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  1. #126
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    So, what's your point?

    Your words:

    "These moves were supported on a largely bi-partisan basis because members of both parties saw the need to do so and wrongly or rightly acted together to pass legislation that protected Wall St under the guise of helping Joe Six-Pack"

    So, you still want to blame it totally on Bush and company, eh?

    That was before the greed came through and the bonus' went out. Likewise, the bank's way of saying thanks to all the nice taxpayers is ti hit Joe Sixpack with tons of new fees and regulation changes that cost him more every time he turns around. Of course none of this became evident until the new guy took over.

    Now that it'sapparant to all, what has he done about it? All I see is stuff where Joe will have to sacrifice his alrady stretched resources and the rich get richer. Until I see some action to help the working man, not just the rich guy, I just have to think that he's just the same old thing in a new suit. He knows which side his bread is buttered on.

    I'll tell ya what. I'll repeat and paraphrase something I said earlier, hopefully so you can better understand it: This isn't a red vs. blue issue, it's a green vs Joe Sixpack issue, and I don't see where ole' Joe has any representation, either before or now.

    So, this ain't a zoo. When you go flinging poo, you can expect it to be flung back at you.
    Last edited by markw; 09-29-2009 at 04:08 AM.

  2. #127
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    (Mike walks in and sees all the mud flinging around the room, shakes his head and turns to the door)

    Business as usual I see. Maybe next year.
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  3. #128
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloth Ears
    ...
    From the other side of the Pacific the American system seems very selfish. For a country with such a large Christian following it astounds me that you seem to ignore the bits of the Bible that relate to helping the poor and disadvantaged.
    When I have travelled in the U.S. I see something that you don't see here in OZ - beggars!
    For the richest country in the world - what is your problem with charity and chipping in to help???
    American church attendance is among the highest in the world. The area of highest church attendance is the south and lower mid-west sometimes called the "Bible Belt". Not entirely coincidentally, IMO, this area has seen a shift in the last 40 years of so stronger and stronger support for the Republican Party. In the same interval the Republican Party has become more and more doctrinaire with respect to right-wing economic ideology and conservative social ideals.

    Not to tar all devout Christians with the same brush, but a high proportion of these Bible Belt Christians are actually not: they are modern-day Pharisees. As the Biblical Pharisees, they stressing their supposed personal virtues, ("Thank you, God, that I am not as other men"), and the letter of the law over charity and concern for others. If you have any Christian background, you will recall that Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites.

  4. #129
    nightflier
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    Uh....

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    I am referring directly to the Nazi capitulation...it's the precursor to all this. What happened weeks later?
    One SOB of a hangover from all the partying?

  5. #130
    nightflier
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloth Ears
    For the richest country in the world - what is your problem with charity and chipping in to help???
    Not to beat the same drum as everyone else, but maybe an explanation is in order. To begin, Americans give more to charity than any other Western nation. The difference is that it is voluntary rather than through taxes. Ever since that infamous tea party, Americans have had a bit of a problem with taxes. (It's actually quite ironic that Americans now spend more on taxes than any other Western nation, but I digress). For better or for worse, our country is based on the fundamental belief that the individual, not the government, knows better what to do with the money that that individual earns. We believe that by doing what is best for the individual, that this then benefits society as a whole. It all started with this poignant little book called An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations.

    I think this goes a long way in explaining why we have a bit of a problem with a government-run healthcare system - it goes against every fiber of our being. Essentially, it is again one way that the government is telling us what to do with our money. Our track-record with letting the government do things with our money isn't that good of late (bailing out AIG comes to mind). For many Americans, the only reason that individualism isn't working and spreading a thousand points of light to every dark corner is because it is hampered by socialist influences. If it were just left alone, in a completely deregulated free-market environment (no taxes, no government, no military entanglements... just ref. Ron Paul, and you'll get the idea...) then the invisible hand would ensure that there would be no beggars, no sick, no abortions, no foreclosures, no medicaire crisis, no Iraq war, no hunger, no terrrists, no oil embargoes, no bogeymen, and on down the yellow brick road....

  6. #131
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloth Ears
    As an Australian who has attempted to work out the US medical system through print and online media, I remain completely confused.
    Yeah, so are we...

