Week 12: 50 Albums That Changed Music

[MasterCylinder]

You guys are wrong about Troy and the pimp sound.
I mean, he digs RED STAR.





lol !

[BradH]

It ain't the streets...

That notion has already been dismissed in this thread. I noticed you didn't respond to it.

Think you can find it?

[Heywood Djahblomie]

Oh yeah, you nailed it. Thanks for clearing that up.

don't sweat it, its the least I can do

and to think I cleared it up without tossing in a bunch of obscure names and musical references to make myself look like some self appointed guru

[noddin0ff]

Could it be fair to say that KOB influenced listeners more that it influenced musicians? I would think most people (who were not into Jazz at the time and came later) got their introduction to Jazz via KOB. It's accessible. It's good. And it provides enough of everything for a curious listener to use as a base for exploration. I think its fair to say that most people who liked KOB found a world of jazz they also liked.

[nobody]

No rec is for EVERYBODY. The chances that someone wouldn't like this, yet love the older stuff, in this day & age, may be slim, but they are far from nil, in spite of what you believe.

Just thought I'd mention how true this is.

My wife is a great example...doesn't care for Miles Davis at all...can't stand most 50s and 60s jazz outside a little Chet Baker and the occasional jazz ballad when she's trying to relax or go to sleep, but she really does like some older New Orleans stuff, big band, swing and such. I think its the higher energy that she digs. Ya know, something made for people who wanna get up and move, not sit around nodding their head.


Oh yeah...and I personally do dig Kind of Blue alot; I still have fond memories of resting by an open wiondow with no Ac in the summer and an old transistor radio playing songs off it many years ago when I really did start to like jazz for the first time. But think its really lame how people make these lists and feel like they have to give some token nod to a jazz record and toss this one on the list. There are tons of influential jazz records, and I'd argue guys like Armstrong were more influential than Davis if you're gonna only pick one guy to hang it on anyway.

Really, I wish they'd either pick a more diverse list and truly make some sort of attempt at encompassing a well-rounded musical diet, or just stick to rock/pop/whatever rather than think they are being diverse by tossing out the token Miles Davis record for jazz, a Johnny cash or something for country, a Bob Marley for the rest of the planet and then feeling they've covered everything else just sticking with another 45 albums of rock/pop. Just seems stupid to me.

[3-LockBox]

Really, I wish they'd either pick a more diverse list and truly make some sort of attempt at encompassing a well-rounded musical diet, or just stick to rock/pop/whatever rather than think they are being diverse by tossing out the token Miles Davis record for jazz, a Johnny Cash or something for country, a Bob Marley for the rest of the planet and then feeling they've covered everything else just sticking with another 45 albums of rock/pop. Just seems stupid to me.

But that's the way some music afficianados are...I know people who have copies of Davis' Britches Brew, but when you look at it (and I do) it looks virtually un-touched. It's cool to own, and usually predominately displayed, but no one listens to it, at least to my experience anyway. Same with Cash. I never was a huge fan of his. Oh, I admire his career and his commitment to art but I find most of his attempts at modern rock unlistenable (Rusty Cage was ok I guess). But man did he ever hit it big with the hipster/snob college crowd. I don't own any Cash (but my parents did). I guess the biggest thing I like about the Cash story is how country music industry turns their back on him in the '80s/90s, he becomes uber hip, then they scramble (I imagine) to reclaim him.

As for Marley, I have to plead guilty. I own Legend (remastered) and thats it. I've heard a few of his albums, but Legend suits me fine. I've listened to other reggae acts and while most of them have something I like, I'm just not compelled to collect them. And lets face it, very few of them are all that fresh anymore. And I don't want to hear any rasta rap either.

[nobody]

I guess that's my point. if you're not into music outside the rock/pop realm just say so and go on. Don't be all actin' like you're mister music god across all genre lines just 'cause you can name check one or two albums deemed the cool ones to like from genres you don't really like or know much of anything about. Either find people to chime in who have the knowledge of and love for other genres and make the list truly inclusive or just stick to what you actually know.

