The Ten Most Hated Men In Rock

[kexodusc]

Personally, I have no problems with the words "Nirvana" and "talent" in the same sentence. Cobain was no guitar virtuoso, but what he lacked in guitar ability he made up for in songwriting. On a song-by-song basis he was up there with John Lennon, and that's with only 4 studio albums to his credit.

Hey, I love punk, and rock 'n' roll, and folk, and all those other forms where simplicity, catchy hooks etc. are an asset. I also dig prog and metal, where musicianship and pushing the envelope of what can be done with your instrument are seen as superlative. Good songwriting is good songwriting--simple music is not "low art," and complex music is not necessarily "high art" (contrary to what all the Yes and Rush fans might say). I don't have much taste for pointless wanking, even in prog, and I find most of the guitar shredders you mention above to be monotonous and overly showly (though I do like Mustaine, Smith, Gilmour, Tabor, and even the occassional dose of Petrucci). There's something to be said for 2 minutes of 3-chord, simple yet catchy songwriting and lyrics that express a lot versus 10 minutes of flashy, expertly played jamming that, while impressive from a technical standpoint, ultimately says nothing. Them's my 2 cents.

I couldn't agree with you more on most of what you said. I don't even deny Metallica intentionally made their music more accessible with the Black Album. But, when I read, and see the Nirvana boys thank Metallica for really openning the "underground" up, and think about it, I tend to agree with them. Cobain was a helluva song writer. No doubt. To this day Nirvana remains one of my favorite bands.

As for prog and musicianship, too many Prog fans are Prog-for-the-sake-of-Prog in my books.
I love Satrianni and Vai, but in the end these guys are guitar hero's not music icons...there's a difference.
I don't make the snobby disticntion between prog rock and 3-chord post-grunge alternative stuff as matter of upper class art or lower class art...To me it's more about moods...quite often I'm in the mood for some grand, theatrical stuff, or some large compositions.
Just as often I throw in some Pearl Jam or Rage Against the Machine, Pantera, Cheryl Crow, Allman Brothers, etc...it's all about moods, etc.
But you have to admit, a 12 minute Gov't Mule or Dream Theater song isn't going to be adopted by the 3 minute attention-span Radio or MTV anymore (was it ever?).
Somewhere along the line, the art got commercialized, and the listener got ripped off.

I just defend Dream Theater as a band who isn't about wanking. They have a style, sure but they are definitely about the song first, not 35 minutes of lame ass Yngwie Malmsteen guitar solos (though they could do that if they wanted too). They show off a bit, and if you don't like them fine, but listen to these guy's solo projects, where they do wank, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[kexodusc]

No, that's not what I said or what I meant. I believe I said somewhere else that if it hadn't been that, it would've been something else by somebody else. Of course, it would've developed slightly differently, or even somewhat differently. It happened to be Nirvana; it happened to be that song. To deflect & say it was something else is just plain wrong. Sure there were other factors; the song & its impact didn't exist in a vacuum; and there was already a burgeoning Seattle scene & bands from Metallica on up, PJ, AIC, Soundgarden, you name it. Faith No More. Stone Temple Pilots. They were all around. I know this. But I remember the impact that one song had. What I'm trying to say is that each one of these bands benefited in one way or another because people who either flat-out didn't like anything resembling this music, or had never heard anything about it that they liked, all of a sudden heard something in a piece of music very much like this other stuff where they heard something that they liked. It opened a door in a way that Metallica never did. Remember, Metallica's notoriety spread briskly through people trading mix cassette tapes. The large volume of records that they sold prior to the creation of the radio formats inspired by Teen Spirit is evidence that they had a sizable fan base; but since they had little in the way of exposure beyond what was then a very small slice of a fringe market, it was preaching to the converted in a sense. Nirvana didn't have millions of fans like Metallica did; most of the people who bought their record had never heard of them until they heard that song or saw the video.

But, again, if it hadn't been them, it would've been someone else, possibly Metallica, more likely PJ or Soundgarden. But it was them, and while the numbers don't even bear it out any more, the impact of that one song was immeasurable. That's why I called it a catalyst, as it was more dynamic than most of the output of any of these other bands. The marketplace was so starved for a makeover of the industry that it was going to happen one way or another. That's the form it took, that was the immediate reason, that was the catalyst.

Now this post I can agree 100% with...thanks for making your point of view clear. I don't think Metallica ever influenced a 2 or 3 year period of the music scene, pop-culture, fashion, etc as much as Nirvana..not as intense, as fast....but a different kind of influence.
I think they were the first radically different, "loud sound" that wasn't hair metal (which evolved from Zeppelin, AC/DC, Aerosmith etc sound of the 70's gradually, so it wasn't a shock) to achieve huge commercial success, and finally openned people's eyes that the mainstream would accept other sounds. But they didn't do it all by themselves either.

It's sad though, modern-rock music has become exactly what Cobain and crew predicted, and didn't want...a great big parody of itself.
We're still waiting for the next big thing...not sure what it's going to be, but I hope it comes soon.




Metallica owes alot to other groups too, however. We could probably trace this all back to Zeppelin and even urban blues if we want.

[DariusNYC]

Thanks for the great discussion, guys. Fun reading, and an example of why this site keeps me coming back.