• 10-15-2005, 04:03 AM
    Florian
    Planar speaker placment guide!
    Between the direct radiating speakers and dipol systems are some great differences: The full frequency spectrum is not only radiated to the front but also to the back! The rear wave has a enourmas impact on the sound quality. The sound is reflected by the rear wall and is added with a time delay to the direct sound.

    The amount of time delay decides by the high end dipoles (fullrange) if the recordings are reproduced with a stunning realism and stage width and depth or if they make them sound horribly unprecise and muddy! The term make it or brake it, really applys to these systems.

    If the reflections follow the direct sound in less then 3 milliseconds then the ear cannot differenciate between the two. Sound travels with 344 meter per second, 3 milliseconds are thereby 1m.

    Is the in-direct sound forced to travel less then 50cm to the backwall and back to the speaker, then it will heavily influence the sound in a negative way. Short impulses will be altered and fakely enlarged (made longer), which then causes the recording to be dirty, unprecice and softly rendered. That however changes when you give them lots of room to breathe. 70cm are the bear minimum and 1 to 1.5 meters are a lot better.

    In a good concert hall, the soundwaves will arive at least 10 milliseconds later then the direct sound waves. That is a difference of 3.5m! That is a distance that we usually cannot place dipoles in our homes (space, waf etc..) since that would take aprox 2m from the backwall in a typical home.

    Dipoles can therefore only create the illusion that your in a small concert hall. But then again, is that nothing? ;)

    Here are some more requirements that you need to look out for with dipoles.



    • Diploes must be placed 100% symetrically, otherwise they will sound different from one another.
    • In its closer surroundings should be nothing reflective or absorbative. They should stand mostly free from boundries.
    • Do not toe-in your diploes very much otherwise the reflective sound will come from left and right and not from the center which will decrease the dipol effect.
    • Dipole bass systems are especially critical with placment! Place the center of the planar bass in a odd ratio to the sidewall. Ex: 1:3 (sidewall vs. backwall)

    Well so much for the beginners guide to diplos from Florian!
  • 01-03-2006, 10:39 PM
    Florian
    Planar speaker RATIO placment file
    I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

    http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls
  • 01-16-2006, 04:28 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    [*]Do not toe-in your diploes very much otherwise the reflective sound will come from left and right and not from the center which will decrease the dipol effect.

    While I don't disagree with your overall concept, the best answer is to provide sufficient diffusion of the rear wave from the outset to provide the best imaging. I use a combination of bass traps and absorptive panels on the wall behind my 'stats. Toe in then can be optimized for the radiation pattern of the speaker. In my case, the Sound Labs radiate over a 90 degree pattern and stage width benefits from a much greater degree of toe-in than I used with my old Acoustats.

    rw
  • 01-21-2006, 12:39 AM
    Florian
    I agree with your experience too, but in this case you own a electrostatic speaker. I think that the electrostatics dont have that bass hump which is evident on the planar magnetics like Maggies or the pure ribbon speakers like the Apogees. Also the panels are curved on the soundlabs so its a tad different ;-)


    • The Maggies need a bit of a to-in in order to make up for the driver delay.

    • Electrostatics are not my knowledge field but i am sure your guide will work wonderfully

    • Pure ribbons like the Apogees need a reflective backwall with no toe-in for bass tuning and to smoothen outt the significant information below 25Hz.
  • 01-31-2006, 09:28 AM
    JoeE SP9
    With flat panel electrostatics such as my Acoustats there is a tradeoff between the use of reflections and the sweet spot. Flat electrostatics have a very small sweet spot. Toe-in is mandatory for proper tonal balance with panels of this type. Of course with toe-in there is a reduction of the "planar effect" so a compromise must be reached. The minimum amount of toe-in that puts you in the sweet spot is where one starts.Once you have the sweet spot nailed you can change tonal balance and tune the planar effect by moving your listening chair forward or back in 1" increments. You have what acts like a very subtle tone control. I have found this movement to be very helpful with CD's that have a peaky high end or other sonic aberrations. Forward movement helps open up lateral spread while simultaneously taming overly hot high frequencies. Backwards movement decreases lateral spread and tames overly hot high frequencies. Florian's suggestions about distance from walls and symetrical placement are dead on. http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

