Panasonic plasma losing black level?

[Smokey]

Panasonic has confirmed that its plasma TVs reproduce brighter black levels (reduced black level) by design as they age, but will not divulge exactly how much brighter after how long. New testing conducted by CNET provides some hints.

Results from two aged Panasonic plasma TVs purchased in 2009 indeed show brighter blacks, and correspondingly reduced picture quality, compared with similar 2009 models with fewer hours.

The two aged TVs were a TC-P50G10 owned by CNET Senior Editor John Falcone and a TC-P42G10 loaned to us by CNET reader Efrain Perez. Both had approximately 1,500 hours of use, about 9.6 months of age, at the time testing was conducted. We also measured another 50-inch TC-P50G10 and a 50-inch TC-P50V10, each with about 500 hours.

According to our measurements, the models with 1,500 hours both reproduced black at 0.023 footlamberts; the 500-hour models measured 0.008.

In dark scenes from "The Dark Knight" on Blu-ray, the 500-hour V10 clearly displayed a darker shade of black than the 1,500-hour G10, leading to more-realistic reproduction of nighttime city-scapes in Chapters 2 and 8, for example, the rooftop parlay in Chapter 8, and the silhouette of Bruce Wayne as he enters the room in Chapter 18. The difference was also visible in letterbox bars, albeit less so, in numerous brighter scenes.

Panasonic claims Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control, which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours. As a result, background brightness will increase from its initial value.

CNET contacted Panasonic with these test results but the company declined to comment because of pending litigation related to this issue.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462105-1.html

[kelsci]

Hi Smokey; This factor certainly defeats the purpose of a high-def tv's function in such an important area. The bigger question here is whether any other plasmas from other manufacturers do the same thing.

[pixelthis]

The design philosophy is that they are like whiskey, made to sell, not use.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT they use phospers, and need to boost brightness every so
'often to keep the picture from growing dimmer, not that I care. Plasma tv just looks
like new tech, its actually just a squished CRT that uses a plasma to transmit
electrons to the phospers, instead of shooting them through a vaccume, so like a CRT
they will fade.
Since a fantastically designed CRT will barely last ten years, the claims of 20 year life for
a plasma are of course rediculous. I guess they are going to let the lawyers take care of that, too(engineering by lawyer).
Since Panny makes a good deal of the plasma screens, this may be widespread, depends
on if its a design feature of the panel, or the action of a control circuit(like the circuit that
causes a picture to bounce around to prevent burn in).
This format is just about done anyway, stick a fork in it. If the market doesnt kill it, the lawyers or environmentalists will.
Dont say I DIDN'T TELL YA
plasma is
DEAD

[kevlarus]

Since a fantastically designed CRT will barely last ten years, the claims of 20 year life for
a plasma are of course rediculous.

I'm presuming when you say CRT, you're talking of the original tube design. My first, which wasn't quite a flat panel although pretty close to it, lasted over 15 yrs. Last I left it, it was still working. Not sure about now.

The previous tube was a true flat panel with component in. That was over 10yrs old and is still alive and well with another member of the family, while we went to HD. I suppose if you watch it 24hrs a day and not have to work, that might lessen its life, but I definitely question your conclusion above. I say that "myth is busted".

[3LB]

...10 year life-span on CRTs...

you mean the picture quality waning after 10yrs or just flat-out quit working altogether?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The design philosophy is that they are like whiskey, made to sell, not use.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT they use phospers, and need to boost brightness every so
'often to keep the picture from growing dimmer, not that I care. Plasma tv just looks
like new tech, its actually just a squished CRT that uses a plasma to transmit
electrons to the phospers, instead of shooting them through a vaccume, so like a CRT
they will fade.
Since a fantastically designed CRT will barely last ten years, the claims of 20 year life for
a plasma are of course rediculous. I guess they are going to let the lawyers take care of that, too(engineering by lawyer).
Since Panny makes a good deal of the plasma screens, this may be widespread, depends
on if its a design feature of the panel, or the action of a control circuit(like the circuit that
causes a picture to bounce around to prevent burn in).
This format is just about done anyway, stick a fork in it. If the market doesnt kill it, the lawyers or environmentalists will.
Dont say I DIDN'T TELL YA
plasma is
DEAD

You make me laugh so hard with your hair brained answers. First, the phosphors used in plasma are for color, not shades such as white, black and grey. The phosphors in a plasma display give off colored light when they are excited. Every pixel is made up of three separate subpixel cells, each with different colored phosphors. One subpixel has a red light phosphor, one subpixel has a green light phosphor and one subpixel has a blue light phosphor. These colors blend together to create the overall color of the pixel.
By varying the pulses of current flowing through the different cells, the control system can increase or decrease the intensity of each subpixel color to create hundreds of different combinations of red, green and blue. In this way, the control system can produce colors across the entire spectrum.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

you mean the picture quality waning after 10yrs or just flat-out quit working altogether?

