News Flash: Flyers get screwed in Montreal.

[Swish]

Semantics. The Flyers consistently rank near the top of the league in PIM's, top 5 or better almost every year, with the odd year where they might fall in the middle. Consistency is the message here though, it reflects the philosophy and strategy of the organization.
Now I'll be the first to admit breaking the rules can be an effective part of the game ( I even defended Hartnell, Cote, and even Chris SImon here at ar.com) and I certainly lead my team in PIM's most years...but the merits of rule breaking is another discussion, and we've spent enough time discussing a comment that was intended as a friendly rib at you, not a scathing criticism of the team.

...and my whole point of this thread was to see how many rabid hockey fans would come out of the woodwork and give me a thorough roasting. It worked pretty well, dontcha think? I was really ticked at those calls though, especially the late penalty.

I was born and raised in Flyer country, so I'm a fan, good or bad. I do like hard-hitting hockey, although I never played more than pick-up stuff (just wasn't a popular participant sport when I was growing up), but I played the post in basketball and enjoyed the back-and-forth punishment that was part of the game. I was never a dirty player and don't condone it, but I stood my ground and got into my share of scrapes. All the widows have forgiven me by this time.

Swish

[ForeverAutumn]

you defended Chris Simon??

He didn't defend Chris Simon so much as he defended the punishment. Unless he's referring to a different thread. Hockey Talk - Should the league take a stance...

[Ex Lion Tamer]

The best 3 crowds I've been too are Calgary, Edmonton (those two tie, and are far beyond all others) and Minnesota. I went to a Habs game this year and we were asked to sit down be quiet by the guys behind us!!!.

I'm not just spewing my opinion, I'm quoting 1. Recent Hockey News poll of players voting Bell Centre as the best building/best crowd in the NHL. 2. Jim Hughson, who spends most of his time broadcasting Western games called the Bell Centre crowd the best in hockey.

Well I won't call ALL Habs fans bandwagoners, but they run their own out of town like nobody else. Roy, Samsonov, Brisebois, etc.

Roy ran himself out of town - when he told the team president in the middle of a game that he'd played his last game in Montreal. Samsonov? Please - Chicago ran him out of town pretty good, as did Edmonton - the guy stunk up the joint everywhere for the last couple of years. Brisebois - you might have a point there.

But look at the sad sack Leafs. Every year those fans really think they're just 1 player away from the Cup and they love them, every year, unconditionally...everyone knows they have no chance of winning - except Leafs fans. They won't accept it. That's passion, in the positive sense, as much as I hate them (and at times pity them).

I'll take the results that the Habs fans additude seems to produce rather than The Leafs. Look the Habs have mostly been out of the playoffs more than in since for the last 15 years or so, and I don't see interest in hockey waning, or any empty seats at the Bell Centre. And this bull about Toronto fans loving their team and players unconditionally is just that - bull. Andrew Raycroft - sure he never got criticized, Larry Murphy - a hall of famer - was run out of town. Oh, John Ferguson, Jr. he wasn't crucified in the papers - nor Mats or McKay or Kubina for not waving their no trade - nope no criticism there.

I'll be honest too - being razzed daily by Habs fans the last month has soured me on them so I'm venting a bit here but I would think Montreal should always be the centre of the hockey universe, not Toronto - at least Montreal has the history and dignity to back it up.

See, now you're making sense,

The fans only rally when the going's good though. That's only conditional support.

Yeah, unlike say Washington where the arena is empty for 90 percent of the year and fills up in the playoffs...maybe. Please show me these towns where fans rally when their team is in 12th place Woohoo, we're #12, we're #12.

[kexodusc]

Yeah, unlike say Washington where the arena is empty for 90 percent of the year and fills up in the playoffs...maybe. Please show me these towns where fans rally when their team is in 12th place Woohoo, we're #12, we're #12.

I mentioned the Leafs....

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Just what do you mean the Flyers need to generate more offense? They out-shot Montreal in the game, so they were right there but for a few breaks, and if not for the brutal week they've had, probably would have been a bit sharper.

I think the shots ended up even. Notwithstanding that fact, Biron by far had the tougher saves to make - not to mention two posts, a penalty shot, at least 2 partial breakaways. I can't think of any really tough save that Price had to make. Where was Richard's, where was Briere, where was Hartnell, even the power play was pretty anemic - even if they did score on a lucky bounce on a weak shot from the point that Price should have held on to. Overall, I didn't see much offense from The Flyers at all.

Having said that it was a MUCH tougher game than it should have been for The Habs, given the Flyers schedule. And yes, I do give the Flyers a ton of credit for the season they had, and most of it without Gagne - well done.