And, for the record...*****es Brew never did a thing for me...bought it, listened a couple times, sold it back. Johnny Cash is fantastic, been listening since I was a kid and don't care how cool/uncool he is at any given time. Nice when other people jump on the wagon, but I won't miss 'em when they jump off. (although it is nice to be able to play his music without people running to put something else on) And, that Legend album really does have some great material on it and can serve as a wonderful introduction to Bob Marley, but he's got tons more good stuff out there if you like that...and only listening to Bob Marley for reggae is basically like only listeneing to the Beatles for rock...it's a big pool...jump on in.

[3-LockBox]

I guess that's my point. if you're not into music outside the rock/pop realm just say so and go on. Don't be all actin' like you're mister music god across all genre lines just 'cause you can name check one or two albums deemed the cool ones to like from genres you don't really like or know much of anything about.

Isn't that what music boards are for?

[dean_martin]

Same with Cash. I never was a huge fan of his. Oh, I admire his career and his commitment to art but I find most of his attempts at modern rock unlistenable (Rusty Cage was ok I guess). But man did he ever hit it big with the hipster/snob college crowd. I don't own any Cash (but my parents did). I guess the biggest thing I like about the Cash story is how country music industry turns their back on him in the '80s/90s, he becomes uber hip, then they scramble (I imagine) to reclaim him.

I think that's a very accurate take on Cash for today, but what I find interesting is that I've not picked up one of the "American Recordings" albums, but I have most of the Sun recordings in one form or another and had my picture taken with every life-sized Cash photo/poster at Sun Studio in Memphis. I've got the vinyl version of Live at Folsom Prison on wish lists at Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct but the release date keeps getting pushed back. That Sun stuff has an underlying drive that gets me going. I even cover "Train of Love" for my friends and family. When I'm driving, I enevitably wind up listening to "Orange Blossom Special" at some point. Luv it! But, as for the American Recordings albums, I'll give an example: I'd much rather listen to Leonard Cohen singing "Bird on the Wire" than Cash.

And yes, I like Kind of Blue. It was my introduction to jazz and sent me off searching for Coltrane and Evans stuff which led to others as well.

[Swish]

.Even the concept of the thread is faulty (sorry Swish).

...this weekly thing to enliven the board, you sure have posted an awful lot. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I was going for, good, bad or indifferent. No need for an apology, I just want everyone to keep responding. If someone thinks you're full of crap, they'll let you know, and it appears they have done just that.

Swish

[nobody]

Isn't that what music boards are for?

Exactly. I expect more from people who are actually getting paid though.

[Troy]

Hey wait . . . who's getting paid!?!

Yes, boards like this are for pontificating. I have no problem with that. It's when people feel the need to lay some kind of superiority trip on others because they think their taste is the only answer when most of us understand that music appreciation is a totally subjective . . . subject. There is no right or wrong, only opinions. So I was simply pissed because that Loser deemed anyone that doesn't like Kinda Blue to be less than human and undeserving of THEIR opinion. That is all.

Cash, ugh. Influential? Oh hell yes, and on many things that I really dig. But I think the artists that picked up his ball and ran with it are better than he was. Ditto Brian Wilson, Miles and dozens of others.

[MindGoneHaywire]

don't sweat it, its the least I can do

and to think I cleared it up without tossing in a bunch of obscure names and musical references to make myself look like some self appointed guru

You should try it sometime. No better way that I know of to bring out the inner Eric Cartman.

But I agree with you that the mention that one is a musician is meaningless. Knowing something about this or that from the perspective of a player rarely if ever amounts to much in discussions like this. And the posters who feel it necessary to let us all know that they're approaching a discussion from the standpoint of a musician rather than as a listener frequently think they've got the key to the universe because they possess a skill. I reject this, so I stoop to mentioning that I also know how to play an instrument; if someone's just spouting outright crap, I don't see anything wrong with them knowing that the poster calling them on it actually knows how to play one of these things also. And I like my crappy houses, and those of others I helped build. It don't mean squat here, and if Miles Davis' ghost took a look at this thread, whether he thought this one or that one or me or the other guy were right or wrong, it does still entitle each of us to our opinions. I won't deny that to anyone, but I'd be more likely to assign more validity to a poster that claims to be a player if they have an opinion that makes sense.

