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  1. #1
    nightflier
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    Question about comfort

    I have had a few headphones over the years, until I finally settled on the Grado SR325i. I am using a grado RA-1 amp (battery powered) and while the sound is the best of the sub-$400 lot, the problem is that they are a pain (literally) to wear for anything more than a couple of LP's. So I've decided to move on. I'm looking for headphones that are light on the ears (especially for those of us who wear glasses), have a lively sound (not too dark), and excellent bass response. I picked the Grados initially because they had very good 18-24KHz. range and a lively presence. My budget is about $500, but I am willing to buy used as well.

    I've been considering the Beyerdynamic DT880s and the AKG K701s, but I'm open to other models. What I need to know, since there is no one place where I can try these on, is if these are comfortable for long listening sessions.

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    Have you tried the Sennheiser HD600 or 650? They fit all the way over your ear and very comfortable. I love the sound of the Senn's and thought they killed the Grado but those who love Grado feel the opposite. The HD600's I have do very good bass but it's a tight more precise bass where I thought the Grado was extremely exaggerated in the low end. I also find the HD600's far exceeded Grado in air and size of sound stage perception. I drive my HD600's with the Musical Fidelity X-can. I also have a pair of HD580's for the badroom I drive with an Onkyo receiver and I find the Sennheiser characteristics present here as well, just not as much.

    Unfortunately not many places locally carry high end cans. So my only experience has been with AKG, Senn & Grado.

  3. #3
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    I like velour the best for long-term listening (Beyer, Senn). I spend hours a day with a pair of Beyers on my head. I'd go with the DT880s -- that'd be a very good choice in the <US$500 camp. In fact, that'd be my choice in the <US$500 camp anyway, comfort or otherwise.
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  4. #4
    nightflier
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    Mr. Peabody,

    I auditioned the Senns, and I was a huge fan for years before I heard the Grados. True the sound is different, but most of my gear is a bit on the warm side and so the Senns went too far. The Grados did a great job evening things out for me and for some reason I like warm speakers, but brighter phones. Anyhow, the soundstage with the Grados is a bit smaller, I agree, but it makes me feel like I am closer to the stage. It's more immediate, I guess. With large orchestral works it's like I'm sitting front-row center of the stage with the players, perhaps not as realistic, but definitely awe-inspiring - sort of like a good SACD & speakers setup works. Now I've read that the AKGs are a little leaner on the bass than the Senns, but how did you compare the mids & highs on both these phones?

    By the way, you are right that they are comfortable, but the large over-the-ear size pushes my glasses against my temples which gets bothersome on long listening sessions. Not that the Grados are an improvement in that department, but at the time I was so focussed on just the sound that I completely forgot about the comfort factor.

    Dusty,

    I've never heard the Beyerdynamics, but I have read an awful lot of positive reviews. I have also heard other AKGs, although not the 701. For some reason I can't find any online sources comparing these phones. While they differ in price quite a bit, they do seem to be their top phones in the still sensibly priced range. Presuming that they are equally comfortable, how would you compare the sound on these?

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    The highest in the AKG line I've heard has been the K-240. So I wouldn't want to comment on some costing in the hundreds. I see AKG on TV sometimes in studio shots. It looked like that's what Howard Stern used to wear. The K-240's lean more toward the Grado sound with a flatter response in my opinion.

    www.amusicdirect.com will allow a 30 day trial/return and they carry several brands, I know AKG, Grado, Senn & Stax. I'm not sure about Beyer, you'd have to take a look.

    Peter, how would you describe the Beyer sound? Spearitsound.com which carries many high end audio brands carry Beyer and I've often wondered what they are like. If you email Jack there, NF, he could tell you about the AKG, they carry those as well. Their return policy is very long though.

    NF, for your glasses have you tried to slide something tubular over the ear pieces while listening to cans? It would seem the tube would hold the pressure off your glasses frame.

  6. #6
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    You know how Grados are forward, and Senns are laid back? Alright, those were easy to characterize.

    Beyers and AKGs and Audio Technicas are a little harder to characterize, because they're in between. They're all pretty straightforward -- not too forward, not too laid back.

    The Beyers are probably a little closer to the Senns than the Grados, but I wouldn't call them "laid back". They're just sort of "there". They have this really pleasing straightforward balanced tonal spread with nice extension (I'm specifically talking about the DT880's here). That's what I like about both them and AKGs (like the K240...M? I think...maybe the S...I forget...).

    I usually listen to the DT770's, which are even more laid back than the DT880's, and not as neutrally balanced in the frequency spectrum -- they are definitely basshead headphones -- but they also go lower than most any other headphone. Although I've been listening to my DT831 lately, and that's pretty close to the DT880 (sort of a poor man's DT880), IIRC.

