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  1. #1
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    Week 6: 50 Albums that Changed Music

    This selection this week is Patti Smith - Horses (1975).

    Who would have thought punk rock was, in part, kickstarted by a girl? Poet, misfit, and New York ligger, Patti channelled the spirts of Keith Richards, Bob Dylan, and Rimbaud into female form, and onto an album whose febrile energy and Dionysian spirit helped light the touchpaper for New York punk. The Robert Mapplethorpe-shot cover, in which a hungry, mannish Patti stares down the viewer, defiantly broke with the music industry's treatment of women artists (sex or girl-next-door) and still startles today. Without this there would be no REM, PJ Harvey, Razorlight. And no "powerful" female pop icons like Madonna.

    Good ahead and have at it.

    Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  2. #2
    Suspended 3-LockBox's Avatar
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    First off, Madonna woulda happened Patti Smith or not. But anyway...

    I remember being on the boardwalk in Virginia Beach (at night) and walking past lots of bars and cafes trying to get in, but the bars with the hair metal bands (and thus, the girls) were packed, and the only bars with a place to sit were the bars with the one person bands, usually some dude with a guitar and some effects pedals. And it was the usual suspects as far as material covered; Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Harry Chapin, Patti Smith.

    One bar we settled on had a young woman come out and all we could come up with is that she was trying to sound like Bob Dylan, but an older squid, er... sailor, told us that that was a Patti Smith song, then added "I have that tape". Later on that week, I borrowed the tape (I forget which one) and I felt that the girl I saw earlier that week pretty much nailed her.

    To be honest, I tried a few latter-day Patti Smith albums and she just never grabbed me. Talk about someone completely enamoured with the sound of her own voice. Is she really the mother of punk? Given that people seemed to like her despite not having a good singing voice, I'm sure she was an inspiration to anyone with less than adequate pipes.

    Musically speaking, she was definately as lyrical as any of her contemporaries. The musicianship on her early releases was pretty competant, so I don't get the punk connection, except for her dissonant lyrics and beatnik-ish delivery.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    I don't get why it is that people seem to think that punk and musical competency are supposed to be musically exclusive.

    I don't like others.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    She's probably at the top of my list of artists I think are OK, but have never understood the big hoo ha over.

    I guess she pushed some boundries lyrically, but musically, I can't see that she really brought anythng new to the table. A few good songs here and there, but never really did much for me. Reminds me more of a Morrison type than anything...the whole "serious poet" as rock star trip. But, withouth a killer back up band. Maybe if I were female I'd be digging on her female empowerment or something.

    Redondo Beach is a great song though...so I give her a break now and then. And Rock 'n' Roll Niger off Easter is a great song just because I love anything that makes people afraid to even put the needle down.

    But, her body of work as a whole never stood out much to me.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    "...febrile energy and Dionysian spirit helped light the touchpaper for New York punk," F'n eh, Swish; F'n eh!!

    Cheers,

    audiobill

  6. #6
    Suspended 3-LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    I don't get why it is that people seem to think that punk and musical competency are supposed to be musically exclusive.
    Meant as a jab to fans of punk who place it on a pedestal...

    Not that I hate punk mind you, I just filed it away in my musical conciousness the same way I did hairy metal and grunge. It served a purpose one time in my life.

  7. #7
    Suspended 3-LockBox's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=nobody] Reminds me more of a Morrison type than anything...the whole "serious poet" as rock star trip. QUOTE]

    With a touch of Silvester the cat

  8. #8
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    Easy there Bill...

    Quote Originally Posted by audiobill
    "...febrile energy and Dionysian spirit helped light the touchpaper for New York punk," F'n eh, Swish; F'n eh!!

