Large Or Small

[VRDUB]

Hi all noob here! So excuse me if any of this sounds really basic.

I have the Denon 2805 reciever and I'm running Paradigm Mon. 7's for the mains. Now my ? is during the auto-setup on the reciever what should I set the cross-over at? I keep hearing that even though the speaker is a full range speaker, that setting the speaker to small and having the sub do all the heavy work is the best bet.

In the Paradigm catalog it say the Mon. 7's V.3's low-frequency extension is 33 Hz. (DIN)*
Which I think puts it in the "Large" category.

Also, what should I set the Crossover and the Volume Level (on the sub) at, before auto-setup?

Thanx!!!!!!!!

[This Guy]

If you're crossing it over to the sub through the receiver (subwoofer output), set the crossover on the sub all the way up. Set the speakers as small and try a crossover of around 60 hz. You want the sub about 3-6 dB louder than the rest of your speakers. Go to radio shack and get their spl meter. Make sure all the channels are the same loudness at your listening position and set the subwoofer 3-6 dB louder, whichever you like more. Also, play around with the sub crossover (in the receiver), and phase switch/dial to whatever sounds best.

[VRDUB]

By setting the crossover on the sub all the way up, do you mean 150Hz? The sub's Cut-Off Frequency is 50Hz -150Hz.? Also what is Phase Switch/Dial?

Thanks for the quick reply Dude!

[This Guy]

Yes set it all the way up to 150 hz if you're using the sub output from your receiver. The phase switch or dial on your sub adjusts it so that it is in phase with your main speakers. This is used when you place your sub far away from your mains. It;s kinda hard to explain, you adjust it so that the bass gets to your ears the same time that it does for your main speakers. Do a search on it and you'll understand better. Your sub should have a switch or dial for it. If you're not using the sub output on your receiver, I'll explain how to go about doing the crossover later.

-Joey

[VRDUB]

Yeah, my sub is on at the back of the room next to my sofa, but I don't have a phase switch or dial on the sub (small Paradigm PDR8 sub). All it has is the sub Level and the sub Cut-Off Frequency. Oh yeah , the sub is connected using the sub out-put from the receiver.

Thanks again Bud!!!

[satz]

Hi

why is it that the SUB has to be slightly louder than other speakers? Is it just to get the 'oomph', or is there some technical reason?

:-)

If I want the sub 'nicely' integrated, esp for music in Source Direct mode, then should I have it at the same level as the rest of the speakers?

cheers

S

[poneal]

I have all my speakers set to large and the sub xover frequency set to 60hz. Since all my speakers can play down to around 40hz (-3db), I choose 60hz for the xover. This allows all my speakers to receive frequencies at or above 60hz and the sub to receive all frequencies at or below 60hz. This does not mean that that is exactly how it works with the magical cutoff at 60hz. The main/surround speakers still output below 60hz but the receiver sends a lower volume signal to it below 60. I'm guessing that at 50hz my receiver sends the mains/surrounds a signal that is -3db or maybe even -6db. Depends on the xover slope. The sub will go the opposite direction. It will receive all frequencies below 60hz but will attenuate signals higher thanb 60. So maybe at 70hz the sub frequency is down -3db. You get the concept? The main thing is that the xover is not a brick wall where anything above or below a set frequency is blocked.

[cam]

I have all my speakers set to large and the sub xover frequency set to 60hz. Since all my speakers can play down to around 40hz (-3db), I choose 60hz for the xover. This allows all my speakers to receive frequencies at or above 60hz and the sub to receive all frequencies at or below 60hz. This does not mean that that is exactly how it works with the magical cutoff at 60hz. The main/surround speakers still output below 60hz but the receiver sends a lower volume signal to it below 60. I'm guessing that at 50hz my receiver sends the mains/surrounds a signal that is -3db or maybe even -6db. Depends on the xover slope. The sub will go the opposite direction. It will receive all frequencies below 60hz but will attenuate signals higher thanb 60. So maybe at 70hz the sub frequency is down -3db. You get the concept? The main thing is that the xover is not a brick wall where anything above or below a set frequency is blocked.

