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  1. #1
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    Is WikiLeaks good or bad?

    So, wiki leaks is getting lots of attention lately. I am all for exposing liars and cheaters for what they are but not quite at the expense of our National Security. On the other hand, all these covert back room deals, money and arms exchanges as closed door bargaining chips should be exposed.

    The US Government is so corrupt that many of them right on up to the President should really be in jail for their actions just like any normal citizen would be for the same type of actions.

    I only read a little of the list of things done but not too surprised. And people think Michael Moore is off track...HA he is so far on the money than most people want to admit outloud or even to themselves. Many people take what they get to see in the media and public eye at face value when most of it is all just a big bullcrap smokescreen. These guys are criminals all the way.

    Next up, they aim to expose all the underhanded dealings of a big bank. Again I am all for it because the US Gov was again in bed with them bailing them out and letting them do what they do to the little people.

    Any thoughts on this touchy subject?

  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    So, wiki leaks is getting lots of attention lately. I am all for exposing liars and cheaters for what they are but not quite at the expense of our National Security. On the other hand, all these covert back room deals, money and arms exchanges as closed door bargaining chips should be exposed.
    ...

    Any thoughts on this touchy subject?
    My judgement is pending, however I believe that intenational diplomacy, like national security, can only be properly conducted with a good deal of secrecy. If candid thoughts and opinions cannot be conveyed, or become public knowledge, how will business be done. Basically "deals", bad or good, need to be worked out privately between the deal makers before they're announced: this is reality.

    The otherside of the coin is whether there is such a thing as private correspondence, not just Stated Department, Defence Department, or NSA, but yours & mine. Wikileaks, IMO, is guilty of "dealing in stolen property".

    BTW, I thing Michael Moore is right about a lot of things, (but not necessarily everything he says).

  3. #3
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I totally agree with you Hyfi, but I think this is very damaging and dangerous for foreign relations. Now that all this information is out, how are other countries going to deal with us now?

    Now the bank thing is a different issue. Banks need to be outed big time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I totally agree with you Hyfi, but I think this is very damaging and dangerous for foreign relations. Now that all this information is out, how are other countries going to deal with us now?

    Now the bank thing is a different issue. Banks need to be outed big time.
    I agree that it is dangerous. My point is that none of this stuff should be happening behind the voters and taxpayers backs. The stuff they do and that has been exposed is criminal and not what the democratic majority of voters would vote for if asked.

    These guys cram In God We Trust and all other ethics and religious beliefs down our throats, while they are the biggest sinners around. They all expect us to trust them when they are far from trust worthy.

    Along with banks, in queue will also be Energy and Oil companies.

  5. #5
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    The US Government is so corrupt that many of them right on up to the President should really be in jail for their actions just like any normal citizen would be for the same type of actions.

    Don't fool yourself though, there is not a single government that is not "corrupt" in some way. Every government has it's "hidden agenda's", and "dirty little (or big) secrets"...
    some of the "dirty secrets" are necessary for the "wellbeing" of a state, and some others are kept away from the public to avoid complications in big cases that need research and all...

    Having that said:
    Wikileaks is bad. Dangerous. While I believe a government should be open, and sharing most information with the citizens, I also believe, that some things, are best to be kept secret.

    Just like "you don't hang out the dirty laundry" too for everyone to see. everyone might have their little secrets, some bad, some not that bad, some even good. Important is that these secrets are secrets for a reason. Of course there are limits though.

    In this case, not only can the documents damage public relations with other states and countries, but can also be easily be wrongly interpreted, giving them a whole different meaning, or nuance things more than others, making the information potentially dangerous in the wrong hands.

    Also, I think that it is especially bad to see that wikileaks only releases US documents. BAD PR, in every sense of the word...
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    Quote Originally Posted by basite

    Also, I think that it is especially bad to see that wikileaks only releases US documents. BAD PR, in every sense of the word...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange

    He is Australian, not from the US so he has no allegiance to USA. He more than likely is being paid by terrorists to further show the world just how Fed up our government (and big business) is and further ruin us as a nation who used to be able to live without fear everyday.

  7. #7
    Ajani
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    I agree with most (possibly all) of what has been said so far...

    Some things should be exposed but others should remain secret... All governments engage in corrupt activity, but some of it is necessary and some is just plain wrong... The tough question is determining what should be made public...

