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Yes I have...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
I wish I could help you there nightflier. Have you tried asking the people at Magnepan? I'm curious what they have to say.
...when I can get someone on the phone, lol. The only advice has been to work with the angles of the speakers in relation to the walls. Ironically, for the surrounds, their recommendation is to point them 90 degrees to the wall. While this does change the sound, it sounds to me like this makes it too diffuse. It also makes me wonder what the sound is reflecting from - if it's the side walls, then is that not causing too much delay?
Consequently, I also have a pair of MG12s that are currently packed up because I simply do not have adequate room for them. I did notice when I had them set up, that the further I pulled them from the front wall, slightly toed in, that they would sound considerably better, but in my room that meant I lost far too much floor space. Hence the reason they are packed up for now.
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Nasir, how did things work out? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Well, I tried the pipes but without an obvious result, so the investigation will continue.
Then I put the Final Sound 300i on top of each subwoofer still keeping the same short distances from the back wall, played around with the toe in and achieved an acceptable soundstage, extending beyond the sides of the speakers. I suspect the reflections are slightly smearing the image, giving me the impression that the sound is coming from the outer sides of the speakers, but it does conjure up a wider stage. I am not sure about depth so much, but its the best setup so far. I want to try the pipes next, after having played a wide variety of music. Listening, with my eyes closed, its easy to make out the vocals coming from the center, easily putting the vocalist in the middle of the line between the 2 speakers. I havenīt had any experience with how much depth one can get. I can tell
some sounds are from further back, but in between is still a mystery so far. Anybody care to explain or help?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
Six feet is way to far unless the rear wave is severely damped or the room is very large.
I guess it all depends upon what you consider a very large room. After considerable experimentation and measuring using calibrated tones and an SPL meter, I found that about eight feet out from the back wall provided the most neutral bass response in my 25' long room With the U-1s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
The Haas effect becomes a problem and you start getting reverberant sounds when they are too far away from the wall. Most dipolars need the addition of the reflected rear radiation to sound right.
Only when you do not have an appropriate amount of diffusion. I use a forest of bass traps to further flatten the bass and to minimize that issue. Further, I have fake ficus trees flanked on either side of the stats to address the first reflection points. The stage I get is both deep and precise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
That's why almost all placement recommendations say around 3 feet from the wall.
As a minimum. The rule of thirds applies in all directions in order to minimize room modes. I would be curious to see pics of your arrangement. Mine are available in the gallery.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
And that brings up another question: what about wall-hanging Magnepans? Should they not be placed on the wall for optimum sound quality?
That would be horrible sonically for any dipole. They need to breathe. Remember that the room is the enclosure.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
Six feet is way to far unless the rear wave is severely damped or the room is very large. The Haas effect becomes a problem and you start getting reverberant sounds when they are too far away from the wall. Most dipolars need the addition of the reflected rear radiation to sound right. That's why almost all placement recommendations say around 3 feet from the wall.
I agree with this advice. I think there is such a thing as too far from the wall behind. I use the configuration below, and get excellent imaging and sound stage.
I don't have E-Stat's deep bass problem with my Maggie 1.6, (unfortunately), so that's not an issue for me.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...aggieSetup.jpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I don't have E-Stat's deep bass problem with my Maggie 1.6, (unfortunately), so that's not an issue for me.
The issue was not so much with the low bass as it was the mid to upper bass region (call it the second and third octaves). When the U-1s were close to the wall, the overall sound was heavy and ill defined, not to mentioned constricted dimensionally. The first octave was there as they respond flat in my room to 25 hz. But, the fat and overripe midbass colored the result and masked what low bass was truly present. Not only did my ears tell me this, but also detailed measurements using test tones and the trusty RS SPL meter confirmed this.
I fully understand that each room and speaker combination pose their own unique situation. Fore and aft placement will, however, tune the critical mid bass region for most all dipoles. Admittedly, some speakers benefit from the reinforcement.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I guess it all depends upon what you consider a very large room. After considerable experimentation and measuring using calibrated tones and an SPL meter, I found that about eight feet out from the back wall provided the most neutral bass response in my 25' long room With the U-1s.
