New Amp

[frenchmon]

Just want to mention I picked up a spanking brand new amp. Its the Vincent Sp-331 MK hybrid and this thing out of the box is outstanding! Not syrupy warm like some tubes and not hard like some SS. Just enough tube goodness to add texture to the instruments....flesh on the bones. My room is like 18X 18 or something like that so I play at moderate levels so I dont think I will ever come out of Class A....the low level listening is so clean and you can hear all the detail of the little nuances...I love this amp already.... More after this thing gets run in....im just letting a CD loop for now....oh I did play one Album....Chet Baker and Bill Evans "Alone Together" Wax Time reproduction 180G....and It had so much emotion and romance...Thiis is the perfect amp to let all the detail and warmth of the 2M Black shine though... I am over joyed and its not even run in. More later.

[JohnMichael]

Sounds like a great sound experience with your new amp. I would love to hear it sometime. Keep us posted on any improvements you hear.

[blackraven]

Glad to hear you like the new amp. I wish I could hear it. Vincent seems to make some nice gear.

[Feanor]

I'll be interested in you further impressions. The Vincent hybrid has had some very good reviews.

[frenchmon]

This thing has changed back and forth. I was beginning to be worried for a while because out the box it was really nice, then the highs became like lost. So I took off the Pangea power cord and the small subtle nuances returned some, but the over all sound became dark and I'm not about a dark amp. There was a lot of texture to the instruments especially piano and strings, a very pronounce bass and the mids became very noticable....a little to noticeable. I mean this thing was really changing for the worse. Then I had a hunch. In the Vincent preamp...about 4 months ago I took out the Gold Line tubes and put in some Mullards. The Mullards where great, and they helped to mask some of the brightness of the Rotel amp I had been using. The Mullards are much warmer than the Gold Line tubes, have a better stage than the GL, a very very nice mid section than GL, and a much deeper bass than the GL.....the Mullards, in my opinion are a much better tube and will give you all the tube goodness you need......but it has to be the right system. The Mullards where great with the Vincent Preamp with the bright Rotel amp. But the Mullards are not so great with the Vincent preamp and the Vincent hyrid amp which uses tubes that are already on the warm side. The Mullards where the problem. So I replaced them with the Gold Lion tubes and wala! All my magic is backl. The GL dont have the stage as the Mullards, nor do they play as loud as the Mullards, and about the only thing they do better than the Mullards is not be as sweet sounding and I dont need that with this amp. Its already sweet enough It very neutral ....not syrupy nor bright but just right as far as tone goes. I wish the GL did some of those other things as well as the Mullards and yet remain open as it is now, but ...this will give me a chance to do some tube rolling and I can now get those tubes LeRoy has been telling me to get. The RadiotechniqueTubes.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, you have to give the stock tubes about 30hrs of play time to break in. But I'm glad that you like the replacement tubes.

[frenchmon]

Hi Raven....I never bothered the tubes in the New Vincent Amp, but It was the Mullards in the Vincent preamp I was talking about. Sense then, the system is sounding really nice. The Vincent SP-331 MK is all that and a bag of chips. I have about 20 hours on her and it sounds really nice now....it sounds better now than when I first switched out the tubes in the preamp. All the reviews I've read where spot on except the Absolute sound that said it was a little on the dark side. I think its very neutral and the tones are spot on. You can feel the emotion of the artist. What I have noticed is that the mids have opened up just right. And according to the reviews I've read, its still running in....it takes about 40 to 50 hours to fully run in. I cant wait to get a new power cord and the New Analysis Plus Solo Crystal interconnect.

[blackraven]

Keep us posted. I am eventually going to replace my Parasound A21. I would like to go with a high powered hybrid tube amp like the Vincent or a Van Alstine 400R or 600R. A used Pass amp or Nuforce Model 9se monoblocks may fit the bill. The $5000pr Nuforce amps canbe had for $2K used.