    Cheers,

    audiobill
    ...I guess you missed the whole set up for this when you were over in the mother land. Anyway, while I would like to take credit for those words, they're not mine, and after tipping a few beers with me in Toronto, you should know that's not my style. Ha, ha! The deal is this; when I was in London, the Sunday paper had a special section in which a bunch of music critics chose what they thought were the 50 most influential albums of all time, but not necessarily the best of all time. I promised to post one per week for 50 weeks to create some interest on the board since it's been so blah lately. The first week was volatile with the choice of VU with Nico. What a wild thread that started, with a couple newcomers really popping off and getting into it. Sgt. Pepper's in the second week also drew lots of attention, but, alas, it already seems to be dying out just a little. I think some of the later choices will garner some attention, but some of these are too obvious in my opinion.

    Anyway, I am just copying their article word for word, so no need for such accolades.

    Regards,
    Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    ...I guess you missed the whole set up for this when you were over in the mother land. Anyway, while I would like to take credit for those words, they're not mine, and after tipping a few beers with me in Toronto, you should know that's not my style. Ha, ha! The deal is this; when I was in London, the Sunday paper had a special section in which a bunch of music critics chose what they thought were the 50 most influential albums of all time, but not necessarily the best of all time. I promised to post one per week for 50 weeks to create some interest on the board since it's been so blah lately. The first week was volatile with the choice of VU with Nico. What a wild thread that started, with a couple newcomers really popping off and getting into it. Sgt. Pepper's in the second week also drew lots of attention, but, alas, it already seems to be dying out just a little. I think some of the later choices will garner some attention, but some of these are too obvious in my opinion.

    Anyway, I am just copying their article word for word, so no need for such accolades.

    Regards,
    Swish

    So... this is what you brought back from across the Pond, eh?? Cool. I've got some fine grade Ouzo with your name on it... for sipping, of course.

  10. #10
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    I don't get why it is that people seem to think that punk and musical competency are supposed to be musically exclusive.
    We've had this conversation before, and I've explained it to you before, you just refuse to remember: it's because punk was spawned out of a DIY ethic in response to technical virtuosity and high budget production (and probably somewhat of the good-old-boy record label network), and so those things were deliberately played down in punk rock.
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  11. #11
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    Well, I also brought back several t-shirts.

    Quote Originally Posted by audiobill
    So... this is what you brought back from across the Pond, eh?? Cool. I've got some fine grade Ouzo with your name on it... for sipping, of course.
    I guess I'm the typical American tourist, eh Billy boy? I never cared much for Ouzo, but if it's "fine grade" I suppose I could give it a try. Perhaps the stuff I've had in the past just wasn't very good? Maybe you could bring it to the Bimmer Fest in VT next year? I'd like to make that one for sure! And I'll bring a bottle of Casa Noble tequila and we can really get crazy.

    Regards,
    Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    >punk was spawned out of a DIY ethic in response to technical virtuosity

    As I've said before, this is something of an overstatement, and I'll drag out the names if anyone insists, though I'd prefer this thread stayed on topic. The sexiest sound bites allude to this consistently, and it's certainly true to an extent. But the Patti Smith Group was never about taking pride in not being able to play one's instrument competently. And the producer of Horses was classically trained (Aaron Copland helped bring him to the USA to pursue his studies, such were his abilities), so this doesn't hold up in spite of how many interviews were given extolling the virtues of not being able to play that well...which were swallowed hook, line, and sinker by those who don't know exactly how much skill it took to actually play even this relatively simple music with any level of competency.

    I don't like others.

  13. #13
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    I love Patti Smith, and that album was quite an opening statement....

    Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine

    I like Easter even more. Gone Again is pretty great too, especially 20 some odd years down the road. You should hear her ode to Kurt Cobain in the amazing "About a Boy", with those dreamy guitars snaking throughout, and mixed with the loss of her own husband. Great stuff. And the song before it called "Beneath The Southern Cross" even features more of Tom Verlaine and The Velvet Underground's John Cale on guitars, as well as Jeff Buckley on backing vocals. What a band!

    Still put Polly Harvey's first two right up there with Patti's first two, but no argument about who came first.

