British Rock vs American Rock.

[Smokey]

How would you compare Rock music from both side of the ocean?

To me, British Rock [musically] have more complex and sophisticated sound, and lyrics/vocal is not as predominate as most N. America Rock music. American Rock have more Blues(ish) sound and vocally strong-which is not surprising since Rock does take its root from Mississippi Delta Blues

[mad rhetorik]

It's definitely not a cut 'n' dry distinction. After all, you had bands like Cream, The Rolling Stones, and Led Zeppelin who all hail from the UK yet sound like they're from The Delta. On the other hand, American bands like The Velvet Underground and Sonic Youth, along with more recent bands like Slint and Tortoise, have a very pronounced arty sensibility not openly associated with American roots music.

That being said, I think the British rock scene has always been just as indebted to American roots music as much as our own music is. Listen to all the first British Invasion artists (including The Beatles) who were doing a lot of Chuck Berry and R&B covers. There's a definite inspiration there. Maybe there was something of a distinction between British and American forms of rock early on, but it all started in the US of A. Since the early days, rock on both sides of the pond has diversified and branched out every which way, enough to make most national comparisons moot.

However, certain genres of music definitely have firm national origins. Prog rock is very much an European thing. So are black metal (Scandinavia), kraut rock (obviously Germany), and electronica/house/techno (predominantly UK). On the other hand, thrash metal and hardcore punk both have their origins in the United States, as do rap and hip-hop (to this day, I don't know of a single English rap artist that has acheived any form of credibility : P ).

[MindGoneHaywire]

I don't really have a big problem with what you're saying, but they do seem like vague generalizations. Rock music takes its root from a lot of places, Delta Blues being only one of many; and British rock was of course originally inspired by the American stuff, but considering the huge British blues boom of the mid- and late-60s I do think it's a bit of a reach to think of American rock as being 'bluesier.' If those generalizations work for you, that's fine. But they're way too loose to have that much of an effect on how I'd view rock music, personally.

[Dusty Chalk]

Prog rock is very much an European thing.

I didn't realize Rush were European. For that matter, I still don't.

(to this day, I don't know of a single English rap artist that has acheived any form of credibility : P ).

Isn't Tricky European? No, not technically rap, more hip-hop, but still...I'm sure with a little bit of judicious research you could come up with one. I, personally, am not up to it...just not motivated...

[Julian B]

On the other hand, thrash metal and hardcore punk both have their origins in the United States,

Most thrash bands cite Motorhead and Venom as the pioneers of that form of metal, both of whom are from the UK. As it's pretty much accepted that Black Sabbath were the first real heavy metal band to attain mass popularity, it's arguable that all metal owes a debt to the UK.

(to this day, I don't know of a single English rap artist that has acheived any form of credibility : P ).

True, there aren't many (only Roots Manuva and Mark B & Blade come to mind) but then the US has yet to product any Garage acts of any note.

On topic, although I'm from the UK, I prefer US rock almost exclusively. Kiss are the ultimate rock band IMO and of newer music, Jellyfish and Keith Caputo can't be touched by any UK rock bands.

[Jim Clark]

Isn't Tricky European? No, not technically rap, more hip-hop, but still...I'm sure with a little bit of judicious research you could come up with one. I, personally, am not up to it...just not motivated...

I'd put Tricky in to the Trip Hop genre if it were up to me, certainly not rap or hip hop. Oddly enough I read a little blurb of an article yesterday touting some guy named Dizee Rascal as the first English rapper who might be taken seriously here in the States. This is based on the fact that at one point ol Dizze was stabbed 5 times. Really, at this point what can you say?

And Smokey, for me there's simply too much cross pollenization and in-breeding for me to come up with too many generalizations concerning American vs. UK rock music. If I could come up with one that was at least partially defensible I'd say English rock, or more generally European rock has more of 'arty' aesthetic to it.

jc

[mad rhetorik]

I didn't realize Rush were European. For that matter, I still don't.

