State of the Union

[dean_martin]

I'm not sure whether it's me or what, but when Pres. Bush addresses some of his pet themes he gets this look on his face like he's just gotten away with something. VP Cheney's smirk (which looks like an evil grin) in the background doesn't help either. It's not every controversial topic, but there are a select few on which he looks like he doesn't really believe the reasons or grounds for taking the position he's taking.

Do you remember the Clinton nose-touching analyses? Supposedly, these preeminent psychologists examined his facial expressions, body language and voice inflections during several speeches/press conferences and were able to determine when he was lying based on non-verbal cues.

I guess the democrats just aren't innovative/creative/devious enough to sponsor such a study on Pres. Bush.

I also remember when the national debt and budget deficits were huge moral topics addressed by many of the moral majority. From the "where are they now" files - James Dobson's outing Sponge Bob and I'm not sure what Falwell and the John Birch Society are up to. But reducing the national debt takes money out of the pockets of the Rockefellers and other international bankers. I guess we're taking them to raise.

I got a chill when Pres. Bush called out Iran. Are we heading there next?

There were some positives in the speech. Just thought I would stir things up a bit.

[Justlisten2]

I'm not sure whether it's me or what, but when Pres. Bush addresses some of his pet themes he gets this look on his face like he's just gotten away with something. VP Cheney's smirk (which looks like an evil grin) in the background doesn't help either. It's not every controversial topic, but there are a select few on which he looks like he doesn't really believe the reasons or grounds for taking the position he's taking.

He just can't believe people would buy what he's saying.
He's getting away with murder and loots of money. I'd have a funny smile too.

I got a chill when Pres. Bush called out Iran. Are we heading there next?

I get a chill anytime he opens his mouth.
If not Iran, Korea or some other country to exploit.
Gotta keep Halliburton stock up.
After all, one must have one's priorities straight.

[jeskibuff]

He just can't believe people would buy what he's saying.

He's getting away with murder and loots of money. I'd have a funny smile too.

I get a chill anytime he opens his mouth.

If not Iran, Korea or some other country to exploit.

Gotta keep Halliburton stock up.

Keep those anti-Bush fantasies coming! We saw how great those worked for Democrats; the likes of moveon.org, Michael Mooron, Soros, Garofalo, etc. last November!


Once the Democratic Party finds its way out of this insane stupidity it's currently wallowing in, maybe they'll regain some credibility, but I doubt that's going to happen. From what I see out of Teddy Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, John F'n Kerry and other of the "liberal intelligensia", it's apparent that Democrats haven't learned their lesson very well. Good luck on those future elections!

[Justlisten2]

Keep those anti-Bush fantasies coming! We saw how great those worked for Democrats; the likes of moveon.org, Michael Mooron, Soros, Garofalo, etc. last November!


Once the Democratic Party finds its way out of this insane stupidity it's currently wallowing in, maybe they'll regain some credibility, but I doubt that's going to happen. From what I see out of Teddy Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, John F'n Kerry and other of the "liberal intelligensia", it's apparent that Democrats haven't learned their lesson very well. Good luck on those future elections!

Don't worry, I don't think those Democratic clowns are worth voting for either. That's why I wear a black armband when voting. I know a clown or a crook will be running the country.
The Republican's do a remarkable job of controlling the media, thereby controlling what people think. That last minute tape showing Bin Laden two days before the election was a brilliant tactical manuver. As is the control they have over the media in Iraq, keeping the war off tv so it won't become another Vietnam. The evil empire does an admirable job of fooling the people. It's not hard really, as most of the sheep are easily fooled.

I know folks who aren't rich, but voted Republican anyway. Because 'them Democrats are going to take our guns away.' 'The Dems will kill all the babies', or 'Bush will protect us'. Sheesh, yeah right, as if. He didn't protect us on 9/11, what makes him the 'safety' prez?
I laugh when I see people who've lost their jobs in the Bush economy, vote for him so they can keep their guns safe!!! ROTFLMAO!!!

People are such dumb a$$', and the Republicans do a magnificent job of controlling simple minds. You are either wealthy, or a prime example.

[jeskibuff]

Your cluelessness and ignorance still astounds me, given the fact that you should have gotten a harsh wake-up call to reality last November. It worried me last year when I saw that so many idiots like you blindly followed the moronic leadership of people like Soros and Mooron. But worry no more, as the voice of reason trounced the overamplified voices of fools back then. The silent majority was more powerful than the loudmouthed minority.

Media in the hands of conservatives? Surely you live in fantasyland. How much more proof than Rathergate do you need? Nevermind...no matter what proof is offered, you will ignore it, for you are an ignorant fool of the nth degree.

Yup...continue to spout your idiot theories. We laugh at you now. We have learned that you have no ability to reason, so we no longer want to converse with you. Your conversation has little to no value.

You really have two choices. 1) Continue your current path, in which you and your fellow idiots will continue the downward spiral into insignificance or 2) Take a cold shower in the waters of reality and begin to understand that no one takes an idiot seriously. You don't have credibility. Your theories don't hold water. You have an inability or resistance to grasping truth, probably based on your overwhelming desire to clutch onto your own warped version of reality and to forward your own selfish agenda. Change your ways, get with the program, or continue to be a loser.

It's your choice, but sadly I know that there's little in this world that will cause you to make the wise choice.

Up until recently the U.S. has been a 2-party political system: Democrats and Republicans. People complained that there was no opportunity for others (Reform Party, etc.) to compete. Congratulations! The Dumbocrats have just transformed the U.S. into a 1-party system, as the Dumbocrats have shown that they are absolutely NO COMPETITION and offer no value beyond entertainment. I believe in the value of competition to enhance a product (in this case, political debate), so am somewhat sad that Democrats have self-destructed in this way. Still, better to have them marginalized than to have any sway in our government, given their moronic belief system and total lack of ethics.

[dean_martin]

Your cluelessness and ignorance still astounds me, given the fact that you should have gotten a harsh wake-up call to reality last November. It worried me last year when I saw that so many idiots like you blindly followed the moronic leadership of people like Soros and Mooron. But worry no more, as the voice of reason trounced the overamplified voices of fools back then. The silent majority was more powerful than the loudmouthed minority.

Media in the hands of conservatives? Surely you live in fantasyland. How much more proof than Rathergate do you need? Nevermind...no matter what proof is offered, you will ignore it, for you are an ignorant fool of the nth degree.

Yup...continue to spout your idiot theories. We laugh at you now. We have learned that you have no ability to reason, so we no longer want to converse with you. Your conversation has little to no value.

You really have two choices. 1) Continue your current path, in which you and your fellow idiots will continue the downward spiral into insignificance or 2) Take a cold shower in the waters of reality and begin to understand that no one takes an idiot seriously. You don't have credibility. Your theories don't hold water. You have an inability or resistance to grasping truth, probably based on your overwhelming desire to clutch onto your own warped version of reality and to forward your own selfish agenda. Change your ways, get with the program, or continue to be a loser.

It's your choice, but sadly I know that there's little in this world that will cause you to make the wise choice.

