help on headphones

[peep08]

Hey there all,
i just wanted some opinions on some higher end headphones - dont want anything too over the top but i basically had my eyes set on the AKG k701's or 601's. I guess whta i need help with is 'knowing what im looking for'. I hear these are great headphones and am planning to run them off a headphone amp of some sort in the future (when i can afford it). Just basically wanted to know how i should react to information such as this: (extracted from AKG site):

Type Open-back, dynamic headphones
Efficiency 101 dB/V
Frequency range 12 Hz to 39,5 kHz
Rated impedance 120 ohms
Max. input power 200 mW
Cable single-sided, 99.99% oxygen-free cable, 3 m (10 ft.)
Connector 1,4" hard gold plated
Net weight (without cable) 235 g (8.3 oz.)
Patent(s) Varimotion – multiple-thickness diaphragm for dynamic transducer (Patent no. AT 403.751, US 6.185.809)

basically this is all jiberish to me, and i'd like to know in the simplest terms what all these specifications mean. eg is it better to half a lower imedance rating, etc... what i should be looking out for when looking for some headphones to buy. Any help is appreciated, or if you could even direct me to a site with some info on these specs cause im lost trying to find some. Thanks in advanced.

[Fergymunster]

Hey there all,
i just wanted some opinions on some higher end headphones - dont want anything too over the top but i basically had my eyes set on the AKG k701's or 601's. I guess whta i need help with is 'knowing what im looking for'. I hear these are great headphones and am planning to run them off a headphone amp of some sort in the future (when i can afford it). Just basically wanted to know how i should react to information such as this: (extracted from AKG site):

Type Open-back, dynamic headphones
Efficiency 101 dB/V
Frequency range 12 Hz to 39,5 kHz
Rated impedance 120 ohms
Max. input power 200 mW
Cable single-sided, 99.99% oxygen-free cable, 3 m (10 ft.)
Connector 1,4" hard gold plated
Net weight (without cable) 235 g (8.3 oz.)
Patent(s) Varimotion – multiple-thickness diaphragm for dynamic transducer (Patent no. AT 403.751, US 6.185.809)

basically this is all jiberish to me, and i'd like to know in the simplest terms what all these specifications mean. eg is it better to half a lower imedance rating, etc... what i should be looking out for when looking for some headphones to buy. Any help is appreciated, or if you could even direct me to a site with some info on these specs cause im lost trying to find some. Thanks in advanced.

Headphone.com is the site.Consider the Sennheiser HD 650 also as it's now around $300.

[peep08]

thanks! the site helped a bit but i found some of the concepts a bit overwhelming to understand fully. Just another question, if i were to run a headphone amp from the phones jack on my 5.1 receiver, would i be utilizing it to its full potential as opposed to running it directly from the source?

[Fergymunster]

thanks! the site helped a bit but i found some of the concepts a bit overwhelming to understand fully. Just another question, if i were to run a headphone amp from the phones jack on my 5.1 receiver, would i be utilizing it to its full potential as opposed to running it directly from the source?

I'm really not qualified to answer your question with your type of setup.I only know that that a headphone amp is extremely benifical in driving the very best headphones you can buy.If you chose a so so headphone than chances are a headphone amp is really not necessary.However,you can go to headfi.com and do some more reasearch there.Hope this helps.

[audio_dude]

next time, please post this in the "portable audio" section...it doubles as my headphone section

[teledynepost]

The listed specifications aren't usually too useful. Response down to 12hz? Sure the diaphram may respond, but you wouldn't be able to hear it, and it doesn't have any +- dB specification so it's really meaningless. Headphone.com is a good resource for measurement graphs, providing a reference point to compare the headphones, I would look at the graphs.
Seperate headphone amps are a good idea if you have a cheap receiver or are using it directly from a portable source, but many amps have decent headphone out.

[nightflier]

Seperate headphone amps are a good idea if you have a cheap receiver or are using it directly from a portable source, but many amps have decent headphone out.

Actually, if the Sennheiser 600 & 650's are on your list, you will definitely want a headphone amp. These cans require a bit of amplification. Not all receivers have good headphone amps (Outlaw Audio is one company that actually surprised me with theirs, but most others - Sony & Onkyo come to mind - consider headphone amplification as an afterthought or added expense).

