need pre/pro and amp help........

[krich644]

I am looking for a pre/pro and amp to replace my Marantz sr8000 av receiver. I have polk LSI 15's maians, LSIC center, and LSI Fx surrounds. My sub is a Def tech super cube Reference. i listen to movies and music 50/50. I need a pre/pro and amp that will go well with my system. HELP!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Budget is $5-6k

[Mr Peabody]

If I had your budget here's what I'd listen to for possible purchase. First I would give the Primare A/V integrated a run at $4k. That would be the piece the separates would have to beat, it's great, a real value at that price. Then Classe' has a pre/pro at $3k that I would think is very good. I don't know if amplification would put you out of budget. This piece doesn't have video switching but that's not a problem with most modern TV monitors, they offer several inputs. Then I would take another listen to the Anthem pre/pro at $3k. Their amps are reasonably priced and I'm sure you could stay in budget. I remember they weren't especially bass heavy but still had a nice sound. I personally like keeping in the same brand with separates. Same brands tend to have better synergy. If you have a Krell dealer in your area they are having a trade up special, you can trade your receiver for a Krell Showcase processor and still spend about $3k, again with an amp will most likely be out of budget, unless you go with another amp less expensive with the Krell pre/pro.

Not on my list but Rotel, Adcom & B&K would be in your budget.

Don't let these guys on here try to talk you into buying another receiver. As you do some listening research I think you will discover that the preamp section is one of the most important components in your system, second only to your source. I haven't heard a receiver yet that could match a separate preamp for sound quality. This is a general statement because obviously I haven't heard every model receiver nor preamp. The Arcam receiver is very good sonically. Most here will claim your speakers are the most important component but speakers are the finish line for your music signal, if it didn't start good and was maintained well, what will cross the finish line? Not much. Your source creates the signal not your speakers.

[musicguy04]

All those units, the Primare, the Classe SSP-30MkII, the Anthem AVM20, and the Krell Showcase. Also add in the Parasound Halo C2 and anything else. How do the different pre amplifiers compare in sound quality? I'm not in the market for one right now, but I will be in a little bit. I want stunning home theater, but I guess all units in this price range can do that. Which will provide the absolute best sound (if clarity, detail, and accuracy are the most important aspects) and have the best DACs for digital sources?

I don't care about matching brands, as I will 99% use a different amp to drive my speakers. How do the DACs in these pre/pro's compare to the DAC's in the Arcam CD73? How about an external DAC such as the Benchmark DAC1?

[mtrycraft]

I am looking for a pre/pro and amp to replace my Marantz sr8000 av receiver. I have polk LSI 15's maians, LSIC center, and LSI Fx surrounds. My sub is a Def tech super cube Reference. i listen to movies and music 50/50. I need a pre/pro and amp that will go well with my system. HELP!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Budget is $5-6k

What's wrong with the Marantz?

[psonic]

What's wrong with the Marantz?

Whats wrong with wanting something better?

If one has the money to spare, whats wrong with the extra current delivery, lower distortion, higher damping factor of a more expensive design? Do you actually think the 100wpc rating of recievers means the amp section put the same overall power and finesse of larger heavier separates with same rating? Have you listened to 100wpc receivers drive heavy loads like Martin Logan or Dynaudio?

[krich644]

What's wrong with the Marantz?

Nothing is wrong with my marantz!

I have listened to better systems than mine and they have always included separates and now that I can afford to, I want to improve on what I’m currently listening to.

[Resident Loser]

..."I have listened to better systems than mine and they have always included separates and now that I can afford to, I want to improve on what I’m currently listening to..."

"better"? What is it that makes them better? Contrary to some of the hogwash spewed about the place, loudspeakers and the environment they are required to operate in, are the most important factors in what you hear...Isn't it possible that those other "systems" have had more care taken in their set-up and calibration which results in a perceived quality level?...or perhaps you simply prefer the sound of the other loudspeakers...any single piece of gear that imparts a "sound" to the signal is in reality a distortion and a departure from the old and time-tested ideal of "straight wire with gain"...you should really try to determine, using YOUR ears and YOUR preferences, what is it about these other systems that you find appealing. Throwing money at a "problem" is not a particularly efficient way of dispensing with it, and most certainly if you don't know why the "problem" is there to begin with.

