Why not Universal Healthcare?

[markw]

Mark, you seriously underestimate the complexities of governing in Canada. Being 10% the size doesn't make in 1/10 the problem. There are significant cultural, regional, and federal vs. provincial issues.

For starters, you might be interested to know, (or more you aren't), that there isn't a Canadian heathcare system; there are 10 provincial heathcare systems and they are definitely not identical.

And, by that token, I think you truly underestimate the ways the tendrils of greed and corruption can become entwined in a system designed to govern well over ten times the population of Canada.

Did you read BR's post? As he pointed out, we have fifty different states, each with it's own rules governing insurance. And yet, everyone expects just one perfect answer to arrive instantly when, in fact, as it now stands, it would be against the law.

so far, this current regime isn't even getting warm...

[Feanor]

And, by that token, I think you truly underestimate the ways the tendrils of greed and corruption can become entwined in a system designed to govern well over ten times the population of Canada.

Did you read BR's post? As he pointed out, we have fifty different states, each with it's own rules governing insurance. And yet, everyone expects just one perfect answer to arrive instantly when, in fact, as it now stands, it would be against the law.

so far, this current regime isn't even getting warm...

I think I can agree with you on that one.

As heard on CNN a couple of days ago, the "public option" as omitted with Democrat support despite 65% approval by the actual population. Of course that's where Nightflier's reference to the insurance industry's funding politicians is so relevant.

As I understand it, everytime there's be a State-side proposal to limit campaign funding by source or amount, it's squelched because is supposedly offends free speech. This is obviously a crock.

[GMichael]

...the party that takes the moral high ground so often (Republicans) are so entrenched in this corruption? I mean I can understand Democrats because they want to please everybody, but Republicans, especially those on the far right, are supposed to stand up to this, no?

During the Carter-Reagan years millions of Democrats switched parties because they thought that Republicans stood for something more respectable, and many of them did. But in the Bush 2.0 years, that same party has embraced doctrinaire corporatism at the expense of competition. Big pharma, Insurance, the HMOs, and the legal vultures that surround them could always rely on centrist politicians to get ridiculously one-sided bills and measures introduced, but with the help of the far right in recent years, they gained significant momentum to get them passed. It's pretty disgusting to hear these same politicians invoke godly virtues in one breath while being bullhorns for the big corporations. Maybe they are so owned that their religious fervor is merely to assuage their guilt.

On that small detail, ClothEars has made a legitimate point. One wonders why the far right is so vehemently opposed to universal healthcare, something good ol' JC would be all for if he were alive today. I know dragging religion into this is not to everyone's liking, but aren't we talking about taking care of the sick and unfortunate? I don't see how that can be done without invoking the one biggest moral influence in our society.

I see just as much crap from both sides. Either side (pick one) says basicly the same crap about the other side. Here you are doing it again. Both sides need to clean their own house up before throwing stones at the other.
The reason that the right is opposed to the universal healthcare is becaue it's made up of mostly older people who have paid into the old system for years. They don't want it to change now.

[GMichael]

I have a simple plan...stop voting for the incumbant. Politicians need to answer to voters and not special interests. We as voters need to send a message, that if want to be re-elected you better jump through your ass for us. Of course, outlawing lobbies would also be a start, but we have too many stuffed suits in state and federal gov't that have made life long careers out of public service and the gov't was never intented to be an industry that propagates itself.

There are far too many crooks in office to even attempt to figure out who is a lesser crook than someone else. There are too many politicians that spend the majority of their terms working on the re-elections of themselves and others. A couple of elections with incumbants being bounced out on their asses would be the first wave. Far too many priviledges being doled out - lets stop those next. Why do politicians get such a greased sled? They get killer salries, let them spend Sunday evening paying bills and balancing their checkbooks. Then reforming salaries and pensions will be the next. Pensions should be earned, not a birthright.

But voting is the place to start. Its not reallistic to think everyone who can register to vote will, no more than its realistic to think voters will put down the remote and actually spend some time reading up on issues. The quickest way to change the face of Washington is to change the faces in Washington.

That may not work, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Spread the word.

[nightflier]

I see just as much crap from both sides. Either side (pick one) says basicly the same crap about the other side. Here you are doing it again. Both sides need to clean their own house up before throwing stones at the other.
The reason that the right is opposed to the universal healthcare is becaue it's made up of mostly older people who have paid into the old system for years. They don't want it to change now.

You're willfully missing the point. I said that I expect this from the center (whether right or left of the isle), but the far right is the one that claims the moral high ground and bases it on religious doctrine. Yet they are the ones most opposed to doing the proper Christian, brotherly thing. Surely there's considerably more hypocrisy in that position.

[GMichael]

You're willfully missing the point. I said that I expect this from the center (whether right or left of the isle), but the far right is the one that claims the moral high ground and bases it on religious doctrine. Yet they are the ones most opposed to doing the proper Christian, brotherly thing. Surely there's considerably more hypocrisy in that position.