[LeRoy]

This thing has changed back and forth. I was beginning to be worried for a while because out the box it was really nice, then the highs became like lost. So I took off the Pangea power cord and the small subtle nuances returned some, but the over all sound became dark and I'm not about a dark amp. There was a lot of texture to the instruments especially piano and strings, a very pronounce bass and the mids became very noticable....a little to noticeable. I mean this thing was really changing for the worse. Then I had a hunch. In the Vincent preamp...about 4 months ago I took out the Gold Line tubes and put in some Mullards. The Mullards where great, and they helped to mask some of the brightness of the Rotel amp I had been using. The Mullards are much warmer than the Gold Line tubes, have a better stage than the GL, a very very nice mid section than GL, and a much deeper bass than the GL.....the Mullards, in my opinion are a much better tube and will give you all the tube goodness you need......but it has to be the right system. The Mullards where great with the Vincent Preamp with the bright Rotel amp. But the Mullards are not so great with the Vincent preamp and the Vincent hyrid amp which uses tubes that are already on the warm side. The Mullards where the problem. So I replaced them with the Gold Lion tubes and wala! All my magic is backl. The GL dont have the stage as the Mullards, nor do they play as loud as the Mullards, and about the only thing they do better than the Mullards is not be as sweet sounding and I dont need that with this amp. Its already sweet enough It very neutral ....not syrupy nor bright but just right as far as tone goes. I wish the GL did some of those other things as well as the Mullards and yet remain open as it is now, but ...this will give me a chance to do some tube rolling and I can now get those tubes LeRoy has been telling me to get. The RadiotechniqueTubes.

Ya man, tubes add another dimension to the presentation and those La Radiotechnique Tubes still remain the benchmark sound for my tastes. Are you needing AX7, AU7, or AT7 tubes?

Congrats on the newest Vincent addition!

[frenchmon]

Keep us posted. I am eventually going to replace my Parasound A21. I would like to go with a high powered hybrid tube amp like the Vincent or a Van Alstine 400R or 600R. A used Pass amp or Nuforce Model 9se monoblocks may fit the bill. The $5000pr Nuforce amps canbe had for $2K used.

Raven...I've heard the Alstine 400R when Peabody had it, and comparing to the Vincent Sp-331 MK...they are more apart then alike...but know doubt both are great amps. The Alstine is not as warm as the Vincent, and the Vincent is not that warm. With the Vincent you know there is tubes....with the Alstine, unless you know it does, or have supper dupper hearing you wont know it has tubes. Both have their certain amount of liveliness...with the Alstine having more than the Vincent. But there is no doubt both are great at what they do. The Alstiine had more of a sound like when I had my Rotel power amp connected to my Vincent tube preamp. It was a nice hybrid lively sound. Just a hint of tubes. But now that I have that same Vincent preamp connected to this Vincent Hybrid amp, there is more tube goodness...more texture to the music and a lot more resolution. I am listening to Shirley Horn sining "Estate" and its really sounding better than I remember with the old set up.

The Pass Labs are a great amp as well. To my hearing it does everything right! After listening to my Vincent and having heard Peabody's Pass Labs with the MOSFETS I would say Peabody's Pass is a little warmer. I wonder how Frank can make the 400R sound so lively with those MOSFETS and tubes?

[frenchmon]

Ya man, tubes add another dimension to the presentation and those La Radiotechnique Tubes still remain the benchmark sound for my tastes. Are you needing AX7, AU7, or AT7 tubes?

Congrats on the newest Vincent addition!

Hey buddy! Well I can use the Ax7's and Au7's because I have slots for both. But I think I may get the U7 and try them out just to see what they are like.

[harley .guy07]

I know the head guy at Audio Adviser raves about the Vincent SP-331 and Especially the MK model which from what he says a huge upgrade from the normal model. I have never heard Vincent gear but I did study it as an option when I was looking at amps for my system. I ended up getting a great deal on a used Pass Labs x150.5 so I went for it and love the thing to death. I knew I would because I love everything Nelson Pass has touched since I was younger and also Mr P. and I share like tastes in the way out system sounds and I have never been happier. But I would not mind listening to a hybrid someday just to see what some people love about them.

[frenchmon]

Hey Harley! Yes thats a very nice Kit... that Pass Labs. The Vincent has nice tones and romance. And the slam of SS. Very nice mids as well. Its really nice. I will speak more about it later,

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, the Vincent sounds like what I could be looking for. I like a warmer sound. As far as the Van Alstine 400R and 600R amps are concerned. They have multiple regulated power supplies and there is never and voltage sag. The amps are very dynamic but I too found them to lean a little on the bright side. They can benefit from some tube rolling.

[harley .guy07]

Van Alstine is another one I have never heard but a lot of forums I go to the people that own them love them and are usually switching from really good stuff to them so must be doing something right. I know Mr P. tried one of the hybrids( i believe the 400r) and for some reason it did not work for him but I would have loved to have heard it for myself as Van Alstine was another company I kept my eye on as I shopped for amps before scoring my Pass. But then again your Parasound A21 seems to get equally good press from owners and publications on how good it is especially for the price and it continually earns ranks as one of the top amps in its price class. My question to you is what the Parasound does or does not do that makes you want to move to something else. I just wanted to know because I came very close to just buying a brand new A21 myself because it was around the price of the Pass but I decided that a Pass even used was a Pass "you had me at Pass" for a little Jerry Maquire humor.