I believe in separate components. They are much more flexible, that does not mean however, they are THE answer. I also believe HT and it's variants to be a waste of space.

Keep in mind, most of the gear in this price range will be of a minimalist mindset, eschewing things like tone controls...but that's OK...you can spend the rest of your life searching for the Grail("better"-ness) by endlessly auditioning interconnects and speaker cables to take their place...and then of course there's at least five channels of amplification to deal with if you go with separates and there are always tubes(valves) to consider, so you'll need more AC sources and after-market IEC/CE sanctioned power cords, power line conditioners, hospital-grade, cryo-treated outlets(with copper contacts lovingly crafted from ores transported by Peruvian virgins), a dedicated circuit and breaker...cable bridges, marble plinths, sand bags, lead shot and maybe a picture of "Fatty" Arbuckle to grace your listening area(I hear tell it does wonders for the mid-range)...so much for your budget!

jimHJJ(...just some food for thought...)

[psonic]

"better"? What is it that makes them better? Contrary to some of the hogwash spewed about the place, loudspeakers and the environment they are required to operate in, are the most important factors in what you hear.

Again I say Whats wrong with wanting something better?

If one has the money to spare, whats wrong with the extra current delivery, lower distortion, higher damping factor of a more expensive design? Do you actually think the 100wpc rating of recievers means the amp section put the same overall power and finesse of larger heavier separates with same rating? Have you listened to 100wpc receivers drive heavy loads like Martin Logan or Dynaudio? How about large floorstanders like he has? What about a receivers smaller power supply & caps, lack of discreet output stages, noisier preamp stages and higher THD???? This has no bearing on sound, especially when driving a large speaker?

Beyond that, and more importantly, there are people who post here, only popping out to dispute or insult a nice guys intentions, and twist it into "why are you doing that? For those individuals, what is wrong with respecting what a friendly guy is asking of us? He did not ask to critique his decision, he has kindly asked for recommended preamp processors - if you don't have this to offer why post or insult the guy on his decisioning? Because that is what is looks like to me..

PLEASE IGNORE ANTAGONISTIC INDIVIDUALS LIKE RESIDENT LOSER, MTRYCRAFT WHO ARE NOT HERE TO KINDLY ANSWER THE QUESTION. AS YOU CAN SEE THEY ONLY WANT TO BATTLE YOUR PREMISE...WARNING TO THESE INDIVIDUALS - THIS IS AN AUDIO AMPS/PREAMPS BOARD - NOT SPEAKER PLACEMENT, RECEIVER, CALIBRATION, SETUP, ETC. THE HOME THEATER BOARD IS BETTER SUITED TO RESPONSES, QUESTIONS SUCH AS YOURS.

[psonic]

BTW, I respect your desicion to go with separates and offer your speakers both more and cleaner current. I recommend B&K, the Reference 50 I have auditioned and liked. Definately under your budget and worth a listen. FWIW I enjoy their amps as well...

http://www.bkcomp.com/ref50.asp

[Resident Loser]

...What and how did I dispute anything?

Did I forbid him to want or purchase anything "better"? Whatever "better" means.

I advised the poster to identify the qualities he likes in these other systems and try to emulate them within his own before upgrading to something that may not produce the desired results. This to you is a disputational, critical or insulting response? This indicates to me that you barely habla Ingles much less the catch-phrase laden jargon you seem so adept at tossing about...

BTW Einstein, in case you were unaware of this simple fact, the audio and/or HT chain is quite dependent on a myriad of devices working in concert...there is no real delineation between them or any of the individual boards @ this site...crossovers can and do occur HERE and in actual practice.

WARNING: I WOULDN"T TAKE PSONIC"S ADVICE ON A DARE>>>IF IT WEREN"T FOR HIS AUTONOMIC NERVOUS SYSTEM HE WOULDN"T KNOW HOW TO BREATHE!!!

jimHJJ(...Aw shucks, did I hit a nerve and burst your little "Audiophile in Wonderland" mythology...)

Addendum: thanx for mentioning myself and Mtry in the same context, it is truly an honor! Now I know I've made it!

