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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I know you wont like this thread so dont reply

    ....Whats up with all the people asking a question, and already saying that we wont like it!!?
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  2. #2
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    ....Whats up with all the people asking a question, and already saying that we wont like it!!?
    There's a lot of people on web forums who respond rudely, insulting the question, the poster, or the poster's gear and and ideas in a way they wouldn't if asked face-to-face. It's common to see people put up this preliminary shield to defend themselves from these people. Not a big deal, really.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Ah well, as long as they can accept "all opinion", positive and negative its fine ;-)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  4. #4
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Ah well, as long as they can accept "all opinion", positive and negative its fine ;-)
    Are you saying your wrong sometimes?
    Look & Listen

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    Are you saying your wrong sometimes?
    Nope, all i say i do with all my feeling of rightness. I do not suggest objects i do not like, now if another person thinks i am wrong. Thats fine :-)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  6. #6
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    There's a lot of people on web forums who respond rudely, insulting the question, the poster, or the poster's gear and and ideas in a way they wouldn't if asked face-to-face. It's common to see people put up this preliminary shield to defend themselves from these people. Not a big deal, really.
    I think it is a big deal, only for the unfortunate fact that everything else you said is true.

  7. #7
    Mutant from table 9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    ....Whats up with all the people asking a question, and already saying that we wont like it!!?
    I've been asking myself the same question. I think alot of people are looking for validation. It's like this, people do dumb/wrong/illegal things everyday even though they know its dumb/wrong/illegal, they just want to know how dumb/wrong/illegal it is before they do it. Then, knowing precisely how dumb/wrong/illegal it is, they do it anyway.

    That, and they're just trolls that don't know how to lurk for a little while before jumping into the conversation.

  8. #8
    Audio Enthusiast
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    The world of audio equipment is very emotional and subjective.

    There is no consensus on what sounds good and what does not.

    Many will judge equipment sound quality by the label on the front panel or the pricetag. Even before listening to the equipment.

    What I find amusing is that during blind A/B tests, most cannot tell the difference.

    What I also find fascinating, is that many people begin experiencing considerable loss of hearing perception beginning in their early 30s. With the iPod proliferation, you may see hearing degradation in our youth begininning sooner. My ENT physician told me many of her patients cannot even perceive sound above 15khz let alone judge its quality.

  9. #9
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    ....Whats up with all the people asking a question, and already saying that we wont like it!!?
    I don't like this thread so I'm not going to reply.

    People will be people. Humans are very strange creatures with many faults that defy explanation. That's why I'm glad not to be a member.

    Some people don't want to hear from people who disagree with them. Others feel that they are avoiding a fight but excluding the "others."

    Oh no! I replied! What's up with that?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Registered Member paul_pci's Avatar
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    I guess our reputation precedes us!

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing your opinions. I think that i am a straight forward person and speak my mind freely. You are all agreeing partly with the one problem i adressed here many times. The "audioreview standard package" is Paradigm, B&W, Axiom etc... and as soon as one person goes against the mass recomendation they get called an arrogant jerk.

    I would much rather get an opinion from a person who has a strong believe then a typical standard reply which is often made by those members who enjoy a celebrity style online life.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  12. #12
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Thanks for sharing your opinions. I think that i am a straight forward person and speak my mind freely. You are all agreeing partly with the one problem i adressed here many times. The "audioreview standard package" is Paradigm, B&W, Axiom etc... and as soon as one person goes against the mass recomendation they get called an arrogant jerk.

    I would much rather get an opinion from a person who has a strong believe then a typical standard reply which is often made by those members who enjoy a celebrity style online life.

    -Flo
    So how did I do? I've never listened to any Paradigm, B&W, or Axioms. But I would like to. And the B&W DVD they sent me was way cool. It even sounded great on my lil' Infinity's.

    I have one strong belief. That is that no hobby is worth loosing sleep over. That I'd rather joke around and be called a fool than to get upset about everything and feel like a fool for not enjoying myself.

    I know that we have different priorities as far as sound equipment. But we have fun anyhow. Hope we can keep swapping jokes.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  13. #13
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Thanks for sharing your opinions. I think that i am a straight forward person and speak my mind freely. You are all agreeing partly with the one problem i adressed here many times. The "audioreview standard package" is Paradigm, B&W, Axiom etc... and as soon as one person goes against the mass recomendation they get called an arrogant jerk.

    I would much rather get an opinion from a person who has a strong believe then a typical standard reply which is often made by those members who enjoy a celebrity style online life.