Speed is an issue, I will agree, but hey, like I told you, I don't expect the Flyers to win this series, I just thought they should have won this game and it would have made things very interesting.

Point well taken.

Look - looking at Montreal's season from a non-partisan perspective - they are probably not as good, long term as this season's results seem to indicate. They went the season without a major injury, they got a career year from a motivated Kovalev - next year, who knows? They found a franchise goaltender, and seem to be gelling as a group beyond their talent level. I expect them to beat the Flyers - because they match-up well, but next round I expect they'll lose.

But they do have what I think is the most underrated defence corp in the east -with more promising defencemen on the way; (Ryan McDonough, Emelin, Valentenko, David Fisher), they have that franchise goaltender for many a year to come, the Kostitsyn sisters (as somenopne called them) are actually pretty damn good, and Plekanec may be the most underrated centre in the East. So the future looks brighter than the recent past at least.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I mentioned the Leafs....

So what - Leaf fans are in the streets, singing, honking horns, attaching flags to cars for finishing 12th? What have leaf fans done that earns them this rep as such unconditional fans? Following a loser? So what, every city in Canada does or has done that. So Montreal fans criticize their a bit more, so what? They still vote with their wallets.

[kexodusc]

So what - Leaf fans are in the streets, singing, honking horns, attaching flags to cars for finishing 12th? What have leaf fans done that earns them this rep as such unconditional fans? Following a loser? So what, every city in Canada does or has done that. So Montreal fans criticize their a bit more, so what? They still vote with their wallets.

That's the point unconditional support is...UNCONDITIONAL! Real fans shouldn't need their team to do anything to "earn" support. Do you quit being a fan when they're bad?

Voting with the wallet in Canada for hockey doesn't mean as much as it might in other sports, say...baseball. Canada's a different animal when it comes to hockey, and city like Montreal that has something like 3.5 million people in the area should never be anything less than sold forever, regardless of team success. Small cities like Edmonton and Ottawa sell out more often than not on less than 1/3 the population of that city. In a far larger center, it's just simple math, 3 times the population, we'd expect 3 times the fanbase, even in bad years. Far beyond the arena capacity. There's tons of per capita support across the country. There's certain big percentage of people in Canada that are big time hockey fans. Some cities are just lucky enough to be bigger than others, and thus benefit from having more core fans buying tickets all the time. So, the fact the Bell Centre is sold out really doesn't speak to the level of support the fans give them.

I'm not knocking the guys who've had season tickets 30 years. I'm knocking the "all of a suddent I'm a Habs fan again" fans. Having spent considerable time in different US and Canadian hockey markets, I can assure you Canada has a lot more of these kind of fans. Loyal to a team only when they're winning. For whatever reason, I've experienced that more with Habs fans than any other team.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

That's the point unconditional support is...UNCONDITIONAL! Real fans shouldn't need their team to do anything to "earn" support. Do you quit being a fan when they're bad?

Voting with the wallet in Canada for hockey doesn't mean as much as it might in other sports, say...baseball. Canada's a different animal when it comes to hockey, and city like Montreal that has something like 3.5 million people in the area should never be anything less than sold forever, regardless of team success. Small cities like Edmonton and Ottawa sell out more often than not on less than 1/3 the population of that city. In a far larger center, it's just simple math, 3 times the population, we'd expect 3 times the fanbase, even in bad years. Far beyond the arena capacity. There's tons of per capita support across the country. There's certain big percentage of people in Canada that are big time hockey fans. Some cities are just lucky enough to be bigger than others, and thus benefit from having more core fans buying tickets all the time. So, the fact the Bell Centre is sold out really doesn't speak to the level of support the fans give them.

I'm not knocking the guys who've had season tickets 30 years. I'm knocking the "all of a suddent I'm a Habs fan again" fans. Having spent considerable time in different US and Canadian hockey markets, I can assure you Canada has a lot more of these kind of fans. Loyal to a team only when they're winning. For whatever reason, I've experienced that more with Habs fans than any other team.

I guess I don't really understand your point because its a concept that's foreign to me. Are true fans alowed to boo their team? Are they alowed to call some players over-paid bums if their playing bad? At what point does a fan become a bandwagon fan?

I'm a Habs fan. I was when I was 10, I was when I moved to Winnipeg, I was when I moved to Ottawa, and when I moved back to montreal. I was when they were winning cups and I was when they were missing the playoffs. If they miss the playoffs for 20 straight years - I'll styill be a fan in year 21. And if in year 21 they win the Stanley Cup I will probably be somewhat more enthusiastic than I was in the previous 20 years. I always was and always will be. Am I more enthusiastic today than I was last year? Yes. Am I talking more about the team? Yes. Are their some people around town who don't normally follow hockey who seem to be showing an interest. Yes. This is a natural occurence isn't it? Would this same thing not happen in Toronto.