[psonic]

...What and how did I dispute anything?

Did I forbid him to want or purchase anything "better"? Whatever "better" means.

I advised the poster to identify the qualities he likes in these other systems and try to emulate them within his own before upgrading to something that may not produce the desired results. This to you is a disputational, critical or insulting response? This indicates to me that you barely habla Ingles much less the catch-phrase laden jargon you seem so adept at tossing about...

BTW Einstein, in case you were unaware of this simple fact, the audio and/or HT chain is quite dependent on a myriad of devices working in concert...there is no real delineation between them or any of the individual boards @ this site...crossovers can and do occur HERE and in actual practice.

WARNING: I WOULDN"T TAKE PSONIC"S ADVICE ON A DARE>>>IF IT WEREN"T FOR HIS AUTONOMIC NERVOUS SYSTEM HE WOULDN"T KNOW HOW TO BREATHE!!!

jimHJJ(...Aw shucks, did I hit a nerve and burst your little "Audiophile in Wonderland" mythology...)

Addendum: thanx for mentioning myself and Mtry in the same context, it is truly an honor! Now I know I've made it!

You disputed his motives, very uncalled for, that is an insult...in case you are blind he is asking for recommendations, not setup or your opinion of home theater. Again, wrong forum and completely unrelated to his post.

Yes I am audio enthusiast, I thought that was why were here, not to bash or question ones motives or moves.

BTW you have not answered my questions...all you do is start attacking me now, shows us a lot about you...

Again no answer to my questions, see my questions were directed specifically at what he is concerned about - which was deserving of straight answers from you since you were there to dispute his move not recommend a pre/pro.

Again,

If one has the money to spare, whats wrong with the extra current delivery, lower distortion, higher damping factor of a more expensive design? Do you actually think the 100wpc rating of recievers means the amp section put the same overall power and finesse of larger heavier separates with same rating? Have you listened to 100wpc receivers drive heavy loads like Martin Logan or Dynaudio? How about large floorstanders like he has? What about a receivers smaller power supply & caps, lack of discreet output stages, noisier preamp stages and higher THD???? This has no bearing on sound, especially when driving a large speaker?

[Resident Loser]

...Am I restricted in what I can or cannot address in my response?

Yes, he is asking for recommendations...I gave him mine...if he doesn't like it well, that's one thing...he can ignore it...if you don't, that's TS...I'll validate your TFB card upon departure.

I can't believe how anyone could make any sort of informed decision about a sizable expenditure based on the flavor of the moment as provided in these forums...whether it be speakers, cables, electronics, whatever!

And YOU still don't get it...it's called research, it's called system analysis...a rational methodology...it's not just about throwing money at things. And, prithee, what was wrong with mtry asking what was wrong with Marantz...is your mind so enfeelbled by inhalation of green marker that you have become paranoid and delusional, seeing ulterior motives in all questions?

And FYI, I have a vintage HK Citation 19 amp, broadband, high current 100wpc amp driving difficult speakers that sucked the life out of a 60wpc integrated in a puff of green smoke, so yes I'm fully aware of everything I need to be. SO...kindly take your condescending jargon and stuff it back in your pie-hole...I have guitar picks older than you!

jimHJJ(...if you can't stand the heat, etc...)

[psonic]

...Am I restricted in what I can or cannot address in my response?

I can't believe how anyone could make any sort of informed decision about a sizable expenditure based on the flavor of the moment as provided in these forums...whether it be speakers, cables, electronics, whatever! And YOU still don't get it...it's called research, it's called system analysis...a rational methodology...it's not just about throwing money at things.

And, prithee, what was wrong with mtry asking what was wrong with Marantz...

