Blu-ray players out selling HD-DVD despite...

[Mr Peabody]

According to data published by Video Business Blu-ray players are out selling HD-DVD despite Blu-ray having higher prices. Why?

Is it that Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Phillips, Samsung, carry more retail recognition for quality over Toshiba?

Is it the perception of Toshiba against everyone else and no one but super heroes win, when they are out numbered by, a lot!

I also saw Sony is putting Blu-ray drives in the computer line. No surprise here.

Could the buying off of Paramount have less sting than what we once thought?

Anyone else see any retail sales figures posted anywhere?

I hated to start yet another Blu-ray thread but I thought this was important enough to give everyone a chance to chime in.

[musicman1999]

Interesting info.I am getting closer to a purchase i think,everything still going well with yours?

bill

[Mr Peabody]

The player is doing fine but I can't get Samsung to answer any emails. I was worried one night, I was getting sound with no picture. After checking everything, for some reason I unplugged the HDMI cable and plugged it back in and that cured the problem. I pushed on the connection to make sure it was secure before that, I'm not sure why taking it out and putting back in did anything. Maybe it was a coincidence. I see a lot of new players coming out. All of this upcoming generation that's coming out seemed to be well equipped. I haven't seen any specs on SD upsampling yet. That was important to me, to get good DVD playback for my existing collection.

I just got my 5 free BR movies in today.
Blazing Saddles
Stealth
Babble - I haven't seen this movie yet.
Transporter 2
Chicken Little

This gives me a total of 8 BR titles. I'm on my way!

[musicman1999]

I have heard these stories about HDMI before,various units having handshake issues.I am still unsure about which player to get,Home Theatre Magazine has a story this month about ths Sony,Panasonic and the Samsung 2nd gen players.They felt the Panasonic had the best audio and the video performance was close.They also felt the PS3 was still the best deal,but that does n ot work for me as i need 5.1 analog outs for high def audio.The new Pioneer looks interesting as it also is network compatible,however it is a little more money,$999 cdn.A local store had it on sale last week for $849 but the sale was over before i heard about it.

bill

[pixelthis]

I have heard these stories about HDMI before,various units having handshake issues.I am still unsure about which player to get,Home Theatre Magazine has a story this month about ths Sony,Panasonic and the Samsung 2nd gen players.They felt the Panasonic had the best audio and the video performance was close.They also felt the PS3 was still the best deal,but that does n ot work for me as i need 5.1 analog outs for high def audio.The new Pioneer looks interesting as it also is network compatible,however it is a little more money,$999 cdn.A local store had it on sale last week for $849 but the sale was over before i heard about it.

bill

The Sony at 499$ seems the best bet. I beleive (but am not sure) that it has 5,1 out.
The picture is outstanding. AND A BARGAIN.
But I am going to wait, HD disc is evolutionary, not revolutionary (that was DVD) and
I dont want to give up my one 5.1 input for something that wont play SACD.
Yeah, HD on disc looks great, but the difference between a really good 480p DVD
and HD isn't great enough to make it a musthaverightnow.
On Talledega Nights I even saw video noise on the empty bleachers (moire patterns)
As for Blu-ray outselling hddvd, it seems even the great unwashed smell the stench of death about toshibas new toy, in that respect they seem more aware of the inevitable
more than some of the "knowledgeable" on this board

[Mr Peabody]

The Panasonic BD-P10a was going to be what I bought until I could not get one when I wanted one. So after reading a DVD shoot out article Westcott posted that said the Samsung had the best SD playback bar none and finding one for $459.00 on Amazon, I jumped on it. It lacks a lot of the new stuff but it's features I can do with out for a while. The Sony S500 will be the one to look at, as well as the Panasonic. I can't remember where the Sony price will be at for the 500. Samsung also has a few new models and the entry level will offer the HD audio stuff with analog outs.

I actually have been satisfied with the improvement in just the digital audio output of my Samsung.

