Week 6: 50 Albums that Changed Music

[MindGoneHaywire]

I'm with Mastercylinder on this one.

Maybe Patti's folk-tinged punk changed the direction of some music back in the 70s and 80s, but today that influence is mighty diluted and inconsequential.

I saw her at Winterland back in the late 70s and the gig was really boring. The music ugly, coarse and uninvolving, her voice ragged and sloppy, her poetry laughable angst-ridden juvenilia. A punk Stevie Nicks. BFD. I didn't buy into the mystique one bit.

Maybe some punk didn't play to the DIY ethos already mentioned in this thread, but based on what I saw that night, Patti sure did, cuz it really looked like amateur hour up there.

Meh is right.

She sure had an influence on that one great Jim Carroll record...how many acts like the Pretenders did you see prior to 1975? I think the name PJ Harvey has already been mentioned. Then there's Alanis Morrissette and Liz Phair...these three are not from the 70s or 80s last time I looked, and if you're denying them their due, that's another matter entirely. Unless you want to say that Horses had no influence on these people, I'm not sure why you'd say it didn't change music.

The amateurs who made this record were apparently good enough to be selected by folks ranging from Ray Manzarek to Blue Oyster Cult to Charlie Daniels to the Church to Noel Redding to Paul McCartney to work on their projects. So apparently those artists disagreed with yr assessment of the musical abilities of the Patti Smith Group.

Then there's stuff like the Roches...Suzanne Vega...the Indigo Girls...all of whom brought Horses alumni on board for their early work. Coincidence? I think not.

Considering the easily drawn links between these people and the Lilith Fair, are you still going to deny influence here? I won't bother with Mastercylinder, it's not worth it. And I'm not a big Patti fan, either, let alone the Liliths. But this is just ridiculous.

Birdland is my favorite song on the rec, it's the essence of what she did best to my ears. She could rock, sure, but so could a lot of other people, at least as well as the PSG. What she did with poetry on this tune was unique and stands out. That's not to deny her version of Gloria, however...but Piss Factory should've been on this record.

[Troy]

She sure had an influence on that one great Jim Carroll record...how many acts like the Pretenders did you see prior to 1975? I think the name PJ Harvey has already been mentioned. Then there's Alanis Morrissette and Liz Phair...these three are not from the 70s or 80s last time I looked, and if you're denying them their due, that's another matter entirely. Unless you want to say that Horses had no influence on these people, I'm not sure why you'd say it didn't change music.

The amateurs who made this record were apparently good enough to be selected by folks ranging from Ray Manzarek to Blue Oyster Cult to Charlie Daniels to the Church to Noel Redding to Paul McCartney to work on their projects. So apparently those artists disagreed with yr assessment of the musical abilities of the Patti Smith Group.

Then there's stuff like the Roches...Suzanne Vega...the Indigo Girls...all of whom brought Horses alumni on board for their early work. Coincidence? I think not.

Considering the easily drawn links between these people and the Lilith Fair, are you still going to deny influence here? I won't bother with Mastercylinder, it's not worth it. And I'm not a big Patti fan, either, let alone the Liliths. But this is just ridiculous.

Birdland is my favorite song on the rec, it's the essence of what she did best to my ears. She could rock, sure, but so could a lot of other people, at least as well as the PSG. What she did with poetry on this tune was unique and stands out. That's not to deny her version of Gloria, however...but Piss Factory should've been on this record.

Always a pleaseure seeing you get some excercise there, J.

Yes, she influenced all those artists you mentioned, and BFD. You even said yourself that the Lilith Faire thing was a dead end at best and joke at worst.

This is supposed to be the SIXTH MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM OF ALL TIME!! You telling me that PJ Harvey is THAT important in the history of rock music? The Roches? The freekin ROCHES!?! Who gives a crap? It's utterly ridiculous.

I'll take the Pretenders over Patti Smith any day, but neither was IMPORTANT in any way WRT the grand scheme of all things rock.

The sixth most influential album of all time? That list was compiled by a woman with an agenda.

[MasterCylinder]

The sixth most influential album of all time?
That list was compiled by a woman with an agenda.

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LOL, Troy.
I've had a lot of chicks invite me over for a good shag whilst spinning a Robert Johnson album..........................LMAO.

[BradH]

This is supposed to be the SIXTH MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM OF ALL TIME!!

Are you sure about that? I thought the list was not in any particular order. I'd say Jonathan Richman was more influential on the early NY punk scene than Patti Smith.