  14. #14
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    zzzzzzzzzz

    Not that I hate punk mind you, I just filed it away in my musical conciousness the same way I did hairy metal and grunge. It served a purpose one time in my life.
    ================================================

    It served no purpose for me.

    Patti Smith ?
    Changed music?

    meh !

  15. #15
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    I'm with Mastercylinder on this one.

    Maybe Patti's folk-tinged punk changed the direction of some music back in the 70s and 80s, but today that influence is mighty diluted and inconsequential.

    I saw her at Winterland back in the late 70s and the gig was really boring. The music ugly, coarse and uninvolving, her voice ragged and sloppy, her poetry laughable angst-ridden juvenilia. A punk Stevie Nicks. BFD. I didn't buy into the mystique one bit.

    Maybe some punk didn't play to the DIY ethos already mentioned in this thread, but based on what I saw that night, Patti sure did, cuz it really looked like amateur hour up there.

    Meh is right.

  16. #16
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    yes

    ......................based on what I saw that night, Patti sure did, cuz it really looked like amateur hour up there.
    ==========================================

    Troy......that sums it all up right there..........

    With most punk (to me) you don't know whether you are receiving something revolutionary or some bullshyt marketing ploy.........a fine line.

    When you see or hear Porky Tree (one example), you don't question the abilities.

  17. #17
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    With most prog I question the ability to make music I like.

    People talk like prog musicians could play any other style, but being able to play a complex style doesn not necessarily mean they would sound good playing something simpler. I've heard plenty of more refined musicians tank when trying to really play something different...lack of energy...vibe all wrong...timing off, etc...

  18. #18
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    I guess I'm the typical American tourist, eh Billy boy? I never cared much for Ouzo, but if it's "fine grade" I suppose I could give it a try. Perhaps the stuff I've had in the past just wasn't very good? Maybe you could bring it to the Bimmer Fest in VT next year? I'd like to make that one for sure! And I'll bring a bottle of Casa Noble tequila and we can really get crazy.

    Regards,
    Swish
    Yeah that sounds like a blast. The thing about Ouzo is that most people have had shots of it sometime in their younger days; in fact, that was my first intro to it. Not a good intro. The way to drink it is to add some ice and about the same amount of cold water, as is ouzo in the glass. The whole concoction turns milky and all the aromas and flavours are released and then locked in by the ice. Also, Ouzo needs the requisite "mezedes" -- nibblies i.e., tomatoes, cheese chunks, sausage bites, breads et al.

  19. #19
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Ouzo was the first thing I ever got really drunk on.

    My buddy in junior high had a dad who was greek and ran a restaurant and every year he would go back to Greece and bring back a few cases of Ouzo. So, of course, we had to go to the basement and snatch a bottle one night. Didn't know any better than to split the whole thing, of course. Damn....that was a long time ago.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    I'm with Mastercylinder on this one.

    Maybe Patti's folk-tinged punk changed the direction of some music back in the 70s and 80s, but today that influence is mighty diluted and inconsequential.

    I saw her at Winterland back in the late 70s and the gig was really boring. The music ugly, coarse and uninvolving, her voice ragged and sloppy, her poetry laughable angst-ridden juvenilia. A punk Stevie Nicks. BFD. I didn't buy into the mystique one bit.

    Maybe some punk didn't play to the DIY ethos already mentioned in this thread, but based on what I saw that night, Patti sure did, cuz it really looked like amateur hour up there.

    Meh is right.

    She sure had an influence on that one great Jim Carroll record...how many acts like the Pretenders did you see prior to 1975? I think the name PJ Harvey has already been mentioned. Then there's Alanis Morrissette and Liz Phair...these three are not from the 70s or 80s last time I looked, and if you're denying them their due, that's another matter entirely. Unless you want to say that Horses had no influence on these people, I'm not sure why you'd say it didn't change music.

