Why not Universal Healthcare?

[blackraven]

Sorry, this is a non sequitur.

The problem in the US is not the inability but the unwillingness to provide universal healthcare to its citizens.

How can you say that population has nothing to do with this. We have a large percentage of people who are unemployed or pay very little tax due to their low income in addition to the millions of illegal immigrants (thats one of the main reasons we need universal coverage in the first place becuase of peoples inability o afford health insurance). We have a much larger aging population who uses the majority of our health care dollars (young people rarely have chronic or life threatening illnesses) We have a larger population of smokers, alcoholics, obeise people, drug abusers and violent crime that eats up a large portion of health of health care dollars as well.

And yes, we do have a population that is unwilling to pay although I think that if you took a poll that most people would be willing to pay. We all don't make $150,000 plus in this country. People in this country do believe in "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness". That was what this country was founded on. We went to war with England to get away from taxation so that we may pursue our happiness and and personal freedoms and not have to give away our hard earned money. Unfortunately there is too much lack of work ethic in this country now. Our country is what it is and its not going to change over night.

Regarding our military and cut backs. I do believe that we spend too much on defense but we have to. The US has been relegated to being the world policeman. I wonder what the world would be like without our help which I admit, doesnt always make things better. But I guess the world would be a better place if we did not bring down the Iron curtain and let Russia rule the world.

I would like nothing better for the US to stop being the world police and to cut foreign aide and take care of its own people and crumbling infrastructure.

[3LB]

The problem in the US is the unwillingness to provide universal healthcare to its illegal aliens.

everyone gets healthcare, and everyone pays into the systems from which they get healthcare

sounds like a plan

[blackraven]

Illegal aliens do get healthcare. They just show up at the ER and free and low cost clinics and get the care they need. I see them almost daily and we do not descriminate or turn them away. We do not limit what tests or treatment they receive. We have a large illegal immigrant mexican population here in the Twin Cities and at least twelve free and low cost clinics that I know of, including dental care. Now you can go to Target or Walmart and get most generic medications for $4 for a 30 day supply with refills.

[nightflier]

What is this obsession with illegal immigrants already?

This really needs to be asked: Is it really be so costly to give healthcare to illegal immigrants? I mean, what if we turned them away? I'm not even going to ask who will do those jobs we typically don't want to do ourselves, but all we need is for these immigrants all around us to spread an epidemic.

And let's be honest, is that really such a drain on our healthcare? More so than the fat paychecks of drug company CEOs, their teams of lawyers and lobbyists, and their political contributions?

Ahem, weren't we all illegal immigrants at one point or another in our history?

[blackraven]

There are 11million illegal immigrants in the US, 1/2 the population of AUS and 1/3 that of Canada. Yes, it is alot of money! Whether they are covered under universal health care or not, they will still get medical coverage one way or another. a conservative figure would be about $6000 per year per family.

600x11,000,000= 66.000.000.000

[nightflier]

Those are some very conservative figures. I've seen others, but I don't want to split hairs. The real question is between what we pay now to provide healthcare for them and what it will cost with a public option. My guess is that with universal healthcare, costs will go down for everyone, including illegal immigrants.

[GMichael]

What is this obsession with illegal immigrants already?

This really needs to be asked: Is it really be so costly to give healthcare to illegal immigrants? I mean, what if we turned them away? I'm not even going to ask who will do those jobs we typically don't want to do ourselves, but all we need is for these immigrants all around us to spread an epidemic.

And let's be honest, is that really such a drain on our healthcare? More so than the fat paychecks of drug company CEOs, their teams of lawyers and lobbyists, and their political contributions?

Ahem, weren't we all illegal immigrants at one point or another in our history?

We filled out the paperwork and became immigrants instead of illegal immigrants. Don't you see the difference?

[nightflier]

We filled out the paperwork and became immigrants instead of illegal immigrants. Don't you see the difference?

It all depends how far back in history you want to look. Many of our ancestors came here without paperwork, stayed and became citizens over time. I'm guessing that is what these "illegal" immigrants are hoping to do too. There are a lot of barriers to filing paperwork these days, not the least of which is language. To become legal, one has to have no criminal record, but because they are here "illegally" that makes this a bit hard to begin with. And have you ever considered how much we have contributed to their countries being so miserable in the first place? Perhaps we should just quietly pay the bill before too many questions get asked, and that is what this is about:

What it is costing us now to provide healthcare for them is not sustainable, so something has to be done.