[musicman1999]

I am not concerned about sd playback as my Sim Audio will handle that just fine.I had planned to wait for a high end player but they seem a long way off if ever so i am just going to grab something soon as long as it has analog outs as my pre/pro has no HDMI.Anthem has an upgrade for the AVM-30 to AVM-50 spec that adds 4 in and 1 out HDMI and a Gennum 1080p video processor,but it is about $2500,so maybe next year for that,maybe.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

If you have 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs, I don't think I'd lay out that kind of money just for HDMI.

Are you wanting a high end Blu-ray for the best possible video or are you hoping for some type of audio disc playback? I don't know how much better the Denon will be but it had better offer something more for $2k. If I remember correctly I believe the Elite player is supposed to be a step up. Sony is also putting out a better built unit under it's ES line. But are you paying for performance or just a more rigid cabinet. It probably will be a little further down the road but Marantz is also putting a BR unit out and I hear retail price is up there.

[Woochifer]

We'll see how the Paramount/Dreamworks switchover affects player sales. Until that announcement, HD-DVD only had Bourne Ultimatum to look forward to among the highest grossing summer releases. Now that HD-DVD can add high grossing titles like Shrek 3 and Transformers to its exclusive release roster, Blu-ray's no longer a no-brainer for the mass market though it still retains an exclusivity advantage because of the box office performance for Sony, Fox, and Disney.

Under the market conditions that existed prior to their going over to HD-DVD, I think it was inevitable that Blu-ray would surpass HD-DVD in standalone player sales even with higher prices. With a sizable studio support advantage, Blu-ray had the luxury of justifying a price premium over HD-DVD. HD-DVD had a clear disadvantage in title availability (particularly with new releases), and was forced to prop up market share by dropping prices.

Now that HD-DVD has cut into Blu-ray's studio support advantage, Blu-ray is in less of a position to justify significantly higher prices. At the same time, HD-DVD is in a less dire situation, so they might not see a need to keep pushing prices further down (especially if Toshiba indeed continues to lose money on each HD-DVD player sold).

On the flip side, I think your point about brand recognition should not be underestimated. More brands and more models equates to more retail shelf space (at least with electronics stores) and visibility. Even if Toshiba by itself still sells about the same number of standalone players as Sony, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, JVC, LG, Hitachi, and Mitsubishi, their model lineup simply occupies less shelf space than the much bigger assortment of Blu-ray players.

Toshiba is on its own until the off-brand stuff from China begins arriving in earnest. OTOH, Blu-ray has multiple companies marketing their own hardware, and clamoring to get their players onto store shelves. Panasonic is jointly marketing their Blu-ray players and new 1080p plasma sets with Disney's Platinum Series Blu-ray launch, and Sharp has begun cobranding their newly introduced Blu-ray player and LCD HDTVs under the AQUOS label.

[drseid]

At the same time, HD-DVD is in a less dire situation, so they might not see a need to keep pushing prices further down (especially if Toshiba indeed continues to lose money on each HD-DVD player sold).

Toshiba is on its own until the off-brand stuff from China begins arriving in earnest.

Well, it may not be from China (but might be manufactured there for all I know), but Toshiba does not really have to lower the retail price of their players in the short run unless they want to because a new manufacturer (Venturer) is releasing a $199 MSRP player for Q4 this year (and many on forum groups are expecting a possible $99 selling price around holiday time -- I am thinking more along the $149 level myself). This also puts some doubt on the loss-leader claims by some of Toshiba's own offerings. I don't believe they ever were losing money on these things, but no doubt would have loved to earn much more margin than they did... Link to brief press release on the Venturer SHD700 HD DVD player from August follows....

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/venturer...vd-player/4700

and a follow-up link to the pricing announcement...

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/venturer...vd-player/4700

---Dave

[Mr Peabody]

I did read some where too that there were supposed to be some Chinese HD-DVD players hit. What's interesting, manufacturers like Daewoo and Funai are coming out with BR players but the projected price isn't that much cheaper than some of the others. But things could change when they hit the shelf. No one will buy them at the same price when they can get a name brand.

[musicman1999]

I read up on the 2 new sony players,the ES player looks kind of nice.Some of Sony's ES line are decent gear that maybe one to look at,anyway I think I will wait for the gen3 players
before i move.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

So Bill, which one are you going to buy, this fall line will be gen 3.