Up until recently the U.S. has been a 2-party political system: Democrats and Republicans. People complained that there was no opportunity for others (Reform Party, etc.) to compete. Congratulations! The Dumbocrats have just transformed the U.S. into a 1-party system, as the Dumbocrats have shown that they are absolutely NO COMPETITION and offer no value beyond entertainment. I believe in the value of competition to enhance a product (in this case, political debate), so am somewhat sad that Democrats have self-destructed in this way. Still, better to have them marginalized than to have any sway in our government, given their moronic belief system and total lack of ethics.

I really don't understand your nastiness. At least Rove and the Bush cronies keep theirs under the table and find creative and not-so-vulgar ways to get what they want. I don't think even the Repubs would want YOU out front as their spokesperson or poster boy. They're much more savvy and devious. We can see/hear you coming from a mile away.

Now that the election is over, it seems that you would tone down your rhetoric. Geez, is Monica Lewinski your sister? Did you have a relative at the Koresh compound? Did you have to register the last firearm you purchased? Did a minority get your job? Am I getting warmer?

[dean_martin]

OK, ok, now that I've read the post to which you were responding, Jeskibuff, I guess Justlisten2 did have it coming to him...he did for all intents and purposes call you a dumba$$ - a simple minded one no less.

[JeffKnob]

Your cluelessness and ignorance still astounds me, given the fact that you should have gotten a harsh wake-up call to reality last November. It worried me last year when I saw that so many idiots like you blindly followed the moronic leadership of people like Soros and Mooron. But worry no more, as the voice of reason trounced the overamplified voices of fools back then. The silent majority was more powerful than the loudmouthed minority.

Media in the hands of conservatives? Surely you live in fantasyland. How much more proof than Rathergate do you need? Nevermind...no matter what proof is offered, you will ignore it, for you are an ignorant fool of the nth degree.

Yup...continue to spout your idiot theories. We laugh at you now. We have learned that you have no ability to reason, so we no longer want to converse with you. Your conversation has little to no value.

You really have two choices. 1) Continue your current path, in which you and your fellow idiots will continue the downward spiral into insignificance or 2) Take a cold shower in the waters of reality and begin to understand that no one takes an idiot seriously. You don't have credibility. Your theories don't hold water. You have an inability or resistance to grasping truth, probably based on your overwhelming desire to clutch onto your own warped version of reality and to forward your own selfish agenda. Change your ways, get with the program, or continue to be a loser.

It's your choice, but sadly I know that there's little in this world that will cause you to make the wise choice.

Up until recently the U.S. has been a 2-party political system: Democrats and Republicans. People complained that there was no opportunity for others (Reform Party, etc.) to compete. Congratulations! The Dumbocrats have just transformed the U.S. into a 1-party system, as the Dumbocrats have shown that they are absolutely NO COMPETITION and offer no value beyond entertainment. I believe in the value of competition to enhance a product (in this case, political debate), so am somewhat sad that Democrats have self-destructed in this way. Still, better to have them marginalized than to have any sway in our government, given their moronic belief system and total lack of ethics.

So by you blindly accepting whatever Bush is telling you and every policy he puts on the table, what would that make you? That would make you clueless and ignorant in my opinion. Try opening up your mind to new things other than what our president tells you. I have met many people that voted for Bush that have told me they wish they had done more research and had gotten the facts about what is going on. They said they would have voted differently, maybe not for a Democrat but not for Bush.

We need a president that will try to represent our whole country, not just the wealthy, white, Christian Fundamentalists. I am Christian but I don't get my jollies by knowing we are attacking other countries. I don't see it as right to condemn homosexuals. I don't see it as right to cut environmental programs. I don't see it as right to be cutting taxes for the rich. They aren't the ones that are struggling to find where their next meal is coming from. Wages in this country are going down and corporate profits are going up. This has happened a lot in the last four years. So much for him being a moral president. I guess it depends on what your morals are.

Bush is just too extreme for me. I really think that some of his ideas are good ones on the surface but his plans to fix them are way too extreme and don't actually solve the real problem.

I realize that this isn't going to affect how you feel about politics in this country. I know you don't care about my views. You have your views and they will stay the same no matter what happens. No body will every enlighten you because aren't willing to accept any other ideas. Go ahead and ignore what I wrote because I am not trying to change your mind. This was mostly for me to get this off my chest.

[jeskibuff]

I really don't understand your nastiness.

It's only a tit-for-tat response to Justlisten2's nastiness, which I noticed you "conveniently" overlooked.

May I remind you?

People are such dumb a$$', and the Republicans do a magnificent job of controlling simple minds. You are either wealthy, or a prime example.

Sorry, but the winking smiley doesn't diminish the implication that I have a simple mind (as I'm not especially wealthy). In that statement is also an implication that my mind is controlled and that I am one of the "dumb a$$es". I consider those pretty nasty remarks and I responded in kind. Are you his mommy that overlooks his faults and only sees fault in what others do? Apparently so. I won't demand an apology though...this is the kind of hypocrisy that we have come to expect from liberals. It's seemingly ingrained into your nature.

I don't think even the Repubs would want YOU out front as their spokesperson or poster boy. They're much more savvy and devious. We can see/hear you coming from a mile away.

That's one of the major benefits of NOT being a spokesperson. I don't have to mettle my words; I can call things PRECISELY the way I sees 'em! You SHOULD be able to see me coming from a mile away...that's my intention! I don't try to hide the fact that I see an ingoranus* when I see one.

Now that the election is over, it seems that you would tone down your rhetoric.

MY rhetoric?? Here's some examples of rhetoric for you:

when Pres. Bush addresses some of his pet themes he gets this look on his face like he's just gotten away with something.

He just can't believe people would buy what he's saying. He's getting away with murder and loots of money. I'd have a funny smile too.... I get a chill anytime he opens his mouth...If not Iran, Korea or some other country to exploit...Gotta keep Halliburton stock up...After all, one must have one's priorities straight...The Republican's do a remarkable job of controlling the media, thereby controlling what people think. That last minute tape showing Bin Laden two days before the election was a brilliant tactical manuver...The evil empire does an admirable job of fooling the people. It's not hard really, as most of the sheep are easily fooled....He didn't protect us on 9/11, what makes him the 'safety' prez?

All this is ignorant stupidity based on what you WANT to believe, without any basis in reality. I'd call that rhetoric!

is Monica Lewinski your sister?

She told you I was??? Boy, that girl's got a big mouth!

Did you have a relative at the Koresh compound?

Would it burn you if I told you "no"??

Did you have to register the last firearm you purchased?

I don't own ANY firearms. Blows that theory out of the water, eh?

Did a minority get your job?

No...I got my job!

Am I getting warmer?

Why yes, yes you are. Now go change your pants and don't pee in them next time.

OK, ok, now that I've read the post to which you were responding, Jeskibuff, I guess Justlisten2 did have it coming to him

And I just read this "apology" after writing all of the above retorts. But darn, too late to change it now...I just hit the "submit reply" button!

So by you blindly accepting whatever Bush is telling you and every policy he puts on the table, what would that make you?

Where do you get this "blindly accepting" business from? I measure Bush's decisions against good old common sense. They fare pretty good, whereas the crapola spouted by the Dumbocrats makes so little common sense. So far Bush's policies win and Dumbocrats' fears lose. Recall the flack several years ago about Bush trashing the economy. Take a look at the growing economy now. Look at millions of people now freed from tyranny in Afghanistan and Iraq. Look at the millions of happy Iraqis who braved death threats to exercise their right to vote. If Dumbocrats had their way, Saddam would still be killing Iraqis at whim! If I listened to Dumbocrats, I would've believed that fake memos really were authentic, despite OBVIOUS flaws. If I listened to Dumbocrats, I would've voted for a liar, fraud and traitor to this United States.