    As to K701 vs. DT880 -- hard to say, I currently own neither. I had a chance to A/B the two (actually A/B/C those two and a pair of rewired HD650's, all balanced) on a really high end amp, and they ended up sounding very similar, tonal-balance wise. The difference was in their ... I'm not sure, it almost sounded like phase issues -- the DT880 just cleaned up the other two in this area. It just had a cleanliness to the sound to it that the other two didn't even come close to. (The amp in question was Headroom's Max Balanced with the new diamond buffers -- the best solid-state headphone amp I've heard, and one of the best headphone amps I've heard of any topology. To use bartender's terms: "top shelf".) There was also a slight "weight" that was missing in the AKG, though I still like it more than most of my friends do...it was a little "drier" than the Beyer (but not HP1000 dry, which is dry like a martini dry).

    Let's put it this way -- I'm in no rush to get the AKG K701 -- I will probably get one some day, but the DT880 is a little more imminent.

    Gee, sure typed a lot, hope I said something worthwhile in all of there. Feel free to ask more questions to drive my answers in a specific direction...
    Eschew fascism.
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  7. #7
    nightflier
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    Dusty,

    - How do the Beyerdynamics compare to the Grado SR325i (since they are in the same price range)?

    - How would you characterize the comfort of the Beyerdynamics? What about for those of us who wear glasses?

  8. #8
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    - How do the Beyerdynamics compare to the Grado SR325i (since they are in the same price range)?
    I don't know (I'm not a big Grado fan).
    - How would you characterize the comfort of the Beyerdynamics? What about for those of us who wear glasses?
    Yeah, I forgot about glasses (I haven't started wearing mine until a year or two ago [meaning: I forget to think about wearing glasses when I talk about headphone comfort]). Beyers go around the ears, so without glasses, they don't get much more comfortable than that. They press just the right amount on the head -- enough to keep them on the head and properly sealed, but not enough to feel pressure.

    With glasses, well I am nearsighted, so I don't usually have to deal with this either, but for your sake, I'm wearing glasses right now. It's not too bad. I have extremely thin glasses, but if they were any thicker, I think they would push against each other (the pad inward on the glasses, and the glasses outward on the pad), but really, they're not too bad.

    I suspect with glasses the Grados might be a better way to go, though, as it won't affect the seal at all. There might be a little bit of pinching type pressure (glasses/ear/grado), but short of in-ear monitors, I don't see how you're going to get around that.
    Eschew fascism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
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    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  9. #9
    nightflier
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    Dusty, believe or not, I'm actually considering Lasek because of this. Of course, that would make for a very expensive headphone experience....

    Well, there would be other benefits too, I suppose. I wonder if they have a simple 30 min. outpatient surgery for restoring 16KHz & up hearing, too.

  10. #10
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Dusty, believe or not, I'm actually considering Lasek because of this. Of course, that would make for a very expensive headphone experience....
    I do believe that, short of the Orpheus or the R10, that would be a new record for most expensive headphones ever.
    Well, there would be other benefits too, I suppose. I wonder if they have a simple 30 min. outpatient surgery for restoring 16KHz & up hearing, too.
    Some forms of hearing loss are treatable. I believe if you were a former tank driver, you're screwed, but if it's anything else (non loud noises-caused hearing loss), see your doctor for a more informed decision.
    Last edited by Dusty Chalk; 09-26-2006 at 02:13 PM.
    Eschew fascism.
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    you guys are crackheads.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Dusty, believe or not, I'm actually considering Lasek because of this. Of course, that would make for a very expensive headphone experience....

    Well, there would be other benefits too, I suppose. I wonder if they have a simple 30 min. outpatient surgery for restoring 16KHz & up hearing, too.
    Hi Nightflier,you can get the Senn HD 650 at J&R music world for $299.I wear glasses also and it's not a problem even with extended periods of use.

  12. #12
    nightflier
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    Fergy,

    That price is not listed on the J&R website, but if that is correct, that puts it right at the same price point as the Beyerdynamic DT880, the Ultrasone PROline650 and the AKG K601 (and the Grado SR325i that I am replacing).

    Of these four which one is the best buy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Fergy,

    That price is not listed on the J&R website, but if that is correct, that puts it right at the same price point as the Beyerdynamic DT880, the Ultrasone PROline650 and the AKG K601 (and the Grado SR325i that I am replacing).

    Of these four which one is the best buy?
    My choice would be the Senn HD 650.Call them directly and tell them.I got mine from them about 6 months ago for that price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    My choice would be the Senn HD 650.Call them directly and tell them.I got mine from them about 6 months ago for that price.
    Me again,I just checked their web site.Select e-mail me better price and it will say $299.99.Also their out of stock at the moment.