He is talking about when the set begins losing brightness noticeably.

[Smokey]

Hi Smokey; This factor certainly defeats the purpose of a high-def tv's function in such an important area. The bigger question here is whether any other plasmas from other manufacturers do the same thing.

Apparently this issue pertain only to panasonic Plasma. The author noted that a Pioneer Kuro plasma they've used as a reference since September 2008 shows no increase in black level.

What make this story interesting is the class action lawsuit against Panasonic in federal court in New Jersey regarding this issue. Which mean Pansonic is prohibited to comment on the results, or to respond to questions. But either way it is not good news for Panasonic, and Plasma in particulare.

[pixelthis]

Apparently this issue pertain only to panasonic Plasma. The author noted that a Pioneer Kuro plasma they've used as a reference since September 2008 shows no increase in black level.

What make this story interesting is the class action lawsuit against Panasonic in federal court in New Jersey regarding this issue. Which mean Pansonic is prohibited to comment on the results, or to respond to questions. But either way it is not good news for Panasonic, and Plasma in particulare.

But it sure explains a LOT.
What is the one thing, the one thing that plasma fanboys have been harping about
as far as plasma dominance?
Thats right, a better black-level!!! Only slightly better than LCD, a lot couldn't tell
any difference, and now we find out that is is all chicanery, a rigged black level to give
to magazines and to con people into buying the sets, then a few years later...blam!
The supposed "advantage" disappears.
Talky and other know nothings have been harping about the increased black-level of
plasma as related to LCD, TURNS OUT it was a con, like the MEXICAN JUMPING BEAN CIRCUIT THAT is supposed to "cure" burn in.
And how many companies does Panny make panels for, anyway?
AND here I thought the increased gamma radiation and shorter than promised life span
would be the first shoe to drop.

[pixelthis]

You make me laugh so hard with your hair brained answers. First, the phosphors used in plasma are for color, not shades such as white, black and grey. The phosphors in a plasma display give off colored light when they are excited. Every pixel is made up of three separate subpixel cells, each with different colored phosphors. One subpixel has a red light phosphor, one subpixel has a green light phosphor and one subpixel has a blue light phosphor. These colors blend together to create the overall color of the pixel.
By varying the pulses of current flowing through the different cells, the control system can increase or decrease the intensity of each subpixel color to create hundreds of different combinations of red, green and blue. In this way, the control system can produce colors across the entire spectrum.

TV 101, SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
These phospers degrade over time, their response time lenghtens.
THE PANEL GROWS DIMMER as time goes by, just like a CRT .
With a CRT, this is normal, when the picture dims, you turn up the brightness until its
again acceptable. When you cant turn it up anymore, and you can't see the picture ,
time for a new TV.
Only problem is, it affects blacks to turn up the brightness, now it seems that PANNY HAS DESIGNED THEIR SETS to automatically adjust brightness as time goes by!
Only problem is, in bragging about the superior "black levels" of plasma, they kinda
"forgot" to explain that these would only last a few years.
LCD is the only NEW tech, plasma is just a reworked CRT, with all of the problems associated with CRT.
So how about a little honesty , please? Might keep yopu from getting sued

[pixelthis]

Apparently this issue pertain only to panasonic Plasma. The author noted that a Pioneer Kuro plasma they've used as a reference since September 2008 shows no increase in black level.

What make this story interesting is the class action lawsuit against Panasonic in federal court in New Jersey regarding this issue. Which mean Pansonic is prohibited to comment on the results, or to respond to questions. But either way it is not good news for Panasonic, and Plasma in particulare.

Which is good, since buying a plasma is not a good thing for the owner.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

TV 101, SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
These phospers degrade over time, their response time lenghtens.

If this is TV 101, then why don't you get it? Plasmas do not have response time issues, they don't have pixels that twist and untwist.

THE PANEL GROWS DIMMER as time goes by, just like a CRT .

By the time your realize it is dimmer, you have owned it for years. Just like CRT

With a CRT, this is normal, when the picture dims, you turn up the brightness until its

This has zero to do with phosphers. The colors made fade, but it does not effect black or white levels.

again acceptable. When you cant turn it up anymore, and you can't see the picture ,
time for a new TV.

That happens do far down the road it is pityful. Nothing like spinning up a false argument huh twistedpixel.

Only problem is, it affects blacks to turn up the brightness, now it seems that PANNY HAS DESIGNED THEIR SETS to automatically adjust brightness as time goes by!