Isn't Tricky European? No, not technically rap, more hip-hop, but still...I'm sure with a little bit of judicious research you could come up with one. I, personally, am not up to it...just not motivated...

Most thrash bands cite Motorhead and Venom as the pioneers of that form of metal, both of whom are from the UK. As it's pretty much accepted that Black Sabbath were the first real heavy metal band to attain mass popularity, it's arguable that all metal owes a debt to the UK.

True, there aren't many (only Roots Manuva and Mark B & Blade come to mind) but then the US has yet to product any Garage acts of any note.

All valid points. I was generalizing to an extent in my original post (with the English rapper aside intended as a joke, hence the : P).

Tricky is from the UK, and he specializes mostly in trip-hop, sort of a mutation between hip-hop and electronica. I haven't heard a lot by him, but what I have heard is decent.

Rush (and Dream Theater) are both North American acts, but that doesn't mean that prog is not predominantly a European genre. It's not exclusively European, but I'd say about 70% of prog comes from the UK (Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Camel etc.), with another 10% or so coming from Continental Europe (Faust, Magma, Can, Kraftwerk being a few). I can't recall there being that many American prog bands. You could conceivably make an argument for Frank Zappa as "prog," though I think his massive genre-defying talents make pigeonholing him into any specific category a tough sell.

Black Sabbath and Deep Purple notwithstanding, I don't think metal was necessarily born in the UK. What about The Jimi Hendrix Experience? Blue Cheer? The MC5? The Stooges? These American bands, I'd argue, shaped metal to a large degree (and also punk for the latter two) and were on the scene for a few years before Black Sabbath's first LP and In Rock were released. Sure, they were the first two to become popular, but did they invent the genre? Questionable.

Re: thrash I forgot about Venom. They definitely had a huge impact on the thrash subgenre, and were from the UK (they were also a fairly direct influence on black metal). So were Motorhead, although they were musically more like other "New Wave Of British Metal" bands (Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Saxon, etc.) than actual "thrash." However, most of the prominent thrash bands were American (and primarily West Coast). Generalization? Yeah, but I don't deny that there are exceptions to the rule.

"No garage rock acts of note" from the U.S.? Whatcha talkin' 'bout Willis? You're going to dismiss The Ramones, The Sonics, The Monks, Green River, and the aforementioned Detroit bands among others? Maybe we haven't produced many notable "garage rock" acts of late, but there's a huge garage/indie rock heritage here to draw upon.

[MindGoneHaywire]

When he said 'garage' he was referring to a subgenre of dance music, not 'garage rock.' Don't know exactly how they came up with 'garage' for a strain of techno, or acid house or whatever the heck it is, considering that term had already been used for nearly 40 years now to describe a subgenre of rock music, but there it is.

[tullymars]

They cant say this in the UK
You wannan the bast,you got the best,the hottes band ithe world...KISS!

[Dusty Chalk]

I was generalizing to an extent in my original post (with the English rapper aside intended as a joke, hence the : P).

So you were expecting to get called on it, too, right? Well, if you had thought about it, you would have.

Yeah, the premise of this thread is based on an overgeneralization, hence my lack of interest to pursue it seriously. About the only thing I can say is, British singers have a tendency to sing with a British accent. (Even that's not true -- Shirley Manson, who has a heavy thick Scottish brogue, sings with what can only be called an American accent.)

[jack70]

I don't really see any qualitative difference in Amer vs UK, even though my collection has a much larger UK percentage of albums. That's probably due to the fact there were many more different bands releasing albums from the UK, at least when I was a kid. I'd also say that the same equality of Rock music belongs to any of 20 or 30 European countries, something that most listeners only have a vague handle on. Truth is, I bet I could play a dozen bands and most couldn't name which country they came from.