I agree with 3-Lock on B*tches Brew, and on the concept of hip, 'important' records in general (Lester Bangs touched on this nicely with a paragraph or two on the 2nd Velvet Underground album once). But I don't begrudge Johnny Cash the hipster cache his records with Rick Rubin brought him, mostly because I think they're good recs (except the 4th). I think there are far more deserving targets of ire, but if you want to aim yr cannon that way, have at it. I don't see it. Avoiding them because Leonard Cohen did a better Bird On A Wire? Then you'll never hear him do what I think is a better version of one of Beck's toons, or one of Nick Cave's. A great reading of a Tom Waits song, an even better rendition of a Loudon Wainwright ditty. In my view, artistically on a par with anything he did for 30 years prior.

But the intent of the list was to identify 50 records that influenced music (presumably the ones that influenced music the most). It was published in a newspaper in the UK, where they have some different ideas about music than we do (which will be reflected later on in the list). There will be choices that will once again be railed against because none of us liked them, while it will once again be ignored that this is not the criteria for why they're on the list. I'm not big on making predictions, but I'll stick by that one. And I'll be happy to be proved wrong, because if that happens, it will be because people actually understood the intent of the piece.

Anything other than pop and rock music is sorely underrepresented here, suggesting that that either the writers of the piece don't care about the first 40 or 50 years of the record industry, or they think their readers don't. Sadly, both of those are probably true. Anyone else think that if this had been a list in a newspaper in Paris that jazz records would've been far more prominent than they are on this list?

[dean_martin]

But I don't begrudge Johnny Cash the hipster cache his records with Rick Rubin brought him, mostly because I think they're good recs (except the 4th). I think there are far more deserving targets of ire, but if you want to aim yr cannon that way, have at it. I don't see it. Avoiding them because Leonard Cohen did a better Bird On A Wire? Then you'll never hear him do what I think is a better version of one of Beck's toons, or one of Nick Cave's. A great reading of a Tom Waits song, an even better rendition of a Loudon Wainwright ditty. In my view, artistically on a par with anything he did for 30 years prior.

I'm almost floored that I said something that could be construed as begrudging Johnny Cash anything, but I reckon I did. My intent was to display childish disdain for the Johnny-come-lately fans, but not for The Man in Black himself, and even that intent was off-the-cuff. I've heard tracks from the Rick Rubin-produced albums, but admittedly I haven't opened the door and walked in. I've peered through the key hole and didn't see/hear anything that made me jump. I've sampled tracks from all 4 albums (I think there's a 5th now) to determine which one to start with and couldn't decide. At least I know now that I shouldn't start with the 4th. (Thanks, MGH.) I'm not avoiding them. But if any of those albums have the Tennessee Two vibe (which is my personal preference) then I don't know about it. Music is a progressive thing with me. If I explore an artist's work, then move onto another artist or even another genre, I find it hard to derail the train and come back to that artist's subsequent output, even if the artist was/is a favorite based on previous output.

[MindGoneHaywire]

Sorry, that first part was in response to 3-Lock, I should have been more clear.

For the most part I wouldn't consider the American series to be reminiscent of Cash's early stuff. The first album is entirely solo acoustic, the second one has some of Tom Petty's Heartbreakers...but there are a lot of ballads. It's more Dylanesque than anything else, to my ears. The 4th album has performances that a lot of people seemed to love, but sounded tired & unnecessary to me; the 5th I like better.

What Rick Rubin did with Neil Diamond last year wasn't all that far off. Major difference being Diamond is known for writing his own stuff, of course, but otherwise there's a lot of similarity, especially with the first American album.

[3-LockBox]

But I don't begrudge Johnny Cash the hipster cache his records with Rick Rubin brought him, mostly because I think they're good recs (except the 4th). I think there are far more deserving targets of ire, but if you want to aim yr cannon that way, have at it. I don't see it. Avoiding them because Leonard Cohen did a better Bird On A Wire? Then you'll never hear him do what I think is a better version of one of Beck's toons, or one of Nick Cave's. A great reading of a Tom Waits song, an even better rendition of a Loudon Wainwright ditty. In my view, artistically on a par with anything he did for 30 years prior.