I kindly did, as did others, advise him to go listen...that would include an in-home audition vs. the Marantz. He could then decide for himself based on what he hears. System analysis and setup is important, agreed, but it doesn't make up for a sub-par amplifier, especially with towers. And again, outside the context of the original question. I am quite aware of and fond of vintage gear, receivers included. I know there are a few very high dollar receivers that can deliver current in difficult loads much like separates. I happen to know for a fact the newer Marantz will not control those speakers like your H/K would, but that is beyond the scope of his question also. And, he is not using a vintage H/K. And, the vintage H/K is not ideal for H/T. He obviously knows the pros and cons of modern mass-market receivers vs. separates in controlling speakers in dynamic music and with varying speaker loads. His judgement in looking at separates is justified & there is nothing wrong at all with asking for recommended components as he did, however questioning his judgement and decisioning (in a round about or semi-direct way) as you and Mtry attempted to do is not respectful to a member...along with your personal attacks which is nothing less than weak and lacking in class.


krich644, I reiterate, IMO the in-home audition is the best bet. I don't see any reason a good dealer wouldn't loan you a pre/pro and amp for a weekend demo. Best part is, it's free! Enjoy and as always never let anyone get in the way of what you have researched and want to do...

[Resident Loser]

..."...you should really try to determine, using YOUR ears and YOUR preferences, what is it about these other systems that you find appealing. Throwing money at a "problem" is not a particularly efficient way of dispensing with it, and most certainly if you don't know why the "problem" is there to begin with."

That was part of my response to the poster...did you ignore that...go back and re-read it without the "shoot the messenger attitude"

Whatever "personal attacks" emerged resulted from your BOLDFACED assault and WARNING, so don't start crying now...

jimHJJ(...don't start what you can't finish...)

[psonic]

..."...you should really try to determine, using YOUR ears and YOUR preferences, what is it about these other systems that you find appealing. Throwing money at a "problem" is not a particularly efficient way of dispensing with it, and most certainly if you don't know why the "problem" is there to begin with."

That was part of my response to the poster...did you ignore that...go back and re-read it without the "shoot the messenger attitude"

Whatever "personal attacks" emerged resulted from your BOLDFACED assault and WARNING, so don't start crying now...

jimHJJ(...don't start what you can't finish...)

So you are assuming he does not know already what about separates he finds appealing or what the "problem" is? How can you assume this? How can you assume he does not know about H/T setup? Asking for a recommended pre/pro does not lead one to this conclusion. He obviously knows, he's asking for recommended components to audition. Is it that hard for you to figure out he wants something with lots of clean current delivery for his towers?

As for the "throwing money at" and "if you don't know" bits - taking recommends IS part of research and analysis in shopping for stereo gear. We don't run out and buy the first recommend, it's just something that goes on one's audition list. The boldface warning was to let him know your not here to help with his need; making assumptions about his knowledge and questioning his motive. Based on that the warning statement is factual.

[Mr Peabody]

All those units, the Primare, the Classe SSP-30MkII, the Anthem AVM20, and the Krell Showcase. Also add in the Parasound Halo C2 and anything else. How do the different pre amplifiers compare in sound quality? I'm not in the market for one right now, but I will be in a little bit. I want stunning home theater, but I guess all units in this price range can do that. Which will provide the absolute best sound (if clarity, detail, and accuracy are the most important aspects) and have the best DACs for digital sources?

I don't care about matching brands, as I will 99% use a different amp to drive my speakers. How do the DACs in these pre/pro's compare to the DAC's in the Arcam CD73? How about an external DAC such as the Benchmark DAC1?

All of these would sound very good and which is best depends on what you like. I haven't A/B all of these side by side but I'd think any of them would sound better than the Arcam in music playback of CD's and the Arcam is very good. Typically, Krell is said to be detailed and a bit on the cold side, Primare has awesome steering of sound effects for HT, for music their sound stage is smaller more intimate and warmer than Krell. I have not heard the Classe pre/pro yet, I have only heard some older model cdp & amps which I thought sounded very nice. You'll have to give them a listen and see which tickles your fancy. What is best is very subjective, we will empower you to make that decision. You may not be in the market now but it wouldn't hurt to start listening and learning now.

[krich644]

..."I have listened to better systems than mine and they have always included separates and now that I can afford to, I want to improve on what I’m currently listening to..."

"better"? What is it that makes them better? Contrary to some of the hogwash spewed about the place, loudspeakers and the environment they are required to operate in, are the most important factors in what you hear...Isn't it possible that those other "systems" have had more care taken in their set-up and calibration which results in a perceived quality level?...or perhaps you simply prefer the sound of the other loudspeakers...any single piece of gear that imparts a "sound" to the signal is in reality a distortion and a departure from the old and time-tested ideal of "straight wire with gain"...you should really try to determine, using YOUR ears and YOUR preferences, what is it about these other systems that you find appealing. Throwing money at a "problem" is not a particularly efficient way of dispensing with it, and most certainly if you don't know why the "problem" is there to begin with.