    The amateurs who made this record were apparently good enough to be selected by folks ranging from Ray Manzarek to Blue Oyster Cult to Charlie Daniels to the Church to Noel Redding to Paul McCartney to work on their projects. So apparently those artists disagreed with yr assessment of the musical abilities of the Patti Smith Group.

    Then there's stuff like the Roches...Suzanne Vega...the Indigo Girls...all of whom brought Horses alumni on board for their early work. Coincidence? I think not.

    Considering the easily drawn links between these people and the Lilith Fair, are you still going to deny influence here? I won't bother with Mastercylinder, it's not worth it. And I'm not a big Patti fan, either, let alone the Liliths. But this is just ridiculous.

    Birdland is my favorite song on the rec, it's the essence of what she did best to my ears. She could rock, sure, but so could a lot of other people, at least as well as the PSG. What she did with poetry on this tune was unique and stands out. That's not to deny her version of Gloria, however...but Piss Factory should've been on this record.

    I don't like others.

  21. #21
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    Ok, so you bring the Ouzo and the mezedes....

    Quote Originally Posted by audiobill
    Yeah that sounds like a blast. The thing about Ouzo is that most people have had shots of it sometime in their younger days; in fact, that was my first intro to it. Not a good intro. The way to drink it is to add some ice and about the same amount of cold water, as is ouzo in the glass. The whole concoction turns milky and all the aromas and flavours are released and then locked in by the ice. Also, Ouzo needs the requisite "mezedes" -- nibblies i.e., tomatoes, cheese chunks, sausage bites, breads et al.
    ...and I'll bring my thirst and appetite. Fair enough? You're right about the shots as that is the only way I've ever had it, and it didn't do much for me. I'm a a beer/scotch/vodka guy, and I also drink a lot of wine, some tequila, whiskey, gin. Gee, I guess I drink almost everything with alcohol.

    Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  22. #22
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    She sure had an influence on that one great Jim Carroll record...how many acts like the Pretenders did you see prior to 1975? I think the name PJ Harvey has already been mentioned. Then there's Alanis Morrissette and Liz Phair...these three are not from the 70s or 80s last time I looked, and if you're denying them their due, that's another matter entirely. Unless you want to say that Horses had no influence on these people, I'm not sure why you'd say it didn't change music.

    The amateurs who made this record were apparently good enough to be selected by folks ranging from Ray Manzarek to Blue Oyster Cult to Charlie Daniels to the Church to Noel Redding to Paul McCartney to work on their projects. So apparently those artists disagreed with yr assessment of the musical abilities of the Patti Smith Group.

    Then there's stuff like the Roches...Suzanne Vega...the Indigo Girls...all of whom brought Horses alumni on board for their early work. Coincidence? I think not.

    Considering the easily drawn links between these people and the Lilith Fair, are you still going to deny influence here? I won't bother with Mastercylinder, it's not worth it. And I'm not a big Patti fan, either, let alone the Liliths. But this is just ridiculous.

    Birdland is my favorite song on the rec, it's the essence of what she did best to my ears. She could rock, sure, but so could a lot of other people, at least as well as the PSG. What she did with poetry on this tune was unique and stands out. That's not to deny her version of Gloria, however...but Piss Factory should've been on this record.
    Always a pleaseure seeing you get some excercise there, J.

    Yes, she influenced all those artists you mentioned, and BFD. You even said yourself that the Lilith Faire thing was a dead end at best and joke at worst.

    This is supposed to be the SIXTH MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM OF ALL TIME!! You telling me that PJ Harvey is THAT important in the history of rock music? The Roches? The freekin ROCHES!?! Who gives a crap? It's utterly ridiculous.

    I'll take the Pretenders over Patti Smith any day, but neither was IMPORTANT in any way WRT the grand scheme of all things rock.

    The sixth most influential album of all time? That list was compiled by a woman with an agenda.
    Last edited by Troy; 08-29-2006 at 01:23 PM.