  8. #8
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    The short term effect of these leaks will probably be minimal. The long term affects may never be known. The biggest damage in all of this is that many foreign governments may feel that the US has security issues and may be hesitant to hold forthright conversations with our government for fear that this information will be leaked which could cause problems for those governments.

    Diplomacy like sausage is probably something you don't want to see made. In an ideal world many of these "back-room" deals would not have to be made out of the public view but that is not realistic. These deals often need to be made when government leaders are further ahead of an issue than their constituents back home.

    Think of what would have happened if an organization like Wikileaks "leaked" the communications between the US and Britain back in 39-40. Americans were very much isolationists and would have been outraged that the US was considering helping the British in their war against Hitler. It is possible that Roosevelt would not have won re-election in 1940 had they known the extent of our support of China and Britain as they battled Japan and Germany while we maintained an "official" policy of neutrality. This is an extreme example and I am not comparing our current situation to pre-World War II but it does show that diplomacy often does have to occur behind closed curtains for a variety of reasons.

    Another issue that some have raised is that Wikileaks could potentially be used to plant disinformation. From what I can see the founder of Wikileaks has a bit of an agenda and is not exactly vetting the information. This IMO means he is susceptible for the possibility of being used as a pawn by foreign intelligent services. Traditional media certainly has its faults but there was a certain standard and responsibility maintained. As the traditional media has eroded and we are beseiged by "talking heads", bloggers and sites like Wikileaks the possibility of people being swayed solely by POV and not engage in critical thinking is becoming more of a reality.

  9. #9
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    Having that said:
    Wikileaks is bad. Dangerous. While I believe a government should be open, and sharing most information with the citizens, I also believe, that some things, are best to be kept secret.
    I don't necessary agree with that statement. If there is secrecy, it means there is no accountability.

    Why do you think most governments won't allow freedom of press? Because they don't want any accountability for their action. It is simple as that

  10. #10
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Tempest in a teapot. This stuff is trivial crap compared to the last bunch of papers outlining how the US deceived it's citizens as to what they were up to (and how poorly it's going) in Afghanistan.

    Really, diplomacy is a seedy and backstabbing business and everyone who is involved in it knows that. That the Saudi's wanted the Iranian leaders killed, and that Russia is run by mobsters?.....DUH! Tell us something we don't know!!
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  11. #11
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Tempest in a teapot. This stuff is trivial crap compared to the last bunch of papers outlining how the US deceived it's citizens as to what they were up to (and how poorly it's going) in Afghanistan.

    Really, diplomacy is a seedy and backstabbing business and everyone who is involved in it knows that. That the Saudi's wanted the Iranian leaders killed, and that Russia is run by mobsters?.....DUH! Tell us something we don't know!!
    It's undoubtedly true that the governments & agencies mentioned in these documents have long since guessed the content. The real problem is the now-public content can be hyped by the parties to suit their propaganda agendas, or on the other hand, that the info can be used against them by their opponents.

    So for example, it is well-know that Pakistan is a flacky ally for the US. Pakistanis feel they must, for practical and religious reasons, hedging their bets that the Taliban might "win" in Afghanistan. Further, the Pakistan government & military cannot take draconian measures against the Taliban and Islamist tribal leaders because Islamism and anti-Americanism are endemic in the whole country, and the backlash would totally counterproductive. Thus is it a big public embarrassment for the President to be quoted as saying he "doesn't really care" that the the US uses drones against militant leaders.

  12. #12
    RGA
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    I don't really buy into most of the "national defense" arguments because that just gives government a way to conduct themselves as a dictatorship while waving the freedom flag in people's face.

    This is not much different than a whistleblower who photocopies private documents - like in the Pinto case - where Ford brass deliberately let people die to save a couple of bucks.

    And Ford was allowed to stay in business paid the fines and really nothing happened to those decision makers for essentially committing murder or at least manslaughter. And like Ford the people in the private documents doing bad things will likely get a slap on the wrist - wiki leaks will probably get closed (I have yet to be able access it). Iran doesn't trust or like America and nothing put out there will surprise them.