Oh, I don't begrudge Cash anything. Especially the success he enjoyed under Rubin, especially since the very genre Cash helped stay afloat in the '60s turned its back on him and wouldn't give him a contract. Its just not my cuppa joe. And I don't own any token Cash recs cuz well, there's just so much more I want to own.

[Resident Loser]

Huh? Please post something that makes some sense.

In the language of YECH: bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! One thing about you: I do find you entertaining, even if you can't seem capable to make a point with something to back it up.

Give that man a big ceegar!!!

The second part of your post addresses the issue...

All of it...the list...this exercise (the series of threads)...this forum...it's all subjective and anecdotal...can't be proven or disproven...there is no way to measure it...Unless you want to bring sales figures into it, and that's not the point apparently and I (nor can anyone else) can't "back up" their opinion...

So each and every "debate" (for lack of better words) devolves into "is...isn't"...since there is no way to measure opinion (other than sales figures) the point is mo-o-o-o-o-t...You can either agree to disagree or have cheap shots taken e.g.:

"...except that the thread then screams out for someone to challenge the crap you put into it. Especially since you seem to fancy yrself as someone who 'gets it,' what with all the witty sig quotes..."

And the "hipster" references (whatever that means)...Hip I ain't..

But I sorta' kinda think had I not badmouthed the first recording and it's spawn...hmmm...but frigate! I'm up for the game...

jimHJJ(...and always will be...)

P.S. To whom it may concern: And it ain't because it's MD or JC or whoever...'coulda been Clarence Phlegm and his Phlegm-tones, it's the music and the mood it can set, so lose the history of jazz routine and who's who of hacks or the boppers vs. new jazz schtick...it's all just filler...

[Resident Loser]

That notion has already been dismissed in this thread. I noticed you didn't respond to it.

Think you can find it?

...can you kindly elaborate on WTF your point is?

jimHJJ(...I think you done tooken tings outa context...)

[Resident Loser]

Could it be fair to say that KOB influenced listeners more that it influenced musicians? I would think most people (who were not into Jazz at the time and came later) got their introduction to Jazz via KOB. It's accessible. It's good. And it provides enough of everything for a curious listener to use as a base for exploration. I think its fair to say that most people who liked KOB found a world of jazz they also liked.

...that's the ticket...a bit more PC than my overt and inadvertent "assault" on some of the sensibilities 'round here...Which BTW was taken as an assault or personal affront for what reason? I don't have a clue...I opined and folks got p!$$ed...

jimHJJ(...ain't that a b!tch...)

[Resident Loser]

. I have no problem with that. It's when people feel the need to lay some kind of superiority trip on others because they think their taste is the only answer when most of us understand that music appreciation is a totally subjective . . . subject. There is no right or wrong, only opinions. So I was simply pissed because that Loser deemed anyone that doesn't like Kinda Blue to be less than human and undeserving of THEIR opinion. That is all.

...and Troy boy, that's on you and your inferiority complex...lotta' baggage there...Like when I was addressing MGH...

jimHJJ(...nothing to do with me...)

[Resident Loser]

...this weekly thing to enliven the board, you sure have posted an awful lot. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I was going for, good, bad or indifferent. No need for an apology, I just want everyone to keep responding. If someone thinks you're full of crap, they'll let you know, and it appears they have done just that.

Swish

...can't anyone read something without reading into it?

Numero uno: I continue posting my cr@p as a response to all the incoming cr@p...and ALL of it certainly belongs in a fecal container...

Next...I don't find fault with your concept of the thread, but if you care to take a look at my response to Stone, you should get the drift...although why it wasn't obvious from the outset (as that paragraph in post #24 says it all) concerns me...

And as an aside to nobody...if any of your remarks were directed at me, if you take the time to re-read all I've posted to this thread everyhing is there...some of that conceptual continuity...if you don't get it...well...I may be gross and perverted, obsessed and deranged but I never claimed omniscience...

jimHJJ(...as I see it, the list is giving me more time off for good behavior...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

...can you kindly elaborate on WTF your point is?

jimHJJ(...I think you done tooken tings outa context...)