If you want your output to be clearer and more dynamic at higher volumes I would set all your speakers to small and set your receiver at 60 hz crossover, dial your sub to the highest setting and enjoy. Your receiver will have more headroom and less strain on its power supply and your other speakers will play clearer and louder with better midrange. If you are set on 60 hz then this is the way I would do it. The saying goes, setting to small means BIG sound.

[This Guy]

satz, humans' hearing gets much less sensitive at the frequency extremes. It has an official name, but I forget what it's called (maybe someone can post that). Basically you just turn the sub up louder to compensate for this curve. If you used an spl meter and ran your system so that it's completely flat from 20 khz to 20 hz, you would think it was lacking bass only because our hearing starts dropping off as the frequency goes lower.

-joey

[kexodusc]

VRDUB: Play around with the suggestion you've read so far.
I went through all this a few months back after years of leaving my paradigm Studios set at "large"...I tried setting them to small based on advice here from Woochifer and others and I honestly prefer the brickwall LFE cutoff method at around 60 or 40 Hz...it's certainly easier on your amplifier and in my opinion really helped the speakers in the midrange frequencies since they weren't required to do both anymore.
A friend of mine uses a method similar to Poneal's and I have to admit his system sounds great too..I couldn't get that kind of blending with mine though.

There isn't a best way, I don't think, but there are reasons in favor of each method.

[VRDUB]

Thanks everyone!! Ok, so by the looks of things, setting my speakers to small is the way to go. I will try it out, but my next question is about listening to two channel music. Isn't it best to have the speakers set to large for 2CH. in Direct/Pure Direct listening mode? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Once again, Thanx for all the help!!

[kexodusc]

Isn't it best to have the speakers set to large for 2CH. in Direct/Pure Direct listening mode?

You could easily start a flame war here asking that question. Once again I would submit that there isn't a "best". Certain setups with a sub will sound better for 2ch stereo than other setups without a sub. This is very dependant on your speakers and how they behave. It doesn't cost you much to play around.

Purists will prefer full-range speakers without a sub. Some people maybe a bit deaf in the bass regions and like the reinforcement a sub can provide. "Bassheads" like exaggerated low end and usually can't make do without a sub. Whatever sounds best to you.

This is one of the advantages with home stereo playback vs. live performances...you have some control to tweak the way a performance sounds at home...If you're at a concert and you'd like bass louder, unless you jeer the band or have incredible influence, chances are you're at their mercy. At home you can adjust the bass.

The hardest thing for some audio-enthusiasts to do is to figure out what sounds good to them and to live with that. Instead they often focus on what sounds good to others and try to tailor their system after that...this can lead to dissatisfaction very quickly if your tastes are a bit different. If everyone liked the same stuff, there'd be no need for variety in equipment.

[VRDUB]

Cool, I'll try all those different settings and see what I like best.

Again Thanks a bunch!!!

[kexodusc]

VRDUB: I've got to ask you, why did you get a PDR-8 with Monitor 7's? What's the rest of your system?

[VRDUB]

Kexodusc: I have had the PDR8 for a while now. I bought it as part of the Cinema Series. The sub will be replaced soon, but first I want to replace my surrounds (also Cinema Series) to the ADP 370's. So as it stands now my system is as follows.

Toshiba 42" HDTV Widescreen
Denon AVR2805
Toshiba DVD player
Technics CD player
Paradigm Mon. 7's V.3
Paradigm CC370 V.3
Paradigm Cinema 70's surrounds
Paradigm PDR8 V.2 sub


-Rudy

[kexodusc]

Ahh, makes perfect sense. How'd you like the cinema's?