Seems to me this is a foward thinking process since you know the panel is going to fade over time. LCD has a simular problem with the florescent back light on most LCD panels.

Only problem is, in bragging about the superior "black levels" of plasma, they kinda
"forgot" to explain that these would only last a few years.

Since this is only happening with Panasonic plasma's, there is no reason to believe it will happen to Samsungs panels. The reality is, a .0023 FL level is still better than quite a few LCD panels that are brand new.

LCD is the only NEW tech, plasma is just a reworked CRT, with all of the problems associated with CRT.
So how about a little honesty , please? Might keep yopu from getting sued

So, you want a little honesty. How about the fact that LCD are also prone to fading over time. The CCFL used in 90 percent of the current LCD are prone to fade just like Plasmas phosphors are. Rather than just elevating black levels like Plasma does, a fading florescent tube alters the colors to the point they cannot be calibrated back in optimal color saturation or accuracy.

When you properly calibrate both types of televisions, it extends the life of both. But to say fade is a problem with Plasma, and not with LCD, it just a lie plain and simple.

Knowing you, I'll bet you will deny this, even though there is a body of studies to back this up.

[pixelthis]

you mean the picture quality waning after 10yrs or just flat-out quit working altogether?

With a CRT the picture starts to "wane" out of the box, they glow when hit by an electron beam.
Well, there is no such thing as a free lunch, so they degrade a tiny bit every time they produce light, ever notice how you have to turn up brightness on an older CRT set?
Well, by the time ten years rolls around that tube is getting pretty dim, if its still working,
being its just a giant light bulb.
Sure it might last 15 years, but that is going to be one sad looking picture.
Since plasma is basically a squished CRT, and depends on phospers for light , the claims for a twenty year life span for a plasma are ridiculous, to say the least.
Now come to find out that instead of explaining this(like the instructions of some tube sets did) they just designed them to get brighter as time goes along, to adjust for the degraded phospers.
Actually this is decent engineering, the con is not explaining it to consumers, and it
would be pretty silly to brag about the "great" black levels of plasma, then have to turn around and explain that these black levels will only last for a few years.
While the LCD that they claimed was "inferior" due to lesser blacks just kept chugging along with the same specs twenty years later that it came out of the box with.
This is big, because what set will you pay 2,000$ for?
A plasma that has a picture that , over time, will degrade? THAT IN FIVE YEARS(OR LESS) won't be up to spec?
Or an LCD that , twenty years later, will look pretty much the same!!!

[GMichael]

Or an LCD that , twenty years later, will look pretty much the same, but still not look as good as a 20 year old plasma.!!!

There, fixed that for ya.

[pixelthis]

You make me laugh so hard with your hair brained answers. First, the phosphors used in plasma are for color, not shades such as white, black and grey. The phosphors in a plasma display give off colored light when they are excited. Every pixel is made up of three separate subpixel cells, each with different colored phosphors. One subpixel has a red light phosphor, one subpixel has a green light phosphor and one subpixel has a blue light phosphor. These colors blend together to create the overall color of the pixel.
By varying the pulses of current flowing through the different cells, the control system can increase or decrease the intensity of each subpixel color to create hundreds of different combinations of red, green and blue. In this way, the control system can produce colors across the entire spectrum.

And thanks for posting this idiot savant answer, its proof that you are pretty much looking stuff up, have no instincts or experience for this(as much as you say, anyway) ,
and pretty much have no clue as to what is going on.
Get back to the data base.

[pixelthis]

There, fixed that for ya.

Thanks.
Get excited when I smell blood in the water.

[GMichael]

Thanks.
Get excited when I smell blood in the water.

You just love to rile people up every chance you get. It's ok. It makes for fun reading. As you were.

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE]

If this is TV 101, then why don't you get it? Plasmas do not have response time issues, they don't have pixels that twist and untwist.

NOPE.
They have phospers that fade noticeably within several years.
And since the laws of physics haven't changed that makes their life and
characteristics pretty much the same as an old CRT set

By the time your realize it is dimmer, you have owned it for years. Just like CRT

Like your wife noticed yopui were dimmer after a few years of marriage?
One reason I GOT into the habit of trading my TV sets every few years was the wear on the phospers, most couldn't tell, but I COULD.

This has zero to do with phosphers. The colors made fade, but it does not effect black or white levels.

When they get dimmer, and you have to adjust brightness,that affects blacks

That happens do far down the road it is pityful. Nothing like spinning up a false argument huh twistedpixel.

