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  1. #1
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    Week 12: 50 Albums That Changed Music

    I'm on the road tomorrow thru Wednesday, so once again I find it necessary to post this before Monday. This week's entry is the first of its genre, and one that was somewhat expected, although I know it will garner some negative responses based on comments made about it on RR in the past. I happen to like it very much and believe it was quite influential in the world of jazz, and it would be Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (1959)

    A rare example of revolutionary music that almost everyone liked from the moment they heard it. Its cool, spacey, open-textured approach marked a complete break with the prevalent 'hard bop' style. The effect, based on simple scales, called modes, was fresh, delicate, approachable but surprisingly expressive. Others picked up on it and 'modern jazz' has been part of the language ever since. The album also became the media's favourite source of mood music. Without this there would be no ominous, brooking, atmospheric trumpet behin a million radio plays and TV documentaries.

    This one is still among my favorite jazz recordings, along with Giant Steps, Heavy Weather, the Wes Montgomery Trio, and a number of others, and will always find its way to my cd player.

    Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  2. #2
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    I like this album.
    Because of your thread, I found it in my stash of CDs and I am listening to it as I write this reply.
    I understand this was a release that got a lot of attention and perhaps set some new rules in modern jazz but, I confess I don't know enough about the genre and the culture to provide an educated comment.
    Good music.

  3. #3
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    With the possible exception of recent underground/punk music, I think it's safe to say that no other genre of music has as many snobs as Jazz. Anything that attracts attention to itself by "regular folk" gets crucified by the old guard.

    I think that was the case this album, but TFB for Jazz snobs. It deserves to be in the list beyond a shadow of a doubt.

  4. #4
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    The...

    ...opening bass figure receives it's response...seemingly, a musical shrug of the shoulders in a two-chord inflection of the piece's title...small spots illuminate the stage...each one a miniature sunburst compared to the flickering candles hinting at the red checkered tablecloths...The tinkle of 'cubes and swizzle sticks fades into well deserved oblivion as the plumes of cigarette smoke rise like the key changes...My head tilts back as I swirl my tumbler of Kentucky's best (straight, no chaser) and the horn player reaches slightly beyond his grasp...but that's OK...What's the problem with a mis-step now and again when everything else is so right...maybe next time...perhaps a future avenue to explore...

    Well into the second piece I'm abruptly pulled from that other time and place by another kind of horn as two miscreants and their vehicles vie for the same physical space amid bleats and blats and coarse language...after all I am in the Stop and Shop parking lot and my mission is, in reality, some chicken and a jar of salsa verde...

    I happened on this recording some time ago...a novice at the genre...in of all places one of those PBS-oriented mail-order catalogs...Wireless or Signals, I forget which...but I wanted to expand my exposure beyond a meager sampling of jazz records I'd collected...They said it was must have and I believed them...They were right...

    From that opening dialog to the Moorish tint of Flamenco Sketches it is a near-perfect album IMHO...best late at night and in dim lighting, even tho' my drink nowadays is sweetened iced-tea...looks like bourbon...

    Nearly everyone who responds to online polls cites it as a fave...Why it is considered seminal? Other than it's popularity I don't have a clue...Seems to be the first where Davis is totally responsible for the material; maybe it's the sense of conceptual continuity it displays. Is it that it's stereo and from a mainstream record company as opposed to a niche label? And surprisingly, that despite it's modality it is still accessible and thoroughly listenable to those who swear they don't like jazz...Did it change everything that came thereafter? Was it responsible for the change from be-bop and simply reworking of pop standards? Again I plead ignorance...I know less about jazz than I do about classical, and I don't know much about that...just always trying to learn...

    I've given it as a gift and recommended it to strangers who were floundering, looking through Jazz selections, quite confused as to what to buy as a baby-step...I've told them "...if you don't like this, you have no soul"...and after my revisit yesterday, I'd add to that "...and you have no business listening to music..."

    jimHJJ(...so much music...so little time...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  5. #5
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    I guess I can't dispute its influence, but I don't know enough about jazz to really know how big of an influence this was on the genre (so, please enlighten me). All I know is that I purchased it, played it once and it has been on the shelf since. It just doesn't do anything for me (and very little jazz does outside of some offbeat stuff such as Ornette Coleman).
    And the world will turn to flowing pink vapor stew.