People talk like prog musicians could play any other style, but being able to play a complex style doesn not necessarily mean they would sound good playing something simpler.

I've got a recording of Mike Keneally covering a Stevie Ray Vaughan tune that is...well...let's be kind and say it's unsuccesful. The reason I'm being kind is because Keneally is no fool. It's impossible for me to believe Keneally thinks he can play the blues. He does lots of cover songs because he has a positive attitude about music in general along with a sense of humor. But this attempt at playing SRV is as hopeless as SRV playing Keneally. So, as always, I question the idea that so called "simple music" is all that simple.

[Troy]

Which MK song was that, Brad? Give me a link if you got one.

Was there ever a punk SRV? Someone respected as a player like he was? I'm sure a few will turn up, but I think they won't exactly be major artists and they are probably crossing over into other sub-genres of rock. The punk thing just wasn't about "Have you seen that guitar player? He really makes it sing." Emotional responses to punk rock consist of "Yawwwwww!!" and then you sucker-punch the guy next to you. Punk was about the visceral agressive, in-the-moment angst of feeling oppressed and furious at the world. You know, teenage stuff. There's so much more to life that I want to see reflected in music.

This whole argument about having chops is better than not having them is moot anyway. There are excellent artists at either end of the spectrum, it's a case by case situation with every band. It's a stupid argument that one genre is better than another. It's like arguing over whether Hefenweizen is good beer or not. There's no correct answer.

Why did Patti only influence women artists? (No one's mentioned Allanis Morrisette yet) What woman influenced Patti? Joan Baez? Joni Mitchell? Suzi Quatro? Or was she more influenced by male artists? If that's the case, then there were about 1000 artists closer to the trunk of the tree than her. No, she's on the list specifically because she's a woman.

All I keep seeing in my minds eye is Gilda Radner doing her infamous Patti Smith sketch from the late 70s. It was terribly insulting, but a spot on representation of what she was like when I saw her. Wendy O. Williams was a lot more fun.

As to whether the list is random or not is news to me. I guess I am the only one that never looked at the whole list . . .

[BradH]

Which MK song was that, Brad? Give me a link if you got one.

I got it in a trade a couple of years ago. I'll just send the whole show. The sound quality is good enough for official release. MK has quite a few boots of that caliber. This blues is at the end where some crappy girl singer w/ the club joins in for another train wreck like the Zappanale Festival in Germany. MK's solo is a passable rock solo. "Pathetic" is probably too strong a word. But it's hardly SRV caliber. My point is this: if the blues are so freaking simple and stupid then MK should be able to pull off a scorcher but it's just not in him.

Was there ever a punk SRV?

No.

Someone respected as a player like he was?

Yes.

I'm sure a few will turn up, but I think they won't exactly be major artists and they are probably crossing over into other sub-genres of rock.

No, no, let me guess. Punk is garbage but the stuff that's good is (drum roll, please)...New Wave. It's a phony distinction cooked up by the post-disco music industry after the press decided the Sex Pistols were ground zero for punk.

The punk thing just wasn't about "Have you seen that guitar player? He really makes it sing."

It certainly was in Tom Verlaine's case. But I guess what Television was doing in 1975 was post-punk New Wave because it didn't sound like what Generation X was doing in 1979. (Or Green Day in 2006.)

Punk was about the visceral agressive, in-the-moment angst of feeling oppressed and furious at the world. You know, teenage stuff.

Sounds like the L.A. version to me. Which I never liked. I'm not a Patti Smith fan but when you mention her name, "mosh pit" is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind.

Why did Patti only influence women artists?

What about Michael Stipe? Oh wait, never mind. Actually, I'm not sure what this has to with anything. Horses was influential. Do I like it? No. I don't give a rat's @ss about her intellectual, angst filled vision of New York. I prefer the Ramones' vision or Television or Talking Heads. But Jay's right, this is like the VU thread where the counter-argument regarding influence consists of holding your fingers in your ears, jumping up and down and saying, "It sucks, it sucks, it sucks..."

[3-LockBox]

But Jay's right, this is like the VU thread where the counter-argument regarding influence consists of holding your fingers in your ears, jumping up and down and saying, "It sucks, it sucks, it sucks..."

No, I don't think anyone said it sucked. I don't question whether she ever influenced anyone or if the album itself was influential. I question whether it 'changed music'.