That would make you clueless and ignorant in my opinion.

You know what they say about opinions.

Try opening up your mind to new things other than what our president tells you.

Put out something worthwhile - something with substance and I'll check it out. So far, liberals haven't offered anything besides the Anybody But Bush stupidity. All their theories and complaints ring hollow.

I have met many people that voted for Bush that have told me they wish they had done more research and had gotten the facts about what is going on.

The FACTS? That's laughable? What facts? How Bush planted explosives in the WTC towers? How Bush fired a missile into the Pentagon? How Bush is really an alien reptile in disguise? Tell your friends to lay off the dope and hang out with more respectable people.

We need a president that will try to represent our whole country, not just the wealthy, white, Christian Fundamentalists.

If half of the country weren't so idiotically hateful of the man, they'd find he has got their best interests at heart. No matter WHAT Bush does, these people will hate him. If he tightens security to prevent attacks, liberals accuse him of trampling on their freedoms and fearmongering. If he didn't take such steps and an attack did occur, the same people would accuse him of not taking the proper precautions to protect the citizenry. We've learned to just ignore and ridicule these half-wits. It's called "marginalization". Get used to it.

I am Christian but I don't get my jollies by knowing we are attacking other countries.

And you're pretty dumb to think that those of us who do support the Iraq war do get our "jollies" from wartime destruction. You don't seem to have the common sense to realize that there are unsavory steps necessary in preventing even greater destruction. You would probably have opposed our Normandy Beach invasion because you didn't have the foresight to see the kind of world that would evolve with Hitler controlling it.

I don't see it as right to condemn homosexuals.

And just who said it is? Is GWB sending homos to the gas chamber? Give me a link to the article...I must've missed it.

Wages in this country are going down and corporate profits are going up. This has happened a lot in the last four years.

I've got news for you...this has been going on for more than four years, but you feel the necessity to blame Bush for the ills of the world. I understand. Just take a class in economics and get an education before making rash accusations. Next time you won't come across as such a dunderhead on the topic.

I really think that some of his ideas are good ones on the surface but his plans to fix them are way too extreme and don't actually solve the real problem.

Any concrete examples here, or just farfetched postulation? It seems like his plan to improve the economy worked. It seems that the plan to oust dangerous tyrants is going as well as can be expected. Millions of people are now on their way to living lives in freedom, but all the Dumbocrats (like Kerry, Kennedy and Boxer) are only capable of criticism. "We could've done it better", Kerry says. What a buffoon. We dodged a bullet when that idiot lost in November!

You have your views and they will stay the same no matter what happens. No body will every enlighten you because aren't willing to accept any other ideas.

Again...give me something of substance to chew on and I will consider it. So far, you've only presented vacant postulation...NOTHING OF WORTH! All your arguments are too easy to shoot down with logic and reason. You have no argument...no basis for changing my mind. I will listen to reason and common sense...you offer neither. Like Kerry, you're only capable of assigning blame...you offer no viable solutions.

[JeffKnob]

logic and reason

I haven't seen any logic and reason yet in your statement.

Maybe I do need to take some more economics classes but it certainly doesn't require a class to see that behind the smoke and mirrors the economy isn't doing well.

It seems as though you need to go back to elementary school to learn that to have an adult conversation it doesn't require you to use childish names for groups or ideas.

You obviously have some growing up to do. In the mean time, why don't you take some economics classes and maybe some in ethics.

About me not providing examples of all my points, I wasn't trying to change your mind. I also don't want to spend my time citing examples of my points that are easily found in the news and the internet. There are clear examples of Bush's downfalls in the headlines everyday. My time is precious. Stating obvious facts to someone unwilling to listen and consider them are a waste of my time.

[dean_martin]

It's only a tit-for-tat response to Justlisten2's nastiness, which I noticed you "conveniently" overlooked.

May I remind you?

Sorry, but the winking smiley doesn't diminish the implication that I have a simple mind (as I'm not especially wealthy). In that statement is also an implication that my mind is controlled and that I am one of the "dumb a$$es". I consider those pretty nasty remarks and I responded in kind. Are you his mommy that overlooks his faults and only sees fault in what others do? Apparently so. I won't demand an apology though...this is the kind of hypocrisy that we have come to expect from liberals. It's seemingly ingrained into your nature.

That's one of the major benefits of NOT being a spokesperson. I don't have to mettle my words; I can call things PRECISELY the way I sees 'em! You SHOULD be able to see me coming from a mile away...that's my intention! I don't try to hide the fact that I see an ingoranus* when I see one.


MY rhetoric?? Here's some examples of rhetoric for you:




All this is ignorant stupidity based on what you WANT to believe, without any basis in reality. I'd call that rhetoric!


She told you I was??? Boy, that girl's got a big mouth!


Would it burn you if I told you "no"??


I don't own ANY firearms. Blows that theory out of the water, eh?


No...I got my job!


Why yes, yes you are. Now go change your pants and don't pee in them next time.


And I just read this "apology" after writing all of the above retorts. But darn, too late to change it now...I just hit the "submit reply" button!


Where do you get this "blindly accepting" business from? I measure Bush's decisions against good old common sense. They fare pretty good, whereas the crapola spouted by the Dumbocrats makes so little common sense. So far Bush's policies win and Dumbocrats' fears lose. Recall the flack several years ago about Bush trashing the economy. Take a look at the growing economy now. Look at millions of people now freed from tyranny in Afghanistan and Iraq. Look at the millions of happy Iraqis who braved death threats to exercise their right to vote. If Dumbocrats had their way, Saddam would still be killing Iraqis at whim! If I listened to Dumbocrats, I would've believed that fake memos really were authentic, despite OBVIOUS flaws. If I listened to Dumbocrats, I would've voted for a liar, fraud and traitor to this United States.

You know what they say about opinions.

Put out something worthwhile - something with substance and I'll check it out. So far, liberals haven't offered anything besides the Anybody But Bush stupidity. All their theories and complaints ring hollow.

The FACTS? That's laughable? What facts? How Bush planted explosives in the WTC towers? How Bush fired a missile into the Pentagon? How Bush is really an alien reptile in disguise? Tell your friends to lay off the dope and hang out with more respectable people.


If half of the country weren't so idiotically hateful of the man, they'd find he has got their best interests at heart. No matter WHAT Bush does, these people will hate him. If he tightens security to prevent attacks, liberals accuse him of trampling on their freedoms and fearmongering. If he didn't take such steps and an attack did occur, the same people would accuse him of not taking the proper precautions to protect the citizenry. We've learned to just ignore and ridicule these half-wits. It's called "marginalization". Get used to it.

And you're pretty dumb to think that those of us who do support the Iraq war do get our "jollies" from wartime destruction. You don't seem to have the common sense to realize that there are unsavory steps necessary in preventing even greater destruction. You would probably have opposed our Normandy Beach invasion because you didn't have the foresight to see the kind of world that would evolve with Hitler controlling it.

And just who said it is? Is GWB sending homos to the gas chamber? Give me a link to the article...I must've missed it.