    -Flo
    Are not those brands the ones 98% of us can afford? Are not those brands easier to find then more costly brands? I would'nt go into a forum with anything most dont have. Kinda like being an outcast.
    Look & Listen

  14. #14
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    Are not those brands the ones 98% of us can afford? Are not those brands easier to find then more costly brands? I would'nt go into a forum with anything most dont have. Kinda like being an outcast.
    And I thought the point of this Forum is to share experiences, have fun, give advice and help other members and learn about other members systems. Am I wrong?
    Who wants to be part of the masses (98%) voluntarely anyway? How boring, pointless and mind numbing would this be if we only talk about the most popular best buy brands. Wide varied opinions is what makes this interesting. And it's almost certain that there are those who live an on-line celebrity lifestyle when in reality.................,well you know.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  15. #15
    Linear Guy
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    We need hobbies

    I have 3 hobbies. Fly-fishing, Oil painting and listening to great music. I am looking at retirement in about 5 years. Combined with all the pains and joys of family life, I know that I will have no problem finding things to do in retirement. Having these kind of interests is not only worthwhile, it is critical to properly transition yourself from the cube farm to the trout stream.

    The best feeling I have about the music/stereo hobby is that when I have friends over, they can see and hear my passion for sound reproduction. I'm not so sure they are complimentary when they leave, but when they are here, my gear blows them away.

    When I read some of the posts here, I can sense the passion. Some are so passionate about the gear that one wonders if they can still feel the music. Some are critical of what others can or cannot hear. When I read these things I think about being catholic or American citizenship. If you ask 20 people about the basic requirements for each you may get an unbelievable range of answers. even among the catholics.

  16. #16
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviethek
    I have 3 hobbies. Fly-fishing, Oil painting and listening to great music. I am looking at retirement in about 5 years. Combined with all the pains and joys of family life, I know that I will have no problem finding things to do in retirement. Having these kind of interests is not only worthwhile, it is critical to properly transition yourself from the cube farm to the trout stream.

    The best feeling I have about the music/stereo hobby is that when I have friends over, they can see and hear my passion for sound reproduction. I'm not so sure they are complimentary when they leave, but when they are here, my gear blows them away.

    When I read some of the posts here, I can sense the passion. Some are so passionate about the gear that one wonders if they can still feel the music. Some are critical of what others can or cannot hear. When I read these things I think about being catholic or American citizenship. If you ask 20 people about the basic requirements for each you may get an unbelievable range of answers. even among the catholics.
    A man with taste and depth. Very well said, Sir. Retirement. You have roughly 5 years on me. I, too will have no problem keeping busy.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  17. #17
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Is it fair and honest to only recommend the mass market equipment? Is it not fair to spread the word about Quality instead of Quantity and fair Price?

    Are panel speakers or horns only for snobs because they are not sold from online retailes or best buy for rock bottom prices with which no company can pay a fair sallery to their employees or buy quality parts from?

    I believe that every new members deserves better then the "audioreview standard package", this is a free for all site and the providers should not limit their new members to 4 choices. But in a way they do, the big names on here have a "standard package" that they recommend and any or all other opinions are put to an end by the use of "snob" "arrogant" etc. As usual the masses feel validated by it and join in without having any actual experience or idea what the fundamental discussion is about.

    I find this sad, and would hope that ALL members, but esp. the new ones look at more hidden brands that cannot afford to buy advertising on a big site or magazine. In todays world people need to live and this "cheaper is better" or "cheap is just as good" attitude wont help the small buisiness etc. and will not help to give you a better sound!


    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  18. #18
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I know that we have different priorities as far as sound equipment. But we have fun anyhow. Hope we can keep swapping jokes.
    Priorities and personal taste are all fine, and will not keep us from joking around ;-) As long as the facts remain facts and the faults are not drawn into pretty little pictures which serves as a baby cradle for those with no own way.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  19. #19
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Is it fair and honest to only recommend the mass market equipment? Is it not fair to spread the word about Quality instead of Quantity and fair Price?
    I think you're missing the point behind a lot of recommendations made at this website.
    There's nothing wrong with recommending mass market equipment. If someone asks a question about what $200 a/v receiver they should buy with Prol-logic II processing, you're pretty much limited to mass market. You seem incapable of grasping this concept.

    Quality doesn't mean expensive. It means doing the job it was designed to do well. $200 Sony receivers do the job, but fail enough to not be considered great quality. $200 Denon's tend to last a bit longer with fewer faults. To some, they even sound better than Sonys. Therefore higher quality. Understand?
    Recommending a $2100 Arcam receiver or $5000 worth of separates as a response to such a question would just be a stupid waste of time. There's a time and a place to make such recommendations, some people are smart enough to know when.