Only when you do not have an appropriate amount of diffusion. I use a forest of bass traps to further flatten the bass and to minimize that issue. Further, I have fake ficus trees flanked on either side of the stats to address the first reflection points. The stage I get is both deep and precise.
As a minimum. The rule of thirds applies in all directions in order to minimize room modes. I would be curious to see pics of your arrangement. Mine are available in the gallery.
rw
I completely agree with your placement suggestions. My speakers are a little over 4 feet from the wall in my 26 foot long room. I don't have all the bass traps that you have but I have books (lots) and LP's (lots) on the walls with bass traps and other devices. The first reflection points received special care. With a good recording the walls behind and to the sides of the speakers disappear. The sound stage is almost holographic in depth, width and placement.
Sometimes when I am somewhere helping someone set up a system I use Duct tape to hang towels on the walls at the first reflection points. When I return the towels are gone and something more appropriate and aesthetically pleasing is there. If you are reading this and don't have panels, the advice about reflection points still applies.
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So should they be...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
That would be horrible sonically for any dipole. They need to breathe. Remember that the room is the enclosure. rw
...on-wall or off? Sorry, but I didn't understand your response.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
...on-wall or off? Sorry, but I didn't understand your response.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I would not hang them on the wall as one would hang a painting with the panel radiating directly against the wall. What Magnepan recommends, however, is that you could mount them on side walls (or HT cabinets) on hinges such that they fire down the wall as opposed to at the wall. And they can swing out of the way when not in use.
Wall mounting
Note that you must still allow some distance behind them for optimum results.
rw
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Off-wall, like any dipole really. They need room to breath which means that they're needs to be some room between the speaker and the wall.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasir
Well, I tried the pipes but without an obvious result, so the investigation will continue.
Then I put the Final Sound 300i on top of each subwoofer still keeping the same short distances from the back wall, played around with the toe in and achieved an acceptable soundstage, extending beyond the sides of the speakers. I suspect the reflections are slightly smearing the image, giving me the impression that the sound is coming from the outer sides of the speakers, but it does conjure up a wider stage. I am not sure about depth so much, but its the best setup so far. I want to try the pipes next, after having played a wide variety of music. Listening, with my eyes closed, its easy to make out the vocals coming from the center, easily putting the vocalist in the middle of the line between the 2 speakers. I havenīt had any experience with how much depth one can get. I can tell
some sounds are from further back, but in between is still a mystery so far. Anybody care to explain or help?
Imaging beyond the lateral plane is almost a given with planar speakers. The perceived width and depth are recording dependant. With good recordings the back wall (behind the speakers) and the side walls will disappear. You do need to damp the first reflections on the side walls. To find that point, sit in your listening position and have someone move a mirror along a side wall. When you can see the speaker in the mirror that is the first reflection point. Do the same for both sides. Place sound absorbing material from near the floor to just above the speaker height. A foot and a half to two feet in width should be sufficient.
Good luck and good listening. Keep us informed of your progress.
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Perhaps some of you can enlighten me on what sort of depth perception to expect: I can clearly distinguish between close, somewhere in the middle and far behind, presumably from how clear and intense the sound is. No problems with locating instruments from left to right. In fact, I don`t always get the main vocals dead in the middle!
Another funny thing: listening the next day, I almost always find something is off and try to correct it. Obviously with my non symmetric arrangement, the toe in is not identical.
After all these weeks, the results are heartwarming.
By placing the speakers on top of the subwoofers ( the arrangement looks like a Martin Logan ESL now , panel on top of woofer unit ) Iīve managed to overcome a couple of problems (or at least masked them) : Some sounds and certain vocals seemed to be coming from very near the floor, giving me a not so realistic feeling. These floorstanding speakers are slanting at an angle.
I use the system to watch normal TV as well, and am always trying to pick out what is not in the right place.
