Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
Metallica, who like them or not, are the single-most influential band in the last 25 years(but should have quit 12 years ago), and who literally opened the door for groups like Nirvana to be accepted by the mainstream.
Can't say I really agree with this assertion.

Metallica was influential, yes. They were one of the first underground bands to break big into the mainstream, though the means they employed were somewhat despicable (watering down their style, making ballads, etc.). However, stylistically the Black Album wasn't all that groundbreaking. A little darker than the likes of Skid Row or Twisted Sister, but very much an orthodox hard rock record. Right down to their choice of producer (Bob Rock, who had a history of working with hair bands).

Nirvana, however, was really different from anything else in the mainstream circa '92 (Mudhoney and Soundgarden predated Nirvana, but they were quite underground at the time). Kurt had both the angry, disaffected punk attitude and "ragged-is-right" aesthetic, two things that really weren't prevalent in the realm of commercial radio before.

I can still recall to this day how shocking "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was when I was 8 years old. Kurt's howl, the pounding quiet/loud dynamic, the video with the cheerleaders and the "A" for Anarchy--everything. I didn't know jack about music at that age, but it didn't take a genius to recognize how different and powerful "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was. These days it seems so boring now due to radio saturation and a horde of watered-down copycats, but back then it was really something. "Enter Sandman," on the other hand, was a clear pandering to the mainstream compared to Metallica's earlier works.

Oh, and by the way, I don't consider Nirvana to be "grunge." They were much closer to that scene sonically than Alice In Chains or Pearl Jam, but "grunge" is early Soundgarden, Melvins, Mudhoney, Green River etc. Nirvana had a very distinct pop sensibility compared to those bands.

As far as record sales and all that other shite, I'll let you and Jay debate to your hearts' content.


Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
Were you referring to Cobain as 'the most talented mofo to ever come down the pike'? I assume you never saw that 'mofo' live. He can't sing or play a note in tune when playing live. The MTV unplugged show was the best performace the guy ever gave because he didn't have to scream and had plenty of backing musicians. I guess I just never bought into the whole grunge/MTV hype.

What exactly was Cobain talented at? Guitar playing? Satriani. Vai. Bonnamassa. Tabor. Lifeson. Mustaine. Howe. Rabin. McCready. Matheos. Adrian Smith. DeGarmo. Gilmour. Petrucci. You should check them out too.

Song writing? He's better than me, that's for sure. But I urge you to check out Neal Morse, Neil Peart, Jim Matheos, Steve Harris, DeGarmo/Tate, Chris Cornell, Portnoy/Petrucci, Becker/Fagan. These are the song writers I've always looked up to.
Personally, I have no problems with the words "Nirvana" and "talent" in the same sentence. Cobain was no guitar virtuoso, but what he lacked in guitar ability he made up for in songwriting. On a song-by-song basis he was up there with John Lennon, and that's with only 4 studio albums to his credit.

Hey, I love punk, and rock 'n' roll, and folk, and all those other forms where simplicity, catchy hooks etc. are an asset. I also dig prog and metal, where musicianship and pushing the envelope of what can be done with your instrument are seen as superlative. Good songwriting is good songwriting--simple music is not "low art," and complex music is not necessarily "high art" (contrary to what all the Yes and Rush fans might say). I don't have much taste for pointless wanking, even in prog, and I find most of the guitar shredders you mention above to be monotonous and overly showly (though I do like Mustaine, Smith, Gilmour, Tabor, and even the occassional dose of Petrucci). There's something to be said for 2 minutes of 3-chord, simple yet catchy songwriting and lyrics that express a lot versus 10 minutes of flashy, expertly played jamming that, while impressive from a technical standpoint, ultimately says nothing. Them's my 2 cents.