A lot of people rave about the higher-end Senns and they are good, to be sure, but for my ears I have become quite impressed with the higher end Grados (325i, RS-2). And they also don't require as much power to drive them adequately. I believe AA has the RS-2's on clearance right now). That said, I do not like the way they feel and I can only wear them for a few CD's at a time before they start bothering me (I wear glasses). The Senns are much more comfortable.

Peep,

As far as bass is concerned, 12Hz is for dogs & bats, but 18Hz should be audible. I would not buy headphones that don't go down to at least 20Hz. Of course a lot of this depends on what kind of music you like - if you like classical organ & orchestral like me, then this should be a minimum. But what is most important is how good the mid-range and lower-trebble sounds, and in that area, the Grados do very well, better than the Senns IMO.

Because both the Senns and Grados are open (they allow outside sounds in and music out), these would not be good phones for private listening sessions in the bedroom when others are sleeping, for example. On the other hand, the fact that they are open does give them an edge in sounding more open & airy, sort of like being there in the music hall listening to the music live. I prefer that, but that may not necessarily be everyone's cup of tea. With higher-end cans, I find that I can hear more than with speakers, and so I rely on these when I audition audio components. I still listen to the speakers, but the headphones give me a different insight into the sound - maybe this is some type of coloration, I'm not sure, but I base a lot of my opinions on hearing things with headphones.

Good luck and let us know what you end up buying.

[markw]

I don't care what the specs are,. With speakers bass is a visceral sensation, passed through your body. With headphones, while able to reproduce the notes, will not make anywhere near as dramatic an impression. Something is missing...

I've got Sennheiser 580's Grado SR-80's for home use, mostly off an ancient Marantz 2270 receiver ot a NAD 1600 tuner/pre, and Koss Porta Pro's for portable use with a Sandisk.

No problems with those combinations.

[teledynepost]

How can you tell that a receiver is underpowering your headphones? I have a simple Onkyo stereo receiver that drives my Sennheisers to louder listening volumes than my portable Sony earbuds without cranking it up at all.

[peep08]

i guess the best way to find what you like is to try it - regardless of specs. Thanks for all opinions, now i just have to wait for money. I plan to get a small usb headphone amp (headroom total bithead) just for computer use. From your suggestions i think ill have a listen to the Senn650's, but i am still considering the AKG k701's which was recommended to me from a friend. still have to listen to it first though.. Next step, finding the right master headphone amp. Thanks for everyones input

[gimmieshelter31]

For more info than you could possibly want or need on headphones go to www.head-fi.org

Register. Be prepared to list your source, and music preferences and budget. Also,a headphone amp shouldn't run from another headphone jack if possible but rather from the source or on a receiver use the tape monitor. Hope this helps.

[nightflier]

How can you tell that a receiver is underpowering your headphones? I have a simple Onkyo stereo receiver that drives my Sennheisers to louder listening volumes than my portable Sony earbuds without cranking it up at all.

While I don't know what Onkyo/Sennheiser combo you're using, it's also important to note that volume is only one indicator. Typically the sound seperation will be noticeably affected and the bass will be less pronounced.

The frequency range should be well defined with clear seperation between the midrange and treble. If these sound too blended, distant or shrill, it could be because they are competing with the bass for the available power from the amp. Like the other poster said, bass will indeed have a different character thatn if heard from full-range speakers, but it should still be clearly audible and neither boomy nor bloated, signs that it is being compressed. Many underpowered amps will compress the bass and then attempt to make up for this by boosting its volume, thus making the compression that much more noticeable.

My experience has been that only the Sennheiser 600/650 really tend to be power-hungry. For example, my battery-powered Grado RA-1, while still the best sounding amp that I have yet owned, is not able to drive these headphones very well. I typically have to turn the volume way up (compared with my Grado phones). However, when I plug the Sennheisers into my Outlaw pre/pro, the volume is quite a bit higher, but I can hear a low hum during low-volume passages and the music is not as crisp and detailed.