  6. #6
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I've told them "...if you don't like this, you have no soul"...and after my revisit yesterday, I'd add to that "...and you have no business listening to music..."
    Well kiss my boil-covered can, ya loser!

    Statements like these . . . well, how can you claim that this list wallows in a stew of misplaced hyperbole and then say stupid things like this?

    Your soulless pal,

    etc.

  7. #7
    Suspended 3-LockBox's Avatar
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    I wasn't around when this came out. I did pick it up years ago when someone recommended it to me and I've always liked it. I haven't listened to enough of the jazz that came after to know how influential it is, but most every jazz artist from that era and beyond cites this album as influencial, so its a slamdunk for a list like this. If you pay any attention to movie theme music though, you'd definately hear this album's influence. A lot of film noir used this style of jazz to great effect. Quincy Jones dipped heavily into Davis' style for movie scores like In the Heat Of The Night.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    You nailed it, Troy.

    From someone who doesn't seem to know that it's far from accepted that Miles was 'totally responsible for the material.' Funny how a guy who's a pro in NYC would never have become acquainted with the reason why Bill Evans disputed this, and holds co-credit on some pressings...but not others. Many familiar with the issue saw him as the sole author of a tune Miles claims sole credit on.

    The guy who tells other people they have no business listening to music...doesn't seem to know this.

    This is certainly among my favorite jazz albums, and one I've listened to as much if not more than any other, possibly excepting Coltrane's Blue Train. But the self-righteous 'this is brilliant' schtick that's great when it's a record you can use to accuse a non-fan of not possessing a soul, but not so great when it's pretentious NYC artiness in rock music made in the same town only 8 years later is as laughable as any of the other garbage previously posted in any of the other threads.

    Beyond the use of ambient music as background as is described here, and so forth, one could also make a case that its modal properties led directly to the experimentation of Coltrane, Coleman et al, much of which, it should be noted, has been dismissed with far more disdain than our pal here objected to the recs in this thread he doesn't like, or the people the recs influenced.

    If you don't like this rec, I would say, it's quite possible you won't like jazz in general. But I wouldn't inject the stupidity into that comment by rendering it an absolute, or anything close. It's a good rec. I think it deserves to be listened to again & again. It certainly was influential. But you're just as likely to put up an obstacle to someone liking jazz by saying such things. I don't see the point.

    I don't like others.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    My friend Swish best expresses my sentiments on this one:

    "This one is still among my favorite jazz recordings, along with Giant Steps, Heavy Weather, the Wes Montgomery Trio, and a number of others, and will always find its way to my cd player.

    Swish"

    Thanks for keeping this interesting & often controversial thread going, pal!

    Cheers,
    audiobill

  10. #10
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Boy-o-boy...

    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    You nailed it, Troy.

    From someone who doesn't seem to know that it's far from accepted that Miles was 'totally responsible for the material.' Funny how a guy who's a pro in NYC would never have become acquainted with the reason why Bill Evans disputed this, and holds co-credit on some pressings...but not others. Many familiar with the issue saw him as the sole author of a tune Miles claims sole credit on.

    The guy who tells other people they have no business listening to music...doesn't seem to know this.

    This is certainly among my favorite jazz albums, and one I've listened to as much if not more than any other, possibly excepting Coltrane's Blue Train. But the self-righteous 'this is brilliant' schtick that's great when it's a record you can use to accuse a non-fan of not possessing a soul, but not so great when it's pretentious NYC artiness in rock music made in the same town only 8 years later is as laughable as any of the other garbage previously posted in any of the other threads.

    Beyond the use of ambient music as background as is described here, and so forth, one could also make a case that its modal properties led directly to the experimentation of Coltrane, Coleman et al, much of which, it should be noted, has been dismissed with far more disdain than our pal here objected to the recs in this thread he doesn't like, or the people the recs influenced.