  23. #23
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    Lol !

    The sixth most influential album of all time?
    That list was compiled by a woman with an agenda.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    LOL, Troy.
    I've had a lot of chicks invite me over for a good shag whilst spinning a Robert Johnson album..........................LMAO.

  24. #24
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    This is supposed to be the SIXTH MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM OF ALL TIME!!
    Are you sure about that? I thought the list was not in any particular order. I'd say Jonathan Richman was more influential on the early NY punk scene than Patti Smith.

    Quote Originally Posted by nobody
    People talk like prog musicians could play any other style, but being able to play a complex style doesn not necessarily mean they would sound good playing something simpler.
    I've got a recording of Mike Keneally covering a Stevie Ray Vaughan tune that is...well...let's be kind and say it's unsuccesful. The reason I'm being kind is because Keneally is no fool. It's impossible for me to believe Keneally thinks he can play the blues. He does lots of cover songs because he has a positive attitude about music in general along with a sense of humor. But this attempt at playing SRV is as hopeless as SRV playing Keneally. So, as always, I question the idea that so called "simple music" is all that simple.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    Troy, you're doing the same thing the other guy did in the first thread. I don't think this is the sixth most influential album of all time, but I read the piece on the day it was published (the day before that Sunday paper hit the stands, actually, it was on the web on the Saturday & linked on another board I was looking at), and that's not exactly what they're saying, although if you want to perceive it that way due to the rankings, fine. I'm with you, it's not the sixth most influential album of all time. But it's a list that was compiled by several people, not 'a woman with an agenda,' and I daresay they don't know Jack about jazz if they think they're going to get anyone who does know anything about it to agree with their poor choices in that genre, which is so unbelievably underrepresented on the list it's beyond description. Considering it came from a country where the leading music magazine's reader's poll resulted in naming the Smiths the most influential band of all time, this is far from a terrible list if you consider it in its context, and certainly worthy of discussion.

    10 years ago, or ever since Liz Phair & PJ Harvey hit, that whole 'women in rock' thing WAS quite important, whether you like it or I like it or not. This is the same crap we had in the first thread. 'I don't like it, therefore it was unimportant.' Play games if you must, but if you're denying that this record had a significant influence on music, you're just spouting crap. It'd be like me questioning the influence or importance of Yes, King Crimson, ELP, or Genesis. I couldn't care less about their influence, importance, or whatever it was they were passing off as music, but I don't deny its influence or importance.

    And yes, the Pretenders were important, and so were the Roches. I guess it's easy to forget how significant it was to have a musical guest slot on Saturday Night Live in the mid- and late 70s. Patti Smith played the first season, and, in fact, sang 'Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine,' the opening line to her version of Gloria, a few minutes after the midnight hour on an Easter Sunday; 15 years before Sinead O'Connor's tantrum. And I well remember the Roches on that program, and if you think it didn't help them sell more records than any buzz from five similarly obscure artists combined in any given week on a Leno or Letterman show, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for ya. Their performance had a quality to it that the Lilith collection of walking estrogen couldn't come close to. However, before it became that watered-down, I was reminded of that Roches shot when I saw Suzanne Vega perform the night after her first album was released.

    Without Patti Smith, the influence of Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro, and people like that would certainly have stood on its own, but Horses offered artistic counterbalance to records like Court & Spark that led to the whole 'women in rock' thing. Which was significant whether you'd like to believe it or not. That it even spawned a Lollapalooza-like festival that went on for a few years is enough evidence of the significance of the movement, even if I'm not any more interested in arty, acoustic-guitar-strumming alternachix with attitudes as repulsive to men as menstrual period blood, any more than you are.

    To deny that Phair, Harvey, & Morrissette had a significant impact on music is as feckless as insisting that Roxy Music was as meaningless as that other joker was claiming. But since I know you realize that, well, that's not the reason I ain't emailed ya yet. My bad. Soon.

    I don't like others.

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