[blackraven]

Harely, I like the A21 a lot, but it has a touch of grain to it. It is a very neutral sounding amp and I would like something that leans a touch on the warmer side, has more detail and transparency. The best attributes of the A21 are that it never sounds strained, it has excellent bass and bass control (the dampening factor is greater than 1,000), it is very musical and dynamic with excellent PRAT and sounds great through the entire frequency range. Sound stage is wide and transparency is good. However, when I took home a Van Alstine 600R amp to review I was astounded to hear the difference in sound quality. The 600R made compressed recordings sound great with good air, wide sound stage and dynamics. Plus the level of detail and spacing between instruments was fantastic. But comparing the 2 amps are like comparing apples to oranges. The A21 sold for $2100 when I bought it ( I paid $1850 though) and the 600R sells for $3K but would sell for $1500 to $2000 more if sold by a retailer. I will say this about the A21, it was the best amp that I heard in its price range and it performs above its price point. You rarely see them for sale on the used market.

I would like to make the jump to the next level of amplifier. I was thinking about buying a pair of Magnepan 3.7's but after hearing how good my 1.6's sounded with a higher end amp, I think that the amp is the way to go.

[Hyfi]

Congrats on the new amp. Lots to be said about a hybrid amp. My Counterpoint was one of the earlier ones. When I got it, it still had original Counterpoint branded tubes in it but needed repair. Along with the repair, it was retubed (not the rectifiers) with Electro Harmonix 6DJ8s. I knew it was lacking and after talking with a guy who had similar CP gear, he sent me a few older RCA 6FQ7s that rocked. He also sent me some new NOS EZ81 Rectifiers which I am using along with a new set of early 60s 6FQ7 RCA Cleartops. They made a pretty big difference for sure.

All Tube Pre with Hybrid Amp is a real nice combo. Looking forward to further updates.

[frenchmon]

Raven...this amp is crazy! It has changed about 4 times already....out the box it was great, then it was bad sounding, then it was great again, then the bass was very soft, now every thing is great again. I read a few online reviews and one guy said he had the same problem as me. He said after 40 hours it was run in. Another guy said to let it run in a full three weeks. I called Audioadvisor and they said 100 hours run in. Finally called the US distributor up in Minnesota and they said 100-150 hours before she is finished. I have a little over 40 hours now and she is starting to come into her own. The amp is great! It has every thing. Its a tad right of neutral making it a tad dark but not by much. Tube rolling could change that I suppose. But other than that its sounding great and still coming into her own. You can listen to it and tell its tubes and the really good midrange a good tube unit can give you. I listen at moderate levels so I doubt if I ever come out of class A. So after I get her all burned in, I will get new interconnect...still pretty much set on the Solo Crystal by Analysis plus, but have not settled on a new power cord as of yet. I think I an leanign towards the Oval 9 speaker cables as well. One other thing....with this amp, I think I am finding more and more badly recorded CD's and Vinyl in my collection...thats a bummer.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hey Frenchie, how are things going with your new amp? Have you introduced any of the cables that you mentioned into your system yet? We haven't heard from you in awhile.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, how does the 331's sound stage, air and transparency compare to the 400R? I found that the 600R had great spacing between instruments and made compressed music sound spacious. The 400R sounds so lively because of the multiple Mosfets and multiple regulated power supplies used, hence the R in the name. I am intrigued by your review of the 331 and may eventually buy one from Audio Adivsor since they have a 30 day return policy. I would love to compare it to one of Van Alstines new Synergy amps which was designed from the ground up to give a tube sound from a solid state amp. It certainly is warmer and more tube like than the R series amps.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, how does the 331's sound stage, air and transparency compare to the 400R? I found that the 600R had great spacing between instruments and made compressed music sound spacious. The 400R sounds so lively because of the multiple Mosfets and multiple regulated power supplies used, hence the R in the name. I am intrigued by your review of the 331 and may eventually buy one from Audio Adivsor since they have a 30 day return policy. I would love to compare it to one of Van Alstines new Synergy amps which was designed from the ground up to give a tube sound from a solid state amp. It certainly is warmer and more tube like than the R series amps.