    If you don't like this rec, I would say, it's quite possible you won't like jazz in general. But I wouldn't inject the stupidity into that comment by rendering it an absolute, or anything close. It's a good rec. I think it deserves to be listened to again & again. It certainly was influential. But you're just as likely to put up an obstacle to someone liking jazz by saying such things. I don't see the point.
    ...you folks do get b!tchy don'cha...As I've said, my knowledge of the genre is sorely lacking...While I have a tenuous grasp of the periods in classical and who begat who musically, unfortunately I have little idea how WC Handy morphed into Scott Joplin into Louis Armstrong into Dizzie Gillespie and so on and so forth and shoobie-doobie-oobie...so friggin' shoot me, but I'm tryin'...And a BIG P.S. I was a rocker and jazz wasn't "...what they called rock'n'roll..." (with apologies to Mr. Knopfler)

    Re: authorship...I'm goin' by some discographies who give songwriters names for Davis' other albums from Gershwin to Adderly to Cyndi Lauper et al...KOB don't...and yes, I've seen mention of some things (vamps and bridges) that were a product of others involved in the sessions...you yourself say it's hit-or-miss for proper credit...and in case you didn't get the overall gist of it, I posted most my remarks in the form of a question...or at least in an interrogative form...Don't have an answer...

    Did the record influence anyone...don't know...honestly don't care...I do see a difference between Birth Of The Cool in '49-50 straddling the line of the big-band/be-bop eras...to '55-56s Relaxin' With The Miles Davis Quintet and the other titles of that last-of- Prestige series to '59s KOB with it's much more blues influenced tracks...

    'Brilliant"??? Who said that? Not me baby? Obviously I failed in my little novella of sorts...This sound of this recording transports me to those dark, smokey places of the imagination and in doing that it is "near perfect"...Does it belong on this "influential" list? They (the compilers) said it, I didn't...but then again I don't think much of the list to begin with, as some of you may have gathered...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH
    ...If you don't like this rec, I would say, it's quite possible you won't like jazz in general...
    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    ...I've given it as a gift and recommended it to strangers who were floundering, looking through Jazz selections, quite confused as to what to buy as a baby-step...I've told them "...if you don't like this, you have no soul"...and after my revisit yesterday, I'd add to that "...and you have no business listening to music..."
    Notice the above quotes...exactly what's the diff? I'm not proselytizing to the uninterested...simply opening up that "green door" and revealing some of the secrets it's keeping to those who are curious...Anyone get the ref?

    No it doesn't speak of pimps, pushers and disease, but once you get in the groove IMNSHO it can speak to those who do have a musical soul and are willing to think and hear beyond banal lyrics and five note melodies...

    And just in case it slipped by the sound-bite conditioned mind, the list still $uck$...this recording is cool...

    jimHJJ(...Don't like my postings...write a strong letter to the Times...)
    Last edited by Resident Loser; 10-03-2006 at 06:50 AM.
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  11. #11
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    Oh come ON Loser! You trying to tell me that "If you don't like this you probably won't like jazz." and "...if you don't like this, you have no soul / have no business listening to music." are the same? Your quotes are so far over the top as to be ridiculous. Even MGH's comment is a big stretch.

    Villify me for disliking "Kinda Blue" if you must, but I MUCH prefer the fusion like Weather Report, Return to Forever, Zappa etc. that was influenced by it. MGH saying I won't like jazz if I dislike Kinda Blue is just plain wrong. Your insinuation is just plain insulting.

    And thanks for not addressing me directly. Thanks also for implying that I only like musical forms that "speak of pimps, pushers and disease" or "banal lyrics and five note melodies..." because I don't dig Miles. As if music or freekin LIFE was that black and white!

  12. #12
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    I think he was referring to me, with the 'pimps, pushers,' etc. remark seeming to refer to Lou Reed's songs. I guess leeches like Fred Tolbert get a free pass, because he finds the other records to be arty & pretentious, in a bad way.

    We like to wear the 'my knowledge is sorely lacking' hat as well as the 'I tell people if they don't like this, they have no soul,' or 'they have no business listening to music hat.' Gee, that's strange, if someone whose knowledge was sorely lacking, I sure wouldn't trust such strong advice.

    I'm not sure why this has to escalate to this level, but it's sure not because I want it that way. I find it difficult to not respond to these sorts of wildly divergent positions. I know that other record was criticized because of its NY-specific artiness & pretense, but somehow this one isn't any of those things. It's one thing to be a hipster who's into rock, another who's into jazz. It's almost beyond belief.

