock. Rock tends to be loud, with little or no dynamic range. A full orchestra can be almost silent in a quiet passage and suddenly roar up to ceiling rattling levels. A speaker has to handle this dynamic range, as well as all the other subtleties demanded of it by all the different instruments and singers.

I won't bore you by listing all the speakers I listened to over a span of several years (and that included SF) but I finally settled on the B&W 703. The clincher? I could actually hear, very clearly, the words which were being sung in opera and songs. Other speakers, in comparison, sounded, to me at least, as if they were stuffed with cotton wool, and were so muffled I had to strain to hear the words. I bought my set around November 2004 so I have been with them long enough to get a good feel for them, and I am happy with my choice. I know there are better speakes out there, but there is only so much time for looking in this life, and only a certain amount of money. Once you make a choice, don't double guess yourself, and begin enjoying what you have.

Word of warning - if you get the B&Ws, you will also need a good amplifier to get the best out of them. Also, don't even try to listen closely to them for two or three weeks. Mine sounded so hard and harsh at first that I thought I had made a mistake, but after a few weeks of use at varying volumes, they mellowed out. Also, they do not like being too near the back wall (too much bass boom) - give them room to breathe - about 2 feet or so.

[StanleyMuso]

about rubbish speakers and rock was tongue in cheek. Someone actually said this to me in a hi-fi store, but I don't really believe it.

[RGA]

"Seriously though, his dislike of B&W is well known, and should be taken with a grain of salt."

Why? Why is it that if someone does not like a particular item then his word should be taken with a grain of salt -- but if someone likes it then well it should be taken as gospel.

I probably have way more experience listneing to B&W speakers than most of the people on this board -- I did own a set for several years --- and I have no dislike for B&W -- I dislike Some of their speakers but I like a lot of them -- the 602S2, 603S3, 604S3 (and the S2 versions, the CDM NT line now gone, the DM 302 and and DM 303, The Model Nautilus - hell I even recommend the leisure moniitors. Indeed for most posters who have been here for a while felt i was too far on the B&W bandwagon.

I like and dislike speakers not companies -- Paradigm and B&W are discussed a LOT because they are mainstream companies --- chances are I will talk about Ford and GM more than i will talk about a Ferarri too.

When it comes to speakers it's one apersoanl taste issue and 2 a matter of what people have heard and the access they have. Just because a speaker maker comes out with a new line does not mean it will be better -- I feel B&W has been going int he wrong direction over the years -- it's still for the most part good gear -- Just some lines have dissapointed me -- I've grown accustomed to expecting more from B&W.

[dave123456@mail.com]

about rubbish speakers and rock was tongue in cheek. Someone actually said this to me in a hi-fi store, but I don't really believe it.

I disagree with this statement as well. Metallica was the main reason i got into audio in the first place, and they remain one of my favorites.

It seems to me that hard rock/metal is much harder to get right than pop and other 'softer' music. Hard rock has more to it and is more aggresive, so if a speaker sucks then it will just sound like muddy aggresive noise- which is not enjoyable in the least.

When I first got a pair of decent speakers, everything from Kiss to Irom Maiden to Metallica to ACDC to Black Sabbath etc etc. Became much more listenable.

The people who say rock doesnt need a good system are probaly the same people who dont even listen to rock, or have bad systems and tend to think rock sucks because their speakers are bright and lean.

A lot of people tend to blame rock for its bad recordings, but I think every type of music should sound better with better gear, even the crappy recordings. It doesnt make sence to me that a "good" speaker would make some recordings sound WORSE than on lesser speakers. If this were true then id just give up right now since im not going to change my listening preferences to suit my systems limitations.

[psonic]

Have you given Dynaudio a listen? Go to the website and check out some models and see if there's a dealer nearby. Many of their models are "best buys" in the price class. The Audience 72 is a floorstander under $2k as is possibly the 82. They should easily fill your room. I feel they can best the B&W, JMO, but I urge you to give them a chance if you can.

http://www.dynaudiousa.com/company/dlr.htm

[topspeed]

What have you listened to so far? What will you be driving them with? What are the aspects that are most important to you?