Yes, Patti Smith (and perhaps this album) was influencial to a number of acts. But did this album change music? I don't think so. This album wasn't exactly innovative or different to my ears. She seemed very influenced by VU, in fact, that's how I'd sum Smith up; she's a female version of Lou Reed, only with armpit hair and less make-up.

[MasterCylinder]

Yes, Patti Smith (and perhaps this album) was influencial to a number of acts. But did this album change music? I don't think so. This album wasn't exactly innovative or different to my ears. She seemed very influenced by VU, in fact, that's how I'd sum Smith up; she's a female version of Lou Reed, only with armpit hair and less make-up.
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Agreed.
Didn't change music, armpit hair and less make-up......same tits though.

[BradH]

There's something about the violence that took place that I mentioned to Jay in an e-mail years ago but I've never seen it mentioned here. When those London bands started touring places like Manchester, Birmingham or Newcastle, they found the violence there was worse than London. They were shocked that this was happening and were basically told by the local punks, "See, we're radical, too." Those punks were acting out what they had seen on the news reports and the results were even worse than London. It was a "me too" copycat phenomenon. While this was going on, there were musicians quoted in the press saying this could never happen in L.A. (Jackson Browne comes to mind). But by 1981 it was worse in L.A. than it had been anywhere. In retrospect, that shouldn't have surprised anyone because L.A. is a town where image can become reality fairly rapidly.

[MindGoneHaywire]

Troy, you're doing the same thing the other guy did in the first thread. I don't think this is the sixth most influential album of all time, but I read the piece on the day it was published (the day before that Sunday paper hit the stands, actually, it was on the web on the Saturday & linked on another board I was looking at), and that's not exactly what they're saying, although if you want to perceive it that way due to the rankings, fine. I'm with you, it's not the sixth most influential album of all time. But it's a list that was compiled by several people, not 'a woman with an agenda,' and I daresay they don't know Jack about jazz if they think they're going to get anyone who does know anything about it to agree with their poor choices in that genre, which is so unbelievably underrepresented on the list it's beyond description. Considering it came from a country where the leading music magazine's reader's poll resulted in naming the Smiths the most influential band of all time, this is far from a terrible list if you consider it in its context, and certainly worthy of discussion.

10 years ago, or ever since Liz Phair & PJ Harvey hit, that whole 'women in rock' thing WAS quite important, whether you like it or I like it or not. This is the same crap we had in the first thread. 'I don't like it, therefore it was unimportant.' Play games if you must, but if you're denying that this record had a significant influence on music, you're just spouting crap. It'd be like me questioning the influence or importance of Yes, King Crimson, ELP, or Genesis. I couldn't care less about their influence, importance, or whatever it was they were passing off as music, but I don't deny its influence or importance.

And yes, the Pretenders were important, and so were the Roches. I guess it's easy to forget how significant it was to have a musical guest slot on Saturday Night Live in the mid- and late 70s. Patti Smith played the first season, and, in fact, sang 'Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine,' the opening line to her version of Gloria, a few minutes after the midnight hour on an Easter Sunday; 15 years before Sinead O'Connor's tantrum. And I well remember the Roches on that program, and if you think it didn't help them sell more records than any buzz from five similarly obscure artists combined in any given week on a Leno or Letterman show, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for ya. Their performance had a quality to it that the Lilith collection of walking estrogen couldn't come close to. However, before it became that watered-down, I was reminded of that Roches shot when I saw Suzanne Vega perform the night after her first album was released.

Without Patti Smith, the influence of Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro, and people like that would certainly have stood on its own, but Horses offered artistic counterbalance to records like Court & Spark that led to the whole 'women in rock' thing. Which was significant whether you'd like to believe it or not. That it even spawned a Lollapalooza-like festival that went on for a few years is enough evidence of the significance of the movement, even if I'm not any more interested in arty, acoustic-guitar-strumming alternachix with attitudes as repulsive to men as menstrual period blood, any more than you are.

To deny that Phair, Harvey, & Morrissette had a significant impact on music is as feckless as insisting that Roxy Music was as meaningless as that other joker was claiming. But since I know you realize that, well, that's not the reason I ain't emailed ya yet. My bad. Soon.

[3-LockBox]

This is supposed to be the SIXTH MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM OF ALL TIME!!

I was kinda thinking this list was in no particular order.

I don't know what the gender of the person/s responsible for this list, but it smacks of someone lauding their own personal collection.