  • 02-04-2006, 07:27 AM
    Bones
    Help with the table
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

    http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls

    Hi:

    I entered the length and width of my room, and the height and width of my Martin Logan Ascent speakers. However, the excel spead sheet did not change values. Do I need to do something else? Does excel need to be running in the background?
  • 02-04-2006, 07:53 AM
    Florian
    That is strange, just enter your distance to the sidewalls and it will show up the odd ratios to the backwall. What i can really recommend for your Martin Logans, are dispersive backwalls :-)
  • 02-08-2006, 10:37 AM
    squeegy200
    Vertical Position
    Florian,

    I've been using your spreadsheet as a guideline in arranging my listening room and my Magnaplanar SMGs in that space. These are much more sensitive to placement than my previous dynamic box speakers.

    I've noticed that not only is listening position in relation to the speakers are important, that there are discernable nodes on the vertical axis as well. When I stand up I can hear different timbres and cancellations.

    I've read several of the positioning arguements made by other owners and some are advocating lifting of the speakers off the floor.

    Are there guidelines for speaker placement in the vertical axis?
  • 02-09-2006, 07:59 PM
    JoeE SP9
    All of the planar speakers I've ever owned or listened to had a different sound when standing unless they were substantially taller than the listener. Acoustat 1+1's and 2+2's do not have this problem as the are constructed to act as quasi line sources in rooms with 8' ceilings. Tilting your MMG's back on the stands will help with the vertical dispersion. Of course, using stands to raise them of the floor so that the vertical middle of the speaker is at ear height will go a lot further towards solving the problem. If I remember correctly, there used to be stands for Quad ESL57's that raised them off the floor because of the vertical dispersion problem. http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
  • 03-10-2006, 08:14 PM
    MOON
    Rear Wave Diffusion
    I agree with E-Stat that the rear wave has to be diffused big time or else as already stated it bounces off the rear wall and back to the stator panel as in Logans which I own or the same with maggies.

    I read an article in Sterophile a few years ago where they took a bi-fold slatted closet door behind the speaker on the wall with the door halfs slanting back to the wall at a 30% angle from the middle of the door where the hinges are . The hinge part is in line with the center of your speakers.

    Prime and paint the slatted door the same color as your walls. You can use a spray can primer which will speed up the finishing process. It comes in white, and then paint them after.

    The rear wave hits the slatted door and the wave is dispersed to the side and center of the room instead of going off the wall and back into the panel. This slatted panel works great and really will clean up the midrange and you will get better soundstage focus.

    You can buy the slatted doors at any Home Depot store.

    I also use slatted door halfs in the corners of my room also. Take the hinges off the 2 halfs of the doors, this gives you a panel for 2 corners. This also cleans up the sound as well.

    The rear wave shouldn't be absorbed at all, just diffusion is whats needed. I agree , electrostats should be kept quite a distance from the rear wall. Mine are a tad over 4 ft from the wall.

    If you own maggies or Logans, try this slatted door tweak, it will amaze you with the results , and it is cheap to do.

    If anyone is interested , I will post the Stereophile article on the slatted doors.

    Cheers, 1st post

    Greg
  • 03-11-2006, 11:27 AM
    Feanor
    For a similar effect...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MOON
    I agree with E-Stat that the rear wave has to be diffused big time or else as already stated it bounces off the rear wall and back to the stator panel as in Logans which I own or the same with maggies.

    ...
    Greg

    I found that a panel made of ceiling tile works very well indeed. I use a 2' wide panel place at about 35 - 45 degrees with respect to the speaker which deflects the sound outwards as well adsorbing some of the sound. See my picture here: the panel is partly obsured at left of the picture ...
    I don't know that is is better than the folding doors, but it is simpler and cheaper. Note the the ceiling tile is unpainted.
  • 03-12-2006, 07:02 AM
    Florian
    Maybe i should add that for instance, a Maggie has a different rear wall requirement, then the Soundlab and they differ from Apogees also. Planars are not created equal ;-)
  • 03-12-2006, 07:44 PM
    JoeE SP9
    I have owned Magneplaners or Acoustat's since 1976. In every case in every room they did not sound right unless there was plenty of room behind them. At somewhere between 3 and 4 feet from the wall the sound opens up and the illusion of depth becomes very distinct. Moving too far away will increase this illusion but the bass response may be negatively effected. :cool:
  • 03-31-2006, 02:21 AM
    patpong
    I toe in my Apogee about 1".
  • 08-14-2006, 07:51 PM
    dimes
    Am I crazy?