[VRDUB]

The Cinema's are awsome little speaker. I had them set up in my bedroom when I was living at my parents. Got married and my Best Man (Brother In Law) bought me the Mon. 7's as a wedding gift. Since then I have had the audio bug, and a bigger room, so I thought I'd continue with the Monitor line. I have always liked audio, so he asked me to go and audition some speakers with him (thinking it was for him) and I told him I would buy the Mon. 7's if I was him.

So back to your question on the Cinema's, they sound alot bigger that they are, and match up nicely with the PDR8 sub. I'll be setting them up in my basement with my video game system.

[cam]

Thanks everyone!! Ok, so by the looks of things, setting my speakers to small is the way to go. I will try it out, but my next question is about listening to two channel music. Isn't it best to have the speakers set to large for 2CH. in Direct/Pure Direct listening mode? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Once again, Thanx for all the help!!

You are building a fine system. I too have the 7's, cc370, and adp370's with a denon. One thing you will notice with your denon is that no matter what your settings are, big or small, and what crossover setting you have chosen, when you play back through 2 channel direct it will play back full range. Your 7's will be full range and your sub will be on as well. If you at this point do not want your sub on you will have to turn the gain down. Myself, I have a pw-2200 and I would never ever consider turning it down. Party on!

[kexodusc]

I had mini monitors v.1 for a few years, I was quite happy with them at the time, they weren't as good as my wharfedale emeralds but they actually imaged a bit better, and considering the price difference I was quite happy.
I tried a complete Monitor series HT, and for the difference in the money I had spent I went straight to the Studio 40's and 20's.
I do think Paradigm makes a solid subwoofer in the PW-series. I have a PW-2200 and a PW-2100. I'm actually selling the PW-2200 to a friend before I move, I like the smaller woofer just a bit better.

VRDUB: I would suggest you take time to compare heavily the ADP-370's with just Mini-Monitors as rears/surrounds. If you start getting into multi-channel audio (which is becoming the next big thing in music), you might find the ADP's a bit distracting. 5.1 audio isn't made with ADP type speakers in mind. Even for general 5.1 movie playback, there's definitely a split among audio enthusiasts about whether to use bipole/dipole speakers or direct radiating speakers as rears. Make sure you get what you like or it could drive you nuts...trust me, I've been down that path!
If you do decide to go with Mini Monitors, you'll have saved yourself a few hundred bucks, too.

[cam]

I had mini monitors v.1 for a few years, I was quite happy with them at the time, they weren't as good as my wharfedale emeralds but they actually imaged a bit better, and considering the price difference I was quite happy.
I tried a complete Monitor series HT, and for the difference in the money I had spent I went straight to the Studio 40's and 20's.
I do think Paradigm makes a solid subwoofer in the PW-series. I have a PW-2200 and a PW-2100. I'm actually selling the PW-2200 to a friend before I move, I like the smaller woofer just a bit better.

VRDUB: I would suggest you take time to compare heavily the ADP-370's with just Mini-Monitors as rears/surrounds. If you start getting into multi-channel audio (which is becoming the next big thing in music), you might find the ADP's a bit distracting. 5.1 audio isn't made with ADP type speakers in mind. Even for general 5.1 movie playback, there's definitely a split among audio enthusiasts about whether to use bipole/dipole speakers or direct radiating speakers as rears. Make sure you get what you like or it could drive you nuts...trust me, I've been down that path!
If you do decide to go with Mini Monitors, you'll have saved yourself a few hundred bucks, too.

if I was to rate my best piece in my ht set up, hands down my adp's is the best purchase out of all my purchases. As far as it goes listening to 5.1 music, you are right, they were not intended when they were mixing music in 5.1. But they still sound incredible (to me) and, absolutley in no way do they annoy or distract me listening to music mixed in 5.1. In my situation my di-poles have room to work properly, if my couch was against a back wall I guaranty my opinion would change. There is a big split in opinion on di-poles, but not everyones room (set up) is the same.