Sony: SD-1 (gen 1), S300 (gen 2), S500 (gen 3)

Samsung: bd-p1000 (gen 1), bd-p1200 (gen 2), bd-p1400 (gen 3), well actually bd-p1400 is there dual format but they do have a gen 3 to take the place of the 1200, I just forgot the model, I'm wanting to say 2400.

The new Panasonics are gen 3 as well, I just don't know all their models. The bd-p10a is the gen 2.

I know, you meant to say gen 4 You just aren't ready to jump.

[musicman1999]

Maybe you are right,this is getting confusing.Just when i think i have made up my mind something pops up and changes it.The fall schedule has some good looking stuff on it,such as Blade Runner and the Kuprick collection could sway me,but i am still looking for a new amp as well so that could change things as well.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

Bill, I was looking around some for you and www.spearitsound.com has a $3,995.00 msrp McCormack 5x125 amp new for $3,199.00. I also saw several Proceed amps on Audiogon under $2k. There was also an EAD Powermaster but I forgot the price. Krell was over the $3k mark. Several Bryston as well but I'm not that familiar with their line up.

[musicman1999]

Thanks man,i will check them out.I have never heard McCormick gear but they have a very good reputation.There is a used Arcam P35/3 that i know is coming up for sale next month,don't know the price yet,add another P35 or even a P90 and that might be a pretty good set up.I also went to the local Sony store to inquire about the new Bluray players and they had heard about the 500 but not the ES.

bill

[hermanv]

If you mean McCormack audio, they are owned by Conrad Johnson. I would assume that C-J has shared some expertise with McCormack who already made a decent product.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

According to data published by Video Business Blu-ray players are out selling HD-DVD despite Blu-ray having higher prices. Why?

Is it that Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Phillips, Samsung, carry more retail recognition for quality over Toshiba?

Is it the perception of Toshiba against everyone else and no one but super heroes win, when they are out numbered by, a lot!

I also saw Sony is putting Blu-ray drives in the computer line. No surprise here.

Could the buying off of Paramount have less sting than what we once thought?

Anyone else see any retail sales figures posted anywhere?

I hated to start yet another Blu-ray thread but I thought this was important enough to give everyone a chance to chime in.

Sales for this week were 68-32% in Bluray's favor.

Personally I don't think the Paramount?Dreamworks deal is going to have the effect that the HD DVD PG expects. All one has to do is look at Universal HDM performance over the last 15 months or so. The inablility to release any of Spielbergs movies has kept their sales below that of all the other studios. Universal is not doing well at all in their catalog sales, and seems to only get traction with date and day releases with the DVD. Not one of Universal titles were in the top ten sales tier this week on NDP. And neither was any titles from Paramount as well

Paramount cannot release any Amblin picture titles, and no Spielberg titles. These would be the only catalog titles that would do exceptionally well at this point in the formats history. Top Gun which is supposed to be a pretty hot title for release this week, finished behind the Bluray version of 300 which has now sold 250k copies on bluray only. Small change compared to the DVD which sold millions, but a big deal for both of the new formats.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, it may not be from China (but might be manufactured there for all I know), but Toshiba does not really have to lower the retail price of their players in the short run unless they want to because a new manufacturer (Venturer) is releasing a $199 MSRP player for Q4 this year (and many on forum groups are expecting a possible $99 selling price around holiday time -- I am thinking more along the $149 level myself). This also puts some doubt on the loss-leader claims by some of Toshiba's own offerings. I don't believe they ever were losing money on these things, but no doubt would have loved to earn much more margin than they did... Link to brief press release on the Venturer SHD700 HD DVD player from August follows....

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/venturer...vd-player/4700

and a follow-up link to the pricing announcement...

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/venturer...vd-player/4700

---Dave

Dave,
Toshiba is losing money on every player. Isuppli did a parts breakdown on the A1, XA1, A2 and XA2, and they were losing their shirts on the A1 and XA1, and XA2. They are not losing quite so much with the A2.

[bobsticks]

Sales for this week were 68-32% in Bluray's favor.