[GMichael]

It all depends how far back in history you want to look. Many of our ancestors came here without paperwork, stayed and became citizens over time. I'm guessing that is what these "illegal" immigrants are hoping to do too. There are a lot of barriers to filing paperwork these days, not the least of which is language. To become legal, one has to have no criminal record, but because they are here "illegally" that makes this a bit hard to begin with. And have you ever considered how much we have contributed to their countries being so miserable in the first place? Perhaps we should just quietly pay the bill before too many questions get asked, and that is what this is about:

What it is costing us now to provide healthcare for them is not sustainable, so something has to be done.

Sorry, gonna have to call BS on this.

I've been through the process. The forms come in 8 languages. Grab a pen and start filling it out.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sorry, gonna have to call BS on this.

I've been through the process. The forms come in 8 languages. Grab a pen and start filling it out.

Oh, and take out your pocket book and get ready to pay as well. Since I have seen several of my relatives go through the process, I have to agree with you.

[GMichael]

Oh, and take out your pocket book and get ready to pay as well. Since I have seen several of my relatives go through the process, I have to agree with you.

I posted a thread about it a couple years back. It detailed all that we went through. Whenever anyone talks about amnisty, my wife throws a fit. She hates the idea of going though all of that just so someone else can just pass through without at least applying.
And it does put a strain on any healthcare system when so many don't pay at all. At least put them in the system, even if they don't shell up as much as the Jones's, or at all in some cases.

[blackraven]

We are all immigrants except for Native Americans. This country was built by immigrants who came here wanting a better life. The 1800's and first 1/2 of the 1900's was a different time. The country needed people for a work force. Now we are over populated, there are no jobs and the crime rate is astronomical. The days of the streets paved with gold are over for this country and immigrants. We cannot take care of our own and we are supposed to take all comers as many as can cross the border. Its not bad enough that we can't seem to properly educate our children so that they can get good jobs and stay off welfare. Or that we can't keep young people on welfare or young teenage girls from poverty families from having children who most likely will go on welfare and be supported by the rest of the hard working citizens of this country. I'm not against welfare for those that truly need it. But every day I see young girls who have gotten pregnant and they say they are going to go on welfare. I see generations of families who have been on welfare and it will only get worse with the majority of the immigrant population. Because these days, even with a college degree its hard to find work.

[Cloth Ears]

I have never sought to offend American sensibilities just contribute a view from afar...

Wow. The more I read here, the more it sounds like all Americans are scumbags. Past present and future. Not for nothing, but I live here. We're not as bad as we're being painted in this thread.

A little less paranoia and a little more rationality would go a long way.
Let me make myself quite clear. I do not think Americans are scumbags - quite the opposite. I simply offer my view from across the ocean as a friend on this particular topic.

The problem is we, in America. are facing demographics that are astoundingly different from the candygram and get-well card that y'all have embraced.

Your demographics are no different to ours and in fact ours are slightly worse. Our aging population is rapidly accelerating past our working population. The common theme - the aging of the Baby Boomers.

Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that under the current set of circumstances we can accomplish the same feats...

Chin up bobsticks - I think you can. After all, you put a man on the moon!

There's the danger, GM -- to reject all criticism of the US as anti-American bigotry.

Thank you Feanor - it needed to be said.

I don't see where I've done that. Maybe the danger is in thinking that anytime an American sticks up for themselves that it makes us bigots.
Nobody criticizes Americans more than Americans do. But I'm not sure why it goes unoticed.

You don't need to stick up for yourself GMichael - nobody is attacking you (from Oz anyway). The discussion is about "Why not Universal Healthcare?". There is healthy and vigorous discussion going on that can improve everyone's insight on the issue especially mine, so I am totally aware of your self criticism as evidenced in this discussion.

... but it boils down to the same pile of goo and ends where it begins...a debate over fundamental philosphy...public vs private.

This is certainly a constant theme in this discussion but the system can exist working with each other rather than against. A term used here is public/private partnership. We in Oz and our Canuck cousins have systems in place (albeit not perfect by any description) but we wouldn't be without them. If we can do it I'm sure you folks can.