[kexodusc]

There is a big split in opinion on di-poles.

Ain't that the truth...ya either love'em or hate'em.

For what it's worth, I tried about 5 different places for the ADP's and could never get them to jive right. But I always suspected that if a couch WAS against a back wall that ADP's might work better?
I've never really liked any dipole setups I've heard. I bought the ADP-370's because my salesguy told me they were a must. Just didn't sound right to me.
I know the guy pretty well and he loves his, but he was nice enough to let me return them. I know a few others in the forums here that prefer the dipolar/bipolar surround speakers too. I wasn't trying to influence the decision so much, my bias is obvious, just to make all aware that this is a very critical step in the HT building process. Make sure you find out which style you prefer and go with it. I've seen too many pre-packaged deals including dipolar/bipolar setups pushed onto newbies who are told that "this is what it should sound like".

Incidentally, when I made the jump to 7 speakers, I tried the Studio ADP-470's on both the sides and the rear. I actually much preferred them in the rear!!! My room is huge and really helped fill out the rear. I almost bought them, but I found a sweet deal on a used set of Studio 20's, so I went that way instead...saved a ton of money there!

A few companies actually manufacture bipolar/dipolar speakers that can also function as direct radiating speakers if you flip the switch to the appropriate setting. The ones I've seen have 3 sets of drivers on them though. Good idea, but cost-prohibitive to most people I would think.

[VRDUB]

Thanks guys. I was almost sure that the dipoles were the way to go, but when I am ready to purchase, I will do some critical listening to see (hear) what I like better.

Oh!!! And one more thing. I did the auto set-up again and tried all the different settings suggested here. I must say that I prefer the Mon. 7's set to large, crossover set at 60Hz. and LFE+MAINS in the sub setting on the receiver. All the help here has been awsome.

[poneal]

Cam, I would love to set my speakers to small, but unfortunately my receivers' settings for small only allow crossovers of 80 or 100hz. 80hz seems a little high to me (I can localize where the bass is coming from) so I set them to large). I sure wish that they had a 60hz xover for the small setting... but that's another story. See ya. Paul.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Cam, I would love to set my speakers to small, but unfortunately my receivers' settings for small only allow crossovers of 80 or 100hz. 80hz seems a little high to me (I can localize where the bass is coming from) so I set them to large). I sure wish that they had a 60hz xover for the small setting... but that's another story. See ya. Paul.

Actually 80hz is a unofficial standard within the audio community. It was the THX standards that really made this crossover point widespread amoung all manufacturer. Their philosophy is that if you want the sub to disappear, you have to cross it over at least one octave from the point that bass becomes directional to the ear, and use steep crossover filters. According to their listening test, that would have been 160hz using 24db per octave linkwitz crossover filters. If you can localize your bass using 80hz crossover point, it is likely there is something vibrating(like a wall or the floor) that is near or under the sub. In THX systems I have installed, the bass is not localized using the standard 80hz crossover point.

From an acoustical stand point, in the absence of EQ on all channels, the small setting should be used for all speakers. Bass coming from different directions, interacting with different points in the room will have a different frequency response at the listening position. This difference can be as much as 20db. So one channel may have great bass(L+R mains),another channel may have a completely different frequency response(center), and still the surrounds will have an entirely different frequency response all based on the speakers proximity to the walls of the room. By sending all the bass to the sub, you are pretty much assured that all channels will have the same bass response no matter where the mains, center and surrounds are placed. You will also have a much clearer midrange and upper bass coming from the mains, center and surrounds.

[poneal]

Very interesting Sir Terrence! I may just give that a try as it would lessen the load that my receiver must output. This is actually a good time to try it since I have just rearranged my living room. Now it's setup more like a HT environment. I also have 5 matching speakers which will be done hopefully in the next few weeks. All this mean breaking out the SPL meter again and adjusting everything again which I really enjoy doing anyway. Nice post. Paul.