2-way vs 3-way which is better

[Florian]

What the hell is that supposed to mean?
if it is what i think it is, then crawl back to Best Buy were you came from

[shokhead]

Oh,ok. Well lets stop talking about you,your speakers and me and get back to 2 and 3 way speakers. I'll start. I think a good two-way bookshelf not only will sound good but save abit of money over a tower.

[RGA]

abstracta

Your post is quite strange indeed, knocking boxed speakers for lack of dynamics -- why support planars -- which woefully are innadequat in this regard - even by those who favourable review them say that?

A great many reviews and personal opinion note B&W's lack of driver integration.

Yes many speakers do have small drivers in a bigger cabinet -- AN is Birch ply or chipboard in their inexpensive enclosures. MDF has been used strategically as a wrap for some less expensive models.

As for soundstage -- AN recommends the sepaker be placed in corners preceisely because the stage will be as large as your room can hold and bass is reinforced so that the perception is that the sound is the size of your wall (it should be not artifially faked to be larger). The two driver two way can reach 16hz-18hz (with a usuable frequency to 12hz) at reasonably loud levels.

Audio Note's woofers act in a radiating manner and not as pistons augmenting the cabinet to expiditiously remove resonances outside of the audible realm.

I respect the fact that people may like Magnepan and electrostatic panels --- not everyone does -- Reviewer John Marks of Stereophile doesn't like them -- big fat hairy deal -- if you guys like em then that's the point -- your money your preference --- ditto for me.

[Geoffcin]

abstracta

Your post is quite strange indeed, knocking boxed speakers for lack of dynamics -- why support planars -- which woefully are innadequat in this regard - even by those who favourable review them say that?

Planars are incredible for dynamics. Case in point; My daughter just turned me onto the soundtrack from the Pirates of the Carribean. The classical score is huge in dynamics, but I didn't know how much until I pulled out the SPL meter. The swing was from ~40db to well over 105db (I briefly saw 107) My entire house was shaking and it sounded like a 140 piece ochestra was right in the room with us, 3 sets of Tympani and all. If your standmounts can recreate this type of music in this way then god bless you, because I've never heard such from ANY standmount speaker ever made.

[Florian]

Planars are incredible for dynamics. Case in point; My daughter just turned me onto the soundtrack from the Pirates of the Carribean. The classical score is huge in dynamics, but I didn't know how much until I pulled out the SPL meter. The swing was from ~40db to well over 105db (I briefly saw 107) My entire house was shaking and it sounded like a 140 piece ochestra was right in the room with us, 3 sets of Tympani and all. If your standmounts can recreate this type of music in this way then god bless you, because I've never heard such from ANY standmount speaker ever made.

I can only state the same. The dynamics and realistic recreation of the performance. Your soundstage is as big as your room RGA ? I pitty you, because mine extends beyon the natural boundries of the room. If you like to quote people from Stereophile etc... then here goes one for you

Jonathan Valin, of Fi Magazine, said in December, 1998, Volume 3, Issue 12,

"So what have we got here? A big planar speaker that throws the widest, deepest, tallest, most coherent soundfield I've heard from a hi-fi system, filled with the most naturally-sized instruments I've heard from a hi-fi system, with the sweetest, most natural timbres I've heard from a hi-fi system, the finest dynamic nuance I've heard from a hi-fi system (particularly in the treble), and the most natural illusion of instrumental "action" I've heard from a hi-fi system. What we've got here, in sum, is "realistic reproduction" in the highest sense of the phrase, in the sense I spoke of earlier, the virtual duplication of instruments and voices rather than mere analogs of certain aspects of their sound....While it's hard to call anything that costs nearly ten grand a bargain, I can tell you this; if it were my money, and I were shopping for the very best, these are the speakers I'd buy."

Oh another one

Stereophile's by Brian Damkroger said this about the MG3.6 in August 2000

Taken on its own, however, the Magnepan Magneplanar MG3.6/R is a sensational speaker and, at $3750/pair, very reasonably priced. In some respects it's the best speaker I've heard period. Even in the areas where it's perhaps not the very best, it's awfully close -even when the very best is several times more expensive. Some speakers I admire, some I like ... the Magnepan MG3.6/R, I think I'll keep. Very highly recommended!

I suggest a competition, give me one person in germany with some AN speaker and we will compare it to the 3.6R/SE...

[Geoffcin]

abstracta


As for soundstage -- AN recommends the sepaker be placed in corners preceisely because the stage will be as large as your room can hold and bass is reinforced so that the perception is that the sound is the size of your wall (it should be not artifially faked to be larger). The two driver two way can reach 16hz-18hz (with a usuable frequency to 12hz) at reasonably loud levels.