    I have a 20x20 room with a fireplace centered on one wall that bumps out about 4 ft. I'll be building cabinets on both sides to house components, media and main speakers.

    Plasma or projection screen above the fireplace so where does the center channel go?
    Above the TV is very high, below the TV raises the TV too high AND I'd want to build out the wall 4" to accomodate an in-wall speaker. Both issues are solved with....

    Fairly large Planar speaker (or two) behind an acoustically transparent screen mounted in a nice picture frame. I get the TV as low as possible, the speakers behind the screen (perfect!) and I don't have to build out the wall to inset a speaker.

    So I know the typical do's and don'ts of planar speakers and dipoles in general - away from the wall, toed in. BUT...

    A center channel speaker isn't supposed to have a very wide sound stage so I thought tight on the wall won't be so bad. How awkward would having the backwave reflected so quickly back sound? I can also consider putting an acoustic panel behind the planar to help eliminate the backwave. I realize this is an inefficient way to drive a speaker as well since I'm looking to eliminate half the sound output. I also have no idea how well dynamat or similar products work. I realize not timbre matched to the mains speakers :( but I think I know I can live with that if everything works well and I can work hard with equalization to match as best as possible.

    Back to the original question: Am I crazy?
  • 08-15-2006, 04:24 AM
    JoeE SP9
    In the first place a fairly large planar speaker is 5ft tall or taller. In the second place planar speakers require a 3 to 4 feet distance from the wall. There are slim line boxes designed for the position you have in mind. Since you are going to put the speaker(s) behind the screen and filter out half the sound why waste money on planars? Why not put a purpose designed center channel speaker below the screen? Many of them have the kind of low profile you're looking for.:ihih:
  • 08-18-2006, 12:16 PM
    squeegy200
    Magneplanar wall mounts
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    In the first place a fairly large planar speaker is 5ft tall or taller. In the second place planar speakers require a 3 to 4 feet distance from the wall. There are slim line boxes designed for the position you have in mind. Since you are going to put the speaker(s) behind the screen and filter out half the sound why waste money on planars? Why not put a purpose designed center channel speaker below the screen? Many of them have the kind of low profile you're looking for.:ihih:


    I've not heard them myself but Magnaplanar makes a Home Theater setup with wall mounted planar speakers. There is a picture of a HT setup on their website using the wall mounted speakers.
  • 02-16-2007, 12:39 PM
    squeegy200
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

    http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls


    Florian,

    The worksheet does not work anymore.

    I've been experimenting with the Cardas positioning of my magnaplanars.
  • 04-12-2007, 06:23 PM
    hermanv
    Yeah I know I'm late to the thread. I agree completely about back wave control.

    I bought some natural fiber carpet underlayment at a local wool carpet store. If I remember about 40% wool, 20% camel hair and jute. It was about 7/16 thick and reasonably priced. I cut it into 2 panels 6 x 8 feet and hung them behind my Martin Logans so the panels wrapped around the room corners (a narrow 11.5ft room) by about 1.5 feet and went floor to ceiling. Speakers were out from the rear wall about a yard. It all worked great.
    http://www.greenfloors.com/HP_CP-Under_Index.htm

    Sound Lab sells a commercial absorber panel, it's about 6 feet tall and 2 feet wide with stands. I don't know the price, but since it's Sound Labs it's probably not cheap.
    http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/accessories.htm

    Also I just found these people 2' x 4' x 4" at $47 each, includes mounting hardware.
    http://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--ATS...nels--100.html
  • 04-12-2007, 06:46 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hermanv
    Sound Lab sells a commercial absorber panel, it's about 6 feet tall and 2 feet wide with stands. I don't know the price, but since it's Sound Labs it's probably not cheap.

    No they're not. List is $1170 / pair for the Sallies.