    Are panel speakers or horns only for snobs because they are not sold from online retailes or best buy for rock bottom prices with which no company can pay a fair sallery to their employees or buy quality parts from?
    Huh? Fair salary? Most of these Best Buy brands actually employ very few people and pay them well enough. They make their money by small profit margins and large volume, not a ridiculously unfair mark-up. But what does that have to do with recommending products?

    I believe that every new members deserves better then the "audioreview standard package", this is a free for all site and the providers should not limit their new members to 4 choices. But in a way they do, the big names on here have a "standard package" that they recommend and any or all other opinions are put to an end by the use of "snob" "arrogant" etc. As usual the masses feel validated by it and join in without having any actual experience or idea what the fundamental discussion is about.
    Here you go again. The evil "Big Names" are conspiring to promote the junky mass market brands like Paradigm, B&W, and Axiom. Nonsense. Is this any different that the "standard package" responses you give on panel speakers? You're not really that unique in that regard.

    You sound like broken record repeating the same crap about big names on this site who only recommend B&W, Paradigm, and Axiom. I dare you prove any so-called "big name" has only recommended those three brands, or that they've only ever recommended ANY BestBuy/mass market brand. You won't be able to and you know it.

    Nobody wishes to censor your recommendations. They just wish you had a bit more tact and relevance when making them. A lot of the so called "big names" here have recommended panel speakers, horns, small speaker companies, and other non-mainstream solutions. Comments like the ones you're making in this thread are out of touch with reality, and discredit the value of any advice you would give. You have a lot of audio knowledge you could share constructively, but instead you chose to employ a "mine is better than yours" attitude and approach. It appears you're trying to present yourself as some kind of audio martyr, when at the most, you're just another voice among many.

    I find this sad, and would hope that ALL members, but esp. the new ones look at more hidden brands that cannot afford to buy advertising on a big site or magazine. In todays world people need to live and this "cheaper is better" or "cheap is just as good" attitude wont help the small buisiness etc. and will not help to give you a better sound!
    That's BS and you know it. If I named a $5000 speaker, I'm sure you could name one for less than $5000 you thought sounded better. What's wrong with trying to get the best sound for the money? Do you make a habbit of buying the second best thing for the money? If you knew there was something better for cheaper, wouldn't you take advantage of that? Thought so.

    If I have $2000 to spend on speakers there's no way in hell I want the 3rd best speaker priced at $2000. And if the best speaker cost $1000, why the hell would I spend $2000 on a speaker just line somebody's pockets?

    Most of the recommendations here are presented as places to start listening, nothing more. I've only met a few people here that believe they've heard the best speaker possible and constantly push that to other people.

    If you're going to make accusations about this site or its members, at least have the balls to list names and examples that aren't pure bull**** made up for no other reason than to make yourself feel like the poor persecuted victim. If you can't back up what you say, don't say it.

  20. #20
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    And I thought the point of this Forum is to share experiences, have fun, give advice and help other members and learn about other members systems. Am I wrong?
    Who wants to be part of the masses (98%) voluntarely anyway? How boring, pointless and mind numbing would this be if we only talk about the most popular best buy brands. Wide varied opinions is what makes this interesting. And it's almost certain that there are those who live an on-line celebrity lifestyle when in reality.................,well you know.

    Peace

    Bernd
    Because part of the masses are the ones that can afford the most popular brands,whatever that means. Me, if i'm buying a 25K car,i dont read and study 50K cars. I'm not on a MB forum,i'm on a Altima forum.
    Look & Listen

  21. #21
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Priorities and personal taste are all fine, and will not keep us from joking around ;-) As long as the facts remain facts and the faults are not drawn into pretty little pictures which serves as a baby cradle for those with no own way.

    -Flo
    Not sure I follow this. But I'll try not to draw anymore pictures.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  22. #22
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    Because part of the masses are the ones that can afford the most popular brands,whatever that means. Me, if i'm buying a 25K car,i dont read and study 50K cars. I'm not on a MB forum,i'm on a Altima forum.
    Sure, but take your budget (however large that is) and put some effort in the selection process. There are many small manufacturers worth checking out, but that takes effort. Also very often you don't find these products reviewed since they seldom place big ads.