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The depth of the sound-stage is highly dependant on the recording. Most popular music recordings are done with multi-tracking and dubbed and re-dubbed. They have little or no depth, although they usually have a very good left right spread. Generally Classical and Jazz (not smooth jazz) have a decent sound-stage because minimal miking and overdubbing is used. If you play vinyl, any Direct to Disc recording will have a very good and deep sound-stage. They are usually recorded with minimal miking and no studio overdubbing. An excellent example of a deep sound-stage on a CD is Jacintha, Here's To Ben, Groove Note GRV1001-2. It was recorded live to analog two track tape and the CD was mastered from that two channel tape. This CD sounds like there is a room 30 ft deep and 20 feet wide where my speakers used to be. To some the word analog may be a turn off. I hear no tape hiss whatsoever in this recording. What I hear is a group of musicians with a very good singer performing in a moderately large room
With your ESL's on top of your subs and tilted back you may be out of the direct sound field. You may need to set your speakers up with no tilt. A lot of the sound seeming to come from very low could be an indicator of too high a crossover frequency.
How tall are your subs?
What crossover frequency are you using?
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The subs stand 14 in (about 36 cm) tall and the crossover is around 100 Hz ( selected automatically by the Final Receiver ).
You have a point there regarding direct sound due to the tilt of the ESL. I will have to try that and the diffuser pipes as well. At the moment the tilt is probably reducing the comb filter effect, but the center of the ESL beams well above my head. With the speakers on the floor, certain sounds seem to be coming from the bottom, but now that is no longer the case. So, I am trying to solve as many different effects as possible.
These improvements have to be enjoyed, and I end up sleeping less!
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100 Hz is probably a good point for the crossover. The tilt at that height will put you out of the direct sound field. ESL's have very Little dispersion above and below the diaphragms. The level on the subs may be too high. A good starting point is to turn them up until you can just hear them as separate sound sources and then turn them down a bit. Ideally a Sound Pressure Level Meter like the Radio Shack unit and a CD, LP or PC program is the best way to dial in sub-woofer levels.
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Well yes, but then...
this is false advertising:
http://www.magnepan.com/content/bina...ers/MC1_02.jpg
I'm also wondering about what to put on the wall behind them. Should I even use absorbing panels, or are the speakers designed to make use of a harder wall surface?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Well, I suspect it depends on the angle of the speakers with respect to the wall. The greater that angle, (assuming less than 90 degrees), the more the backwave will be defected away from coming back at the speakers themselves.
To some degree I employ the principle myself using this configuration, The ceiling panel baffle effectively increases the angle of the speaker with respect to the wall behind ...
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...aggieSetup.jpg
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I can comment on maggies mounted on wall, as that's exactly as I have them in my main 7.2 HT. The MC1's I have wall mounted work very well as surround speakers and are infinitely adjustable as to their directionality. Bass falls off below 100Hz quickly, but they provide a much more expansive soundfield compared to any monopole speakers I've ever heard.
The setup shown for the front wall is the correct way to set them if your going to use a multiple MC1 setup on the front wall. It appears non-traditional for maggies, but I assure you it produces a planar type of sound field. With two MC1's as a center the focus for dialog can be quite good across a large seating area. My system doesn't lend itselt to use suce a placement strategy, but I would not discount how good it could sound compared to my CC3.
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With the Finals as far out as the little woman would allow and the subs directly behind them, I got a taste of a sonic scenario that I thought was only found in reviews and other peopleīs listening rooms. With eyes closed and the lights turned off, it didīnt need much effort to place instruments around an imaginary stage, the distances being relative obviously, since one would presume that the distance between speakers limits the width of the stage. There were a couple of drawbacks though: some sounds and certain vocals seemed to to coming from the bottom of the speakers giving an unnatural feeling.
I placed the panels on top of the subwoofers to eliminate the problems, but the Iron Lady would not permit the Martin Logan lookalike arrangement that far out from the back wall. Not very excited with sound produced, I turned the slanting panels around to face the back wall and changed the polarity of the speaker wires.