    Here in Oz our public health system is paid for by a tax called the 'Medicare Levy' which is 1.5% of taxable income. Everybody pays it unless you have income less than about AUS$6,000 a year. Everybody is covered. If you earn more than AUS$100,000 a year you must take out private medical insurance and if you don't you have to pay a 'Medicare Surcharge' (which ends up being more than the insurance).
    Therefore the public system only looks after people who can't afford medical insurance which keeps costs down. Your employer has nothing to do with your private medical needs or insurance. Therefore if you lose your job you don't lose your cover.
    From the other side of the Pacific the American system seems very selfish. For a country with such a large Christian following it astounds me that you seem to ignore the bits of the Bible that relate to helping the poor and disadvantaged.
    When I have travelled in the U.S. I see something that you don't see here in OZ - beggars!
    For the richest country in the world - what is your problem with charity and chipping in to help???
    While I agree with much of what you state here, Australia has it own issues that prevents it from taking the moral high ground. Your treatment of the Indigenous people would be one of them. Our beggars pale next to that.
    Sir Terrence

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  7. #132
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    American church attendance is among the highest in the world. The area of highest church attendance is the south and lower mid-west sometimes called the "Bible Belt". Not entirely coincidentally, IMO, this area has seen a shift in the last 40 years of so stronger and stronger support for the Republican Party. In the same interval the Republican Party has become more and more doctrinaire with respect to right-wing economic ideology and conservative social ideals.

    Not to tar all devout Christians with the same brush, but a high proportion of these Bible Belt Christians are actually not: they are modern-day Pharisees. As the Biblical Pharisees, they stressing their supposed personal virtues, ("Thank you, God, that I am not as other men"), and the letter of the law over charity and concern for others. If you have any Christian background, you will recall that Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites.
    $100 to Feanor for this!
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  8. #133
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    I think this goes a long way in explaining why we have a bit of a problem with a government-run healthcare system - it goes against every fiber of our being.
    Unfortunately greed goes against every fiber of my being. We have seen what the private sector has done, now it is time for some government intervention to balance this out.


    Essentially, it is again one way that the government is telling us what to do with our money. Our track-record with letting the government do things with our money isn't that good of late (bailing out AIG comes to mind).
    The government is in charge of Medicare, and I have yet to hear one senior complain about it. What I am hearing is seniors saying keep the government out of my medicare. I know I am alone in this, but I would hate to see how our economic condition would have played out if we didn't bail them out. From what I heard, it would have been an economic catastrophy.


    For many Americans, the only reason that individualism isn't working and spreading a thousand points of light to every dark corner is because it is hampered by socialist influences.
    Anyone who believes this is out of their crazy minds. It wasn't socialism that drained $33 trillion dollars out of the American economy these last two years, it was unregulated greed out of control, and a dose of entitlement to boot.


    If it were just left alone, in a completely deregulated free-market environment (no taxes, no government, no military entanglements... just ref. Ron Paul, and you'll get the idea...) then the invisible hand would ensure that there would be no beggars, no sick, no abortions, no foreclosures, no medicaire crisis, no Iraq war, no hunger, no terrrists, no oil embargoes, no bogeymen, and on down the yellow brick road....
    The name of this kool-aid had to be delusion.
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  9. #134
    nightflier
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    Whew! I was afraid everyone was wandering off to the emerald palace.

  10. #135
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Your words:

    I'll tell ya what. I'll repeat and paraphrase something I said earlier, hopefully so you can better understand it: This isn't a red vs. blue issue, it's a green vs Joe Sixpack issue, and I don't see where ole' Joe has any representation, either before or now.
    That has been my point through predominantly through this whole d@#n thread!!

    What I have been reacting to is that people who are quick to point out the shortcoming of the current administration seemingly have a short memory when it comes to the past administration or have been quoting sources with an agenda directed towards a political position rather than the issue of health care.

    There is very little difference between the GOP and Dems in regards to serving the monied interests and that is again why we are facing gridlock in D.C. These proposed health care Bills are not reform but an expansion of benefits and reallocation of existing resources. Both of these are laudable goals (I agree with alot of what Cloth Ears posted) but we also need to address cost containment. Which neither side is making a serious effort at doing. All that was done this Summer was that members of both parties have made up issues not in the Bills or ignored things that are so that they could further their political agendas.

  11. #136
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekid
    That has been my point through predominantly through this whole d@#n thread!!

    What I have been reacting to is that people who are quick to point out the shortcoming of the current administration seemingly have a short memory when it comes to the past administration or have been quoting sources with an agenda directed towards a political position rather than the issue of health care.

    There is very little difference between the GOP and Dems in regards to serving the monied interests and that is again why we are facing gridlock in D.C. These proposed health care Bills are not reform but an expansion of benefits and reallocation of existing resources. Both of these are laudable goals (I agree with alot of what Cloth Ears posted) but we also need to address cost containment. Which neither side is making a serious effort at doing. All that was done this Summer was that members of both parties have made up issues not in the Bills or ignored things that are so that they could further their political agendas.
    Please note the following from post 57, posted on the 23rd.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Like it or not, both sides are feeding off the trough and neither cares about the common guy. They say they do to get elected and fool a lot of people, but remember, this is a republic, not a democracy.

    Those in the "in crowd" have more than what they want and need and their only goal is preserving that. They won't give anything up personally but always expect their lessors to do the sacrificing.