American Rock have more Blues(ish) sound and vocally strong-which is not surprising since Rock does take its root from Mississippi Delta Blues

As for the Blues influence, I agree with Jay... it was the early British R&R bands that grew up with a big blues influence: from American Blues artists on the radio and from playing live over there in the 40's & 50's. American bands just didn't hear that stuff, except for a few isolated places (like Chicago). So Blues became probably the most dominant style of most early British R&R bands... the Animals, Pretty Things, Stones, Kinks, Them, Yardbirds. (The Beatles were not Blues influenced that much... more American country & 50's R&R). Those early British blues bands were then followed by a more electric Blues form... Cream, Chicken Shack, Foghat, Savoy Brown, Led Zep, Rory Gallagher, Fleetwood Mac, John Mayall, etc, etc.

However, certain genres of music definitely have firm national origins. Prog rock is very much an European thing.

That may be true from the mid 70's on, but Prog roots are probably more from American & UK artists of the late 60's. But it REALLY flourished in the UK in the early 70's. It's true a lot of euro bands were influenced and by this and developed their own styles of prog stuff, but... just like the original question about "Rock music in general", I don't think prog was dominated by any one country or region. There were LOTS of Euro hard rock, beat, metal and Blues bands during the rise of the Euro-proggers... I got cabinets full of the stuff. Lots of US bands too, but they never got much notice, for the typical variety of reasons.

Black Sabbath and Deep Purple notwithstanding, I don't think metal was necessarily born in the UK. What about The Jimi Hendrix Experience?

Hendrix may have influenced certain aspects of metal (many of the guitarists), but he's a more a blues artist IMO. I do agree with you that early metal influences are equally present on both sides of the pond. I'd place the early Kinks hard rock (You Really Got Me, etc) as perhaps one of the biggest influences. A lot of the US punk movement that followed the British Invasion (Kinks) took that uptempo pre-metal attitude and style and moved the genre along on their own.

On topic, although I'm from the UK, I prefer US rock almost exclusively. Kiss are the ultimate rock band IMO and of newer music, Jellyfish and Keith Caputo can't be touched by any UK rock bands.

That's interesting that someone across the pond would see more stuff here. I probably felt the ssame way in the 60's & 70's, except in the reverse. I DO think that during the 90's especially, British music started growing into other "less-classic" froms of Rock... like Dance, electro & trip-hop, etc, so I'd agree there's more to pick from over HERE in recent years in the way of more classic R&R.

As for Kiss... it's hard to argue with anyone that grew up with em and loves em, so I won't. But they weren't especially innovative, original or even good IMO... but don't take it personally. I WILL give em an "A" for costumes and appearance...LOL. I'd put Jellyfish on my top-10 90's band list, which ironically is dominated by American artists (unlike my fave 60's or 70's lists). BTW, If you like Jellyfish, you might like the new self-titled Tiny Volcano album. It's of that style a little bit, with BBoys and others influences in there as well. Very nicely done though, and it's wears well... I've been playing it a lot in the last few months. (they're American too...LOL).

[Smokey]

Alot of good comments were made regarding British vs American rock.

I am not denying that we will have some cross over artists from both side of Atlantic, one influencing another. But if we take out that factor and look at artist that are indigenous to America or British, a more define border line influence will emerge.

If we look at artists from America such as Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylon, Elvis Presley, and ones from UK such as Roxy Music, Pink Floyd or David bowie, then the difference between two is not as blur.

But when it comes to trash Rock or Punk, the line is definitely blurred. America had its own underground scene (Ramones, New York Dolls), but so did British at the same time (Sex Pistols, The Clash).

[MindGoneHaywire]

If we look at artists from America such as Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylon, Elvis Presley, and ones from UK such as Roxy Music, Pink Floyd or David bowie, then the difference between two is not as blur.

These are still generalizations, Smokey, & examples can be brought out to refute all of them. Now, you can't seriously compare people like Lonnie Donegan to Elvis, but Elvis-influenced British guys who were trying to do the hillbilly/rock thing did exist. As for Dylan, they did have guys like Donovan. Again, no comparison in terms of quality, but there was something of an approximation. And later there came guys like Cat Stevens & even Van Morrison after Them. Springsteen I'll give you; he is pretty much & inarguably, quintessentially American. But so were the Beach Boys. I know there are British equivalents, whose work focused on the experience of growing up in Britain, but I can't name 'em right now.