I've got news for you...this has been going on for more than four years, but you feel the necessity to blame Bush for the ills of the world. I understand. Just take a class in economics and get an education before making rash accusations. Next time you won't come across as such a dunderhead on the topic.

Any concrete examples here, or just farfetched postulation? It seems like his plan to improve the economy worked. It seems that the plan to oust dangerous tyrants is going as well as can be expected. Millions of people are now on their way to living lives in freedom, but all the Dumbocrats (like Kerry, Kennedy and Boxer) are only capable of criticism. "We could've done it better", Kerry says. What a buffoon. We dodged a bullet when that idiot lost in November!

Again...give me something of substance to chew on and I will consider it. So far, you've only presented vacant postulation...NOTHING OF WORTH! All your arguments are too easy to shoot down with logic and reason. You have no argument...no basis for changing my mind. I will listen to reason and common sense...you offer neither. Like Kerry, you're only capable of assigning blame...you offer no viable solutions.

You've been busy! My original post merely expressed my observation that Bush takes some positions without conviction as evidenced by his non-verbal expressions. He's human after all and there are certain things that are common to the vast majority of us, such as the inability to say something convincingly when one does not believe or cannot support his position. As I pointed out, I remember stories of analyses of Clinton's non-verbal behavior and how certain behaviors were indicative of lying and low and behold they were RIGHT on the sex denial matter. If I remember correctly, these analysts pointed to Clinton's nose-touching behavior. This has nothing at all to do with politics, but rather human behavior. Why he would say something he doesn't believe is political.

The facts, statistics, etc. that I've seen (which are practically all of them this time around and those from the mid 80's when this last came up) on our civil justice system do not support Bush's proposals for Federalising medical negligence cases and all class action lawsuits. The Federal judges don't want this, the people don't need this and it is an attack on our rights to trial by jury under the U.S. Constitution and most, if not all, state constitutions. I've seen Bush's sheepish smile after throwing around the Roveisms "junk lawsuits", "lawsuit lottery", "jackpot justice". HE knows he's attacking the dems' strongest supporters - trial lawyers. HE knows that the figures he's relied on have been refuted by the GAO. Man, you can see it on his face! As for Cheney, there are only certain topics that cause him to get that smirk on his face - tort reform and Haliburton and now that the election is over, he won't have to confront the Haliburton topic. Watch the tape of the State of the Union address and watch their expressions during the "junk lawsuit" parts of the speech as compared to other parts where you can tell Bush believes in what he's saying, e.g., spreading liberty.

It's like everything in society. We here about the extremes like MacDonald's being sued because someone's overweight. Well, do you think the civil justice system came into being yesterday? There are rules that deal with meritless lawsuits swiftly. But, you don't make it harder for the majority of cases to go to court just so you can weed out that small percentage. The statistics show that the majority of cases in both the Federal and state systems right now are contract or other disputes initiated by or between businesses. If we keep eroding our rights to have our day in court, court will be only for the elite - those who can afford it.

Do the facial expressions that I observed prove anything? No, but I was curious as to whether anyone else noticed them. (I also think he has Iran in his sights.)

I do agree with Bush's basic premise that if you bring liberty and freedom to the places of oppression where terrorism breeds, terror won't be able to hold out. (I'm sure it's been said more eloquently, but it's been a long Monday.) But, I also think it's healthy to debate where these hotbeds of terrorism and oppression are. You're going to have to accept the fact that there will always be those who oppose acts of aggression even after being attacked. I don't think even you would go into an Amish community calling everyone clueless and ignorant. The debate should be how aggressively we act on this premise. Do we invade Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, African nations, etc.? There are others besides Saddam who kill their own people on a whim. What's the criteria for overthrowing a tyrant? My point is that the Iraq debate was/is a legitimate one no matter what side you're on. I believe that anytime our troops are exposed to harm there should be an open debate. If the President has the authority to act with force, a debate won't spoil the element of surprise, it won't intefere with military operations once underway and this idea that debate displays weakness is BS because it's the ability of the people to question the authority and decisions of those in power that makes us strong.

Also, I think the majority of dems believe that going into Afghanistan was the right thing to do.

BTW, I don't ascribe to any of those so-called facts you mentioned. I've known some right-wing extremists who ascribe to much more bizarre things. You must be located near a pocket of whackos. I also think Rather and CBS News have lost credibility with the American people including dems. It's a shame that this occurred at a "major network" in the "mainstream media," but it goes to show you that you can't get away with some things in our society.

I have no personal memory of this but I don't think we were in that big of a hurry to stop Hitler. We were isolationists at the time and not ready to fight overseas, but an attack woke us up.

IMO, your assessment of the economy is optimistic. It's still a little early to tell whether Bush's economic plans have "worked" because his plans are so closely tied to the expense of war. It's not like WWII when war meant that everyone who wasn't deployed went to work for the war effort. In other words, only small pockets of the economy are benefitting from this war and it's not enough to carry the costs. The only strong segment of the economy is housing. This has positive ramifications in other areas besides economics, but it also means that more Americans are going into debt. We're buying more on credit than we are with cash. Retail sales at Christmas didn't get as high as expected. We have less disposable income. The dollar doesn't buy as much as it did 3-4 years ago. Interest rates favor borrowing rather than saving. The baby boomer generation will be the last generation to benefit from social security as we know it, but it's the generation that immediately follows them that needs it the most (due to an unusually high debt to income ratio and low interest rates). The Bush plan promotes the "get as much as you can now" philosophy which tends to favor those who already have it.

[jeskibuff]

I haven't seen any logic and reason yet in your statement.

That's perfectly understandable. You have to know what you're looking for when you search for something. Sorry, but I can't draw you any pictures.

Maybe I do need to take some more economics classes but it certainly doesn't require a class to see that behind the smoke and mirrors the economy isn't doing well.

What planet do you come from? EVERY indication shows the economy has improved tremendously since the devastation caused by Clinton's recession, the 9/11 attacks and such things as the corporate scandals.

It seems as though you need to go back to elementary school to learn that to have an adult conversation it doesn't require you to use childish names for groups or ideas.

There's nothing childish in using the appropriate terms when necessary. Kerry, Boxer, Rather, Mooron are all VERY deserving of the adjective "idiot". The ABB hatred, bozo conspiracy theories and false accusations against Bush all deserved to be labelled as idiotic because THEY ARE IDIOTIC.

You obviously have some growing up to do. In the mean time, why don't you take some economics classes and maybe some in ethics.

You must first demonstrate that I have a deficiency in my understanding of economics and that I have some problem with ethics. You have failed miserably in both of those missions. There is no need for me to heed your worthless advice.

About me not providing examples of all my points, I wasn't trying to change your mind.

So THAT'S it??? You weren't trying??? Will you tell me next time when you ARE trying?? I bet I won't be able to tell the difference.

I also don't want to spend my time citing examples of my points that are easily found in the news and the internet. There are clear examples of Bush's downfalls in the headlines everyday.

Yeah, I've seen plenty of these allegations you refer to. I read about these memos that Rather dug up. I read how Bush is really after the oil of Iraq. Listen JeffKnob, just because some whacko publishes some drug-induced theory that claims GWB is evil personified doesn't mean it should be taken seriously. There are so MANY holes in the vitriol spewed by liberals and there are many such liberals who write such crap in our media. Don't believe everything you see/read.