I got your point. My point is that the far left claim that they are the moral high ground based on being for the individuals rights instead of for big business. Both sides are just as guilty as the other. There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

[blackraven]

Feanor, you take me all wrong. several times I have said in this post that I support universal health care and that I admire the Canadian system and that it would be a good template for our system. (but it seems to me that you cannot take any criticism about the Canadian system when I say its not perfect and has some problems. I guess I'm a liar and all the Canadian Dr's and the few Candian patients that I have taken care of who have come to the Twin Cities for treatment are all liars.) All I'm saying is that the changes that need to be made will not set well with the American public. It needs to be a slow change and it needs to be done right. And yes, we are afraid that the gov't will screw this up. Every thing that the gov't touches is Fk'd up. Social program after program has failed or not lived up to its potential. Politicians are for the most part corrupt or in bed with big business, both republicans and democrats alike. This country is so in debt because of one poor gov't decision after another. Just look at the recent events with the bail out of banks and GM. Look at our involvement in Iraq and the whole weapons of mass destruction. There are too many hands in the pot. The forefathers of this country never meant the gov't to be so intrusive in States and the private citizens business. We have a right to question our gov't. Even Obama is untrustworthy. Earlier in the year he stated that he supported a single payer system and just last week he back tracked and stated he never endorsed a single payer system. WTF is that crap. So don't criticize us for mistrusting the govt when you have not lived here and experienced it first hand on every level from the local level to the state level and the federal level. Currently most people I talk to in the Twin Cities have no confidence in our gov't to make the right decisions. And I come in contact with a lot of people. We see over 40,000 patients a year in our ER!

Just a clarification about my comments about death panels. All I said was that there will be Ethics committee's to deal with end of life care. They are in place all ready. Every one in medicine knows that the majority of the cost savings will have to come from end of life care in the last 6 months of life where 75% of medical costs are incurrred. This does not mean that we are going to kill people, it just means that unnecessary treatments and test will be curtailed if there is no chance at survival or quality of life. Get used to that thought because it is gonna happen and it needs to happen. The public has no clue as to how much money is wasted and how much more pain and suffering is caused trying to keep a terminally ill patient alive usually against their wishes.

[Feanor]

Feanor, you take me all wrong. ...

BR, I'm sorry if I have misconstrued your remarks on occassion. Certainly I have always taken you for a person of good intent.

The thing is that watching US media, Canadians like me have been higly sensitized, not to criticism of the actual weakness of the system here, but to the exagerations and misrepresentations that have been proliferated by the enemies of progress in the US.

I'm afraid that you are right the US just isn't ready to embrace a universal, single payor system. Obama understands that which is why he back-peddled on the idea. This was in aid of the bipartisanship which he also believed in. However every concilliatory gesture of cooperation has been turned to a sign of weakness. Seemingly the hatred of progressive ideas is so great to conservative Republicans that they have put their need to see Obama fail and thwart the Democrat victory ahead of the good of the country.

[blackraven]

Feanor well said and no hard feelings!

[nightflier]

I got your point. My point is that the far left claim that they are the moral high ground based on being for the individuals rights instead of for big business. Both sides are just as guilty as the other. There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

...the far left wants universal healthcare. If anything, they're living by what they preach on this issue.

Seemingly the hatred of progressive ideas is so great to conservative Republicans that they have put their need to see Obama fail and thwart the Democrat victory ahead of the good of the country.

...and ahead of their Christian virtues.

[3LB]

...the far left wants universal healthcare. If anything, they're living by what they preach on this issue.

yes...job security...how noble of them

[Feanor]

...the far left wants universal healthcare. If anything, they're living by what they preach on this issue.



...and ahead of their {the Right's} Christian virtues.

Not necessarily ahead of their Christian virtues, which as I explained a while ago, are less Christian than Pharisee.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

BR, I'm sorry if I have misconstrued your remarks on occassion. Certainly I have always taken you for a person of good intent.

The thing is that watching US media, Canadians like me have been higly sensitized, not to criticism of the actual weakness of the system here, but to the exagerations and misrepresentations that have been proliferated by the enemies of progress in the US.

Be very careful of watching too much of our media, they have an agenda of their own as well. Before I started working in audio and film sound exclusively I was a freelance field cameraman for ABC-TV, and I have watched many a reporter put a spin on a story that completely mis-represented the real picture. The biggest example of that was during the 1992 Los Angeles riots. The news tried to make it a "black" riot, when it was a riot of the have nots, versus the haves with a racial tint to it. They continuously showed images of young black youth looting stores, when I saw poor youths and adults of all races looting.