But when it comes to trash Rock or Punk, the line is definitely blurred. America had its own underground scene (Ramones, New York Dolls), but so did British at the same time (Sex Pistols, The Clash).

Keep in mind that the NY Dolls were touring Great Britain in 1972, years before the Clash & the Sex Pistols, and the London punk scene per se didn't exist until the Ramones played at the Roundhouse in July of 1976 (only weeks after Strummer left the 101ers to join/form the Clash). People forget that at that point that none of the UK punk bands had any records out (the Damned was the first, but that wasn't until March '77). There was an American underground, a prominent one, going back to the days of R&B (or 'race' music), through garage punk like the Sonics, circa '65, the Velvets a year or two later, followed by the Stooges & MC5 (who of course led, stylistically, directly to the NY Dolls). There wasn't much along those lines going on in the UK during this period. Yeah, there was some garage rock in the mid 60s, but it generally lacked the spunk of the American bands, and once you get into the late 60s & early 70s, there isn't much beyond Bowie & Roxy Music (who worked, respectively, with the VU's Lou Reed & John Cale as they were establishing their solo careers). The X-factor in this is the Flamin' Groovies, who moved from the US to the UK around 1972; I don't think it's a coincidence that they were working with Dave Edmunds. The Brits picked up on punk & underground rock & ran with it very nicely; but there is no question that, as a form, it was going on here first.

[Julian B]

Sorry guys, just to clarify, when I said 'Garage', I did mean the UK sub-genre of R&B/House music that is pretty huge here and in parts of Europe. It also paved the way for the likes of Sean Paul to make it big... unfortunately

The reason they named it 'Garage'? Mainly as a joke reference to it not being 'House' music. The people most usually involved with UK Garage probably would never have heard of, let alone like, Garage rock music - which I agree is mainly a US phenomenon, as was Grunge.

As for Kiss... it's hard to argue with anyone that grew up with em and loves em, so I won't. But they weren't especially innovative, original or even good IMO... but don't take it personally. I WILL give em an "A" for costumes and appearance...

Sure, I know exactly what you mean. Kiss didn't do anything new, or particularly well, they just did it bigger and more well marketed than anyone else ever did or ever has done since (with the possible exception of Eminem). You're right though, I grew up with them and they are one band that seem to be able to produce a true soundtrack to a kid's life, maybe it's because their ethos is so positive and is all about the individual doing what they want and making the best of things for themselves. If only today's youth role models could do the same...

Thanks for the tip on Tiny Volcano also, I'll check them out. Have you heard of The Merrymakers? Their album 'Bubblegun' features Andy Sturmer producing, playing drums and co-writing a couple of tracks, not a bad album at all... and they're from Scandanavia.

As for other US rock/punk bands that made a massive impression across the World, I'd say The Misfits are one of the THE most influential bands after Kiss - both of whom could not be more American if they tried.

[jack70]

If we look at artists from America such as Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylon, Elvis Presley, and ones from UK such as Roxy Music, Pink Floyd or David bowie, then the difference between two is not as blur.

But you can't cherry pick artists like that to "prove a point". What about UK artists Roy Harper, Richard Thompson, Dire Straits, John Martyn, Cream, (and many many others)... they didn't make the impact of Dylan, Bruce or Elvis, but they played in that sandbox... in fact I prefer the UK artists there (for the most part). Certainly there are styles that seem to be stronger from either country, but it gets dicey when you try to make generalizations. I think both sides of the pond kinda cross-pollinated each other musically -- the 63-64 British Invasion influenced the US punk bands of 66; the Beatles & a few other influenced the psychedelic movement in both county's; the British progressives influenced the euro proggers, etc.