I;m also a Minnesota Vikings Fan. Always have been, always will be. Never cheered for any other NFL team, never will. If the Vikes are a dominant team next year, do you think I'll show more interest in their week 16 game than I did last year - Yes I will? Does this make me a bandwagon fan?

Do you think the last decade hasn't seen a resurgensce in the enthusiasm of fans in Boston for the Patriots and the Red Sox? And even turned some people into fans of those teams? I think so.

I lived in Ottawa for the past 15 years and believe me Ottawa is different this year than it was last year...are they all bandwagon fans because you don't see as many car flags as you did last year? Don't be rediculous.

Are you a Leaf fan Kexodusc? What is it really, that makes a leaf fan better than a Habs fan? Because that's what you're saying. I really do want to understand. Let's take last year, both teams missed the playoffs. How did this unconditional devotion to their team manifest itself in Toronto differently than in Montreal? Please explainf it to me.

What I think is that this is just a cop out that fans of unsuccessful teams use to dump on successful teams - because ultimately they can't criticize the team so they take cheap shots at their fans, because they are an easy target. Fans are fans. They all ***** and complain when their team sucks - and the interest in the team is greater, when the team is doing well. That's sports.

Sorry to vent like this, but someone has stick-up for Montreal fans against all these hollier-than-thou fans from TO.

We're Toronto fans so we're better...BULL****E!

[kexodusc]

I guess I don't really understand your point because its a concept that's foreign to me. Are true fans alowed to boo their team? Are they alowed to call some players over-paid bums if their playing bad? At what point does a fan become a bandwagon fan?

Booing is fine, to an extent when it's because they want the team to be better, it shows they care - it's when they stop caring altogether and disappear. Lion Tamer, I've got coworkers wearing Habs ties, and the likes razzing me about the Habs this year that I had no idea were even hockey fans. In the past they've cowered away, like they were embarrassed to admit they were Montreal fans. These are the bandwagon types. Quick to criticize (excessively) and then jump off the wagon so to speak when the team struggles. They stop supporting, deny their affection for the team (or hide it, whatever), then they win one playoff series and profess their love to any who will listen. Not all Habs fans are like this. I just experience this phenomenon more with Habs fans than any other team by a huge margin. Maybe the Habs just appeal to casual fans. I don't know.

Ha ha ha ha. No, I am NOT a Leafs fan. Never will be. I'm a Senators fan (loud and proud, no matter how much they suck) and you hit the nail on the head, I went to 7 games at Scotiabank Place this year, each visit the mood was more gloomy than the previous. But the building still sold out because the market is strong enough to endure...still, not as many flags, jerseys, etc. Sens fans fell off the bandwagon this year. Big time. But the reality is, the Sens have been a struggle their entire existence in most aspects, and the fans they have are used to disappointment. So when the going is bad, well, it's not like we've lost most of our fan base, just like thousands didn't come crawling out of the woods for the cup run last year.
It seems to come and go in bigger numbers for the Canadiens. And these part-time fans are usually the mouthiest and most annoying to talk to.

Hope that clears things up. I have nothing against the Habs in general, and respect any team's hard core supporters (even the Leafs).

[Swish]

I'm a Habs fan. I was when I was 10, I was when I moved to Winnipeg, I was when I moved to Ottawa, and when I moved back to montreal. I was when they were winning cups and I was when they were missing the playoffs. If they miss the playoffs for 20 straight years - I'll styill be a fan in year 21. And if in year 21 they win the Stanley Cup I will probably be somewhat more enthusiastic than I was in the previous 20 years. I always was and always will be. Am I more enthusiastic today than I was last year? Yes. Am I talking more about the team? Yes. Are their some people around town who don't normally follow hockey who seem to be showing an interest. Yes. This is a natural occurence isn't it? Would this same thing not happen in Toronto.

...after that great 7th game win over the Bruins. Nice.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

Swish

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Booing is fine, to an extent when it's because they want the team to be better, it shows they care - it's when they stop caring altogether and disappear. Lion Tamer, I've got coworkers wearing Habs ties, and the likes razzing me about the Habs this year that I had no idea were even hockey fans. In the past they've cowered away, like they were embarrassed to admit they were Montreal fans. These are the bandwagon types. Quick to criticize (excessively) and then jump off the wagon so to speak when the team struggles. They stop supporting, deny their affection for the team (or hide it, whatever), then they win one playoff series and profess their love to any who will listen. Not all Habs fans are like this. I just experience this phenomenon more with Habs fans than any other team by a huge margin. Maybe the Habs just appeal to casual fans. I don't know.