    We've seen this with the banking and finance industry.
    Who really sacrificed anything real, aside from the lowest people on the rung, the common man who bought the houses? I do believe that those above who were instrumental in creating this mess still got their obscene bonus', no?

    Do you expect any different from the medical industry?

    If progress is to be made here it will only be when the ruling class is forced to use the same health plan as joe sixpack.

    So, unless the veiled intent of this thread was to instigate yet another pissing contest, why not concentrate on what's wrong with the health system and how to correct it.
    So perhaps now you understand why I responded like I did to your post 126, yesterday, which sure to me looks a cheap shot from out of the blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by thekid
    Not that is related to this topic but you do know the bank bailout was engineered and recommended by a GOP administration...... so it is a little ironic that thesame supporters of that Administration are screaming socialism at the current Administration when it comes to reforming health care.
    Now, for the most part you've been pretty up and up while others try to add to the piss level here by dragging religion into this, which has no bearing at all on this matter except to publicly disparage something they disagree with in order to keep up the piss count.

    That's why your post yesterday drew the response it did.

    capice?
    Last edited by markw; 09-29-2009 at 03:55 PM.

  12. #137
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    $100 to Feanor for this!
    How about a greenie?!! Some anonymous toad gave me a red one for that insight.
    Last edited by Feanor; 09-29-2009 at 04:18 PM.

  13. #138
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    American church attendance is among the highest in the world. The area of highest church attendance is the south and lower mid-west sometimes called the "Bible Belt". Not entirely coincidentally, IMO, this area has seen a shift in the last 40 years of so stronger and stronger support for the Republican Party.
    The stronghold the Republican party gained on the deep South is not related to Christians. It's the demise of the conservative Southern Democrat brought about by party realignment. The political ideology of Southerners was conservative half a century ago and still is today. It's just that those conservatives used to call themselves Democrats and now they call themselves Republicans.

    I'm not saying this to jump in the fray...just reporting on how it is. The Democrats in the Texas state government were among the most conservative politicians in the country when I was a youngster. They've been increasingly replaced by Republicans at some levels, but the politics haven't really changed. Now when there's a Democrat in a high position in Austin it's generally a liberal. Back then, that wasn't necessarily the case.

  14. #139
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    How about a greenie?!! Some anonymous toad gave me a red one for that insight.
    If I could ever figure out how to give those little chiclets I would have given you and several other members tons of them for all the help you all have given me since I stumbled into this hobby....

  15. #140
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    How about a greenie?!! Some anonymous toad gave me a red one for that insight.
    Donít feel too bad Feaner. Somebody not only gave me a red one for posting this thread, but they also called me ignorant too

    But it was well worth it as this has turned into an informative discussion thanks to all posters, views and counter views, and some that actually work in the field. And having opinions from Australia, Europe and Canada in the mix make it priceless.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Not to beat the same drum as everyone else, but maybe an explanation is in order. To begin, Americans give more to charity than any other Western nation.
    I'm not sure whether you mean charity within the U.S or foreign aid.
    If it is foreign aid then it depends on whether you count the total amount provided or the amount per capita. On a per capita basis you're actually one of the most miserly nations on the planet. If it is within the U.S. then it is clearly not enough to keep beggars off your streets.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Ever since that infamous tea party, Americans have had a bit of a problem with taxes.
    My understanding of the history of the Boston Tea Party was the objection by colonists because they believed that it violated their right to be taxed only by their own elected representatives (i.e. Government). Not taxes per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    (It's actually quite ironic that Americans now spend more on taxes than any other Western nation, but I digress).
    Not true - try living and paying taxes in any Scandinavian country! What is true is that you spend more on arms than any other nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    For many Americans, the only reason that individualism isn't working and spreading a thousand points of light to every dark corner is because it is hampered by socialist influences. If it were just left alone, in a completely deregulated free-market environment (no taxes, no government, no military entanglements... just ref. Ron Paul, and you'll get the idea...) then the invisible hand would ensure that there would be no beggars, no sick, no abortions, no foreclosures, no medicaire crisis, no Iraq war, no hunger, no terrrists, no oil embargoes, no bogeymen, and on down the yellow brick road....
    Not quite sure what you meant here - anarchy perhaps???

    The view of the individuals right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is one shared by Australians even though we don't have a declaration stating such. We like to think we are distant cousins far across the sea who have always stood by the American people in war and peace.
    So don't shoot me - I just have a hard time understanding your rejection of medical support for all Americans. I thought that was what a universal health care system was supposed to do.

    Kind regards from Oz!