Jay is correct about the difference between the (EARLIER) NYDolls/glam movement, and the (LATER) punk movement. It's also true the about the UK vs US punk (77 era) movements... both very different, yet very good.

Sure, I know exactly what you mean. Kiss didn't do anything new, or particularly well, they just did it bigger and more well marketed than anyone else ever did or ever has done since (with the possible exception of Eminem). You're right though, I grew up with them and they are one band that seem to be able to produce a true soundtrack to a kid's life, maybe it's because their ethos is so positive and is all about the individual doing what they want and making the best of things for themselves. If only today's youth role models could do the same...

That's the most cogent description I've seen from someone of that era about Kiss... a very simple, honest and positive reflection/opinion. I sorta see them in a similar light as Grand Funk Railroad (at least before they got famous)... GFR weren't especially innovative, or lyrically deep, or anything either, but they played basic R&R and it was really appealing (for a LOT of people) for those same basic reasons. It all depends on what is out there when you're at a certain impressionable young age. For people (many RR'ers here, for example) who grew up with the British Invasion, you'll have a hard time convincing them the Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Zombies, etc weren't "the best" thing to happen in modern pop music. Ask someone who's a bit older, and you'll hear the same thing about Elvis. Neither is wrong, and it's the people who can expand their view and re-discover the historical backdrops of any era (not always an easy thing) who'll get a richer musical experience/journey.

Yeah, I've got some Merrymakers stuff... good stuff. Sturmer also produced last year's Puffy Aim Yumi album Nice... a kinda poppy album that's of 2 young Japanese teenyboppers... it's actually very good. Seemed a little lightweight after the first few cuts, but it grows on me. Certainly Sturmer is the reason... his fingerprints are all over it.

[Dave_G]

For whatever reason, most of the bands I like a lot are European or from the UK or England or whatever.

The style of music I like most is prog, hard rock, regular rock, then reggae, then pop.

Few american bands really do it for me to the levels of euro-rock.

I like the Doors, the Cars, Aerosmith, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Ted Nugent, Wall of Voodoo, Devo, Blackfoot, Styx, The Airplane, and others.

But the majority of my collection is european bands. Groups like UFO, Thin Lizzy, all those darn proggers, AC/DC, Split Enz, etc...

And I don't think UK bands are necessarily "better", they just seem to have a different "formula" that appeals to my ears.

I never really got heavy into the Beatles, The Dead, or Bob Dylan.

Now, also, some American bands are WAY up on my list like Kansas, but they are few.

Basically, I like all bands who rock but aren't too heavy on the fluff factor. Tom Petty, Billy Joel, Elton John, Foreigner, etc., are bands I "like" but only want to hear their stuff on a rare occasion.

Regards,

Dave

[Dusty Chalk]

But the majority of my collection is european bands. Groups like UFO, Thin Lizzy, all those darn proggers, AC/DC, Split Enz, etc...

Uh...AC/DC and Split Enz are Australian, which, although being on a different continent, is not the same as being European.

[Jim Clark]

Uh...AC/DC and Split Enz are Australian, which, although being on a different continent, is not the same as being European.

Well, they speak with an English accent. Sort of...Well they do!

jc

[Julian B]

That's the most cogent description I've seen from someone of that era about Kiss... a very simple, honest and positive reflection/opinion.

Thanks I try and keep a perspective with my feelings towards the music of Kiss. Maybe it's because I'm a Libra but although I love them, their music and just how much a part of my life they were/are, I'm still able to recognise their distinct limitations.

I'll still always honour my promise to myself as a kid though... I want 'World Without Heroes' played at my funeral.

Yeah, I've got some Merrymakers stuff... good stuff. Sturmer also produced last year's Puffy Aim Yumi album Nice... a kinda poppy album that's of 2 young Japanese teenyboppers... it's actually very good. Seemed a little lightweight after the first few cuts, but it grows on me. Certainly Sturmer is the reason... his fingerprints are all over it.