    I'm still trying to figure out why someone who readily admits that their knowledge of the genre is sorely lacking, presumes to tell others if they don't like this one album, that they have no business listening to music?

    Try Music Lane over at the Asylum. There's a downright beligerrent mofo over there who's a huge jazz aficionado, yet virulently anti-KOB & Miles & Coltrane in general. A week ago he put up a post saying how many sax players were superior & even more talented than Coltrane, including...Flip Phillips. You tell HIM he has no business listening to music if he doesn't like KOB. He may be incredibly wrongheaded, but since you don't seem interested in anything I have to say, you might as well deal with someone from whom you might actually learn something.

    But he's not the only guy over there who's huge into jazz who feels that KOB is overrated & that its importance is well-overstated, that it's the sign of a jazz newbie. You might learn something from them as well, if you wanted to, that is. I have, even if I disagree with them (as do many, including folks who know a lot more about jazz than I do) on KOB. I would be quite curious to get a reaction from someone who was willing to admit they said these sorts of things to people who had never heard this album, or didn't like it. And you might well take their opinions seriously than you seem to take mine.

    I'm not trying to steer any traffic over there, mind you. But there are some good jazz discussions over there, sometimes some very good ones. Hell, there's a pro over there who was calling me ignorant just a few days ago based on my mention things I've read in books he apparently hasn't, and is willing to dismiss (like, ya know, Miles' autobiography, which comes in handy if you get into disagreements with people who may have crossed paths with him over time & therefore think they hold the key to the psyche of the guy). There's also a guy who shared some insights to KOB, as he had the privilege to listen to the master tapes some time back, outtakes, false starts, chatter between takes, and all.

    I find that to be far more productive than reading these blatherings from this genius who thinks that telling people they have no business listening to music...over this? Oh, brother. A guy who claims to know something about classical music says this. You mean you've never encountered a classical player who is so rooted into playing only what's written on the chart, that they simply do NOT enjoy anything resembling improvisation? Maybe you haven't. I have. You're going to tell THEM they have no business listening to music? I would anxiously await the results of that little experiment.

    Troy, I chose my comment carefully, but, beyond that, I personally would consider Return To Forever and Weather Report to be fusion, not "jazz." So I stand by that. And I don't think it's off-base, because you have to remember how little jazz has changed in the past 50 years, with only one major offshoot that occurred not long after this here rec. Many, probably most, people who like the stuff do like this here rec, and vice versa. Those who like jazz, but not this rec, are certainly around, and I've seen some very interesting dissenting views on the topic, but it's far more the exception to the rule, so I'll stand by that. But I find it easy to refrain from issuing such silly advice--especially on topics I have to admit my knowledge is actually sorely lacking on. Good grief.

    I don't like others.

  13. #13
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Firstly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    Oh come ON Loser! You trying to tell me that "If you don't like this you probably won't like jazz." and "...if you don't like this, you have no soul / have no business listening to music." are the same? Your quotes are so far over the top as to be ridiculous. Even MGH's comment is a big stretch.

    Villify me for disliking "Kinda Blue" if you must, but I MUCH prefer the fusion like Weather Report, Return to Forever, Zappa etc. that was influenced by it. MGH saying I won't like jazz if I dislike Kinda Blue is just plain wrong. Your insinuation is just plain insulting.

    And thanks for not addressing me directly. Thanks also for implying that I only like musical forms that "speak of pimps, pushers and disease" or "banal lyrics and five note melodies..." because I don't dig Miles. As if music or freekin LIFE was that black and white!
    ...I was responding to MGH...you can read into my response anywhichway you wanna' and I've not yet said word one to you...however since you asked sooo nice...

    Quote Originally Posted by troy
    ...well, how can you claim that this list wallows in a stew of misplaced hyperbole and then say stupid things like this?...
    Did I ever say the underlined?

    Did I say this recording belongs on the list?

    Did I say it was influential?

    Did I ever say you have to like it?

    Might the answer be definitive "no" to all the above?

    I don't have the time to diagram sentences or coach you in any sort of remedial reading exercises...Of all the things you might be villified for, disliking this recording (or anything else for that matter) is the least of them to be concerned about...