A good headphone amp will do a much better job of isolating the sound output from the power sources and other electronics. A friend of mine has a german-made headphone amp (sorry don't remember the brand) that cost a whole lot more than my RA-1. It has has much better component parts, has a seperate power supply, and is extremely detailed. That said, to my ears it has a bit of a harsh metallic edge that may be a higher quality sound but it doesn't appeal to me at all. On the other hand it is also dead quiet during quiet passages. He loves it, but I can't stand it.

Like speakers and all other components, they need to be carefully auditioned together before settling on a purchase.

[Fergymunster]

While I don't know what Onkyo/Sennheiser combo you're using, it's also important to note that volume is only one indicator. Typically the sound seperation will be noticeably affected and the bass will be less pronounced.

The frequency range should be well defined with clear seperation between the midrange and treble. If these sound too blended, distant or shrill, it could be because they are competing with the bass for the available power from the amp. Like the other poster said, bass will indeed have a different character thatn if heard from full-range speakers, but it should still be clearly audible and neither boomy nor bloated, signs that it is being compressed. Many underpowered amps will compress the bass and then attempt to make up for this by boosting its volume, thus making the compression that much more noticeable.

My experience has been that only the Sennheiser 600/650 really tend to be power-hungry. For example, my battery-powered Grado RA-1, while still the best sounding amp that I have yet owned, is not able to drive these headphones very well. I typically have to turn the volume way up (compared with my Grado phones). However, when I plug the Sennheisers into my Outlaw pre/pro, the volume is quite a bit higher, but I can hear a low hum during low-volume passages and the music is not as crisp and detailed.

A good headphone amp will do a much better job of isolating the sound output from the power sources and other electronics. A friend of mine has a german-made headphone amp (sorry don't remember the brand) that cost a whole lot more than my RA-1. It has has much better component parts, has a seperate power supply, and is extremely detailed. That said, to my ears it has a bit of a harsh metallic edge that may be a higher quality sound but it doesn't appeal to me at all. On the other hand it is also dead quiet during quiet passages. He loves it, but I can't stand it.

Like speakers and all other components, they need to be carefully auditioned together before settling on a purchase.

I agree.When I recieved my Sennheiser HD 650 I pluged them into my mini system which was capable of enough volume to liston to at a high level.However, their was something lacking in the performance.What I ended up doing was getting a headphone amp(Creek 21se) with a good transport(CA azur 640c)It is certainly a vast improvment over the mini system.

[nightflier]

Fergy, for a full-featured and powerful amp, the Creek 21se is one of the best values out there, I agree. They can be found on audiogon and eBay for about 70% of their retail value, which is saying a lot about what people think of them.

[Fergymunster]

Fergy, for a full-featured and powerful amp, the Creek 21se is one of the best values out there, I agree. They can be found on audiogon and eBay for about 70% of their retail value, which is saying a lot about what people think of them.

Bingo Nightfier,it's one of the best kept secrets in the music industry.It's a highly regarded amp over in Europe.However,when it comes to americans they would'nt know a dimond even if they were holding it in their hands.

[nightflier]

"However,when it comes to americans they would'nt know a dimond even if they were holding it in their hands."

Fergy, I'm going to guess you are from the land of Rush, Molson, Hockey, and Shania Twain? Oh, and some pretty fine hi-fi, eh?

[Fergymunster]

"However,when it comes to americans they would'nt know a dimond even if they were holding it in their hands."

Fergy, I'm going to guess you are from the land of Rush, Molson, Hockey, and Shania Twain? Oh, and some pretty fine hi-fi, eh?

No,not really,as I'm just another dumb american at times.However,the amp is great.

[Dusty Chalk]

Efficiency/Sensitivity: How loud the headphones go, based on the same amplification. If they have a higher number, then they go louder for the same number of watts. This is usually meaningless -- most decent headphone amps go plenty loud for all efficiencies/sensitivities. The only time this is useful is if you have an amp that's capable of driving two sets of headphones, in that case, you want to match them, so that people are listening at the same volume. I was trying to conduct a listening test, in which one of the headphones was way under-efficient compared to the others, and you couldn't hear a thing when you used those headphones.

Frequency response -- same as speakers you want the starting number to be as small as possible (usually in the teens) and the ending number to be as high as possible (20kHz+). Headroom has some nice graphs, too, which will give you a starting point on how headphones sound (not recommended to use as a reference, just as a guide).