    America is morally and ethically bankrupt nation and totally corrupt. That came to a head in Florida with hanging Chads, People on the rolls being dropped, nepotism (gee who was governor of the state in question), who funds the political parties, and if you don't do what big pharma, big oil want you will likely not see your next birthday. America business/government (which is the same thing) is totally corrupt - the only difference is they're better at stealing and killing without getting caught or being as obvious as third world nations. Wiki-leaks simply shows that they're just as corrupt but it's not so patently blatant. 30% of the population is socio-pathic according to psychological studies. Most of them go into big business and government so they can satisfy their hunger for power/greed. The population to them is nothing more than the equivalent of chickens on an assembly line awaiting the hatchet. Quite literally, their fellow man is nothing more than cattle to profit on. A capitalistic world is the perfect world for them to thrive.

    The Canadian government is looking bad here as well. A guy actually puts forth the "truth" for good or ill, illegally attained or not, the fact is rather than address the "truth" of the documents everyone wants to go after the guy who attained the documents and focus blame on him rather than to go after the socio-paths, psycho-paths in charge. http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/201...s-assange.html on the flip side it's nice to know that Flannagan is a Fascist and with any luck we can root out these cancers from our public office.

  13. #13
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    I think some people here are confusing what is actually in the Wikleak documents with their perception of or position on US foreign policy. That is a separate issue.

    These documents were apparently from a data dump (think of it as someone cleaning out their deleted e-mails ) and they do not give any real proof of clandestine government activity, cover-ups or conspiracies. Yes, they are from government officials but to read more into them would be the equivalent of someone going through your e-mail at work and then saying that your e-mails reflect the positions and policies of your company.

    As some have said here there is really nothing new here in many ways regarding the information that was released. But revealing publicly that several Arab nations are concerned about the Iranian nuclear program and would like something to be done about Iran creates more problems than it solves. No public interest was served or protected from leaking this information. It was done by Assange's own admission because he really just likes to pi** some governments off and embarass them.
    Last edited by thekid; 12-01-2010 at 06:18 PM.

  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I don't really buy into most of the "national defense" arguments because that just gives government a way to conduct themselves as a dictatorship while waving the freedom flag in people's face.

    This is not much different than a whistleblower who photocopies private documents - like in the Pinto case - where Ford brass deliberately let people die to save a couple of bucks.

    And Ford was allowed to stay in business paid the fines and really nothing happened to those decision makers for essentially committing murder or at least manslaughter. And like Ford the people in the private documents doing bad things will likely get a slap on the wrist - wiki leaks will probably get closed (I have yet to be able access it). Iran doesn't trust or like America and nothing put out there will surprise them.

    America is morally and ethically bankrupt nation and totally corrupt. That came to a head in Florida with hanging Chads, People on the rolls being dropped, nepotism (gee who was governor of the state in question), who funds the political parties, and if you don't do what big pharma, big oil want you will likely not see your next birthday. America business/government (which is the same thing) is totally corrupt - the only difference is they're better at stealing and killing without getting caught or being as obvious as third world nations. Wiki-leaks simply shows that they're just as corrupt but it's not so patently blatant. 30% of the population is socio-pathic according to psychological studies. Most of them go into big business and government so they can satisfy their hunger for power/greed. The population to them is nothing more than the equivalent of chickens on an assembly line awaiting the hatchet. Quite literally, their fellow man is nothing more than cattle to profit on. A capitalistic world is the perfect world for them to thrive.

    The Canadian government is looking bad here as well. A guy actually puts forth the "truth" for good or ill, illegally attained or not, the fact is rather than address the "truth" of the documents everyone wants to go after the guy who attained the documents and focus blame on him rather than to go after the socio-paths, psycho-paths in charge. http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/12/01/flanagan-wikileaks-assange.html on the flip side it's nice to know that Flannagan is a Fascist and with any luck we can root out these cancers from our public office.
    It's definitely satisfying to rant once in a while -- at least that's my experience.

  15. #15
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    It's definitely satisfying to rant once in a while -- at least that's my experience.
    Well I can't just rave all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I don't really buy into most of the "national defense" arguments because that just gives government a way to conduct themselves as a dictatorship while waving the freedom flag in people's face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey
    I don't necessary agree with that statement. If there is secrecy, it means there is no accountability.

    Why do you think most governments won't allow freedom of press? Because they don't want any accountability for their action. It is simple as that
    Exactly.

    The US gov. acts all righteous and better than everyone else, but behind closed doors they do the same immoral, unethical, and at times criminal acts as all the other whacked out countries.