    Some time back there was a 7UP ad that was running on the east coast...In it the tag line was " make 7UP yours!..." I'll allow you to disregard the word "make" and the number "7" at a convenient time and place of your choosing to decode my special response...

    jimHJJ(...was that direct enough for you?...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  14. #14
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Hmmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    ...I'm not sure why this has to escalate to this level, but it's sure not because I want it that way.
    If that's the case, just ignore my posts....

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH
    ...I find it difficult to not respond to these sorts of wildly divergent positions. It's one thing to be a hipster who's into rock, another who's into jazz. It's almost beyond belief.
    Why? I also like Gregorian chant and Bill Monroe...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH
    ...I'm still trying to figure out why someone who readily admits that their knowledge of the genre is sorely lacking, presumes to tell others if they don't like this one album, that they have no business listening to music?
    I'm a relative Jazz noob...Hampton, Harden, early Coltrane...some of the genre is not for the noob...If you can't dig this, don't bother...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH
    ...Try Music Lane over at the Asylum. There's a downright beligerrent mofo over there who's a huge jazz aficionado, yet virulently anti-KOB & Miles & Coltrane in general. A week ago he put up a post saying how many sax players were superior & even more talented than Coltrane, including...Flip Phillips. You tell HIM he has no business listening to music if he doesn't like KOB. He may be incredibly wrongheaded, but since you don't seem interested in anything I have to say, you might as well deal with someone from whom you might actually learn something.
    AA ain't my cuppa, gov...Ain't sayin' MD and JC are the cat's @$$, besides early jazz guitar interests me more...the early horn stuff is accessible...B!tches Brew and A Love Supreme don't click right now...KOB and Blue Train does...And when did I say the above underlined...give me something to work with or that rings true and I'm all ears...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH
    ...I find that to be far more productive than reading these blatherings from this genius who thinks that telling people they have no business listening to music...over this? Oh, brother. A guy who claims to know something about classical music says this. You mean you've never encountered a classical player who is so rooted into playing only what's written on the chart, that they simply do NOT enjoy anything resembling improvisation? Maybe you haven't. I have. You're going to tell THEM they have no business listening to music? I would anxiously await the results of that little experiment.
    Sorry you don't like my opinions, life's a b!tch, eh?

    Classical player only interested in the score...gee, I thought that was what it's all about, particularly in ensemble performances...unless the notation/direction states ad libitum or the like...Perhaps an excellent technician with no creative skills?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH
    ...But I find it easy to refrain from issuing such silly advice--especially on topics I have to admit my knowledge is actually sorely lacking on. Good grief.
    Is that due to an identity crisis or lack of self-assurance...perhaps you're just schizoid; you seem to have no problem telling me why I'm wrong...P.S. Lucy says the doctor is in...

    jimHJJ(...care for an UnCola?...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  15. #15
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Did I ever say the underlined?
    Not word for word, but yes, you have. We ALL have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Did I say this recording belongs on the list?
    It's certainly implied by your gushing review of it, but that was never my point. See below for a refresher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Did I say it was influential?
    Ditto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Did I ever say you have to like it?
    According to you, anyone that doesn't like it "has no soul" and "has no business listening to music." So I guess I'd BETTER like then, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Might the answer be definitive "no" to all the above?
    Nope. It's all in your implications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I don't have the time to diagram sentences or coach you in any sort of remedial reading exercises...Of all the things you might be villified for, disliking this recording (or anything else for that matter) is the least of them to be concerned about...
    Jesus, what a haughty little man.

    As if my grasp of language and ability to make a point were in question . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Some time back there was a 7UP ad that was running on the east coast...In it the tag line was " make 7UP yours!..." I'll allow you to disregard the word "make" and the number "7" at a convenient time and place of your choosing to decode my special response...

    jimHJJ(...was that direct enough for you?...)
    No, not really. Why didn't you just say "Up Yours" and spare me the lecture on 7UP's marketing history while trying gussy up what is essentially a juvenile insult? What a windbag.