    For quite a bit less, however, I have been very successful by making a dozen DIY bass traps. They helped me achieve a remarkably flat response in the bottom three octaves. I also use some absorptive panels directly behind the speakers and placed fake ficus plants at the first reflection points.

    rw
  • 04-12-2007, 08:09 PM
    hermanv
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    No they're not. List is $1170 / pair for the Sallies.

    rw

    Heck, that'll buy a speaker cable for one speaker :)
  • 03-05-2008, 03:49 PM
    BOXMAN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

    http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls

    I am late to the thread... but interested in this spreadsheet. As someone already pointed out, it no longer works. Any idea where another one of these spreadsheets can be found??

    Thanks
    Boxman
  • 03-05-2008, 10:37 PM
    Florian
    The main clue is to have an odd ratio between the side and backwalls. I can whip up another spreadsheet, but it will take some time since i am quite busy. Just make sure to have an odd ratio.

    Cheers


    Flo
  • 04-04-2008, 08:03 AM
    hermanv
    Dipole speaker positioning has two issues, one is the back wave sum/difference for clarity, the second is to match room standing waves for good bass.

    I found the Cardas placement guide very good for minimal bass nodes.
    http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...ing=Room+Setup Conveniently this also tends to place the speakers a good distance from the back wall. I set mine at the Cardas distance and then worked with absorptive panels to get the needed clarity. It's a pain, but worth the effort since most dipoles seem to have great clarity easily destroyed by placement problems.

    If you are used to conventional speakers, you might not even be aware of the missing clarity. Use the Cardas guide, then get some down quilts and "T" pins. experiment with hanging the absorptive material at various positions behind the speakers with various folding for width and thickness. If you find a combination you like next experiment a little with toe in. Planars on the whole seem to do best with less toe in than you might be used to.

    It's possible that more than one iteration might be needed for the absolute best answer.

    Now buy or make a permanent panels to replace the down comforter (I find that thicker is usually better) and enjoy the music.
  • 10-10-2008, 11:53 PM
    undermench
    good evening i have owned a pair of mag I D 's since around 1975 purchased from david beatty hi fi in kansas city mo. ok so big deal they have provided excellent sound i I have them paced 18 inches from the back wall and the same distance from the side wall. I get a nice level of bass response. the side walls are basically not interrupted by any furniture. i drive my speakers with a pair of modified dynaco pas 70 in the final stage are a kt-66 set of matched tubes. the grids are baised hot. they approx develop about 100 rms per chanel into a four ohm load. the amos are strapped so each one acts as a mon amp.. I believe that maggies work best with tubes. why. if i am correct what most people are not aware of is that maggies are not just a purely resistive load they also present a capactive load also. a transistor amp in some cases can not handled a capacitive load. they some time suffer from severe oscillationswith very bad results reduced power out, poor respone and in some cases they just burn up. the rest of my system is a audo research sp-7 with a thorens turntable with a straight line tracking tone arm a rae rabco sl8-e old equippment but still very esotewric. one more thing ya i know tube amps run about 1 to 3 % distortion but the human ear really cant detect this thanks for reading this UNDERMENCH
  • 10-11-2008, 04:13 AM
    Feanor
    Maggies / tubes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by undermench
    good evening i have owned a pair of mag I D 's since around 1975 purchased from david beatty hi fi in kansas city mo. ok so big deal they have provided excellent sound i I have them paced 18 inches from the back wall and the same distance from the side wall. I get a nice level of bass response. the side walls are basically not interrupted by any furniture. i drive my speakers with a pair of modified dynaco pas 70 in the final stage are a kt-66 set of matched tubes. the grids are baised hot. they approx develop about 100 rms per chanel into a four ohm load. the amos are strapped so each one acts as a mon amp.. I believe that maggies work best with tubes. why. if i am correct what most people are not aware of is that maggies are not just a purely resistive load they also present a capactive load also. a transistor amp in some cases can not handled a capacitive load. they some time suffer from severe oscillationswith very bad results reduced power out, poor respone and in some cases they just burn up. the rest of my system is a audo research sp-7 with a thorens turntable with a straight line tracking tone arm a rae rabco sl8-e old equippment but still very esotewric. one more thing ya i know tube amps run about 1 to 3 % distortion but the human ear really cant detect this thanks for reading this UNDERMENCH

    Welcome to AR, Undermench :thumbsup:

    Great to hear from you. And very interesting comments and a nice system.