  15. #15
    nightflier
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    Beyer, Ultrasone, AKG, or Senns?

    Any one else have any recommendations between these?

    - Beyerdynamic DT880,
    - Ultrasone PROline650
    - AKG K601
    - Sennheiser HD650

    They are all in the under $300 range and are more comfortable than the Grado SR321i which they will be replacing.

  16. #16
    nightflier
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    Anyone?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Anyone?
    This is the ghost of fergymunster calling,Get the Sennheiser.

  18. #18
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    I should switch my moniker back to Studly Kach and say, "Go for the Beyer!", but you'd just know it was me again.

    Anyway, to reiterate my "vote" -- go for the Beyer.
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
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    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  19. #19
    nightflier
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    Shootout: DT880 vs. HD650 vs. SR325i

    Well it looks like there are several used phones available online. I think I can get both the Beyers and the Senns for under $200 used. Should be interesting. I can't wait.

    P.S. Is Sennheiser about to release an upgrade to the HD650? Everyone seems to be blowing these out at under $300 (new). Considering what they were when they were newly released, it looks like there's something brewing.

    One more thing: the Grado headphone amp won't cut it with these headphones. Any recommendations in the $200-ish price range, used; or is that just too low for a decent amp?

  20. #20
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    You used to be able to get a Xiang Sheng for under US$200 on eBay, but the one seller I'm familiar with seems to have stopped selling. I would start by looking at that. It's more than decent, it's delicious.

    The Radii/Moretto HAP-03 was also pretty popular for around that price point.

    Yes, I've heard rumours that Senn is about to come out with HD-700, but don't quote me on that.
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    you guys are crackheads.
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    The HD650's seem like they haven't been out that long to already have an upgrade. I still see HD600's in the pipeline, is that still a current model? I don't think that's a good move for marketing if they did come out with a new model already, it's also not good that there are blow out prices every where on the internet. That's the kind of thing that keeps them out of local stores. But some of these blow out prices on electronics are "gray market" and factories won't honor the warranty.

  22. #22
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Nope, HD600 might still be in stock, but it's discontinued as far as Sennheiser is concerned.

    It's nothing to be concerned about -- I think it's more that they're cashing in on upgradeitis. The differences aren't significant, they're more along the lines of diminishing returns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Well it looks like there are several used phones available online. I think I can get both the Beyers and the Senns for under $200 used. Should be interesting. I can't wait.

    P.S. Is Sennheiser about to release an upgrade to the HD650? Everyone seems to be blowing these out at under $300 (new). Considering what they were when they were newly released, it looks like there's something brewing.

    One more thing: the Grado headphone amp won't cut it with these headphones. Any recommendations in the $200-ish price range, used; or is that just too low for a decent amp?
    It's funny Nightflier,I thought the same thing about the Senn 650 and that was 7 months ago and they still havn't released a newer version.It might be the new AKG-701 but not sure

  24. #24
    nightflier
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    OK, on tap I have:

    - Beyerdynamic DT880 for around $200 online
    - AKG K701's for around $350 online
    - Ultrasone HFI-700/2200 for around $250/300 online
    - Sennheiser HD650 for around $300 online

    W/o having heard any of these (except some vague memories of the Senns), here's what I'm thinking:

    - The Beyers are the best price, bar none, but with that I'd be giving up some bass, which is a critical issue for me.

    - The AKG's are the highest rated by everyone, but they are also the most expensive. Typically AKG is not known for deep bass and a full sound, so I have some reservations there too.

    - The Ultrasone name is new to me. Lots of people have recommended them to me, but this usually comes from the pro audio crowd. Also, in the bass department, some of their phones like the PROline 750 is unusually lean, whereas the 650 isn't. And what's the dif between their HFI & Proline models, really? Seems a little fishy to me. Price is very competitive, though.

    - Though heavily discounted, the Senns are still a bit steep at $300, when the Beyers are $100 less. The other thing that keeps sticking in my mind is that the Senns sound more muddy and less detailed. They have the bass down, but the mids & highs are not up to snuff. Also, the fact that this was a common complaint on the HD600's before them and they did not correct this on the latest model is a bit disconcerting. Not to mention the upgradeitis.

    In the end, it's a lot like speakers - each person has a sound that they prefer. I'm going to buy just two of these four and then return/resell the one I like least. With the Grados, that's three headphones to test, which is a lot of work. I now need to decide on which two I'm going to buy.

  25. #25
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Actually, the DT880s aren't that bad in the bass. I'm a basshead, and I am happy with them*. They're not DT770s, but then again, what are (besides DT770s)?

    *I don't own them, but they're on my list of headphones to get.
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