Initially the sound did not please me, but I kept changing the distance to the back wall within the limits and spent a lot of time with the toe in to get it right. The soundstage is now comparable to my previous best, but it lacks a little in locating cues. I could get a better feel of distances with the first arrangement. I dare say that there must be a lot more ceiling reflections present now....... I had better get to work on the diffusers!!
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My 2 cents
I've had my mmgs for 12 or more years now I think. Bought them say 6 months after they came out. They are heavily modded (some I am pretty sure only I have done) and while it is easy to dismiss them I have had a 1.6 owner over to listen who agreed that the modded mags beat his stock 1.6s handedly. (And that was in the first setup I will describe below.)
Lots of different rooms and listening setups.
I agree with alot of the advice here. Like having them vertical and away from the back wall. IMHO all that is a must.
Though I have left the "normal" setup along time ago. Never liked any toe in when I was running a normal setup either.
FOr the longest time I had a nearfield and sideways setup with the speakers facing each other:
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/..._10.22.096.JPG
Listening to the backs of the speaker this setup was less "Hifi" and more like music. The speakers disappeared and the interesting thing was that even though they were a foot from the sidewalls the distance to the back wall was what was important. For small rooms, this is IMHO a win win as one can place them close to the walls as long as they are out into the room. IN the pict the speakers are about 4 & 1/2 ft into the room. And I had them close to 6 ft out before that.
HOwever I recently change to a more radical setup, though I am guessing that the sideways one is plenty radical for Feanor :p
I cant really describe it so a pict is best:
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/...up_3.11.10.JPG
As you can see the listener is looking at the sides of the speakers edge on. The speaker just disappears and one is left with real music in a real space. Not sure if this works in the "Hey I sit 10ft away from the speakers" kind of setup, but I am not the only one who has tried this and really liked it.
Anyhow please actually TRY either of these setups with vertical speakers before criticizing. You may just be pleasantly surprised.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnrazor
I've had my mmgs for 12 or more years now I think. Bought them say 6 months after they came out. They are heavily modded (some I am pretty sure only I have done) and while it is easy to dismiss them I have had a 1.6 owner over to listen who agreed that the modded mags beat his stock 1.6s handedly. (And that was in the first setup I will describe below.)
Lots of different rooms and listening setups.
....
Anyhow please actually TRY either of these setups with vertical speakers before criticizing. You may just be pleasantly surprised.
I won't criticize, DR, but I won't necessarily try them either. But here's a thought for you ...
Your unusual setups suggest to me that you might like ominidirectional speakers. For several years, (long ago), I owned a pair of Ohm F, Walsh driver, omnis and they at the same time "disappeared" but provided good imaging almost anywhere in the rooms without any "sweet spot".
BTW, one of these fine days I'm going to try that choke in series with the 1.6 tweeter to control RFI. Either that, of capacitor in parallel with them.
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Feanor, given your experience/knowledge of crossovers, I am surprised you haven't upgraded the crossovers for your 1.6s. Are you planning to?
Dawnrazor, do you have a real pic of your setup?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
Feanor, given your experience/knowledge of crossovers, I am surprised you haven't upgraded the crossovers for your 1.6s. Are you planning to?
Dawnrazor, do you have a real pic of your setup?
Good question, aa. I've certainly considered it. There is a lot of discussion and examples of MG 1.6 upgrades over at Audio Asylum's MUG forum, (here). Lots of people say they have had significant improvements doing these upgrades. Personally I just haven't got around to it; I'm no super-tweaker myself.
It does require removing or cutting the Maggie's "sock" and making some wiring rearrangements. However the crossover itself is pretty simple ...
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...ks/mag16-2.gif
Were I to go for it, I'd start with a tweeter capacitor upgrade, maybe Mundorf Supremes. I have already replaced the standard fuse with a Hi-fi Tuning fuse for, at best, an extremely minor improvement.
Dawnrazor advocates RFI control on the tweeter, as I recall a 100 uH inductor in series. An alternative in that regard might be a 47 nF capacitor in parallel.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
It does require removing or cutting the Maggie's "sock" and making some wiring rearrangements.
Isn't that just a small piece at the back you have to cut?