My room is 16 feet wide. If I were to place 2 standmount speakers in the corners it would sound like what it is; two standmount speakers in the corners with NOTHING in the middle. Since they are not dipoles, NOTHING would be coming from the center of the room except the sound of sucking air. Perhaps that's what you call soundstage debth, but to me it would sound like a big vacant hole.

The bass re-enforcement your talking about does occur, but even with just rudimentry math you can easily figure that an 8" speaker with a free air resonance of 25 hz at best can only produce a few db of bass below that without major excursion of the driver, and hence massive distortion. It's simple physics, and unless you've found a way to create cold fusion there's no way around it.

Usable frequancy @ 12 hz?! Not even my twin 15" Velodynes could give you that, for that you have to go to the massive multi-thousand watt (6000 thousand but who's counting) Velodyne Digital Drive 1812 Signature Edition. Are you saying your 8" woofered standmounts can compete with a sub like that, or perhaps they can only just outdo my two 15" velodynes?

[RGA]

My room is 16 feet wide. If I were to place 2 standmount speakers in the corners it would sound like what it is; two standmount speakers in the corners with NOTHING in the middle. Since they are not dipoles, NOTHING would be coming from the center of the room except the sound of sucking air. Perhaps that's what you call soundstage debth, but to me it would sound like a big vacant hole.

The bass re-enforcement your talking about does occur, but even with just rudimentry math you can easily figure that an 8" speaker with a free air resonance of 25 hz at best can only produce a few db of bass below that without major excursion of the driver, and hence massive distortion. It's simple physics, and unless you've found a way to create cold fusion there's no way around it.

Usable frequancy @ 12 hz?! Not even my twin 15" Velodynes could give you that, for that you have to go to the massive multi-thousand watt (6000 thousand but who's counting) Velodyne Digital Drive 1812 Signature Edition. Are you saying your 8" woofered standmounts can compete with a sub like that, or perhaps they can only just outdo my two 15" velodynes?

Actually not only am i saying this Peter will bet you on it...he has said and argued on forums before that while the competition has speakers with 4 multiple 12 inch woofers per side (he owns some of them and big Apogee Scintillas) that it is not NECESARRY for Full range bass.

There is also complex physics apparently -- maybe everyone is sticking only to simple physics. (Usable response is -10db and the E is 12hz here) -- though I don;t know if that is ALL the E's or just the higher ones where there is a different HF Alnico woofer being used. There is no doubt that the cabinet itself is augmenting the deep bass. (now there is a volume capability limit here however - A subwoofer can play 20hz way louder (where the physics comes in) and Audio Note isn't designed to play at a 140db...which is why when you pay more you are not just getting another driver slapped in a box to add 4hz you get better sound. Also there is a room size limit -- AN is built for normal listening rooms not 4000square foot gymnasium sized rooms. so of Course you can get MORE deep bass with a dedicated massive subwoofer -- whether it will be GOOD bass or not well that is something else again -- and for people who think bass is just bass - have yet to hear it done properly.

The AN E will however do the 16hz organ pedal test and at the shows a few years ago several people from competitors were looking in the ceiling for the "hidden subwoofer" because it is "impossible" to achieve bass that deep from that size cabinet with that size driver --- impossible for some maybe(BTW this was also done via LP on their turntable and was more about demonstrating that than anything else). Now these figures were confirmed by Martin Colloms in Hi-fi News and these figures ARE in room response with the speakers in the corners...so yes they are helped by their position and wall reinfrcement -- but that's the design - the cabinet adds about an octave apparently if one of the reviewers who said it was correct --- though. And to be fair these are Bigger than your average standmounts.

The speakers are not heavily damped (they have taken the damping out so much so as to remove the ferro-fluid cooling) - they use strategic damping to alleviate that boxed nasality which is why SOOOOOO many people including me never "upgraded" to boxed speakers". Your descriptions of boxed speakers is not surprising and I don't think it's wrong -- when i first heard Stats there was a sound there that I despearately wanted.

When I listen to the AN J or E and then listen to a Totem or B&W it's like someone has thrown a wet blanket over the thing -- why the hell do you think I go into forums and become the human torch?

There is a fellow here who owned the Mani 2 for several years spent a whole 10 minutes with the E and that was that, --the Mani2 was gone. Another fellow the last time I was at Soundhounds owns the top of the line GIGANTIC Tannoy Winchester or whatever it's called (whcih Soundhounds carried as well) That speaker is at least 3 times the volume maybe 4 or 5 that of the E. This guy and his wife were sitting behind me and we were listening to Also sprach Zarathrustra and some Leanard Cohen and Allison Krauss and his wife was gee that sounds better doesn't it...he was shaking his head in rather frustrated disbelief. Yeah a whole 8 watts driving it.