    I'm a MG 1.6QR user myself and love the Magneplanar sound. I wasn't aware, though, that the Maggies present a capacitive load. I would be interested in hearing my speakers with a hundred watts or so of tube power; unfortunately no one I know around here has such an amp. On the other hand I am very happy with my tube preamp and pair of Monarchy SM-70 Pro solid state amps. Check out my system configuration, below.

    I recommend at least 2 feet from the wall behind the speakers; 3 feet might be better, but I think the the 5 or more some people insist on is more than necessary, at least to avoid doppler interference in the higher frequencies.
  • 10-11-2008, 06:33 AM
    E-Stat
    Welcome!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by undermench
    i have owned a pair of mag I D 's since around 1975 purchased from david beatty hi fi in kansas city mo. ok so big deal they have provided excellent sound

    I bought a pair of MG-IIs back in '76 after hearing some Tympanis. It was Maggies that seduced me to the joys of planars.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by undermench
    i I have them paced 18 inches from the back wall and the same distance from the side wall.

    Apparently that works fine, but I'm with Feanor in that they are capable of opening up a bit more with more space behind them.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by undermench
    I believe that maggies work best with tubes. why. if i am correct what most people are not aware of is that maggies are not just a purely resistive load they also present a capactive load also.

    Every speaker has a certain capacitive element, but in the grand scheme of things they are largely resistive. It is electrostats that present the more challenging capacitive load. Back to Maggies, because of their flat impedance, they work well with tubes.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by undermench
    a transistor amp in some cases can not handled a capacitive load. they some time suffer from severe oscillationswith very bad results reduced power out, poor respone and in some cases they just burn up.

    Its a mix. There are some SS amps that do fine with reactive loads. Threshold amps, for example, were always designed around handling that kind of load. Back in the 70s, Nelson Pass used the Dayton-Wright electrostats as the benchmark for ensuring that his amps could work with them. I have an old Stasis amp that I used to drive Acoustats for nearly twenty years. Except for replacing the output electrolytics in the power supply, the amp has been trouble free for 27 years! It is true, however, that many SS amps - even very powerful pro amps get very unhappy with reactive loads.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by undermench
    ... one more thing ya i know tube amps run about 1 to 3 % distortion but the human ear really cant detect this thanks for reading this UNDERMENCH

    As you indicated many folks get hung up on THD specs which are useless to convey any meaningful answers. It is the distortion spectra that makes more difference. The typical harmonic make up of tube amps falls squarely in an auditory "blind spot".

    rw
  • 10-29-2009, 04:19 PM
    Nasir
    I am obviously late ........
    I am going through the motions of speaker placement for my Final Sound 300i, and the above advise will be taken into account. However, the Final Sounds are slanted at an angle, very much like the SMGa Magnepans.
    Any pointers for such panel speakers will be appreciated, thanks.
  • 10-29-2009, 09:08 PM
    JoeE SP9
    The angle depends on the listening distance and the height of your chair. It is room and personal choice dependent. Use the standard placement suggestions as your starting point and tweak from there. Once you get the overall placement right, adjusting the vertical angle can be your "final" tweak. Small changes in the angle can act as a subtle tone control.

    BTW: You're never to late for questions about planars. What kind of sub are you using?
  • 11-01-2009, 12:19 PM
    Nasir
    300i floorstanding speakers, S110 downfiring subwoofer and FVSS 201 Receiver all made by Final sound, helped by a second front firing Trevi (old) subwoofer.
    When using 1 sub, its location was easily given away and also I managed a much better low frequency response in the room with the front firing sub firing to the side!!
    Having got the speakers past wife, my setup will not be symmetric nor will one the speakers be allowed to be placed more than 33cm (about 1 foot, 1 inch ) and the other 43cm (1 foot 5 inches ) from the back wall ( yeah, front wall by definition) and with me sitting 2.70m ( 8 feet 9 inches) from the center of the line separating the 2 speakers and my head almost against the other wall. One side wall is a full glass pane window 1.70m (5 feet 7 inches) away and the other side wall is 2.42m( 7 feet ) with a door in the middle thatīs almost always open. If this were not enough, another door is always open behind the right speaker. I have my work cut out for me, I know. HEEELP!!!!!!
  • 11-01-2009, 01:39 PM
    hermanv
    I think your speakers are much too close to the walls.