Stating obvious facts to someone unwilling to listen and consider them are a waste of my time.

Your "obvious facts" are unfounded allegations. Learn to recognize the difference between the two and maybe someone will listen to what you have to say.

[JeffKnob]

It is interesting to see that you are assuming that I am believing everything the democrats say is true. I watch the news everyday and read about current events on the internet as well. Are there any sources that you find to have all the answers to our country? Fox News?

Maybe you could stop believing the Neocon propoganda so blindly. Maybe open up your mind to the fact that politics is flawed and not that just the liberals are flawed. I feel that you are just way to extreme to the "right". Do you have some sort of allegiance to the republicans? Are you Bush's illegitamate son? Is Bush your savior? (Those last two comments were ment as a smarta$$ joke) You have a problem with people blindly believing people like Michael Moore or the extreme left. I can't blame you. I have a problem with people believing the Neocons or the exteme right blindly.

I wish there was a way for us to get facts about our nation that is completely unbiased.

[piece-it pete]

I'm not sure whether it's me or what, but when Pres. Bush addresses some of his pet themes he gets this look on his face like he's just gotten away with something. VP Cheney's smirk (which looks like an evil grin) in the background doesn't help either. It's not every controversial topic, but there are a select few on which he looks like he doesn't really believe the reasons or grounds for taking the position he's taking.

Do you remember the Clinton nose-touching analyses? Supposedly, these preeminent psychologists examined his facial expressions, body language and voice inflections during several speeches/press conferences and were able to determine when he was lying based on non-verbal cues.

I guess the democrats just aren't innovative/creative/devious enough to sponsor such a study on Pres. Bush.

I also remember when the national debt and budget deficits were huge moral topics addressed by many of the moral majority. From the "where are they now" files - James Dobson's outing Sponge Bob and I'm not sure what Falwell and the John Birch Society are up to. But reducing the national debt takes money out of the pockets of the Rockefellers and other international bankers. I guess we're taking them to raise.

I got a chill when Pres. Bush called out Iran. Are we heading there next?

There were some positives in the speech. Just thought I would stir things up a bit.

Hey you've succeeded lol !

I always watch these speeches, though I'm not sure why anymore - "Our State of the Union is [great/getting better], we [party in power] rule, you drool. Here's why...".

Perhaps I'm getting cynical.

I don't go much by appearance, Clinton sure looked like he understood my pain - but the promised tax cuts never came . Lincoln wouldn't be electable now. And I'm sure the Dems have folks on that giveaway thing, yep.

Bush spoke well, I'd rate it VG (according to Goldmine standards ). That's unusual IMO. The GOP rank-and-filers LOVE him right now (He's better than Reagan!!) but I feel that, now that the GOP has become a "big government" party, the true conservatives are going to end up being just a leetle bit ticked, as actually winning elections is important to the parties (except for the commies and greens, oh yeah and LaRouche lol). Neocons are very powerful now.

See how managamous (sp) I am. I didn't include Democrats in that "winning elections" statement :lmao: ! But that's 'cause they don't belong in that group, as evidenced by how much they've been talking values lately. We'll see how well they sell it.

The real success here is how Bush managed to setup and underline the vote in Iraq. 1st with the inaugural (we are for freedom), then the vote (true vindication - succeed or fail those Iraqis will never forget it), then the State speech. Excellent, true planning, grand strategy. Superb, and the rest of the world knows it.

Which leads to Iran. I'd much rather scare them into compliance than have to fight, and boy should they be scared. And they are. Or stupid - look at Saddam. N. Korea, Syria, etc, they SHOULD think they're "on the list". Far, far better then sending our kids in.

Pete

[dean_martin]

Hey, Pete. After the grueling election season I'm just now regaining my appetite for politics. Talk about burnout! But we've got some important legislation coming up that doesn't get as much air time as keeping the tax cuts permanent or restructuring/privatizing social security. The federalization of all medical negligence cases is being debated. A Congressional hearing was supposed to be held today at which patients injured by medical mistakes and their family members were supposed to be able to speak. An indictment came down today against WR Grace and some of its top officials for hiding information relating to its asbestos mine in Libby, Montana. It's not coincidental that Pres. Bush attacked "frivolous" asbestos claims in his speech.

We have a Federal No-Fault automobile insurance bill co-sponsored by Sen. McCain of all people on the horizon that is mislabeled as a choice for consumers, but if you read the legislation all the favorable choices lie with the auto insurers. Remember, only drunk drivers like no-fault insurance.

GE Protective just petitioned the Texas Dept. of Insurance to increase its rates because it says that Texas' caps on non-economic damages have had no effect on their bottom line. This is happening all over the country in states where insurance companies have won tort reform battles for caps claiming that their rates would either go down or remain steady then after winning they come back and say that lawsuits never had much effect on their rates to begin with. Tort reform was recently defeated in Maryland and there's a huge battle going on in GA right now in which the Texas Insurance Commissioner was invited to speak on the virtues of caps. I don't think he expected GE Protective's application to increase its rates, but the good guys in GA will be ready for him.

Anyhow, it's a never-ending battle to maximize the potential recovery for my clients.

[bjornb17]

i agree with you 100%, jetskibuff

[jeskibuff]

It is interesting to see that you are assuming that I am believing everything the democrats say is true.

You certainly echo many of the standard liberal talking points. That indicates to me that you don't apply much critical thought to their theories. How anyone can believe even a smidgen of what the Democrats say is beyond me. They did a remarkable job of losing an enormous amount of credibility over the last couple of years. I like this cartoon and it was deleted from another post I made (because it was "off-topic"), but it's "on-topic" now, isn't it?

I watch the news everyday and read about current events on the internet as well. Are there any sources that you find to have all the answers to our country? Fox News?

I approach ALL news with the same attitude: the writer/anchor likely is inserting their own bias into it, no matter how small. What they say has to be measured up against the yardstick of common sense to determine if any truth lies within. Sorry, but there's too much out there where the obvious motivation is to distort the picture and that is overwhelmingly a result of the desire to promote selfish liberal agendas (gay rights, special treatment for minorities, etc.). There's PLENTY of information out there, especially on the internet. You just need to learn to whittle out the bias to see if there's anything of substance on the inside. Often there's a story within a story. For instance, the Dan Rather episode exposed the ugly bias of mainstream media instead of exposing GWB's supposed evasions of TANG duty as it had intended. Can you spell B-A-C-K-F-I-R-E??? To answer your question, it would be stupid to assume that there are news sources that "have all the answers", but I bet you're really just fishing for my news sources, aren't you? No problem...I usually watch NBC news programs (Nightly News, Meet The Press). Like I said, common sense is the backbone to deciphering the news. Liberals have consistently demonstrated that they possess so little of the quality, so I understand how they get things so wrong so much of the time.

Maybe you could stop believing the Neocon propoganda so blindly.

Maybe you can get a clue and consider the possibility that I DON'T buy propaganda like you think I do. This is best exemplified by this Cox & Forkum cartoon:

Obviously, it is beyond your comprehension that someone who thinks differently from you can "think for themselves". Gag me!

Maybe open up your mind to the fact that politics is flawed and not that just the liberals are flawed.