I'm afraid that you are right the US just isn't ready to embrace a universal, single payor system. Obama understands that which is why he back-peddled on the idea. This was in aid of the bipartisanship which he also believed in. However every concilliatory gesture of cooperation has been turned to a sign of weakness. Seemingly the hatred of progressive ideas is so great to conservative Republicans that they have put their need to see Obama fail and thwart the Democrat victory ahead of the good of the country.

Bingo!

I don't think it is just the progressive ideas that bother them so much, but that progressives actually got an African American to the White House. This country is changing and conservative republicans don't like it, and don't want no parts of it.

[3LB]

...and ahead of their Christian virtues.

What does religion have to do with this issue?

[blackraven]

Ok, time to lighten up a little. Here's a funny (or not so funny to some) article from an Emergency Medicine Magazine from a couple of years ago that most if not all emergency physicians can relate to and pokes fun at part of the problems we face in medicine.

IF COYOTES WERE AS BIG AS MINIVANS-

http://journals.lww.com/em-news/Full...inivans.8.aspx

[markw]

What does religion have to do with this issue?

It goes so well with the "white" and "republican" that the "brain trust" just threw it in for free for a liberal trifecta.

[blackraven]

Ok here's something else to lighten the mood- My next wife in another life!

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/2009/imag...i-ginzburg.jpg

[GMichael]

...the far left wants universal healthcare. If anything, they're living by what they preach on this issue.

I'm not seeing it that way. We must not read the same articles.

......and ahead of their Christian virtues.

You really don't have a clue do you.

I'll leave you to your preconceived notions. It is obvious that you refuse to learn.

[3-LockBox]

The biggest example of that was during the 1992 Los Angeles riots. The news tried to make it a "black" riot, when it was a riot of the have nots, versus the haves with a racial tint to it.

A racial tint? Are you referring to the riots that came after the Rodney King beating/LAPD verdict? Just a riot of the haves and have-nots, eh...that continued well beyond the point were everyone got their free TV and VCR...that's a very novel and trivial way of reflecting on an event of that magnitutde.

So all the articles and TV reports that have been written and televised on the subject of this event are completely wrong, and we should only take your word, cuz your were like there 'in the trenches and all'. And you were the only cameraman there? You were working for ABC-TV and they decided not to use your footage? And what's this got to do with healthcare again? This type of self-aggrandizing statement is becoming very typical of you. Or, to put in more uncivil, inflammatory, sanctimonious terms (i.e. your words):

"I would like to remind you that YOU are not every cameraman. Your experiences are not reflective of a broader journalist. Keep that in mind. Not everyone thinks like you do, or will agree with what you agree with. The facts and figures bare this out. Is your head so fat, and ego so big, that you think your experience mirrors everyone elses? You think you know what you are talking about, but you know a grand total of nothing. Your world is not everyones world. When you get that through your thick and empty skull, then we can move on and deal with the facts. Is your head so fat, and ego so big, that you think your experience mirrors everyone elses? You think you know what you are talking about, but you know a grand total of nothing. Your world is not everyones world. When you get that through your thick and empty skull, then we can move on and deal with the facts."

"Experience is meaningless in this particular example. That facts are the only thing relevant right now. Your experience does not equal facts. This statement shows just how damn ignorant you are. I will choose the facts over your experience any day. You jumped into this thread throwing your so called experience, and as you can see, it is worth nothing. Next time you bust into a thread throwing around your experience, make sure that experience is relevant in the context of the conversation."

I could post pages of links to support what I just typed but its old news, everyone that posts here knows what happened and doesn't need the history lesson, revisionist (yours) or otherwise. Lets stay on-topic and leave race and religion out of the discussion please.

[audio amateur]

Holy crap 268 posts!! Anything I've missed?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

A racial tint? Are you referring to the riots that came after the Rodney King beating/LAPD verdict? Just a riot of the haves and have-nots, eh...that continued well beyond the point were everyone got their free TV and VCR...that's a very novel and trivial way of reflecting on an event of that magnitutde.

Are you going to take every word I post and turn it into a fight? And please, not EVERYONE got a free VCR or TV, give me a break. The point I was trying to make was to not take everything that our media spits out, not twist this into a discussion on race and economics.

So all the articles and TV reports that have been written and televised on the subject of this event are completely wrong, and we should only take your word, cuz your were like there 'in the trenches and all'. And you were the only cameraman there? You were working for ABC-TV and they decided not to use your footage? And what's this got to do with healthcare again? This type of self-aggrandizing statement is becoming very typical of you. Or, to put in more uncivil, inflammatory, sanctimonious terms (i.e. your words):



"I would like to remind you that YOU are not every cameraman. Your experiences are not reflective of a broader journalist. Keep that in mind. Not everyone thinks like you do, or will agree with what you agree with. The facts and figures bare this out. Is your head so fat, and ego so big, that you think your experience mirrors everyone elses? You think you know what you are talking about, but you know a grand total of nothing. Your world is not everyones world. When you get that through your thick and empty skull, then we can move on and deal with the facts. Is your head so fat, and ego so big, that you think your experience mirrors everyone elses? You think you know what you are talking about, but you know a grand total of nothing. Your world is not everyones world. When you get that through your thick and empty skull, then we can move on and deal with the facts."