You may find this difficult to believe, and I'm sure it won't take you long to let us all know how much you don't care, but I am glad that there is a rec that we agree on. I actually liked the 'mood' thing you scribbled about it. But then you go on & characterize it as something that...


...results in Troy's ire. I have to agree with him. Taking the stance you do, you create a perception that you are affecting a superior pose in how you relate what you think someone's supposed to get from this rec...not that you're not entitled to do so...but in talking about what should be for someone else if they DON'T like the rec, this is the sort of response you're going to receive on this board. There's not a lot of positivity in all this animosity & hostility, but there is at least the fact that we care enough about music to argue about it in this fashion. Seeing KOB esconced so close to the top of so many lists, well, you can contrast that to rock...where we've spent nearly 30 years now with lists from here or there that rank Led Zep IV or DSOTM or Sgt. Pepper or whatever as the 'best' this or that...this rec occupies a similar place in the perception of many people who don't scrutinize these lists as we would. And I've seen it said that if you don't like one of those exalted recs (which sometimes include hipper fare, punk et al, a Sex Pistols rec or something like that), then rock isn't for you. And that's just ridiculous.

If ya took a second & found a different way of saying it, then ya get a different reaction. Then again, sometimes it doesn't matter, since Troy took my statement that if you don't like this rec then 'quite possibly' jazz isn't something you'll enjoy, but left out the 'quite possibly in his interpretation of my meaning. You can view that any way you wish, but for me it's a matter of not overreaching. Now go back & take a look at yr first post again & tell me that that aspect of it isn't an overreach.

Beyond that, and I'm trying to be as civil as possible, what I was trying to say is that there are elements to this rec that encompass some, or quite a bit, of what you said you didn't like about the first rec. Continue to go ahead & like & dislike as you please, but when I don't like one rec for one reason yet like another even though the reason for disliking the other rec exists, even if not to an extent that could be considered obvious, then I think it's worth explaining. Better than you have. Jazz is okay to be arty & perhaps, even pretentious, but not rock? The cats are cool, but not the East Village hipsters? The differences, beyond the style of music, are far more a case of style than substance, and that's what makes it puzzling when the reason you give for not liking one thing is something that gets a free pass on a rec you pen a nice little tale about being transported to...wherever it brings you to.

If that's just a matter of being a jazz snob, that'd be one thing. And jazz snobs generally don't have a problem owning up to such. It's a position that seems odd for someone who's not. Again, like whatever ya want. But there are inconsistencies in yr posts that stand out given the tone of the posts, and I'm only bothering to put this up in an attempt to find out if you see them or not. Like Brad said, you haven't addressed one point that I brought up previously, so there it is. No need to prolong this further unless there's something to discuss.

"Just sayin." I'm off to Yankee Stadium. See y'all.

[Resident Loser]

...folks I've said it to (my seemingly objectionable phrase, that is ) in face-to-face situations, grin or chuckle and seem to get it...maybe when confronted with an endless array of possibilities, they are grateful for some input from someone other than the pimply-faced record store employees...And a big P.S. I never shoved it down anyone's throat...they've all approached me...

Whatever, no one I've said it to directly reacted badly or took it as some sort of insult, so when I relate my tale with no specific recipient, in this anonymous forum, and folks take it personal, it makes me wonder...and I'm sure this'll go over big too!!!

Along the lines of noddinOff's post...if you can't get next to this recording, which to me seems mellow, safe and accessible, maybe jazz ain't for you and you should stick with what you consider music...Lord knows one could do "worse"...like Kenny G or some fusion...;-)

jimHJJ(...imagine a neophyte takin' home Eric Dolphy or Sun Ra...might tend to put 'em off...)

[nobody]

And as an aside to nobody...if any of your remarks were directed at me

Not everyone around here is obsessed with you. I got bored pretty much after the first go round. If I wanna take a shot at you, I'll let ya know.

[Resident Loser]

Not everyone around here is obsessed with you. I got bored pretty much after the first go round. If I wanna take a shot at you, I'll let ya know.

...for your response and candor...

jimHJJ(...now that's an understanding I can live with...)