I've stated many times before that I'm not happy with everything that GWB and/or Republicans have done. People are imperfect and politicians are especially susceptible to being "bought". Still, the difference between Republicans and Democrats is about the same difference between the smell around a just-flushed toilet and that of a communal outhouse. Most politicians are rank, but Democrats have proven to be nothing short of putrid!

I feel that you are just way to extreme to the "right".

In typical liberal fashion, you rely too much on your feelwings. Your slanted perception of me is probably attributable to your extreme lefty bias. Go figure.

Do you have some sort of allegiance to the republicans? Are you Bush's illegitamate son? Is Bush your savior? (Those last two comments were ment as a smarta$$ joke)

I certainly hope you're not a comedian by profession. Really lame.

You have a problem with people blindly believing people like Michael Moore or the extreme left. I can't blame you. I have a problem with people believing the Neocons or the exteme right blindly.

Refer to the above cartoon once again. Why is it that I can so easily tear up virtually ANY of your lame arguments? Why is it so easy to prove you wrong? Maybe because I see things clearly and apply common sense and reason. So much of the conservative agenda holds up nicely against that standard. Practically nothing in the liberal agenda does. Call it "following blindly", but if you can't see the difference then it is not me who is "following blindly", is it?

I wish there was a way for us to get facts about our nation that is completely unbiased.

It really doesn't matter much. It's quite apparent that if you got anything unbiased, you'd apply your own bias to it. What's the difference, eh?

I agree with you 100%, jetskibuff

Why thanks, bjorn! By the way, I hate jet skis, so you may notice there is no "t" in my moniker. No problem though...it's a screwy moniker anyway! Now, ANSWER MY QUESTION...what does ROFLWTFbbq111oneone mean (what you posted in that QuickSilver thread)?

[JeffKnob]

If the reasoning behind Bush's policies just makes sense then enlighten me. Why does Bush's way of tackling these issues just make sense?

Social Security
Economy
Gay Rights
Environment
Unemployment
War in Iraq (the argument on this should be based on the ORIGINAL reason we went)

I am dying to know what "common sense" has been or will be applied to these issues. I have been reading about these on my own but I am dying to hear the "sense" from the horse's a$$, oops.....I mean mouth.

[piece-it pete]

Hey, Pete. After the grueling election season I'm just now regaining my appetite for politics. Talk about burnout! But we've got some important legislation coming up that doesn't get as much air time as keeping the tax cuts permanent or restructuring/privatizing social security. The federalization of all medical negligence cases is being debated. A Congressional hearing was supposed to be held today at which patients injured by medical mistakes and their family members were supposed to be able to speak. An indictment came down today against WR Grace and some of its top officials for hiding information relating to its asbestos mine in Libby, Montana. It's not coincidental that Pres. Bush attacked "frivolous" asbestos claims in his speech.

We have a Federal No-Fault automobile insurance bill co-sponsored by Sen. McCain of all people on the horizon that is mislabeled as a choice for consumers, but if you read the legislation all the favorable choices lie with the auto insurers. Remember, only drunk drivers like no-fault insurance.

GE Protective just petitioned the Texas Dept. of Insurance to increase its rates because it says that Texas' caps on non-economic damages have had no effect on their bottom line. This is happening all over the country in states where insurance companies have won tort reform battles for caps claiming that their rates would either go down or remain steady then after winning they come back and say that lawsuits never had much effect on their rates to begin with. Tort reform was recently defeated in Maryland and there's a huge battle going on in GA right now in which the Texas Insurance Commissioner was invited to speak on the virtues of caps. I don't think he expected GE Protective's application to increase its rates, but the good guys in GA will be ready for him.

Anyhow, it's a never-ending battle to maximize the potential recovery for my clients.

Whoosh!

That's the sound of something going over my head .

I like your last statement though. If I need a lawyer I'll call you!

I do know a bit about the asbestos thing, as I've been in the insulation industry for many years. The vast majority of folks affected by mesothemania were also heavy smokers. I met a couple of these old timers. Horrible disease.

Agreed there were/are some real slimy characters involved in the stuff, and it's still being sold by US and Canadian companies into the third world and developing countries.

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth that companies that never sold it are being sued by folks never exposed/sick. My company has passed on a number of otherwise excellent acquisitions because of possible exposure to asbestos liability. So this one issue is causing a big problem for this industry - just about every player has sold asbestos (it is an EXCELLENT insulation/fireproofing product).

Of course I would not knowingly approve of an unConstitutional method of dealing with it . I'll leave it for you guys to figure out!

Honestly I don't like Dean, not because he's a moderate, but because he plays like he is athough he's not. I don't trust him.

Interesting that premiums are still going up in those states. What can we do, short of nationalising the insurance industry (shudder)?

Pete

[jeskibuff]

If the reasoning behind Bush's policies just makes sense then enlighten me. Why does Bush's way of tackling these issues just make sense?

First of all, you're not really interested in finding out the truth, or you'd listen more than you jabber. There is little use in trying to explain something to someone who really isn't interested in listening to anything that opposes their ingrained conceptions. Besides, it's more fun shooting down the idiotic theories that liberals come up with as they vainly try to convince everyone that GWB is Stupid Satan.

Second, I'm not about to write a book, and while...
"Social Security
Economy
Gay Rights
Environment
Unemployment"
...may be a collection of a mere 7 words, nobody in their right mind could explain those on an internet message board forum and would be a fool to waste their time doing so, especially to someone like you. You need another reality check.

War in Iraq (the argument on this should be based on the ORIGINAL reason we went)

This subject has been debated for years now. If you haven't got it yet, you never will. Apparently dean_martin has had some enlightenment, which is a good thing:

I do agree with Bush's basic premise that if you bring liberty and freedom to the places of oppression where terrorism breeds, terror won't be able to hold out.

I am dying to know what "common sense" has been or will be applied to these issues. I have been reading about these on my own but I am dying to hear the "sense" from the horse's a$$, oops.....I mean mouth.

It's comments like these which will just keep your status intact as my chew toy. You don't deserve direct responses to your fishing questions because it's obvious that you're not really interested in the truth. All you really want to do is try to explain away someone else's position by implying that they're brainwashed by watching only Fox News.

Honestly I don't like Dean, not because he's a moderate, but because he plays like he is athough he's not. I don't trust him.

Pete....shhhhhh!

Now repeat after me, for the benefit of our Democrat fellows:
"Dean is good. Dean holds the future for the Democratic Party. Democrats should follow Dean whereever he leads them."

[JeffKnob]

It is interesting to see that you aren't willing to explain your views to me yet you expect me to explain mine but at the same time even if I did explain mine to you you would never listen. You just find it more fun to use condescending terms and expressions toward me than to actually explain why you feel you are right. I am making an honest effort to hear a real explaination of your views. All I have heard so far is that it is just common sense. I don't feel it is common sense. 49% of the people didn't think it was common sense and a majority of the rest of the world don't think it is common sense. I really want to hear what this common sense is.

You keep stating that I am just falling in to the liberal propoganda. Wouldn't by you saying that the policies of this president are just common sense mean that you are just following the train of the conservative propoganda?

[piece-it pete]

Jeskibuff (if that is your real name ),

lol that cartoon is funny. I like the one about "old Europe" as well.