    I stand by my original post that your broad insults to anyone that doesn't like Kinda Blue are unfounded and without merit. Your best retort thus far has been "Up Yours." Pretty sharp there, bub.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    Ignoring you isn't bad policy, except that the thread then screams out for someone to challenge the crap you put into it. Especially since you seem to fancy yrself as someone who 'gets it,' what with all the witty sig quotes. Yet...my point flew completely over yr head. You like Gregorian Chant & Bill Monroe...and KOB. Lou Reed, ng. So, it's okay to adopt a hipster pose because you like all these different things...but those who adopt the hipster pose that goes along with the arty pretentiousness of Lou Reed, that you had some harsh words for.

    Like similar words weren't spoken about the cats just a few years before. Oh, but you, you have the key to which hipsters have the correct taste, and which ones are a bunch of Manhattan-centric, black-clad nimrods.

    What, you think there's that large a gap between the cultural & societal behaviors & trends, in fashion & elsewhere, between the scene north of 125th St. in the 40s & 50s, and the East Village hipster gang a few years later? Or, for that matter, the folkies a few blocks to the west, who populated the scene Dylan emerged from? Sorry, hard bop was castigated as Warhol & Reed, et al would be a decade or so later. Some compare it to other modern art they don't like, Jackson Pollock, et al. The emperor has no clothes, or some such. Hell, even Louis Jordan proclaimed that he wanted to play music for people, not musicians, following in the footsteps of Cab Calloway, who had fired Dizzy Gillespie from his big band, because the manifestation of what Gillespie would help craft into bebop in Calloway's outfit prompted him to denounce what Dizzy was doing as 'Chinese music.'

    Meanwhile, the cats placed a high premium on who dressed more clean. KOB was an arty record that was built on a premise that some have found could be framed as involving pretense, especially given Evans' liner notes. This, we can agree, is great. What we will not agree on is the idea of telling people they have no soul because they don't like the rec, or that they have no business listening to music.

    Oh, but it's just an opinion. Of course. Well, thanks for devaluing the concept for us. The thing about opinions is not so much that they share in common with the anus that everyone has one, but that their worth can be measured, to a point, according to the level of knowledge possessed by the individual offering it, relative to how extreme the tone may be, among other factors.

    The argument about expressing the opinion makes sense, but only to a point, at which time you have to say, well, yr opinion may be worth commenting on, since you've laid it out here in this thread, but, ultimately, it's just not worth all that much.

    Actually, I think it's more interesting than anything else that you seem to know more about Lou Reed & the music he made which you dislike intensely, as opposed to jazz, where you nonetheless offer these proclamations to people based on yr announcement that non-fans simply have no business listening to music.

    I say we can learn more, far more, from those who DON'T like the record, provided they know something about the subject. From where I sit, here's a great rec. Yet there's a jazz aficionado who doesn't like it, and I'd like to know why, and he can point to recs he likes better, and why, and players whose skills he prefers, and he can articulate that, as well. Not to mention the old guard of music instructors for whom jazz was absolutely worthless.

    Just yr opinion? Oh, boy, let me tell you, I'm just the sort who would gladly pay money to see a debate where you would get to provide this opinion for a music instructor who chooses to find no worth in jazz. As wrong, and wrong-headed as they would be, they'd tear ya a new one.

    Which wouldn't matter, except you've done what you felt necessary to inform us that you are, shall we say, more than just a fan of music. But, hey, it's great when you think that pointing to dark subject matter you don't like on recs you don't like is then countered by considering an album to be 'near-perfect' that starts out with a title based on Miles' sneer, to be followed up with one based on a colorful parasite, with the one after that being, allegedly, a tune Miles stole from his piano player & refused to grant even a co-writing credit on. (There are some who have claimed they heard Miles admit that Evans' side of the story was actually true, even though he denies it completely in his autobio)


    >I'm a relative Jazz noob...Hampton, Harden, early Coltrane...some of the genre is not for the noob...If you can't dig this, don't bother...

    WHAT a load of crap. How elitist & uninformed. Jazz was around for decades prior to this rec, and all but one of the offshoots attributed solely to it had already sprouted by the time of this rec. So what you're saying is that if someone new to the stuff digs Ellington & Henderson, or Basie & Goodman, or Armstrong & Beiderbecke, or Hawkins & Young, or Parker & Tatum, or Monk & Mingus, but NOT this rec, they shouldn't bother with jazz?