Impedance -- doesn't matter whether it's low or high, but do match it to the amplifier. I.E. if the amplifier is not designed for low impedance headphones, and you bought low impedance headphones, don't buy it. Tube amps tend to prefer higher impedance headphones (most of them can handle 120 ohms, but not 41 ohms, for example). 600 ohms is considered too high except for isolated circumstances.

Cable/single-sided -- depends on your preferences some people like being attached at both ears for that "balanced" feeling. Some people also hate coiled headphone cables.

Varimotion Technology etc. -- only if you're interested in behind-the-scenes stuff -- for example, I have an Audio-Technica that I like, and I will probably look for this same technology when I upgrade, but I would have to look it up, as I can never remember its name.

Connector -- again, needs to match amp. 1/4" and 1/8" are most common, most headphones have a 1/8" w/ 1/4" adapter, but some of the higher end ones have an actual 1/4" hardwired, in which case, if you have a 1/8" output jack, you would need an adapter.

Closed/Open/Closed Back/etc. -- how much outside sound it lets in, how much music it lets out.

Net weight -- gives you an idea how heavy it's going to weigh on your head. It's a comfort thing. Personally, I like a middlin'-heavy headphone, as I go "closed", and the heavier ones usually "isolate" better.

[audio_dude]

wow, very nice little post there !

[CookieFactory]

AKG K701 is what the Senn HD650 should've been IMO.

[nightflier]

AKG K701 is what the Senn HD650 should've been IMO.

Cookie,
Can you elaborate on this?

[CookieFactory]

Cookie,
Can you elaborate on this?

Both sound relatively similar. However the Senns have looser, slightly muddy bass. It seems this slight muddiness encroaches on the midrange making everything sound a little bit "fuzzy." The AKGs have similar bass quantity, but it is not as loose and thus impacts harder IMO. Also the midrange is clear of the Senn's fuzziness. The only area the Senns have over the AKGs lie in the upper midrange/lower treble - the K701s reveals a bit of sibilance, while the Senns are some of the most sibilance-free headphones out there.

[nightflier]

Cookie,

Just out of curiosity how do you like the Grado's (SR-325 & up) compared to the AKG's?

[CookieFactory]

Cookie,

Just out of curiosity how do you like the Grado's (SR-325 & up) compared to the AKG's?

Let's just put it this way: I've upgraded headphones quite a bit, but since getting the AKG K701 I have had no desire to upgrade at all.
Actually I have not heard the upper-end Grados so I wouldn't dream of commenting on them, BUT having said that, I do own the Grado HF-1 which is a fairly well-regarded Grado (general consensus it's equal to the RS-2, some say it rivals the RS-1). To put it bluntly I don't like it at all. It sounds engaging at first listen, but to me it sounds like a glorified Koss KSC-75. In fact I'm trying to sell it...interested?
I'm probably not the person to ask for advice on Grados...I'm VERY underwhelmed by what I've heard (limited to SR60 and my HF-1).

[Fergymunster]

Both sound relatively similar. However the Senns have looser, slightly muddy bass. It seems this slight muddiness encroaches on the midrange making everything sound a little bit "fuzzy." The AKGs have similar bass quantity, but it is not as loose and thus impacts harder IMO. Also the midrange is clear of the Senn's fuzziness. The only area the Senns have over the AKGs lie in the upper midrange/lower treble - the K701s reveals a bit of sibilance, while the Senns are some of the most sibilance-free headphones out there.

Hi CookieFactory.I'm a proud owner of the the Sennheiser HD 650 and I can't detect any "fuzziness" to the bass.As a matter of fact I've found the bass to be tight and controlled and in the acoustics department it truely stands out as an extrodinary experience.It's never a boring moment when I'm ready to listen and comfortable to wear for long sessions.However,with that said I havn't heard the AKG 701 although I have read about it on varius web sites and people are not hard pressed to say that their better than the HD 650 but to each his own.For me I'm staying with the HD 650 as it's hard to believe that a headphone could sound any better than it does.If it matters I'm using the Cambridge Audio Azur 640c v1 as my transport and the Creek 21se headphone amp for my amp.