The other constant theme has been the cost of the system and a perception that it will send you broke and tax you out of existence. Yet there has not been a single response to my suggestion, that by adjusting your budget priorities from the military to healthcare, you could go a long way (if not all the way) to mitigating the cost. Would this not be a valid part of the discussion?

Cheers from Oz
CE

PS

If we accept that every country is represented by its most public ambassadors (politicians, singers, movie stars, etc) then the rest of the world see the USA as being somewhere between Bill O'Reilly, K-Fed, and Oprah.

Unfortunately kexodusc, we're still trying to get over George Dubya Bush!

[02audionoob]

I have never sought to offend American sensibilities just contribute a view from afar...

Then why the comment about not being as "loud" as Americans?

I simply offer my view from across the ocean as a friend on this particular topic.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Thank you Feanor - it needed to be said.

Oh, please. Really?

we're still trying to get over George Dubya Bush

You think you are? What about us?

Broke! - heh you have a bad recession going on - we don't. Also you're already almost broke - just look at your deficit!

In one post we're broke and in another we're so wealthy we could finance a healthcare system by just skimming a little off the defense budget?

[Feanor]

....
in addition to the millions of illegal immigrants
...

Canada has similar demographics to the US in most respects.

Don't whine about illegal immigrants: they are in the US because employers want very low -wage labor -- and not have to provide a health insurance benefit.

Face up to your responsibilitiies with respect to your illegals:

1. Deport them, and/or
2. Provide them with health insurance.

[02audionoob]

Canada has similar demographics to the US in most respects.

Don't whine about illegal immigrants: they are in the US because employers want very low -wage labor -- and I might add, not have to purchase health insurance for them. They are your responsibility in very real sense.

So here's what to about illegals, (some combination of the two):

1. Deport them, and/or
2. Provide them with health insurance.

I say provide them with health insurance. I wonder what would happen to the construction industry without them. I also say give them a taxpayer ID number. I bet a large chunk of them would pay their income tax.

[Cloth Ears]

I'm sorry my previous post was a little dated - I was still responding to posts from page 7!

Well markw - you seem like a well balanced guy - a chip on each shoulder!

Only if you listen to the Canadians and Aussies. There's that classic delusion of moral superiority they suffer from.

Most uncool and untrue.

So, kiddies, run along and play nicely Mommy and daddy have adult matters to deal with about which you have no concept.

Your condescending tone and disrespect should cause you to reflect on your own delusions and ignorance.

It's a common thing on forums for canadians and aussies to try, for whatever reasons, to dig on America, the big guy that is pretty much responsible for their standard of living.

Again - deluded and ignorant.
Markw - you are embarrassing your fellow American contributors who are having a civil and intelligent dialogue without the invective.

Onto a slightly more reasonable response.

Then why the comment about not being as "loud" as Americans?

Because your voice is heard above all others in a geopolitical sense (and in a room full of other peoples as well). Don't tell me you haven't heard this description before.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

There you go again - paranoia.

It appears that some contributors to this topic are more interested in abuse than discussion and enlightenment. It also appears that some contributors have a view of the world that is so U.S. centric that it is impossible to have a rational discussion and an exchange of ideas without the overhang of paranoia and oversensitivity to international views. These rude and ignorant posters unfortunately contribute to some negative perceptions of the U.S. from abroad.

For those contributors that have been informative and civil in this discussion (with a friend), I thank you very much for your education and perspective on this issue and hope you succeed in finding an equitable system that works for all Americans.
Good luck.
CE

[blackraven]

Whose whining about illegal immigrants. They are here to stay and they fill an important role in society whether we like it or not. The problem with naturalizing them all is that they don't stop coming. Are we to keep making them citizens as they cross the border or enter illegally. There's no simple answer Feanor. The country needs tighter borders and security. Where's the money gonna come from to pay for that. Already the infrastructure of this country is crumbling. Roads, bridges and cities are falling apart and there is no money to repair them. Hell just look at Detroit.
Our schools across the country are failing and falling apart. This country is on the down hill slide while countries like China and India are up and coming.