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    While I agree with much of what you state here, Australia has it own issues that prevents it from taking the moral high ground. Your treatment of the Indigenous people would be one of them. Our beggars pale next to that.
    Not trying to take the moral high ground at all Terrence.
    Both Australia and America have much to be ashamed about when it comes to the treatment of our indigenous populations. I dare say an Australian Aborigine and an American Indian would have quite a lively discussion about who's colonists were the biggest land thieves and murderers! But we have tried to repair the sins of our (fore)fathers with varying degrees of success.
    And you're right, all the beggars I saw (and there were lots of them) were pale, drawn and desperate - the sort of people Jesus tried to help.

    But this is about universal health care and not historical sins. Yes, Governments (both yours and ours) suffer from inefficiency and incompetence but that should not be the excuse for not providing universal coverage. If you can find a totally private enterprise mechanism that provides universal coverage then go with that. But invariably Governments have to intervene to avoid rapacious profiteering by the medical industry which after all is one business that is destined to grow both during and after the GFC.

    Cheers from Oz.

  18. #143
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey
    Don’t feel too bad Feaner. Somebody not only gave me a red one for posting this thread, but they also called me ignorant too

    But it was well worth it as this has turned into an informative discussion thanks to all posters, views and counter views, and some that actually work in the field. And having opinions from Australia, Europe and Canada in the mix make it priceless.
    Smokes- Don't worry- it was great idea for a thread since health care is dominating the news. I can't always be posting to talk about my latest $5 pair of speakers......

  19. #144
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    The stronghold the Republican party gained on the deep South is not related to Christians. It's the demise of the conservative Southern Democrat brought about by party realignment. The political ideology of Southerners was conservative half a century ago and still is today. It's just that those conservatives used to call themselves Democrats and now they call themselves Republicans.

    ...
    You're right, of course. Christianity does not cause Republicanism.

    Both the continued religiousity of the Bible Belt and the switch from "yellow dog" Democrates to Republicans are caused by narrow-minded, self-righteous conservative values founded on the American mythology of self-reliance -- and as well on an Old Testiment-biased, Pharisaic misinterpretation of Christianity.

    The triumph of the Republican Party, for most of the 20th century a party of big business and elitists, has been to broaden its appeal to social conservatives whose inherent interests have little in common with those of the former group.

  20. #145
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloth Ears
    Cheers from Oz.
    Cloth Ears,
    I am enjoying your contributions to this thread. Your points are well made and well thought out. You seem to be able to stick to the facts and avoid some of the tangents that others on this board have a hard time avoiding. You seem like an intelligent man (I am assuming the 'man' part since I can't see you).

    Welcome to AR. I hope you stick around.

    Cheers from Canada!
    FA.

  21. #146
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    ...
    As the Biblical Pharisees, they stressing their supposed personal virtues, ("Thank you, God, that I am not as other men"), and the letter of the law over charity and concern for others. If you have any Christian background, you will recall that Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites.
    By the way, I ought to apologize to Jews and those of Jewish background on behalf of the New Testement. The New Testement gives the Pharisees, that is, the Pharisee religious faction of Biblical Palestine, a worse rep than they really deserve.

    Modern-day Judaism would not exist were it not the the Pharisee faction whose religious ideas were relatively progressive and which permited the Judaism to survive the Roman diaspora.

    However I do agree with Jesus in his condemnation of the type of persons whom he equated, a bit unjustly, with the Pharisees.

  22. #147
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    I'm confused. Is this the Islam thread or the healthcare thread? I can't see through all the bullsh!t.

  23. #148
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    I'm confused. Is this the Islam thread or the healthcare thread? I can't see through all the bullsh!t.
    Neither. It's actually a movie review.

  24. #149
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Neither. It's actually a movie review.
    Lex? Is that you buddy?
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  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by markymark
    Before pushing a mandatory plan, I think we would be better served by looking into cost containment first. Where, exactly, are the extra costs we deal with coming from? More to the point, who is profiting from them?

    Once that's been accomplished, I'll gladly back a well thought out "public" option but until that's done, all it's going to do is put more money into the pockets of those who already profit too much from the current system.
    Nail, meet head. There is a sentiment in this country (a liberal one) that reform isn't more important than getting everyone free healthcare, then we'll hammer out all the imperfections later. Implementing a national healthcare system before solving the problem you just pointed out is a recipe for disaster.

    As I pointed out before, there are already ways a person can seek public assistance for just about any need, especially medical, especially if income is a problem. Its harder for the middle-income bracket to afford medical care than it is for the lower-income bracket. This is because of the problem MarkW already described.


    On a related issue, I see that thanks to our taxpayer money, the banks are well on the way to making record profits again and the biggies will be getting huge bonus' again. Too bad they don't have to put it back when they make bad investments. They can come to us for a handout...

    This is essentially privatized profits and socialized losses. Is this any way to run a country?
    well, it might not be the best way to run a country, but if I ran my finances the same way, I'd wind up in prison.
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