Andy Sturmer is a power pop genius. Puffy's 'Nice' is a breath of fresh air, so innocent and meaningless in many ways but somehow profound because of it (a little like Kiss/GFR in some ways - maybe that's the connection we're hearing and enjoying?). 'Tokyo Nights' and'Your Love Is A Drug' are just amazing pop songs, from ANY era or ANY country.

AC/DC aren't particularly Australian by the way, Bon Scott and both the Young brothers were all born in Scotland, UK.

[Dave_G]

I guess what I was saying that like the Euro bands, I also like bands a lot from other lands other that the states.

And I think the Enz are actually New Zelanders.

Dave

[Smokey]

Look like any type of comparison I am doing between British and American is end up on a dead end.

So would you all say that a [solid] comparison can not be made between two except may be European Rock being more "arty"?

[Jim Clark]

Look like any type of comparison I am doing between British and American is end up on a dead end.

So would you all say that a [solid] comparison can not be made between two except may be European Rock being more "arty"?

Well, that was a weak description but seemed the best way to get across what I was attempting to say. On the other hand, some of the examples you listed seem to fall in along those lines. Pink Floyd and most certainly Bowie and Roxy Music could conceivably be considered more dramatic or 'arty'. Of course lots of others might could be described similarly without any obvious American counterparts.

As I said, it was weak.

jc

[Julian B]

So would you all say that a [solid] comparison can not be made between two except may be European Rock being more "arty"?

I don't see it that way, if anything, I'd say a lot of Bristish rock is very working class, 'meat and potatoes' type music. Motorhead, Iron Maiden, The Who, Black Sabbath etc. are all very straight ahead. Maybe the likes of Deep Purple, Rainbow, ELO etc. have a more classical music/technical feel to them but it's still fairly basic stuff.

I think the differences are more in presentation. As I mentioned above, Kiss are based around music influences predominently from the Rolling Stones, The Beatles and The Who - but it's packaged in a look that is as far removed from those three bands as it's possible to be.

The look of bands such as Twisted Sister, WASP, Poison, Ratt, Motley Crue is also much more of an American rock image, yet a lot of their music is also based around the early UK rock bands styles as well as on the likes of Kiss, who'd already presented their take on the early UK rock sound.

UK rock bands traditionally display a substance over style attitude (which is not to say they're actually any better musically than US rock bands) whilst US rock bands tend to favour a balance of both or go all out in the style department.

This changed somewhat during the Grunge/90s American rock scene, where bands would almost religiously dispense with 'image' and concentrate on their music and lyrics - and in doing so, ironically, created a whole new image.

It's interesting that, coming full circle, the only really big new UK rock band is The Darkness - who combine the musical elements of meat and potatoes bands like AC/DC and Thin Lizzy with the flamboyance of Queen and a more 'glam' look.

From the US scene, the biggest rock bands are probably Marilyn Manson / Slipknot (the Kiss/glam/theatrical connection), The Strokes (the Grunge connection) and The White Stripes (the Blues/R&B/70s connection).

Nothing really changes huh?

[Dusty Chalk]

So would you all say that a [solid] comparison can not be made between two except may be European Rock being more "arty"?

No, I wouldn't even go that far.

DaveG -- yeah, they all talk funny, dagburn for'ners.

[Smokey]

UK rock bands traditionally display a substance over style attitude (which is not to say they're actually any better musically than US rock bands) whilst US rock bands tend to favour a balance of both or go all out in the style department.

This changed somewhat during the Grunge/90s American rock scene, where bands would almost religiously dispense with 'image' and concentrate on their music and lyrics - and in doing so, ironically, created a whole new image.

There is alot of truth to that, especially during late 80s. American bands you mentioned such as Winger, Motly Crue, Poison, Warrant, Zebra, Whitesnake, etc., were more about style than music. We used to call them "hair bands"

DuranDuran might be the only band that did both (Style and music) very well.