Advice needed: B&W 704 vs. Sonus Faber Concerto

[RGA]

I disagree with this statement as well. Metallica was the main reason i got into audio in the first place, and they remain one of my favorites.

It seems to me that hard rock/metal is much harder to get right than pop and other 'softer' music. Hard rock has more to it and is more aggresive, so if a speaker sucks then it will just sound like muddy aggresive noise- which is not enjoyable in the least.

When I first got a pair of decent speakers, everything from Kiss to Irom Maiden to Metallica to ACDC to Black Sabbath etc etc. Became much more listenable.

The people who say rock doesnt need a good system are probaly the same people who dont even listen to rock, or have bad systems and tend to think rock sucks because their speakers are bright and lean.

A lot of people tend to blame rock for its bad recordings, but I think every type of music should sound better with better gear, even the crappy recordings. It doesnt make sence to me that a "good" speaker would make some recordings sound WORSE than on lesser speakers. If this were true then id just give up right now since im not going to change my listening preferences to suit my systems limitations.

I agree the speakers and or system doesn;t or should not care what it gets. Synthesizers go beyond the frequency limits or can of classical music save the pedal organ and even here the synthesizer can. A numberof magazines uses Madonna's Ray of Light(her albums have mostly all been excellent) to judge gear. Big dynamics and room shaking bass -- Ditto for some of Sarah Mclachlan. For strings if you like female vocals and a folk kind of sound I suggest Allison Kraus and Union Station (also available on SACD and DVD Audio). This is as good a test for systems as any classical album I own especially if it's about the music and not just about the pyrotechnics. Rock music and probably pop during the early days of cd was not great but then some of the LP's made from digital like some of the CHER LPs are dynamically inept.

But take Aerosmith's Pump CD "Love in an Elevator" This track on CD (recently bought the LP but have not tried it yet) will and should knock you on your ass with treble that seems to go on forever with high impact.

I think what the die hards are saying is that MOST of the rock/pop discs are limited - they are probably correct -- I also feel some of them sort of spend up all their headroom early so there's not that extra when it needs it..This is hard for me to describe it would be easier to show it in action I suppose. I don;t own any Metallica as Aerosmith, AC/DC and Motely Crue are about as hard as I go...I need to be able to hear the annunciation(Sp?) of the lyrics without having to read the liners (AC/DC sometimes doesn't cut it there). Though my one LP dealer must have 5 brand new still sealed Metallica albums -- If i had some cash I'd pop for one just to see if I'd like them.

[dave123456@mail.com]

I agree the speakers and or system doesn;t or should not care what it gets. Synthesizers go beyond the frequency limits or can of classical music save the pedal organ and even here the synthesizer can. A numberof magazines uses Madonna's Ray of Light(her albums have mostly all been excellent) to judge gear. Big dynamics and room shaking bass -- Ditto for some of Sarah Mclachlan. For strings if you like female vocals and a folk kind of sound I suggest Allison Kraus and Union Station (also available on SACD and DVD Audio). This is as good a test for systems as any classical album I own especially if it's about the music and not just about the pyrotechnics. Rock music and probably pop during the early days of cd was not great but then some of the LP's made from digital like some of the CHER LPs are dynamically inept.

But take Aerosmith's Pump CD "Love in an Elevator" This track on CD (recently bought the LP but have not tried it yet) will and should knock you on your ass with treble that seems to go on forever with high impact.

I think what the die hards are saying is that MOST of the rock/pop discs are limited - they are probably correct -- I also feel some of them sort of spend up all their headroom early so there's not that extra when it needs it..This is hard for me to describe it would be easier to show it in action I suppose. I don;t own any Metallica as Aerosmith, AC/DC and Motely Crue are about as hard as I go...I need to be able to hear the annunciation(Sp?) of the lyrics without having to read the liners (AC/DC sometimes doesn't cut it there). Though my one LP dealer must have 5 brand new still sealed Metallica albums -- If i had some cash I'd pop for one just to see if I'd like them.

Yeah, I mean some of the rock/pop recordings can sound a little harsher than other genres, but its not to the point of being unlistenable and still sounds better than a boombox.

Im also a Monte Crue - at least of Shout At The Devil and Too Fast For Love.Female vocals im not too big of a fan, except maybe No Doubt and some of the oldies. No Doubt's ' Im Just A Girl' ( not as lame as it sounds) is an excellent song for testing dynamics as her voice is all over the place and is also a good song.

As far as Metallica, If you dont like clear vocals then stay away from Kill Em All and most of Ride The Lightning. Although, both of these albums have killer geetar work ( Ride The Lightning being my favorite Metallica album- For Whom The Bells Tolls my favorite song by them) Their self titled album and Master Of Puppets would be a much better choice since they are mellower and more coherant. If you can get a decent deal on their albums then id suggest Master Of Puppets- listen to Sanatarium and Orion for mellower tracks.