    No rec is for EVERYBODY. The chances that someone wouldn't like this, yet love the older stuff, in this day & age, may be slim, but they are far from nil, in spite of what you believe. As fluid & accomplished as the playing of Adderley was, some people just don't dig the tone of an alto. Others might find it a major flaw that Miles hits a clam a minute or so into the record, and gnash their teeth at what Clifford Brown might've done with the material, or even Lee Morgan. Others could have problems with the structure of Blue In Green, or the relative lack thereof in Flamenco Sketches. Actually, I've seen & heard people complain about ALL of these things. I couldn't care less, because I believe the record transcends any & all of those issues. But, as you have so helpfully informed us, you feel that people who don't like the rec...well, it's been said enough times already. I'm almost tempted to see if some of my music instructors are still alive, to rebut such a thought. See, in spite of how much or little they may have known about jazz (in some cases little other than they didn't like it, because classical music was inherently a superior form, according to them), they were also not shy about deciding who exactly shouldn't be in the business of listening to music. I think they would've found you interesting...and I think you wouldn't have liked their opinions, either. However, I believe they had the capacity to back up their point of view with a bit more knowledge than you seem to have.

    But, hey, you know everything. Continue to shove this rec down people's throats, and congratulations for all the various reactions this sort of behavior may inspire. But for every person who didn't like the rec and decided jazz wasn't for them on the basis of yr insistence that this is THE jazz rec, assuming there has been even one, I declare you to be an enemy of music.

    As for the underlined text, kindly direct yr attention to the two words immediately preceding the two you underlined. And I was referring to classical players who have been so indoctrinated into only considering strictly structured, charted music, that they have chosen to view anything containing improvisation to not jibe with their hijacked sensibilities. The sort who might allow that Ellington is the only sort of jazz they can listen to. I'm getting the idea you've never encountered such a person.

    Lastly, if you're inferring that I don't know anything about music, or that there's something wrong with limiting the dispersal of advice on topics I admit to not knowing much about, all I can say is, wrong on both counts. And, once again, no surprise there.

    I don't like others.

  17. #17
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    I don't know -- I can picture some people loving The Birth of the Cool, but disliking/not "getting" Kinda Blue (thanks, Troy, going to have to use that from now on). So I'd have to disagree even with that overgeneralization. There is a large contingent of old school boppers who don't "get" this modern jazz (read: Miles Davis Quintet I and beyond). And they're not necessarily octogenarians.
    Eschew fascism.
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  18. #18
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    whooaa nellie

    lot a argument for a genre that sucked for over 40 years

    Why? bunch of hacks took over

    Miles Davis was sellin invisiable cloths

    Quincy Jones had his way with jazz and snuck out the window and left a lousy 20 bucks on the nightstand

    wouldbe torch carriers like Herbie Hancock, Bob James, George Benson, Dave Grusin and Grover Washington got fat on pablum and muzak

    jazz was better when it was strung out on drugs

    and I don't care if you are a musician or not, does not matter one whit
    master carpenters can build crappy houses, but at least they have a crappy house to show for thier efforts. You 'musicians' are messageboard commandos.

  19. #19
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    LOL@Heywood. You pretty much nailed it buddy. I'll take Q over Miles or Trane any day of the week.

    And MGH, if Weather Report isn't jazz, how can you say that GG Allin and Patty Smith are both punk? Why is one genre so narrow and one so wide, for you?

  20. #20
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    Okay, then, it's jazz fusion, how's that? I didn't create these labels, but while I agree that soundwise it's absurd to lump GG Allin & Patti Smith into the same subgenre, keep in mind that at one time GG's bass player in the Murder Junkies was Dee Dee Ramone, so sometimes these things end up making more sense than it appears on the surface.

    I would offer that there's a bigger difference, musically speaking, between Return To Forever & Paul Whiteman, than there is between Patti Smith & GG Allin.

    I don't like others.