'

Hi Raven...the Vincent sounds nothing like what I heard of the 400R. I believe the Vincent is more inline with what I heard on Peabodys Pass Labs system. A little different in tone, but staging...air and all the above. Peabodys room is larger than mine but mine is a dedicated music room with some sound treatments...Peabodys is not a dedicated room. So it could have been thats why I can hear things with the Vincent and not with the AVA gear. So I can hear petty good how the system behaves in my room. My room is about 18x14x8..

This is what I sent to my dealer and Peabody:
Ok...I've about close to a 100 hours, about 80 hours. This is an incredible sound coming from this system and I would have to say its the amp that's taken things up more than a notch or two....my system has evolve into something above the cut as far as hi-fi and into a different category or class of sound well above what I've paid. Its really amazing...the Vincent preamp/Rotel combination never came close to what I am hearing. The transparency, staging, air and sense of putting you in a venue listening to live music with certain recordings was never there with the old set up, but the all Vincent combination gives you a sense of atmosphere heard in gear much more expensive. I think it wants speakers that are able to deliver what it has to offer, or you wont hear all the little nuances its has to offer.

It so refreshing to listen to your old collection of music and discover you've never really heard it like you're hearing it now....the Vincent has a much more different interpretation of music from what I was previously hearing and has also let me hear things in the music I've never noticed before.

The Vincent, after the 80 hours, and looking back of how its come to this point, changed in sonic and dynamics and for the better each step of the way. I have never seen anything like it. Wylie has the same amp/preamp paring, but I noticed your amp is back in the box sitting in his basement, and the preamp is sitting on a shelf in your music room not being used. The reason could be, you ran out of patience during run in, and I can see why, it takes a whyle to run this baby in. But you are now running the Vincent integrated amp and also a Bel Canto rig as well...., I wondering if the integrated amp delivers like the seperates.....I doubt the Bel Canto is giving this kind of performance....but I could be wrong.

The high frequencies are one of the last things to come into its own with this amp. Wylie, I do remember you complaining about the highs that time I came over when you first got the amp. It takes a while for it to burn in. Even I thought the amp had a slightly dark nature to it because of the dark high frequencies, but it seems I had a false reading of the character....the high frequencies have burned in and are very transparent. I once had a Threshold amp in my system and it was about the most transparent amp I had ever heard. The Vincent I believed has surpassed that amp in transparency. Due to my false reading of the character of this amp, I mistakenly thought it had a dark nature, but there is nothing dark about it....the SP-331MK is a very neutral amp and far from boring. there is nothing out of balance from top to bottom, and the texture of the instruments is life like....skin on the bones, so to speak. There is no thin sounding instruments with this amp. It has a certain sweetness because of the tubes, especially when if warms up, but nothing syrupy in the sweetness, but it adds the texture that we all know tubes can add. And it has the slam of some of the best SS amps I have ever heard, if the recording has it. 'That's the beauty of a hybrid amp...its really the best of both worlds if its done correctly and Vincent has done it right. One of the things of a good neutral transparent amp is the ability to let what ever is connected to it have its nature shine through. Thus the Vincent is excellent at this. While it does have its own character, it lets the nature of your sources shine though and you know it right away. Of all the things the Rotel did right, this was not one of them. the Rotel imparted its own character on every source connected to it. I would say one of the strong points of this amp is the bass. Its very good at adding that needed weight through out the entire spectrum of sound, giving body to the entire sound. It also has the PRaT thing down really really good, but not over powering like I've heard before with some other gear. It too has a very good midrange, but the high frequencies, which have come on through run in as of late, are really special. There is no edge what so ever...in the beginning they where really hard to hear, and cymbals where hard and kinda splashy, they did improve after about 40 hours, but now with more run in they are like lush with definition and detail without ever sounding splashy or hard, and never ear bleed or fatigue. In all honesty, these are the best cymbal taps I have ever heard at any price point I've listen too.

You know...we've all heard, and every body uses that old saying that's attached to a lot of gear..." its more sound than what the price dictates" or something on those lines. I can honestly say those words about this paring. In fact Vincent has all along said they designed in German, and build in China to push the extra saving onto the consumer. This is the first time I have ever believed that due to what I am hearing. For what is capable with this amp and price paid, the performance is way ahead of the price. And there is also excellent build quality to boot.