I guess you expect us to change our way of life over night. Lets just give up on democracy and capitalism and go socialist. Lets tax the crap out of people so they can no longer afford vacations, cars, paying for their kids college, pay their mortgages and pay off their existing loans and credit cards. Lets tax the crap out of small business and put them out of business or make them pay for their employee's health insurance. Let them lay off employees to make ends meet.

People here are living on the edge. Most people can't even put enough or any money away for retirement because the cost of living is expensive and we waste our money on material things.

We cant change our way of life over night. It will have to be a gradual change. Right now Universal Health Care is being rammed down our throats. More time and thought needs to go into it. Obama is going to fast with this and already thinking about re-election. Whats the harm in taking it slow and coming up with a reasonable solution in 1-3 years. There will never be a good solution.

[markw]

You may consider it uncool, but it's most certainly true. There must be something like a Napoleon complex with you guys.

As for condescending, you either don't know what it means or you've never read your own posts. Obviously you have no idea of the meaning of the word demographics, but it looks kewl to throw it out, doesn't it?.

It's noticeable, and has been commented on by others on other sites on which I post. Buy, ya know, it's funny that it just popped up it's ugly head here since you've arrived.

And I haven't caught any flak for this line of discussion, only from differing ideas and that isn't really flak, it was simply discussion. Actually, most thik you're the dick setting fire to the small, perfect, british possessions vs the big, bad, USA discussion, er...., flame war.

I do notice that since your arrival here, (and it's funny that your only posts are here) is that tendency to dog-pile on the USA has ramped up significantly. Is that just a coincidence? I dunno know about that. Previously it was just one rancorous old man who was a site joke, but here you go, proudly flinging your poo like a monkey from a tree and drawing support from other heretofore nice, friendly, inncent, second-worlders where countries made no difference, at least until you arrived. And I'm not the only one who noticed that.

BTW, I notice you haven't disputed my facts either, but simply try to put me down for stating them. It ain't workin', mate. No apology.

So, deal with it. You're simply a rabble-rouser with really nothing to contribute to an audio forum except an ego and an attitude. You're just here for the fight.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Whose whining about illegal immigrants. They are here to stay and they fill an important role in society whether we like it or not. The problem with naturalizing them all is that they don't stop coming. Are we to keep making them citizens as they cross the border or enter illegally. There's no simple answer Feanor. The country needs tighter borders and security. Where's the money gonna come from to pay for that. Already the infrastructure of this country is crumbling. Roads, bridges and cities are falling apart and there is no money to repair them. Hell just look at Detroit.
Our schools across the country are failing and falling apart. This country is on the down hill slide while countries like China and India are up and coming.

You cannot dispute facts, so I agree with this.

I guess you expect us to change our way of life over night. Lets just give up on democracy and capitalism and go socialist. Lets tax the crap out of people so they can no longer afford vacations, cars, paying for their kids college, pay their mortgages and pay off their existing loans and credit cards. Lets tax the crap out of small business and put them out of business or make them pay for their employee's health insurance. Let them lay off employees to make ends meet.

Personally, I don't mind a little government intervention. I do not believe in a straight free market society, at least not anymore. I guess I am for a hybrid government/private kind of market instead.

You have to admit though, the average American spent way beyond our means. Everything in our society is telling us to shop, to buy buy buy. And we followed that advice and bought bought bought, until the debit brought us to our collective knees. And we don't think about where we purchase from, and if that entity supports us, or supports China (and I am speaking Walmart here). I think that we need to explore the correlation between Walmart getting bigger, and our manufacturing base getting exported off shore. We want cheaper and cheaper goods, but the irony is we have to replace it more often. This is the cycle that Walmart really likes, and what gets us into trouble. It is called the Walmart boob, and we just cannot stop suckling.

People here are living on the edge. Most people can't even put enough or any money away for retirement because the cost of living is expensive and we waste our money on material things.

Oh, and you didn't mention that our retirement went out the toilet with this last financial crises. Many saved, but most lost at least 20-40% before they knew what hit them. Even the wealthy took a hit on this one.

We cant change our way of life over night. It will have to be a gradual change. Right now Universal Health Care is being rammed down our throats. More time and thought needs to go into it. Obama is going to fast with this and already thinking about re-election. Whats the harm in taking it slow and coming up with a reasonable solution in 1-3 years. There will never be a good solution.