  21. #21
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heywood Djahblomie
    lot a argument for a genre that sucked for over 40 years

    Why? bunch of hacks took over...jazz was better when it was strung out on drugs
    So, Jaco Pastorius, Pat Metheny, John Scofield...all hacks, eh? Hmm, I thought Jaco did drugs. Yes, I'm certain of it because he didn't suck. But wait, all those fuzak smoothies in the 80's put a season's crop of blow up their nose and they still sucked. Ah, that's because jazz has sucked for 40 years. Oh yeah, you nailed it. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    I would offer that there's a bigger difference, musically speaking, between Return To Forever & Paul Whiteman, than there is between Patti Smith & GG Allin.
    Actually, you might be surprised at the phases RTF went through. It started out rather cool & Latin flavored, moved into the heavy fusion phase w/ DiMeola then, in the late 70's, went into a....(wait for it)....big band phase. So, maybe Paul Whiteman isn't so far away after all. But I take your point, you're talking about Romantic Warrior, etc. Fine, but Weather Report was the jazziest of fusion bands. If you ban Shorter & Zawinul to the kid's table then you're going Wynton on me.

    This gets into the whole B's Brew thing but we'll save that for later. I think it's on the list.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    Did I ever tell you about Skunkbucket LeFunke?

    I don't like others.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    Did I ever tell you about Skunkbucket LeFunke?
    Dude, my uncle used to carve harmonicas for him out of pecan tree roots. He saved some of Skunk's spit in an ice cube, too. We used to play with it in the winter when we were kids before we had cable. My uncle said the Smithsonian wanted it but he was saving up to have it go up in the Space Shuttle but he died in a tragic accident involving panythose and a weed-eater.

  24. #24
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Again...

    ...for those who don't quite get it...

    Don't like my opinion, etc. etc. etc.?

    Don't like my attempt at painting a word picture on how this recording can transport a willing participant to a virtual, yet pleasantly "real", place and time...

    Well, I'll validate your TFB card for the month of October...do you think I really care?

    It ain't the streets, it ain't drug-induced angst, it ain't the 'hood, it ain't Pepperland...You don't need those banal lyrics, the lyricism of the music is good enough and that IMO makes it timeless...hop aboard and take a ride!

    The list is BS, not over-hyped or any other word that anyone chooses to erroneously attribute to me (and please don't include me in any collective)...most of the inclusions are likewise and I've limited my participation to recordings I am familiar with...and I don't recall saying anyone, anywhere has been influenced by any of the fifty...Luckily there are only a handful left of the remaining 30 or so...my highly-opinionated participation will be limited at best.

    Even the concept of the thread is faulty (sorry Swish). While it has been an entertaining diversion, how can one possibly argue that a specific recording didn't influence anything or anybody? It's similar to the more techie debates in other forums on this site...The best you can hope for is a null result and that's based on empirical evidence backed with specific pertinent test procedures within defined parameters...This RR section is purely what we refer to as subjective and anecdotal...read: meaningless.

    So, it can only devolve into a rah-rah session among glad-handers (which it seems from the outset I have single-handedly upset with regularity) or a simple statement of I do or don't like this record or, as I chose to do, provide a review that really isn't a review, more of a gut reaction based on purely empirical information...again read: meaningless...

    Why should anyone care what I think? Why would anyone be insulted? Why is it so important to denigrate my opinion with faulty logic and reasoning or comments re: the self-admitted paucity of my experience with the genre? I have my suspicions, along the lines of shoot the messenger but hey...it's all anecdotal hogwash anywho...

    jimHJJ(...and BTW what is a hipster? I'm a musician who loves music...my only criteria is that it must actually be music...IMNSHO most of the drivel contained in this list fails that litmus test...big time...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

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    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  25. #25
    Stone Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser

    Even the concept of the thread is faulty (sorry Swish). While it has been an entertaining diversion, how can one possibly argue that a specific recording didn't influence anything or anybody? It's similar to the more techie debates in other forums on this site...The best you can hope for is a null result and that's based on empirical evidence backed with specific pertinent test procedures within defined parameters...This RR section is purely what we refer to as subjective and anecdotal...read: meaningless.
    Huh? Please post something that makes some sense.




    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I'm a musician who loves music...my only criteria is that it must actually be music...MNSHO most of the drivel contained in this list fails that litmus test...big time...)
    In the language of YECH: bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! One thing about you: I do find you entertaining, even if you can't seem capable to make a point with something to back it up.
    And the world will turn to flowing pink vapor stew.

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