Phosper starts to degrade as soon as four years into the life of the set, sometimes sooner.
Since plasma is dimmer, and most prefer a brighter picture, and adjust brightness as a result, that will happen sooner than later

Need to go back and talk to your masters, talky, seems like they haven't mentioned this
to you....
OR ANYONE ELSE

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

[QUOTE=pixelthis]

NOPE.
They have phospers that fade noticeably within several years.
And since the laws of physics haven't changed that makes their life and
characteristics pretty much the same as an old CRT set

So how does this comment square with this?

These phospers degrade over time, their response time lenghtens.

Since we know phosphers fire immediatly, and plasma's don't have response time issues - either you are lying, or you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I am going for both here.

Like your wife noticed yopui were dimmer after a few years of marriage?
One reason I GOT into the habit of trading my TV sets every few years was the wear on the phospers, most couldn't tell, but I COULD.

The half life of a CRT is ten years when the set is properly calibrated. Even then you are able to compensate for falling saturation in colors, so this is just a BS answer. You don't even calibrate your sets, so how can you tell is nobody else can? More BS.

When they get dimmer, and you have to adjust brightness,that affects blacks

And when LCD's get dimmer, it affects color accuracy and saturation. So what is your false point?

Phosper starts to degrade as soon as four years into the life of the set, sometimes sooner.

That fade is completely unnoticable at four years. BS alert, BS alert!!!

Since plasma is dimmer, and most prefer a brighter picture, and adjust brightness as a result, that will happen sooner than later

How do you know most perfer brighter over more accurate respesentation of colors, and no panel lag? How do you know what most perfer, did you channel everyone who has purchased a set? BS, BS!!!

Need to go back and talk to your masters, talky, seems like they haven't mentioned this
to you....
OR ANYONE ELSE

You need to go back to the school you learned about televisions, and tell them your are twice as stupid after taking the class than your were before doing so.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And thanks for posting this idiot savant answer, its proof that you are pretty much looking stuff up, have no instincts or experience for this(as much as you say, anyway) ,
and pretty much have no clue as to what is going on.
Get back to the data base.

Oh really now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_display

Look under how plasma works stupid.

While we are at it

http://gizmodo.com/385708/giz-explains-plasma-tv-basics

http://www.plasmatvscience.org/theinnerworkings.html

[Smokey]

Seems to me this is a foward thinking process since you know the panel is going to fade over time.

But only after 1,500 hrs (9 months) of operation?

There must a design flaw in their 2009 plasma line up. The author mentioned that 2005 Panasonic plasma they had (beside Pioneer plasma) also showed no increase in black level.

[Woochifer]

But only after 1,500 hrs (9 months) of operation?

There must a design flaw in their 2009 plasma line up. The author mentioned that 2005 Panasonic plasma they had (beside Pioneer plasma) also showed no increase in black level.

First off, this is a firmware issue particular to Panasonic's 2009 NeoPDP line, which at that time was a brand new design (not simply an updated version of their existing panels). It does not affect the G12 series panels, and they've supposedly updated the firmware with the current series. I have one of the G11 series panels, and my calibration results are exactly the same now as they were a year ago.

What's disappointing to me is that Panasonic has not issued any kind of firmware update that allows the user to reset the rather aggressive black level adjustments built into the firmware. Even so, the black levels on those sets still outperform the vast majority of LCD sets.

[PeruvianSkies]

Sir T - 10
Pixel - 0 minus at least 100 for using all CAPS in inappropriate PLACES.

[Smokey]

First off, this is a firmware issue particular to Panasonic's 2009 NeoPDP line, which at that time was a brand new design (not simply an updated version of their existing panels). It does not affect the G12 series panels, and they've supposedly updated the firmware with the current series.

I re-read the article and looks like the 2010 models will also be effected by this. The company says its new 2010 models will incorporate a "more gradual change in black levels over time."

What's disappointing to me is that Panasonic has not issued any kind of firmware update that allows the user to reset the rather aggressive black level adjustments built into the firmware.

May be they won't as long as they are tied up in the courts. A firmware update might mean admission of guilt.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

But only after 1,500 hrs (9 months) of operation?

There must a design flaw in their 2009 plasma line up. The author mentioned that 2005 Panasonic plasma they had (beside Pioneer plasma) also showed no increase in black level.

First I want to thank Wooch for taking the words right out of my mouth
Secondly, we really do not know if this guys television was properly calibrated in the first place. If the contrast is set too high, you can have some deterioration very quickly, which is why it is recommended you properly calibrate your set.

In reading how they tested the televisions, one has got to wonder about a few things. One thing I learned from Joe Kane is when you test televisions for dynamic range, you must be in a completely black room with all black clothes on. Any white, or light colors in the room, the test becomes contaminated as the set whites reflect off of your clothing.

Lastly, this is not a panel issue, its a electronic processing issue which can be correct via a firmware update. That means if there is a problem, it can be corrected quickly when they get around to it.