    If you can not move them out and away, maybe sound absorbent panels will help.

    These were reasonably priced and not ugly. http://www.atsacoustics.com/

    The Cardas audio site (and others) have much to say about placement. http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...ing=room+setup
  • 11-01-2009, 04:14 PM
    Nasir
    You are right about the speakers being too close to the back wall. All the articles including the cardas method are clear on that, but so is my sweetheart : " Not an inch more, thatīs as far out as they can come !!"
    So, I turned to the dark science of speaker placement, sound absorbers, forums, etc...
    Some articles have suggested the use of sound diffusers. The whole idea being the reduction in reflected sound intensity at the listening position without prominent reflections. By reflecting the wave from the back side of the panel in all directions, strong reflections are eliminated and an assortment of time delays are produced, thereby distributing the interferences in the frequency spectrum. Here, speakers slanting at an angle are an added bonus.
    Any ideas? Anybody used any diffusers to good effect?
    Also there a train of thought out there that in certain cases absorption is not always good,
    or too much of it.....
    My head hurts from the differing opinions on acceptable time delays, and their detrimental effects, but some reflected sound is good , so the room is the final culprit and has to be tamed!! All identical rooms sound different due to the furniture present and its layout.
    I think the little lady will summon the men in the white coats if I insist in being able to hear small differences as the speaker positions are tweaked!!!
    Another funny thing is that when I asked for help in moving the speakers around and testing with music, my assistantīs position of choice was different from mine!
  • 11-01-2009, 08:35 PM
    JoeE SP9
    A length of PVC pipe 6" OD and the height of your speakers will work as a diffusor. Place it close to and directly behind your speakers. There are any number of ways to make it stable. A standard pipe flange will do. You can paint it so it doesn't look so bad. The best thing of all is it's so cheap it won't hurt to try it.

    The rear wave from di-polar speakers should not be damped (absorbed). It will kill the open spacious sound you paid for. They should both be the same distance from the wall.

    You really only need half the pipe. However, it's hard to cut pipe in half vertically.

    Two 6Ft lengths of 6" OD PVC pipe should cost less than $20.
  • 11-02-2009, 09:04 AM
    hermanv
    Sound absorbers are a good idea, I've never heard a diffuser, but the predicted effect should help as well. Heavy drapes, soft carpet and wall hangings will accomplish the desired effect while meeting the wife acceptance factor. One other scheme is to flatter hear hearing (often better than a males hearing anyway) and convert her into an accomplice.

    A comment about rooms that are "too dead". Most better speakers are designed to measure "flat" in an anechoic chamber. Anechoic chambers are designed to have as close to zero reflections as budget will allow. In other words they are the deadest of dead rooms. Of course you should trust your ears, but I suspect that concerns about excessively dead rooms apply only to very inexpensive speakers.

    I know that as I reduced reflections in my listening room a little increase in tweeter level was needed, but clarity continued to improve.
  • 11-02-2009, 09:11 AM
    hermanv
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    The rear wave from di-polar speakers should not be damped (absorbed). It will kill the open spacious sound you paid for. They should both be the same distance from the wall.