"Experience is meaningless in this particular example. That facts are the only thing relevant right now. Your experience does not equal facts. This statement shows just how damn ignorant you are. I will choose the facts over your experience any day. You jumped into this thread throwing your so called experience, and as you can see, it is worth nothing. Next time you bust into a thread throwing around your experience, make sure that experience is relevant in the context of the conversation."

I could post pages of links to support what I just typed but its old news, everyone that posts here knows what happened and doesn't need the history lesson, revisionist (yours) or otherwise. Lets stay on-topic and leave race and religion out of the discussion please.

You have got to be the most stupid person on this board next to pix. You took a statement I wrote on not believing everything our press writes about, and turned it into something completely different. This twist of stupidity does not deserve any more of a response than this. And please (and once again) do not tell me what to post, or how to post it. Only an idiot would believe that the 1992 riots was simply a black riot, and it was over just Rodney King. It was far larger than race, and far larger than Rodney King, that is for sure. Rodney King was just the trigger, Latasha Harlins, the growing disparity between the haves and the have nots, Koreans not hiring blacks, police abuse, and the lack of jobs in south central where all reason it occurred.

Secondly, I do not care what you think of me, so this continued crying and complaining about my arrogance, and supposed incivility does not move me one bit. The only think you accomplish by this is confirm that you are a whiney @ss baby. Please 3 IQ points or whatever your name is, press the ignore button and move on, your chasing me around trying to pick a fight at every corner is a bore.

Now back to healthcare.......

[markw]

Are you going to take every word I post and turn it into a fight? And please, not EVERYONE got a free VCR or TV, give me a break. The point I was trying to make was to not take everything that our media spits out, not twist this into a discussion on race and economics.



You have got to be the most stupid person on this board next to pix. You took a statement I wrote on not believing everything our press writes about, and turned it into something completely different. This twist of stupidity does not deserve any more of a response than this. And please (and once again) do not tell me what to post, or how to post it. Only an idiot would believe that the 1992 riots was simply a black riot, and it was over just Rodney King. It was far larger than race, and far larger than Rodney King, that is for sure. Rodney King was just the trigger, Latasha Harlins, the growing disparity between the haves and the have nots, Koreans not hiring blacks, police abuse, and the lack of jobs in south central where all reason it occurred.

Secondly, I do not care what you think of me, so this continued crying and complaining about my arrogance, and supposed incivility does not move me one bit. The only think you accomplish by this is confirm that you are a whiney @ss baby. Please 3 IQ points or whatever your name is, press the ignore button and move on, your chasing me around trying to pick a fight at every corner is a bore.

Now back to healthcare.......

Interesting, yet you can clearly see a racist aspect to opposing the health care plan.

Thanks, terrance, you've made your positions and prejudices as clear as spring water.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Ok here's something else to lighten the mood- My next wife in another life!

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/2009/imag...i-ginzburg.jpg

I wonder if she gets free health care? Maybe you could give free medical examines for poor homeless waifs like that.

[3LB]

You have got to be the most stupid person on this board next to pix. You took a statement I wrote on not believing everything our press writes about, and turned it into something completely different. This twist of stupidity does not deserve any more of a response than this. And please (and once again) do not tell me what to post, or how to post it. Only an idiot would believe that the 1992 riots was simply a black riot, and it was over just Rodney King. It was far larger than race, and far larger than Rodney King, that is for sure. Rodney King was just the trigger, Latasha Harlins, the growing disparity between the haves and the have nots, Koreans not hiring blacks, police abuse, and the lack of jobs in south central where all reason it occurred.

Secondly, I do not care what you think of me, so this continued crying and complaining about my arrogance, and supposed incivility does not move me one bit. The only think you accomplish by this is confirm that you are a whiney @ss baby. Please 3 IQ points or whatever your name is, press the ignore button and move on, your chasing me around trying to pick a fight at every corner is a bore.

Yeah yer right...my post was pretty childish...especially the middle two paragraphs in italics. No one deserves to have their opinions berated or twisted just for some self-glorification. But you have been just as guilty of everything you've accused me of in this post. Just wanted to point that out. But I'll stop now...if only JM could figure out why your moniker can't be placed on an ignore list...

Holy crap 268 posts!! Anything I've missed?

other than mine and sir Terrence the Tantrum's pissing contest...nope...unless of course you count the on topic stuff

[atomicAdam]

Holy crap 268 posts!! Anything I've missed?

Do we have healthcare reform yet?