Just FYI, when I was over in merry ol England shortly after the start of the Iraqi "war", I saw a HUGE anti-Bush/anti-Blair display in downtown London, among other things. But not one single anti-Saddam poster. Go figure.

Very strong similiarities to college campuses over here. And Jeff, this is part of the issue.

With apologies to Jes for butting in:

Everyone spins the stories or events to some degree. Being able to spot the spin, even occasionally, is very valuable regardless of your political inclinations. I found this book to be excellent, and non-political:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...29667?v=glance

When I left school I was still a long haired peacenik. I believed what they told me, yes. Then my taste in reading slowly changed from Sci-fi to history. When I started realising that we are basically being lied to and manipulated, I couldn't believe it. After all, we ARE free, right? Why would we lie to our own kids? And this AIN'T Santa Claus. This is serious business.

That's why I get my britches in a bundle. Figure out why, and you'll be pissed too. Not neccessarily become Republican. There are/have been honest Democrats, some of whom I admire greatly (Truman, Sam Rayburn come to mind) even though I disagree with them on at least 75% of the issues. I'd consider myself honored to discuss the issues of the day and long term beliefs with them.

On the flip side, there have been dishonest Reps, that I agreed with on 75% of the issues. But those folks, when recognised, should be thrown out, not applauded.

So, figure out why the kids (and uncritical adults, through the press of all stripes including Fox) are being taught and told lies and you'll know the #1 reason I get bent out of shape when I hear those lies repeated. And no, I'm not saying all critique of Bush fits this.

#2, somewhat linked to #1, is overall worldview.

I read an interesting book by Dewey, the guy Truman beat. Don't remember the name . After he was defeated he went on a trip through SE Asia, meeting with all the leaders of those various countries. Most talked about how things were affecting THEM. Only Chang Ki Shek (sp) discussed the overall effect and regional and worldwide consequences of various actions.

Which do you think is more likely to lead to a better world?

There have been many Democrats with a large worldview. Roosevelt. Wilson. Men with grand, sweeping vision (that I generally don't agree with ). They didn't just talk about how it effected us (small letters) They talked about how it would effect US AND the world.

And I don't see one smidgen of that in current Democrat discourse, they are fine to encourage the lies, even though they know differently. And believe me, the top Dems do know differently. So when I hear that crap I get upset.

I hope this helps you. Even if you end up being a Democrat in spite of it lol. You can at least be a part of the Loyal Opposition, and help us all remain free.

BTW, I don't claim to speak for Jeskibuff, JSE, Justlisten2 , or any other conservative or conservative-leaning member.

As far as sources, the key is multiples. If you want the "real" scoop (or an approximation thereof) of any issue or person it is neccessary to read as many sources as possible. I even watch PBS occasionally lol. Section "A" of many newspapers is a good place to look, there is a lot of background info there, it may well be the single best place for info, read cover to cover, partic on Sundays. The opinion pages too, but remember the slant (both ways). I like the McLaughlin Group on PBS, everyone thinks he's a GOPer but I've heard him beat Bush bloody occasionally, he's dead-set against the Iraq campaign and there's always the highly Dem partisan Eleanor. They discuss the issues of the moment quite well IMO.

Pete

[Justlisten2]

No wonder the GOP owns the media, the rich have more free time. Hell I can't even be bothered to read all them posts. Jeskibuffy, FWIW, I didn't specifically refer to you as a dumba$$. The rich are smart. The dumba$$' are those that vote GOP but aren't rich. You have to be rich or be easily mind manipulated to vote GOP. I personally would love to vote GOP. That's a dream of mine. To one day be wealthy enough to vote republican.........

Now us working folks have to get back to work. I'll leave the grandstanding to you oppulent ones.

[piece-it pete]

The dumba$$' are those that vote GOP but aren't rich.

Hey now...

What about Democrats who aren't poor?

Pete

[dean_martin]

I do know a bit about the asbestos thing, as I've been in the insulation industry for many years. The vast majority of folks affected by mesothemania were also heavy smokers. I met a couple of these old timers. Horrible disease.

Agreed there were/are some real slimy characters involved in the stuff, and it's still being sold by US and Canadian companies into the third world and developing countries.

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth that companies that never sold it are being sued by folks never exposed/sick. My company has passed on a number of otherwise excellent acquisitions because of possible exposure to asbestos liability. So this one issue is causing a big problem for this industry - just about every player has sold asbestos (it is an EXCELLENT insulation/fireproofing product).

Yes, there are some gravy trainers and with the sheer numbers of injured it's difficult to weed them out early on in the process. We've referred a couple of cases to a large firm in Dallas, TX that screens cases thoroughly by requiring the plaintiff to get forms signed by doctors. There are two serious issues that must be addressed up front: 1) The latency period for disease is often 20-30 years and most states have a "discovery rule" which tolls the statute of limitations until the harm or injury is or should have been discovered, and 2) by that time the company that employed the plaintiff or manufactured the product with asbestos is often either no longer in business or has been aquired by another company (a successor company generally aquires liabilities along with assets).

Here's a timeline of asbestos-related events:

1918-1929:
Medical articles describing asbestosis first appear in scientific literature.

Dr. E.R.A. Merewether, medical inspector of factories in Great Britain, publishes a landmark article on asbestosis describing the clinical characteristics of asbestosis, the dust control requirements to prevent the disease, and the importance of educating workers about the hazards of asbestos.

1932:
Manville Corporation, a major producer of asbestos, settles first asbestosis lawsuits.

1933:
Dr. Anthony Lanza of Metropolitan Life Insurance Company discovers more than 300 cases of asbestosis at the Johns-Manville plant. The cases are never published.

1934:
Two doctors publish the first major medical article associating asbestosis with lung cancer.

1948:
Owens-Illinois Glass Company (parent company to Owens-Corning Fiberglas Corporation) gets results of study on Kaylo, a 15% asbestos-containing pipecovering product. The lab director, Dr. Vorwald, concludes: "...since Kaylo is capable of producing asbestosis, it is better to discover it now in animals rather than later in [humans].... the company, being forewarned, will be in a better position to institute adequate control measure for safeguarding exposed employees and protecting its own interests."

The final report on Kaylo (1952) shows Kaylo dust can produce a peribroncheolar fibrosis typical of asbestosis. No brochure warning about Kaylo's health hazards was ever published.

Owens-Corning (OCF) becomes a national distributor of Kaylo (1953) and publicizes Kaylo in a 1955 sales brochure as: "Light weight, pleasant handling and non-irritating and non-toxic nature contribute to worker well- being."

1949:
Johns-Manville Corporation adopts policy not to tell employees when their medical exams show they have asbestosis.

1953:
Dr. O. A. Sander, medical consultant for Southern Asbestos Company, publishes an article stating, "Asbestosis is compatible with good health and a feeling of well-being."

1962-64:
Philip Carey Manufacturing Company, a producer of asbestos pipecovering, hires Dr. Thomas Mancuso to investigate asbestos. Mancuso reports, "there is an urgent need to protect the company's employees and customers from the danger of Philip Carey asbestos products." Mancuso is immediately fired. His report is buried. No warnings are placed on Philip Carey products.