    JoeE: When I put my ESL speakers almost 6 feet from the front wall, the time delay of the reflection caused a great deal of muddling of the sound, especially the midrange. For me at least rear wave absorbers were better than allowing reflections. Of course in a much larger room I suspect you are correct and dipoles will sound best without a rear absorber.
  • 11-02-2009, 03:23 PM
    Nasir
    Oh yes, I am trying to convert my better half into an audiophilly, and everytime there is a major improvement, I check it against her to see if its convincing. Dammit, I even sit next to her to watch the soapies - they do sound much better through these ESLs!!! The ambient sound of the National Geographic Channel programs came across so clearly that she wants to go to those places when I win the lotto!
    Come to think of it, I do have some PVC piping left over from the home improvements done a few years ago, so that will be tried next weekend together with rolling up a couple of thick carpets if the need to absorb the sound is called for. If the trick works out then I might find suitably sized lamp shades ( tall ceramic pots, etc) to put in place of the pipes to increase the WAF.
    I have even toyed with the idea of placing these 1.4m ( 4 feet ) speakers on top of the subwoofers and facing them towards the back wall ( reversing the polarity of the cables as well ) so that the back wave has a longer path to travel to the listening position.
    The sitting room has sufficient absorbing furniture, but the walls could do with some attention, now thatīs been mentioned. Any ideas please? I presume we need concern ourselves with the 1st reflection only, but with the diffuser in place, the equation might change a bit..... I can feel the headache coming on again!!
    I suppose as long as I am enjoying this challenge, and am open minded about it, no harm can come of it, apart from having to listen to certain tracks and different frequency test tones over and over again. Any suggestions on our participants favorite test tracks?
  • 11-02-2009, 03:28 PM
    This is a very interesting discussion to me right now, since I've just begun enjoying Magnepans. Of particular interest is the need to pull the speakers about 3' or so from the rear wall, since that is really difficult for many of us with smaller rooms. And that brings up another question: what about wall-hanging Magnepans? Should they not be placed on the wall for optimum sound quality?
  • 11-02-2009, 06:50 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hermanv
    JoeE: When I put my ESL speakers almost 6 feet from the front wall, the time delay of the reflection caused a great deal of muddling of the sound, especially the midrange. For me at least rear wave absorbers were better than allowing reflections. Of course in a much larger room I suspect you are correct and dipoles will sound best without a rear absorber.

    Six feet is way to far unless the rear wave is severely damped or the room is very large. The Haas effect becomes a problem and you start getting reverberant sounds when they are too far away from the wall. Most dipolars need the addition of the reflected rear radiation to sound right. That's why almost all placement recommendations say around 3 feet from the wall.
  • 11-02-2009, 06:55 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nightflier
    This is a very interesting discussion to me right now, since I've just begun enjoying Magnepans. Of particular interest is the need to pull the speakers about 3' or so from the rear wall, since that is really difficult for many of us with smaller rooms. And that brings up another question: what about wall-hanging Magnepans? Should they not be placed on the wall for optimum sound quality?

    I wish I could help you there nightflier. Have you tried asking the people at Magnepan? I'm curious what they have to say.
  • 11-02-2009, 07:18 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Nasir
    Oh yes, I am trying to convert my better half into an audiophilly, and everytime there is a major improvement, I check it against her to see if its convincing. Dammit, I even sit next to her to watch the soapies - they do sound much better through these ESLs!!! The ambient sound of the National Geographic Channel programs came across so clearly that she wants to go to those places when I win the lotto!
    Come to think of it, I do have some PVC piping left over from the home improvements done a few years ago, so that will be tried next weekend together with rolling up a couple of thick carpets if the need to absorb the sound is called for. If the trick works out then I might find suitably sized lamp shades ( tall ceramic pots, etc) to put in place of the pipes to increase the WAF.
    I have even toyed with the idea of placing these 1.4m ( 4 feet ) speakers on top of the subwoofers and facing them towards the back wall ( reversing the polarity of the cables as well ) so that the back wave has a longer path to travel to the listening position.
    The sitting room has sufficient absorbing furniture, but the walls could do with some attention, now thatīs been mentioned. Any ideas please? I presume we need concern ourselves with the 1st reflection only, but with the diffuser in place, the equation might change a bit..... I can feel the headache coming on again!!
    I suppose as long as I am enjoying this challenge, and am open minded about it, no harm can come of it, apart from having to listen to certain tracks and different frequency test tones over and over again. Any suggestions on our participants favorite test tracks?

    I would try the pipes without carpet. You don't want the rear wave absorbed. You want it dispersed. The wave form from an ESL is identical for the front and rear. Facing the speakers at the wall will have little or no effect on the sound.

    Magneplanars (Tympani's excepted) will always sound better from the back. There is no panel with magnets and holes in the way. All floor standing Maggy's have increased high frequencies and smoother midrange when turned around back-wards. They may not look as good but they all sound better that way

    The front wall should be a mix of absorptive, reflective and dispersive surfaces. Try some shallow bookshelves with a mixture of books, glass and ceramic knick knacks and stuffed animals for example. A little treatment properly used goes a long way. With some thoughtful choices room treatment doesn't have to make your living room look like a recording studio.