And when you say "pyrotechnics" do you mean imaging and soundstage? Because it seems good imaging helps me get into the music and makes it more enjoyable. Id be suprised if i found music more enjoyable without it.

[RGA]

Pyrotechnics are all the buzz words -- if i notice it and it gets in the way it's a pyrotechnic to me -- I never listen live and say wow check out the imaging of the band. And it seems that the buzz words change -- soudnstaging used to be that you could tell where the instruments were on the stage and they were separate entities - Imaging has been used to sdescribe this exact thing so who knows - I try to stop worrying about the lingo for the same reason I stopped intently reading the meausrements of and spec sheets by the brands as much as possible -- even then I get pulled into them from time to time on issues like bass and treble -- which is also silly since I've heard lots of speakers that claim 40hz and a great many sound like they have it and others that don't.

Really it all just boils down to listening and if it does the musical genres you love then that;s the one to buy. My Whardefales are not supremely truthful in audiophile accuracy terms but it is killer for music like AC/DC Aerosmith and hard and heavy rock. If this is the music one listens to 90% of the time along with movies then these people would probably get a lot of enjoyment out of them -- I did and still do.

My Wharfedales are three ways and look very much like these but with three drivers http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...777218135&rd=1

Mine were the flagship though and came a few years after the E70 -- no law says you can;t have two sets of speakers -- one to take the pounding for rock and then another kind to listen to other genres.

[alexperl]

I agree with RGA, you can test speakers with Jazz or Classics much much better then rock music, rock recordings are very bad and i have a lot of them.
Of corse there is a good recordings too like Dire Straits Brothers In Arms but even this recording not close to Chesky Records.
I like to listen to a well recorded cd, i like to hear a dinamics, kiling mids of a strings, and with most rock music i just do not hear that and i like rock music very much...
Maybe in the future the recordings of a rock music will be better, i really hope..
Sorry for my English.

[nightflier]

My typical audition torture tracks also include tracks from Rush (particularly their later more synthesized material), Massive Attack (for the bass), Eric Clapton (maybe 'cause I know the tracks so well), and Blue Oyster Cult (Vengance from F.O.U.O. is a good one). I also have some Metallica albums, but I just don't think they are that dynamic (don't flame me).

But there is something about orchestral music that rock just doesn't have: as many instruments. It's just much more appropriate for auditioning. If I can place the instruments on the stage like hear the ringing of bells, the vibrations of the strings, the soft melody of the clarinet, and the ominous booming of the drum all from different places in front of me, from a piece I know very well, there is just more for me to listen for. Even listening to an opera solo, it is just much more likely that the singer will have a tremendously larger range than your typical pop or rock star. Not always, but most often.

That said...

The question Yeollax asked is which of the two speakers (B&W 704 or Sonus Faber Concerto) would best be able to reproduce the music they listen to, which is mostly classical. It seems to me that most people here give the B&W the nod, or am I gauging this wrong?

[RGA]

I don't believe the nod is being given one way or the other -- if the person feels B&W does better with what he likes to listen to then that;s the only thing in the thread that matters (though I get the sense he prefers Sonus Faber anyway so none of this much matters). I can't speak to most of the rock recordings mentioned so far because I don't listen to it. there are two kinds of dynamics - microdynamics and macrodynamics and the latter is handled reasonable well by most. IMO B&W across the board is weak at the former...it's just an opinion but it widely cosnidered to be a speaker that sounds better when you turn it up louder -- all speakers that fall into this sort of camp are weak in microdynamics because it would not be felt by the listener to alaways turn it up to make things out. This is typically a very strong area for Electrostatic and panel speakers. IMO most people probably never really listen much or notice microdynamics in music because so few do it very well -- ditto for low level resolution. classical music starts at such a low level much of the time and goes way up there. Rock starts in the middle so the range is smaller most of the time. I also find a lot of speakers compress fast on rock and pop and jazz so the album is blamed for lack of headroom -- I have several recordings that did that on my B&W's and many others I've listened to that don't do it anymore. Quite simply it was the speakers not the recordings. Your mileage may vary.

[topspeed]

RGA, how in the world do you get the feeling the OP is leaning towards SF? He has posted a grand total of...ONE TIME! Hell, I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions!

[theaudiohobby]

I have several recordings that did that on my B&W's and many others I've listened to that don't do it anymore. Quite simply it was the speakers not the recordings. Your mileage may vary.

Your B&W in this case is DM 302, irrespective of how you feel about it, it is 2 lines down from the 700 series, the 300 and 700 series are totally different animals with practically nothing in common, apart from being produced by the same company. And cannot be used as basis for judging the performance of the 704.