I believe in separate components. They are much more flexible, that does not mean however, they are THE answer. I also believe HT and it's variants to be a waste of space.

Keep in mind, most of the gear in this price range will be of a minimalist mindset, eschewing things like tone controls...but that's OK...you can spend the rest of your life searching for the Grail("better"-ness) by endlessly auditioning interconnects and speaker cables to take their place...and then of course there's at least five channels of amplification to deal with if you go with separates and there are always tubes(valves) to consider, so you'll need more AC sources and after-market IEC/CE sanctioned power cords, power line conditioners, hospital-grade, cryo-treated outlets(with copper contacts lovingly crafted from ores transported by Peruvian virgins), a dedicated circuit and breaker...cable bridges, marble plinths, sand bags, lead shot and maybe a picture of "Fatty" Arbuckle to grace your listening area(I hear tell it does wonders for the mid-range)...so much for your budget!

jimHJJ(...just some food for thought...)

The systems I am referring to are pre/pro/ and amp that I have listened to in my home with my speakers in an A/B with my Marantz. I have listened to the Parasound halo C2 and A51 two-day loner from my brother and B&K Ref 50 and 2007 amp dealer loner from local dealer. (Bi- amping my mains with the two additional channels). Both systems wear sonicly superior to my Marantz in my opinion and both pre/pros offered greater set up flexibility, bass management, ETC). I was just wondering if any of my fellow A/V enthusiasts could offer any recommendations. Although I was pleased with both systems, I would like to listen to other systems before I spend my money.

Thanks for your input,
Krich

[krich644]

So you are assuming he does not know already what about separates he finds appealing or what the "problem" is? How can you assume this? How can you assume he does not know about H/T setup? Asking for a recommended pre/pro does not lead one to this conclusion. He obviously knows, he's asking for recommended components to audition. Is it that hard for you to figure out he wants something with lots of clean current delivery for his towers?

As for the "throwing money at" and "if you don't know" bits - taking recommends IS part of research and analysis in shopping for stereo gear. We don't run out and buy the first recommend, it's just something that goes on one's audition list. The boldface warning was to let him know your not here to help with his need; making assumptions about his knowledge and questioning his motive. Based on that the warning statement is factual.

Psonic, as a new member of this forum I would like to thank you for your help with my?. I am not an A/V rookie; I just like to know what my fellow enthusiast have to offer from time to time. I would altimetry let nothing but my ears choose my components for me. However knowing that my hobbies is a love of sound and image that is sheared with many, I want to hear what other have to say, suggest, or recommend.

Thank you, krich

[mtrycraft]

Whats wrong with wanting something better?

Better what? In what respect? Or, more expensive is the answer?

whats wrong with the extra current delivery,

Nothing if the speaker loaddemands it.

lower distortion,

Can you hear lower distortion? Really? Under bias controlled conditions? Or, just speculating here.

higher damping factor

Higher than what? Meaningless. Audio voodoo.

of a more expensive design?

Is this rocket science? Really? Evidence please.

Do you actually think the 100wpc rating of recievers means the amp section put the same overall power

If the amp is rated for 100watts RMS inot a load it better deliver that power.

and finesse of larger heavier separates with same rating?

What finess? Are you speculating about something you have no clue about?

Have you listened to 100wpc receivers drive heavy loads like Martin Logan or Dynaudio?

If the receiver is designed for the load, it will drive it. If not designed for the load, it will not. Rather simple. Too simple.

[mtrycraft]

The systems I am referring to are pre/pro/ and amp that I have listened to in my home with my speakers in an A/B with my Marantz. I have listened to the Parasound halo C2 and A51 two-day loner from my brother and B&K Ref 50 and 2007 amp dealer loner from local dealer. (Bi- amping my mains with the two additional channels). Both systems wear sonicly superior to my Marantz in my opinion and both pre/pros offered greater set up flexibility, bass management, ETC). I was just wondering if any of my fellow A/V enthusiasts could offer any recommendations. Although I was pleased with both systems, I would like to listen to other systems before I spend my money.