I don't think Obama is going too fast, I think everyone else is moving too slow. While I agree we have one time to do this right, if you wait too long, a certain party would have so demonized the subject, poisoned that atmosphere so bad, that change just would not, and could not happen. As you can see already, it took one month (August) and we had death panels, rationed care (as if we didn't already have it), we had the government pulling the plug on granny, and folks on Medicare saying keep the government out of my medicare (how is that for a ignorant comment). No, we need to put our collective heads together and get the best plan ASAP! I am for a gradual roll in of any plan, but not waiting too long to put it together.

[Cloth Ears]

BTW, I notice you haven't disputed my facts either, but simply try to put me down for stating them. It ain't workin', mate. No apology.

That's because your post contained no facts - just your (unfortunately ignorant) opinion.

I do notice that since your arrival here, (and it's funny that your only posts are here) ....

Yes I only just joined as a member and found the topic interesting as it is well covered here in our media and I have read most of the material available to me. Hence my involvement for the purpose of obtaining a deeper understanding of the issues.
Thankfully I have learned a lot from the other contributors and enjoyed the interaction, but now that I know the likes of you infest this forum I will gladly leave you to find another target for your vitriol.

Bye Bye
CE

[blackraven]

Sir T, I beg to differ about going to fast. I understand your concern about the republicans and losing momentum. I would rather go slower and have a program that works rather than one loaded with problems.

And there will be death panels, it's called the Medical Ethic's committee and there will be a national gov't run committee. Like it or not, gov't run health care will dictate to doctors and patients alike what tests and procedures will be allowed and who is eligible. This is not necessarily a bad thing. I am all for limiting tests, treatments and procedures on terminally ill patients. But a lot of people won't like it. Hell, I would welcome the gov't to protect me when a patient comes into the ER demanding unecessary antibiotics or unecessary cat scans when they bonk their head. (here's an interesting fact about cat scans- for every cat scan you have, there is a 1 in 2000 chance of developing cancer down the road. And the risk goes up with each scan. One Cat scan is the equivalent to receiving the radiation of 150-300 chest Xrays, depending upon the type of scan).

[thekid]

And there will be death panels, it's called the Medical Ethic's committee and there will be a national gov't run committee. Like it or not, gov't run health care will dictate to doctors and patients alike what tests and procedures will be allowed and who is eligible.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to mention death panels. NOTHING in the current proposals has anything even approaching what alot of irresponsible "experts" and politicians are throwing around regarding this term. The actual language in one of the proposed bills that got the most attention was actually written by a Republican as an ammendment to another piece of legislation. In a nut shell the requirment is that the patient or patients relatives will sit down with a doctor who will give them a list of ALL the treatment options. The options could be any type of additional treatment as well as possible euthanasia and will not favor any treatment option or be affected by the cost of the various options. A few nitwits have chosen this to mean that the government will be deciding on treatments for the patient. If you want to see a somewhat funny but informative discussion with the person who first coined the term "death panel" I suggest you watch these interviews

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...ccaughey-pt--1

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...ccaughey-pt--2

[Feanor]

....

I guess you expect us to change our way of life over night. Lets just give up on democracy and capitalism and go socialist. Lets tax the crap out of people so they can no longer afford vacations, cars, paying for their kids college, pay their mortgages and pay off their existing loans and credit cards. Lets tax the crap out of small business and put them out of business or make them pay for their employee's health insurance. Let them lay off employees to make ends meet.

....

This is not the choice, BR. And you know it. Thinks are complicated as you say, so why misrepresent the options so simplistically -- it tends to reinforce the know-nothing opinions of people like, say, uhmm, markw.

[Feanor]

...

And there will be death panels, it's called the Medical Ethic's committee and there will be a national gov't run committee. Like it or not, gov't run health care will dictate to doctors and patients alike what tests and procedures will be allowed and who is eligible. This is not necessarily a bad thing. ...

Indeed, it might be a great deal better than the similar, profit-driven methods of the the HMOs who deliver most privately insured healthcare in the US presently. The biggest touted virtue of the American system, "choice", is almost completely illusionary.

Sorry, but I must offer this criticism of Americans in general: they have a fear of anything run by government that can only be described as pathological. People all over the world mistrust governments but few with the intense irrationality that afflicts a very significant portion of the US population.