1964:
Many major asbestos manufacturers attend an international conference (organized by Dr. I .J. Selikoff, Environmental Sciences Lab director at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York) about asbestosis, lung cancer and mesothelioma (a unique asbestos cancer of the lining of the lung). Copies of the proceedings and scientific papers and findings were widely distributed. From a study of 117,000 industrial workers in the NY/NJ area: Up to 80% of asbestos insulators were contracting asbestosis after a latency period of 20 years.

1964:
The Manville Corporation recommends the placement of an asbestos caution label on boxes of asbestos products. The labels were 2" square, stamped in small print on the bottom of 3-foot cardboard boxes.

1965:
The Director of Safety for OCF writes a confidential memo to top management: "Our present concern is to find some way of preventing Dr. Selikoff from creating problems and affecting sales."

1966:
A letter from E.A. Martin, the purchasing director of Bendix Corporation, states: "My answer to the problem is: if you have enjoyed a good life while working with asbestos products, why not die from it. There's got to be some cause."

1967:
Louis P. Gray, assistant head of the Pipecovering Department at Newport News Shipyard, writes a memo to four foremen advising respirators are "mandatory" when working with or around asbestos. Gray gives no reason for the respirator use. Workers never see the memo, which is not enforced. Twelve years later Gray testifies: "...it boils down to the fact that if you tell 300 people that what they are working with might cause cancer, you might not have anybody show up the next morning."

1968:
OCF's medical director, Dr. Jon Konzen, responds to an inquiry from OCF lawyers: "Asbestosis was well known and well-documented in the literature... [since the early 1940s]." OCF lawyers later state under oath: "OCF has no information or belief that prolonged use of its products containing asbestos fibers will cause asbestosis."

1969:
OCF's sales manager asks Dr. Konzen about a memo regarding the use of warning labels on Kaylo: "Are you saying that we have to do this now? I naturally would like to delay this requirement as long as possible."

1975-present:
2,500 Newport News Shipyard workers contract asbestosis, lung cancer and/or mesothelioma.

1989:
The EPA issues a ban on the manufacture, importation and distribution of most asbestos-containing products. The industry challenged the ban and it was partially overturned.

1990:
John Thomas, former president of OCF in the 1960s and top executive of OCF since the 1940s, testifies the company knew all the way back to the beginning of his employment that asbestos products were dangerous, that respirators should be worn when working with asbestos products, and that OCF should have warned workers about the dangers of its Kaylo asbestos products.

1999:
Asbestos companies ask Congress for liability relief


I'll leave it for you guys to figure out! - It's not easy but with current public awareness a filing cut-off date is a certainty.

Honestly I don't like Dean, not because he's a moderate, but because he plays like he is athough he's not. I don't trust him.

I'm not sure how the top of the Democratic Party is handled, but down here we would call it the "good ol' boy network".

Interesting that premiums are still going up in those states. What can we do, short of nationalising the insurance industry (shudder)?

Pete

According to a Congressional Budget Office report, there are 3 main problems causing medical malpractice insurance rates to increase. Although the number of medical malpractice claims and payouts has remained steady for more than 10 years, the dollar amounts of the payouts have increased. I can think of 2 reasons for this - better lawyering and increased health care costs. Most patients injured by medical mistakes require further and future medical care. The payouts are based on the stated prices of certain medical treatments and projected medical inflation. Interestingly, when someone with health insurance goes to the ER or hospital for a particular procedure, their health insurance company is not charged what an individual without health insurance would be charged. But, damages for future medical expenses are not based on the prices contracted between health care providers and insurers.

The second problem is that between 1993 and 2002, insurers' return on investments have decreased from a whopping 44% to 18%. Much of this has been made up by increasing premiums. (But I don't think 18% is all that bad, do you?)

The third problem identified is Greek to me but has something to do with the cyclical nature of insurance including the mysterious reinsurance industry which brings into play all insurance, not just medical liability. Therefore, catastrophes such as hurricanes and 9/11 are dragged into the mix.

Here are some interesting quotes from insurance industry execs. and tort reform leaders:

"We have not promised price reductions with tort reform."

~Dennis Kelly, American Insurance Association spokesman, Chicago Tribune, January 3, 2005.


"There is no question that it is very rare that frivolous suits are brought against doctors. They are too expensive to bring."

~Victor Schwartz, General Counsel of the American Tort Reform Association, Los Angeles Times, October 22, 2004.

“Non-economic damages are a small percentage of total losses paid. Capping non-economic damages will show loss savings of 1.0%.”


~GE Medical Protective regulatory filing with Department of Insurance (TDI), October 30, 2003. The revelation was contained in a document submitted by GE Medical Protective to explain why the insurer planned to raise physicians’ premiums 19% a mere six months after Texas enacted caps on medical malpractice awards.

"I don't like to hear insurance-company executives say it's the tort system - it's self inflicted."

~Donald J. Zuk, chief executive of Scpie Holdings Inc., a leading malpractice insurer in California, Wall Street Journal, June 24, 2002.

"No responsible insurer can cut its rates after a [medical malpractice tort 'reform'] bill passes."

~Bob White, President of First Professional Insurance Company, the largest medical malpractice insurer in Florida, talking about a proposed $250,000 cap in the January 29, 2003 Palm Beach Post.

"I don't think we would argue that the premiums are likely to go down. We believe it will have the effect of reducing the increases in the future. And one of the reasons the premiums won't go down is that even if noneconomic damages are capped, the losses for economic loss, medical expenses, for example, are still in this current environment escalating at, medical inflation is running in the double digits. I forget exactly what it was last year. So even if you were to cap noneconomic damages, the economic damages will still cause acceleration in the premiums. So it would not go down, I want to clarify if I misspoke and said I thought the premiums would go down."

~Cliff Webster, representing the Washington State Medical Association & Chairman of the Washington Liability Reform Coalition, testifying before the Washington State Legislature, House Judiciary Committee, Feb. 21, 2003.

"Insurers never promised that tort reform would achieve specific premium savings..."

~From a press release published March 13, 2002, by the American Insurance Association (AIA).

"[M]any tort reform advocates do not contend that restricting litigation will lower insurance rates, and 'I've never said that in 30 years.'"

~Victor Schwartz, General Counsel of the American Tort Reform Association, as paraphrased and quoted in "Tort Reforms Don't Cut Liability Rates, Study Says," published in Business Insurance July 19, 1999.

"We wouldn't tell you or anyone that the reason to pass tort reform would be to reduce insurance rates."

~Sherman Joyce, President of the American Tort Reform Association, as quoted in "Study Finds No Link Between Tort Reforms and Insurance Rates," Liability Week, July 19, 1999.

"Insurance was cheaper in the 1990s because insurance companies knew that they could take a doctor's premium and invest it, and $50,000 would be worth $200,000 five years later when the claim came in. An insurance company today can't do that."

~Victor Schwartz, general counsel to the American Tort Reform Association, "Dose of Legality," Honolulu Star-Bulletin, April 20, 2003.

"While MICRA was the legislature's attempt at remedying the medical malpractice crisis in California in 1975, it did not substantially reduce the relative risk of medical malpractice insurance in California."


~James Robertson, Assistant Vice President and Associate Actuary, SCIPIE Indemnity Company (California's second largest medical malpractice insurer), in written testimony responding to a question from an administrative law jugdge who is overseeing a case in which SCIPIE has requested a 15.6 % rate hike. April 30, 2003

To answer your question what can we do, I think all interested parties should honestly identify the problems first.