    And I guess I am different from you there. If I would be in the market for the said car I sure would like to know how that manufacturers 50K car performes and how it is different from what I am interested in. And is any technology from the top model filtering down? Anybody can produce a cost no object superb product. The hard part is to capture some of that performance with a given budget. And some do it better then others and some just cheat (review sample full of expensive components but the production model scaled down in quality - it happens) or don't care.
    It is very easy to buy a magazine and pick the latest 5* winners and walk into an Audio chain store and buy the whole thing in one go.
    I will stand by that, that one can do a lot better with those funds.The choice in the more reasonable priced band of the audio market is vast. So no need to follow the herd. Use your ears and put some effort into it and believe me you will be rewarded.

    Example: My last Speaker purchase comes in three different price bands. I had it explained to me where the money goes and where the differences lay - and then I listened and came up with a decision that suited me and me alone. That is the way to buy. Of course it matters how serious you are about this pastime and how much importance is placed on sound quality and pride of ownership.
    I welcome diversity and much rather read about some other members golden find, be that new,second hand or vintage, but please show some imagination.

    Have a good weekend

    Bernd

    P.S. What is an MB or Altima Forum? Please tell.
    Last edited by Bernd; 03-24-2006 at 06:23 AM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  23. #23
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    lots of words
    Very, very well said and from all my reading I'd say I agree with it completely.

    Sometimes it seems almost embarrassing to have Axioms, I've had them for a couple years, so before they entered the "standard recommendations package." I bought them to replace some giant Technics floorstanders when I was in college and since then I've been making significant changes to the rest of my stereo system. I'm finally down to now picking/finding the turntable I want and spending perhaps a considerable sum of money (for me, as a grad student) on one. Perhaps around $500 or a bit more.

    But I'm not embarrassed with the Axioms. I listened to a lot when I was shopping, and I tried a few things and the Axioms sounded great to me given the money I had available to spend. Sure, I could spend $1000 on better speakers but I could also spend $1000 on speakers that aren't as good for my uses. There are still some missing components that make my system less than ideal and I hope to button some of that up this summer.

    I'm more interested in enjoying my music than worrying about what an elitist with tens of thousands of dollars of equipment is saying about it (or his equipment). I truly wonder where the enjoyment of music ends and the fetichism of equipment begins. I've seen the same thing in photography, when people lose the interest to discuss and critique photographs and have to spend more time fighting and arguing over who makes the better camera or lens or scanner. A certain amount of that kind of debate is healthy, but for some it's fanatical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Example: My last Speaker purchase comes in three different price bands. I had it explained to me where the money goes and where the differences lay - and then I listened and came up with a decision that suited me and me alone. That is the way to buy. Of course it matters how serious you are about this pastime and how much importance is placed on sound quality and pride of ownership.
    I welcome diversity and much rather read about some other members golden find, be that new,second hand or vintage, but please show some imagination.
    I did a similar thing. I considered a few price brackets and investigated my options.

    I agree that diversity is very important, however there's a limit to how diverse every discussion can get before some of the suggestions just come across simply absurd. If someone's looking to spend $2000 on speakers, chances are $20k speakers aren't an option. However if there's a set of $2300 speakers that shares some design and technology with a $20k speaker that's worth mentioning. Don't just barf up info and specs on that $20k speaker, but give it some relevance by pointing out how that speaker in some small way could be yours. It sounds cheesy, but you'll come across as less of a snob and more helpful because you're providing relevant and realistic suggestions to someone.
    Last edited by emorphien; 03-24-2006 at 11:50 AM.

  24. #24
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Very well said. And as I have mentioned before it is about the enjoyment of music. And nobody should feel uneasy about what they own. We all started out somewhere, but this hobby is full of pitfalls and sharlatans.
    I know what you mean about Photography. I am also interested, in a small way, in that and you're right about the loss of appreciation of a great photograph but the drooling over a Leica or Hasselblad.

    It just get's sometimes tideous when the same standard equipment gets recommended over and over again. I happen to like what I own and nobody else needs to like it.When you work hard for something you should be rightly proud of your purchase, but as said before take a good look around of what else is available.

    Also in answer to your point about the lower priced products in a range. The ART Emotion is the top of ARTs line up and the start is a slim floorstander called Stilleto. This speaker has experienced the same research as the big gun (the tweeter is based on the previous top of the range model "The Impression"), and in my humble opinion it wipes the floor with any sub
    1000.00 speaker that I have heard. It is trully magical, images like you wouldn't believe with incredible dynamics, just a bit light on the bass, but that is to be expected.

    Peace

    Bernd
    Last edited by Bernd; 03-24-2006 at 11:49 PM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  25. #25
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    MB=Mercedes Bend
    Altima= Nissan Altima
    Both are cars.
    Look & Listen

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