Ha ha ha ha. No, I am NOT a Leafs fan. Never will be. I'm a Senators fan (loud and proud, no matter how much they suck) and you hit the nail on the head, I went to 7 games at Scotiabank Place this year, each visit the mood was more gloomy than the previous. But the building still sold out because the market is strong enough to endure...still, not as many flags, jerseys, etc. Sens fans fell off the bandwagon this year. Big time. But the reality is, the Sens have been a struggle their entire existence in most aspects, and the fans they have are used to disappointment. So when the going is bad, well, it's not like we've lost most of our fan base, just like thousands didn't come crawling out of the woods for the cup run last year.
It seems to come and go in bigger numbers for the Canadiens. And these part-time fans are usually the mouthiest and most annoying to talk to.

Hope that clears things up. I have nothing against the Habs in general, and respect any team's hard core supporters (even the Leafs).

The fact that you live in Ottawa, you do linve in Ottawa right? makes thinghs clear for me. I lived in Ottawa (Aylmer, actually) since '89 - moved back to Montreal (my home town) last summer. I heard this a lot from Ottawa fans - "Oh you Habs fans are all bandwaggoners". I think the dynamic in Ottawa is different because every Sens fans is a converted something fan, simply because of the age of the franchise. So I would think it's easy for a converted Sens fan to temporarily un-convert back to their first love when the going gets good. Ignore these people! To me you are born a fan of a certain team and nothing would make you change back and forth.

[kexodusc]

The fact that you live in Ottawa, you do linve in Ottawa right? makes thinghs clear for me. I lived in Ottawa (Aylmer, actually) since '89 - moved back to Montreal (my home town) last summer. I heard this a lot from Ottawa fans - "Oh you Habs fans are all bandwaggoners". I think the dynamic in Ottawa is different because every Sens fans is a converted something fan, simply because of the age of the franchise. So I would think it's easy for a converted Sens fan to temporarily un-convert back to their first love when the going gets good. Ignore these people! To me you are born a fan of a certain team and nothing would make you change back and forth.

Don't live in Ottawa, I live in NB now, though I have family in Nepean (Ottawa) I visit and a few times a year I make it to Ottawa for work. Actually, there's finally a whole generation of Senators fans who aren't converted just old enough to buy beer! We're multiplying.
Work has tickets at the Bell Centre and Scotiabank Place (but not the Air Canada Centre because they're too much $$$). I generally like the atmosphere at the Bell Centre better, but it's not a huge difference anymore, Montreal has the Ole Ole Ole thing when they're winning...otherwise they're fairly similar.

The folk I'm talking about aren't fans of any other team, in fact you might not know they were a fan of any team during the season, except when they become outrageously patriotic when the Habs are winning. Every team has its bandwagoners, but for some reason Montreal has more.

[bobsticks]

I appreciate the fact that I can take a day off and the rest of you will step to the plate and smack Swish around.

[Swish]

I appreciate the fact that I can take a day off and the rest of you will step to the plate and smack Swish around.

They did a good job though, didn't they?

Swishdaddy

[kexodusc]

They did a good job though, didn't they?

Swishdaddy

I'm just glad I can use this forum as proof to my Canadian friends that contrary to popular belief, there are knowledgeable hockey fans south of Michigan.

[Swish]

I'm just glad I can use this forum as proof to my Canadian friends that contrary to popular belief, there are knowledgeable hockey fans south of Michigan.

I'm not exactly a student of the game, but I certainly know more than the average sports fan, at least I think I do. I don't have time to follow all the players and stats, but I know the rules and love to watch. I recall a study that indicated hockey requires more skill than any other sport, and I suppose it does since you're on skates and wielding a stick with people trying to take your head off.

I never had the chance to play organized hockey because it just wasn't very popular when I was a kid, coupled with a lack of facilities nearby, and I mean hockey facilities Bobsticks, before you jump on that comment.

That was fun though, wasn't it?

Swishdaddy

[Swish]

the NBA...its FANtastic Go Pistons

Did you ever think they would paste your beloved Pistons like that, especially after losing to them so badly in the second game?

I'm not a big NBA fan, but I like the way Mo has them playing, and it's a team effort with mostly younger players. They never looked this inspired when Iverson was there.

I don't think they'll make it past the second round and the East belongs to the Celtics this year, or so it would appear, but taking the Pistons out would be huge.

Go Sixers!

Swish

[bobsticks]

Looks like yer boys showed up to play and the skipped practice let some of those characters rest up. They almost looked like a disciplined professional sports team (except for Dowd's dumbass highsticking) but we all know the truth. I love it when the goalies get chippy, look at Mar-tay