  17. #17
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well I can't just rave all the time.
    Of course, I agree with your rant more than disagree, though the Wikileaks aren't any new revelation.

    Sadly, most Americans (and similarly Canadians) believe they live in real democracies. The truth is they are manipulated by oligarchic interests who maintain their power by buying politicians and disseminating misinformation through the media they have also bought or control.

    Prominent areas of missinformation they/we are being feed:
    • Tax reductions are the best solution to recession
    • Lower taxes & regulations are the only way to stimulate growth
    • All government intervention and proaction (except military) is "socialist"
    • Public heath care as "socialist"
    • The State of Israel must continue to get uncritical Western support
    • Strong education funding as a non-essential luxury
    • Global warming isn't real and/or isn't caused/exacerbated by human activity
    • The "(North) American Dream" is by most people in a world of globalization of business, growing population, diminishing resources, and changing climate.
    • A corporation is a person with an unrestricted right to free speech and to (covertly) support candidates. <=Added
    Personally I despair. The average person is too stupid, ignorant, and/or irrational to identify their own, real self interests and vote for the politician who comes closest to helping them. Witness the Tea Pary Movement.
    Last edited by Feanor; 12-02-2010 at 01:17 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Of course, I agree with your rant more than disagree, though the Wikileaks aren't any new revelation.

    Sadly, most Americans (and similarly Canadians) believe they live in real democracies. The truth is they are manipulated by oligarchic interests who maintain their power by buying politicians and disseminating misinformation through the media they have also bought or control.

    Prominent areas of missinformation they/we are being feed:
    • Tax reductions are the best solution to recession
    • Lower taxes & regulations are the only way to stimulate growth
    • All government intervention and proaction (except military) is "socialist"
    • Public heath care as "socialist"
    • The State of Israel must continue to get uncritical Western support
    • Strong education funding as a non-essential luxury
    • Global warming isn't real and/or isn't caused/exacerbated by human activity
    • The "(North) American Dream" is by most people in a world of globalization of business, growing population, diminishing resources, and changing climate.
    Personally I despair. The average person is too stupid, ignorant, and/or irrational to identify their own, real self interests and vote for the politician who comes closest to helping them. Witness the Tea Pary Movement.
    It really doesn't matter who one votes for. As soon as they are elected, they are part of the problem.
    Having only two parties to actual choose from is another problem as the 2 sides available do nothing but stop the others agenda and not work together to properly resolve anything.

    We don't have a democracy here, just a smokescreen. There are no politicians that represent my views and if there were, they would be squashed by the machine that wants to keep it as it is. Their interests first and not the majority of the "voters".

    Our Presidential election is a total joke and proves that we are not a true democracy. It should be one-person / one-vote. The way it is now skews the results terribly. I don't need to vote for someone else to vote for me.

    The fact is that big business runs the country and the elected officials are just puppets.

  19. #19
    RGA
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    The thing is America allows for the people to own guns - the idea was to protect themselves from their own government and not thieves. The American people need to vote and hold their representatives accountable even if it's at the barrel of a gun.

    A president can't do everything if they try. If they do try someone will shoot them.

    The difference is a government needs to be afraid of the people not the other way around which is why France was ridiculed so heavily by the Bush administration but frankly that's the model to follow - at least a better model to follow. Yes they get taxed but 95% of the people will have a MUCH higher standard of living and the top 5% will lose half their wealth. So what - if they don't like it shoot them. Let them eat cake is exactly what wealthy America is saying to the majority and look what the French did there.

    Bill Maher on France

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS0yISz6xQ

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The American people need to vote and hold their representatives accountable even if it's at the barrel of a gun.
    Thats great but when you vote one out and another one in, nothing has changed. In order to even be a politician, the pre-reqs include:
    Liar
    Cheater
    Ability to take bribes for being voted in
    Give back to the Special Interest groups that help to get you voted in and not actually help the people you are supposed to represent.

    And the further up the ladder they go, the more corrupted they become.

    Remember, most of these guys are Lawyers before they become politicians.

    You remember the joke (which is more truth than joke)

    How do you know when your Lawyer is lying?

    His lips are moving!

    Same thing goes for 99% of elected officials.

  21. #21
    Forum Regular winston's Avatar
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    its Good, its Bad!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    So, wiki leaks is getting lots of attention lately. I am all for exposing liars and cheaters for what they are but not quite at the expense of our National Security. On the other hand, all these covert back room deals, money and arms exchanges as closed door bargaining chips should be exposed.