Quote:
Originally Posted by feanor
Were I to go for it, I'd start with a tweeter capacitor upgrade, maybe Mundorf Supremes. I have already replaced the standard fuse with a Hi-fi Tuning fuse for, at best, an extremely minor improvement.!
For the price you paid for the tuning fuses you could have paid a chunk of the crossover parts. Unless you want to keep a fuse no matter what...
The crossover schematics look easy enough even to me. It could cost you some if you use good parts but it may well be worth it. Let us know when you decide to!
I just looked up the Supremes, very expensive!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
Isn't that just a small piece at the back you have to cut?
For the price you paid for the tuning fuses you could have paid a chunk of the crossover parts. Unless you want to keep a fuse no matter what...
The crossover schematics look easy enough even to me. It could cost you some if you use good parts but it may well be worth it. Let us know when you decide to!
I just looked up the Supremes, very expensive!
Yeah, but I didn't have to cut anything to install the fuses!!
The Mundorf Supremes are pretty expensive. One could get by with a single pair of 22 uF @ US$92.16 each from Parts ConneXion. Some would might argue that the multi-capacitor set up is better in concept. So one might prefer 18 + 3.9 + 0.1 uF, though that would add up to significantly more money.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Some might argue that the multi-capacitor set up is better in concept
What advantages do they claim this has?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
Feanor, given your experience/knowledge of crossovers, I am surprised you haven't upgraded the crossovers for your 1.6s. Are you planning to?
Dawnrazor, do you have a real pic of your setup?
Not a recent one, though I am in the middle of a stand project and will be moving the amps and tidying up the room, and finalizing my panel vibration tweak. I will take some picts then.
Right now, here are some old ones but you can kind of see some of the mods. WHy I only have pictures of the lowpass filters and not the capless high pass is beyond me. THough I will be going active once I make some new ICs.
http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/5570.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Dawnrazor advocates RFI control on the tweeter, as I recall a 100 uH inductor in series. An alternative in that regard might be a 47 nF capacitor in parallel.
Hey Feanor,
It is actually 10 uH. Here are the ones I bought and put in series with both bass panels and tweeters:
http://www.mouser.com/search/Product...?R=542-5502-RC
Best 12$ upgrade for mags!!!
And I think I would like omni speakers. THough I cant say as much as I like maggies. FWIW there still is a sweetspot in this setup.
Also I dont have the good sense to hide my love of Starwars on internet sites, so:
Feanor if one is to be a wise and just audiophile one must embrace a larger view, not just the narrow-minded dogmatic view of Magnepan...
YOu should give either of those setups a try. I am not saying they will work for everyone, but when they do, you will know it and it will be worth the effort. Also the #1 mag dealer in the states sets up their mags sideways and actually does a demo where they move them from the normal setup to a sideways setup while you listen. RIbbon models dont seem to be as particular about working in this setup as they are vertical and have a 180 deg tweeter dispersion.
d
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Dawnrazor, are you based in the UK?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnrazor
Hey Feanor,
It is actually 10 uH. Here are the ones I bought and put in series with both bass panels and tweeters:
http://www.mouser.com/search/Product...?R=542-5502-RC
Best 12$ upgrade for mags!!!
And I think I would like omni speakers. THough I cant say as much as I like maggies. FWIW there still is a sweetspot in this setup.
Also I dont have the good sense to hide my love of Starwars on internet sites, so:
Feanor if one is to be a wise and just audiophile one must embrace a larger view, not just the narrow-minded dogmatic view of Magnepan...
...
d
Thanks for the correction on the inductor value, DR.
Someday maybe you should check out some omnis. I suggest Ohm, see here. They have a 120 day return policy.
I owned Ohm F's for awhile many years ago, and I consider it one of my biggest audio mistakes that I sold them in favor of B&W DM7's. Oh, the folly! :cryin:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
Dawnrazor, are you based in the UK?
AA, so sorry. I am in the states. But am still a good person:smile5:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Thanks for the correction on the inductor value, DR.
Someday maybe you should check out some omnis. I suggest Ohm, see here. They have a 120 day return policy.