It is also not surprising that 3 different quad owners (who I know personally and on forums) who have heard Audio Note have said it's the only boxed speaker they have ever heard that they'd consider giving up their panel for (which granted was said about the E and not the K)...indeed, one of them has owned Quad for 25 years and now has the E...it has the open sound (not artificially created with a spitty metal tweeter) it has the scale and more importantly, and a BIG reason I like them, is that they have the speed and attack on acoustic instruments that I have never heard from a BOXED speakers (thanks to paper and high efficiency baflfe and lack of overdamping perhaps).

They have been described as the best of horns and stats rolled up together into one speaker.

Peter could have taken the rights of Apogee and used those as models (and he could charge way more to boot) to improve -- he owns the top Apoogees 9scintillas which are panels?) and has dealt Quad -- Quad has contracted Audio Note's top designer Andy Grove. Peter does not claim to know everything -- he steals everyone elses stuff and makes it better -- no reason to re-invent the wheel when it's perfectly round --- many other ocmpanies had to make big compromises due to finances -- Peter doesn't need to.

Bottom line is they've been around since the 1970s selling uber expensive gear - UK side of things have come to down to a saner price level -- and NO not everyone is going to like it -- and yes it is a bit of "religious" conversion -- I e-mailed him a while back and he said many people get that - and yes I respect that many won't.

[Florian]

Peter could have taken the rights of Apogee and used those as models (and he could charge way more to boot) to improve -- he owns the top Apoogees 9scintillas which are panels?) and has dealt Quad -- Quad has contracted Audio Note's top designer Andy Grove. Peter does not claim to know everything -- he steals everyone elses stuff and makes it better -- no reason to re-invent the wheel when it's perfectly round --- many other ocmpanies had to make big compromises due to finances -- Peter doesn't need to.
.

Sounds to me like he saw an oppertunity to market a cheap mdf box through the marketing of phd people and sell it for waay to much. Actually, doesnt BOSE do that?

[RGA]

I don't know the processed Silver alone in one of his AN E level speakers will run you $40,000.00 just for the silver -- they use some of the best Paper drivers available on this planet and the best Alnico magnets. All Birch Ply real wood cabinets...how much is a piece of cloth running these days?. Every speaker is hand tested and aligned -- labour is more expensive that parts in this and most industries.

Soundhounds did the demo you seek -- the result of which is that they no longer carry Magnepan --- and indeed, while they're site lists Martin logan -- they only carry them in name (ie you can order it through them) but it was too embarrassing a match-up.

Bose was very good at falsifying soundstages as well so that everything played through a 901 sound enormous whether it is suppose to or not. My session with the 3.6 and Bryston was not particularly great with unevenness and open but sizzly quality to the proceedings - bass was deep not the least bit credible in the dynamics -- so let me guess it's the amplifiers fault and or the room correct? Yeah I hear this one a lot.

You want to argue cost to price ratio you shoud be real sure where you get the information - Skeptic already got into a long thread with Peter about this on AA and the cost to end price of Audio Note is strikingly low relative to most out there...and that includes their $125,000.00 speakers -- and it doesn't avoid the fact that that every other company isn't selling their speakers at cost.

Your rhetoric of limitless high stage is idiotic sorry because when i see a band play I am not hearing the singer 50 feet in the air wither her band up there?? Heck man what the hell are you talking about? magnepan reminds me of watching a movie in pan and scan where everything is blown up larger than it is in life and misses a lot of the content for "air'

I don't really want to argue the point because I like it more than most and I get why some people would really not have anything else -- I'm not trying to convert you - but it is my opinion that ONE speaker should play all kinds of music -- a lot of maggie owners seem to always end up buying other speakers for other kinds of music or because they "Have a change of mood today?" That to me is an obvious indication that the speaker lacks for some music -- music such as rock where this kind of rythm dynamics is required.

If all I listened to was acoustic music Magnepan and Quad and ML(even with the woofer problem) I would enjoy.

[Geoffcin]

[QUOTE=RGA]
Audio Note's woofers act in a radiating manner and not as pistons augmenting the cabinet to expiditiously remove resonances outside of the audible realm.
QUOTE]

Your woofers are just that, woofers. They are mechanical pistons; no more, no less. I don't know what you've been reading but the mechanical properties of woofer dynamics have been thoroughly explained. It's not rocket science, and there's no magic that AN has found to release your woofers from the realm of the physical world.