    The US Government is so corrupt that many of them right on up to the President should really be in jail for their actions just like any normal citizen would be for the same type of actions.

    I only read a little of the list of things done but not too surprised. And people think Michael Moore is off track...HA he is so far on the money than most people want to admit outloud or even to themselves. Many people take what they get to see in the media and public eye at face value when most of it is all just a big bullcrap smokescreen. These guys are criminals all the way.

    Next up, they aim to expose all the underhanded dealings of a big bank. Again I am all for it because the US Gov was again in bed with them bailing them out and letting them do what they do to the little people.

    Any thoughts on this touchy subject?
    yes Hifi, this is a "catch 22" for Americans, as one maybe sounding unpatriotic or conceited "which ever way one sees this Wiki leaks thingy, that said, sometimes we cant believe every thing that we read "as the saying goes"!!

    but what do we learn from Robert Bear's Book "See No Evil," ?? "Syriana" the movie, "George Clooney & Matt Damon" just to name a few sign-es on the wall, and lets not forget "the "Water Gate".....
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  22. #22
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    It really doesn't matter who one votes for. As soon as they are elected, they are part of the problem.
    ....
    True, but I still think it is important and useful to identfy the least bad candidate and vote for him/her.

  23. #23
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    Remember, most of these guys are Lawyers before they become politicians.

    You remember the joke (which is more truth than joke)

    How do you know when your Lawyer is lying?

    His lips are moving!

    Same thing goes for 99% of elected officials.
    Uh . . . 'scuse me, but the number of lawyers in elected positions has been steadily in decline. The reason being is that the public has bought into the Chamber of Commerce/Karl Rove propaganda that all lawyers are bad. Used to be that lawyers were well-respected in their communities and many of them are today. In surveys the majority of people have a disfavorable opinion of lawyers in general, but when asked about their own lawyer their opinions are favorable. Propaganda causes this contradiction.

    I will give you this though, there are lawyers working for big banks, big oil, big business, etc., in-house and outside, that have sold their souls. They may be lying, cheating and scamming in board rooms but if they ever bring that crap into the court room where real lawyers work they are subject to a variety of sanctions.

  24. #24
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dean_martin
    I will give you this though, there are lawyers working for big banks, big oil, big business, etc., in-house and outside, that have sold their souls. They may be lying, cheating and scamming in board rooms but if they ever bring that crap into the court room where real lawyers work they are subject to a variety of sanctions.
    Well things are little slow around here so I thought I'd go off topic a bit....

    Dean I think your last comment is a very good observation and highlights some of the reason's people have such an unfavorable opinion of lawyers.

    A major problem IMO that exists today is that the type of lawyer you describe above is out there alot and they almost never see the inside of a courtroom. Alot of what passes for "litigation" these days is really just a negotiation between two lawyers representing a defendent and a plaintiff that only goes to court when one of the involved parties is either worried about the possibility of a large financial loss or the other party see an opportunity for a large financial gain. In between those two extremes are "verdicts" which are reached not by a jury in a court of law but the negotiation between these two lawyers. It really only represents a negotiated financial settlement that marginally involves the law. If what many would consider a frivilous lawsuit actual went to court the type of lawyers you describe might be subjected to the sanctions you mention. However our system as it exists today allows these people to operate on the edges never appearing in court and in some cases they make alot of money doing so.

    Lawyers for alot of the business you mention above operate more as legal accountants that structure processes and procedures within their prospective industries not on what is legal or illegal but on the financial exposure these processes or procedures represent from based on potential legal actions or existing regulations. Some may say that is just good "business sense" but I think it is a cynical and destructive path. The average person is affected in ways they have no idea of until something like the Wall street melt down occurs and billions are lost, lives are altered and yet it was all perfectly "legal".

    I don't think lawyers are anymore ethically challenged than other people working in other business'. (make no mistake about it- our legal system is a business) They are just more exposed than many and their reputation is a difficult one to change and has been well established in the minds of the public for some time. The Shakespeare line "First thing we do is kill all the lawyers" is often used to put down lawyers but it actually means that lawyers were considered then to be guardians at the gate defending society. I think if more lawyers went into practice with that thought their reputation can be restored.
    Last edited by thekid; 12-05-2010 at 09:15 AM.

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