I owned Ohm F's for awhile many years ago, and I consider it one of my biggest audio mistakes that I sold them in favor of B&W DM7's. Oh, the folly! :cryin:
Why did you sell them??
ALso, I will keep them in mind, but have a problem auditioning inhome a speaker I have no intention or budget to buy.
But maybe the mags will die. Given my soon to come active experiments there is a great chance I could kill em...Maybe I'll be one of the few to toast a quasi ribbon tweet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnrazor
AA, so sorry. I am in the states. But am still a good person:smile5:
lol, I don't doubt it. I'm half American myself;) The reason I ask is because the price on the link you posted appears to be in British Pounds.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
What advantages do they claim this has?
I think an engineer would say the only advantage is lower resistance.
However I believe some 'philes feel that mutiple caps, and especially where there's one < 0.1 uF, gives better high frequency transients. I'm not sure: maybe the theory is that lower value caps load & discharge more quickly.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
lol, I don't doubt it. I'm half American myself;) The reason I ask is because the price on the link you posted appears to be in British Pounds.
Audio, I think it is a smart website as it appears in dollars when I click it.
Looks like when you go there it is pounds.
Top or bottom half???
Almost for got, half of me is from wales and ireland...top half I think.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I think an engineer would say the only advantage is lower resistance.
However I believe some 'philes feel that mutiple caps, and especially where there's one < 0.1 uF, gives better high frequency transients. I'm not sure: maybe the theory is that lower value caps load & discharge more quickly.
Yep, that is my understanding of the theory. Though I dont use caps in my maggies except on the lowpass...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnrazor
Audio, I think it is a smart website as it appears in dollars when I click it.
Smart website indeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnrazor
Top or bottom half???
It's hard to say really. Both very different. I think I feel more French than anything:) That is where I've lived most of my short life (I'm 22).
Have you spent much time on this side of the pond?
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I once heard a pair of Beveridge ESL's that were designed to be set up facing each other on opposite walls. They were part of one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard.
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Hello everybody,
I have been quite for a while now, in fact since the 3 rd of January when the ferryman took my favorite cat to the other side where I hope they know that its favorite foods include Portuguese piri-piri chicken and boiled fish!!! Alas the the 2 remaining cats are so different....
Anyway, to avoid being depressed, I built 3 small sized diffusers but the results are not that convincing and believe me, unless you want to occupy yourself so that the mind should not wander, I strongly suggest buying the stuff instead of building them using wood. The therapy worked for me at least.....
When I say that the results are not that convincing, I mean that over the whole frequency range, but for that one needs reasonable distances from diffusers to listening position, enough room to position the diffusers, size of pieces of wood and number of wells etc....
So, was it a complete waste of time one may ask?
I should say a categorical NO!!!!
I considered my living space and the size of diffuser I could hide behind the speaker without being thrown out of the house.... a mere 42 cm ( more or less 17 inches ). Next, I chose a 2D skyline design and made 1 diffuser using 3cm by 3 cm ( 1.2 inches by 1.2in) pieces of pine wood, another using 1.3 cm by 2.7 cm ( 0.5 in by 1.1in ) pine wood and a third 1D diffuser using 6cm ( 2.5 in) thick pieces of wood with 7 wells of 12cm ( 5 in )max depth all designed for frequencies 1kHz and above. Then, I stacked them up against the wall behind one speaker... yes 3 diffusers to cover one speaker only!
The next part is not so scientific in the sense that I did not use a Radio Shack sound meter ( item on my shopping list to get when I visit the US once a year ), but instead put my 2 non linear, non anything for that matter, big ears to register differences with and without the diffusers in place.
What did I hear ??? Brace yourselves, its what I did not hear is what matters!!!
The test CD tones for the design frequencies was significantly softer indicating to my ears that the wall reflections for these frequencies was diffused, but to get diffusion for the whole frequency range, one would have to build several different diffusers to account for the each segment of frequencies.....
An objective conclusion can only be drawn after I get the sound meter, until then you can take my word on what its worth.
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