Personally I don't think the Paramount?Dreamworks deal is going to have the effect that the HD DVD PG expects. All one has to do is look at Universal HDM performance over the last 15 months or so. The inablility to release any of Spielbergs movies has kept their sales below that of all the other studios. Universal is not doing well at all in their catalog sales, and seems to only get traction with date and day releases with the DVD. Not one of Universal titles were in the top ten sales tier this week on NDP. And neither was any titles from Paramount as well

Paramount cannot release any Amblin picture titles, and no Spielberg titles. These would be the only catalog titles that would do exceptionally well at this point in the formats history. Top Gun which is supposed to be a pretty hot title for release this week, finished behind the Bluray version of 300 which has now sold 250k copies on bluray only. Small change compared to the DVD which sold millions, but a big deal for both of the new formats.

Personally, I tend to agree with Sir T.'s assessment of the studio's effect on the overall picture. I'm leaning toward going BlueRay as I find increasingly fewer HD-DVD titles that pique my interest.

I do however have a question (one of many). If, as stated on a previous thread, Wal-Mart and the online concerns don't report sales figures, doesn't this significantly skew any data? It seems to me that these venues would be more appealing to low dollar and price-point conscious consumers and might, if only slightly, even the sales rates a bit between the formats and their players. I'm thinking particularly of the XBOX 360 and the add-on. Thoughts?

Hey T., any shortcomings of the PS3 that I need to be aware of?

[PeruvianSkies]

Personally, I tend to agree with Sir T.'s assessment of the studio's effect on the overall picture. I'm leaning toward going BlueRay as I find increasingly fewer HD-DVD titles that pique my interest.

I do however have a question (one of many). If, as stated on a previous thread, Wal-Mart and the online concerns don't report sales figures, doesn't this significantly skew any data? It seems to me that these venues would be more appealing to low dollar and price-point conscious consumers and might, if only slightly, even the sales rates a bit between the formats and their players. I'm thinking particularly of the XBOX 360 and the add-on. Thoughts?

Hey T., any shortcomings of the PS3 that I need to be aware of?

I still think that Blu-ray will win just because it's cooler to say..."bloooo raaaay" Rather than the obligatory H-DEE-DEE-VEE-DEE. It's harder to say and I think more people like the color blue than red. Plus PS3 has better marketing and their players are ready to go without any mods.

[Mr Peabody]

I was out at Costco Saturday and noticed they were selling both software formats. HD-DVD's were single titles where the Blu-ray were 4 movies in a bundle for $85.00. I haven't checked to see if they had any players yet. The margin is so low on electronics even clubs like Costco usually can't save you anything above the other mass merchants.

[Groundbeef]

Sales for this week were 68-32% in Bluray's favor.

Personally I don't think the Paramount?Dreamworks deal is going to have the effect that the HD DVD PG expects. All one has to do is look at Universal HDM performance over the last 15 months or so. .

Lets see next week, after the Transformers comes out. Over on the PS3/BluRay boards everyone about soiled themselves when they realized it was going to be HD-DVD.

Percentage of sales should be a bit skewed next week. What came out last week? I don't think much for HD-DVD.

[pixelthis]

HHGREG is selling the sony blu player for 399$, which is the cheapest I have seen it.
With five free movies thats under 300 bucks for actual cost
When the actual cost of a blu player hits 250, tosh will have an even bigger problem than they do now

[drseid]

Dave,
Toshiba is losing money on every player. Isuppli did a parts breakdown on the A1, XA1, A2 and XA2, and they were losing their shirts on the A1 and XA1, and XA2. They are not losing quite so much with the A2.

I am not familiar with Isuppli, so I can't comment on them specifically. I will say that only Toshiba knows what their true costs are. Many can make educated guesses by consensus parts cost data (Apple, Sony and many other companies are subjected to this all the time), and some may be right, but I would say it is all speculation.

I still maintain that is seems unlikely that Venturer would sell their players at a loss (although again, not impossible if they are using a quick market penetration strategy at an artificially low price point). If so, it stands to reason that Toshiba is not losing money on their players either (as they cost more than the Venturer). Both can't be proven by me, as I have no connection professionally to either company, so I am not privy to their repective true costs. I am just making a similar kind of educated guess based on logical company reasoning.

---Dave