And I have not even added the new cabling and power cord yet. I have yet to really tell you how the low level listening is, nor the effects the Class A has on the sound. Oh, if there is any one that thinks Class A is only at moderate levels with this amp, they really have no ideal how loud 10 watts can be...especially with the right speakers. Just talk to some SET amp owners and they can tell ya. My speakers are 87db and I have never been out of Class A with this amp. But I will save that for more on the update along with sound staging and imaging which are also some of the best I've heard. I will post more at a later date, but if any one wants to spend a little more and are looking to add an amp on their way to getting off the merry go round, have a look at the Vincent SP-331...and if you really want to add the preamp SA-T1, you wont be sorry. I can guarantee....you will encounter a very emotional connection with your system through the music if they system is set up right....we talk about speakers disappearing....how about an amp making things disappear due to the lovely music your listening too. I'm getting that with this paring.
__________________

[frenchmon]

One thing that I have noticed as much better is the staging of this amp. It is easy to hear the 3D effect in my music room. (More on that later). The Rotel did nothing like this. but the Vincent takes the music....puts all instruments in its own space...sorta spreads them out...gives everything dimension. (If the listener is sitting and a serious listener,) you can sorta see with your minds eye as well as hear the depth and space of instruments front to back, and what you hear is never a in your face presentation, but it begins slightly in front of speakers with the depth going back behind the speakers,....especially noticable with live recordings. With studio recordings you get a great sense of texture and space around the instruments with greater focus on it all as a unit playing together. I love the cymbal work from a good drummer...they sound so real but are never hard and fatigue.

A few years ago there was a buzz about a pianist....Brad Mehldau. So I purchased a CD...Brad Mehldau Trio live. After putting in the CD when I had the Rotel, I couldnt stand to listen after a few tracts. The CD was absolutely a terrible recording, and I thought the guy was an average muiscian at best....so I thought. The piano was in the left speaker and the drums and upright bass was in the right speakers with no sound in the middle...and this was a 2008 recording. After the first and second tune, the audience clapped and that two was in one speaker or the other with no imaging or sound stage worth nothing. I was disappointed in him and that CD for a few years after several times of trying to listen to it. Tried it again last night and its all the way different. Not only are the left and right speaker audible, but theres an image.... between the speakers are audible as well. There is a sound stage with depth! Brads talents shine, and everything is a unit. My Elaine Elias CD...."Brazilian Classics" with Jack DeJohnette/ Peter Erskine on drums and Marc Johnson/Eddie Gomez on bass is just wonderful. The drumming and Bass as the rhythm section is just flat out beautifully transparent and the attack of each is absolutely stunning to hear...these highly skilled musicians shine as I've never heard before. The bass has the deep wood like sound with deep tones of a upright bass and the cymbals once again sounding so real with excellent decay. The Vincent puts the whole presentation in a studio like presentation as if each musician is in their own space. The Rhythm of the drums and bass would make the most harden "SET amp" lover very proud, as the 10 watts Class A with is ability to decipher the music with fine tones, weight and substance is a pleasant surprise...I think it with the bass gives it the skin of the flesh so to speak,

My listening room, which is in a room in the basement, is very personal to me. The only other person who comes in there is my son. I have a carpet floor, and have nice rugs hanging behind and to the left side on the walls. Not the best but it servers its purpose well. the right side has a patio sliding glass door but most times I keep the blinds closed as not to get to much of a reflections. My ceiling has the rafters exposed. Some one once told me if no pads on ceiling its best to have the rafters exposed to keep reflections down. I cant hear a echo and I do have reflections down as much as possible with the little I've done. But through reading about room reflections, and hearing them in some of my friends listening rooms with no sound treatment what so ever is a big mistake in my book. I hear things in my listening room with my gear that I never heard in my friends listening room. I think its becasue a lack of any sound enhancements. Reflections can keep the finest detail from being audible. And can keep the sound stage from being heard in all its glory. One guy has Pass Labs gear, and the other has ARC and McIntosh gear.....gear just as good and perhaps better in technology and sonics than what I have. Both these guys are very proud and enjoy their gear as much as I do. But I wonder how much better we would enjoy it if we had better sound enhancing panels? I will make suggestions to my audio pals about sound, but once I get the few added pieces I need for my rig, the last thing is better sound enhancing material. I enjoy this hobby to much not to do as much as I can to help me enjoy it even more. More later.

[Hyfi]

Sounds like you have found some nice synergy there. It is amazing what you hear extra or different as you step up the chain.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, thanks for the review. I am going to have to give the amp a listen when I get the chance. I just may order one from AA so I can hear it and be able to return it. I don't want to make a lateral move from the A21.

[frenchmon]

Raven...have you decided to order the amp yet?