Thanks for your input,
Krich

But how reliable, bias free was your comparison? Doesn't sound like it was a fair comparison at all. Did you level match the setups to 0.1dB spl? Did you compare under bias controls? If not, your listeing is rather unreliable. Who knows what the reality was.

[mtrycraft]

PLEASE IGNORE ANTAGONISTIC INDIVIDUALS LIKE RESIDENT LOSER, MTRYCRAFT WHO ARE NOT HERE TO KINDLY ANSWER THE QUESTION. AS YOU CAN SEE THEY ONLY WANT TO BATTLE YOUR PREMISE...WARNING TO THESE INDIVIDUALS - THIS IS AN AUDIO AMPS/PREAMPS BOARD - NOT SPEAKER PLACEMENT, RECEIVER, CALIBRATION, SETUP, ETC. THE HOME THEATER BOARD IS BETTER SUITED TO RESPONSES, QUESTIONS SUCH AS YOURS.

What's the matter, your audio faith is threatened? Your beliefe system is so fragile that it cannot stand up to questioning and scrutiny?
Perhaps if you were better equipped, you would not need to wanr people but can stand on your feet and support yourself.

[topspeed]

Marty,

Were you planning on answering Krich's post at some time or were you just going to start wars with everyone that tried to offer their opinion? Just curious...

[mtrycraft]

Marty,

Were you planning on answering Krich's post at some time or were you just going to start wars with everyone that tried to offer their opinion? Just curious...

His post has been answerd well enough. But some other posters here need responding to as well. Is that OK by you?

[musicguy04]

I have been experimenting with different systems and auditioning different systems for about a month or so, and here is what I have to say. By far, speakers and speaker positioning make the most difference, hands down. The CD player/source component does make a difference. The quality of the tranport (most players are pretty good at this), the DAC and the analog output stage does make a difference. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns, and that depends on how much $ you've got and what sound you like. Cables (in my opinion) don't make that much difference, as long as they're thick and better than the cheap zip cord that comes with the components. Video cables do make a difference, but no need to go crazy. Processor is basically similar to DAC quality and analog output stage quality.
The amp does make a difference in its ability to accurately amplify the source. It should have a very fast response time and decent feedback, although different people will prefer different sounds. An amp with higher current capacity can handle harder speaker loads. This will impact that sound, so there is a valid reason into someone wanting to switch amps. I'm still relatively new, so don't blast me if something isn't right. I don't think there's any right and wrong way to look at this. It's very subjective, but yes, I've noticed differences in sound quality all across the board. As to what's better, depends on the individual.

[mtrycraft]

I have been experimenting with different systems and auditioning different systems for about a month or so,

Great. But, you need to know that perception and hearing are two different quantities. Perception can be unreliabls due to human bias that cannot be controlled. The brain is prone to fill in missing information or no information at times.

By far, speakers and speaker positioning make the most difference, hands down.

Yes.

The CD player/source component does make a difference. The quality of the tranport (most players are pretty good at this), the DAC and the analog output stage does make a difference.


Yet to be demonstrated universally. Not too long ago, a DBT between an $80 RCS changer and CD players costing $1000s didn't differentiate them apart.

Video cables do make a difference, but no need to go crazy.

Yet to be demonstrated for home applications.


The amp does make a difference in its ability to accurately amplify the source.

Yep, SS seems to do better at this.

different people will prefer different sounds.

Well, research just doesn't support you on this.

An amp with higher current capacity can handle harder speaker loads.

You mean the ones rated for continuous operation with 4 ohm load or less?

This will impact that sound, so there is a valid reason into someone wanting to switch amps.


Only if that speaker is such a difficult load and is not sensitive.

I'm still relatively new, so don't blast me if something isn't right.

We're just discussing here

I don't think there's any right and wrong way to look at this.

Well, there are facts and then there are preferences

It's very subjective, but yes, I've noticed differences in sound quality all across the board. As to what's better, depends on the individual.

Biased observation? Improper setup? A whole number of reasons why, least of all real differences.