Some clips from New Orleans

[Geoffcin]

Watch at your own risk;

http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId...al=1&data=null


http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId...al=1&data=null

[dean_martin]

that makes my heart heavy...

I was told by a friend that FEMA cut communications lines, but I took the news with some skepticism because my friend is an anti-government conspiracy theorist and I hadn't heard it any where else...until now...shocking.

[Geoffcin]

that makes my heart heavy...

I was told by a friend that FEMA cut communications lines, but I took the news with some skepticism because my friend is an anti-government conspiracy theorist and I hadn't heard it any where else...until now...shocking.

I had originally thought that the problem was just that FEMA was poorly managed, but it looks for all the world like they actively added to the misery and confusion. I'm a New Yorker born and bred, but to my eyes this is a much worse thing to happen to America than 9-11. The shame of this failure of our goverment will last a generation.

[Florian]

I really don't understand why they let these criminals in Washington run around. This is a extreme tragedy one of which which we had too many in the last years. We have some friends in our Apogee comunity who where struck by this storm.

-Flo

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I had originally thought that the problem was just that FEMA was poorly managed, but it looks for all the world like they actively added to the misery and confusion. I'm a New Yorker born and bred, but to my eyes this is a much worse thing to happen to America than 9-11. The shame of this failure of our goverment will last a generation.

Geoff,
I am also a born and bred New Yorker who was in New York 5 days after 9-11, and FEMA was in place and on the job before I even got there. In Florida in 2004, they were writing checks within 6 hours after each of the 4 hurricanes that hit the area. I attribute this disaster(FEMA's response) to Brown's lack of experience, and Bush's knowledge of his lack of experience. You just don't put your buddy in a job where so many people depend on you for action after a major disaster.

[piece-it pete]

Strange how the Feds are taking the brunt of the criticism.

Not that they've been perfect, far from it, but considering that this possiblility has existed in NO for decades and decades you'd think that just maybe the city and state would have been ready.

No one has talked about how... byzantine the Louisiana gov't is, or how hopelessly inept the Mayor has appeared thoughout this.

Why was the evacuation such a joke? Why were there no supplies at the stadium (where the people were TOLD to go)?

Why were the buses below (they were even gassed up)(that's 127 buses btw) not used? 10 trips to high ground = 63,000 people.

And then the fighting over control (??!). They cried for the feds and *****ed when they came in. That's a HUGE difference over a terrorist attack - there would have been no argument. At the time the city/state leaders certainly knew vast amounts of money would be pouring in, and probably figured they'd need it to help repair their (deservedly) bad reputation - I bet they'd never guessed the Pres would take the heat!!

Pete

[Florian]

Considering the fact that the international help is also not used by the Federal Goverment and that Mr.Walker went to a nice white part of the disaster after he flew over it in AirForce One only addes to his insane incompetence. The rich get richer!

6 days of nothing. The most powerfull country in the world showed that it is completely incapable of rescuing their own countrymen. Climate control with the Koyoto protocol has nothing to do with this, and we also had no problems with international terrorism until that fool became enpowered.

Man that gets me so upset. The people are suffering and those morons in washington with all the power on their hands do nothing. That is a FEDERAL problem. NewO is poor, there is a huge black poor population. They dont even have enough money to take a bus or a plane to leave. No car and many are on drugs. Those Washington morons position snipers to control the looting, they are all a bunch of fools.

If i saw my wife get swept away by tons of water and i have a dying baby in my arms you bet i will be the first one to kick down that door of the stupid wallmart.

If the Feds would have been as fast as wallmart there woulndt be this problem. I wont bow to politics and i think that a huge part of the problem is that most of the victims are black and not rich white Florida people.

-Flo

[piece-it pete]

i think that a huge part of the problem is that most of the victims are black and not rich white Florida people.
-Flo

Not black/white, but rich/poor.

Pete

[trollgirl]

...we should now put ourselves (USA) on the list of "failed nations".

Laz

[Geoffcin]

...we should now put ourselves (USA) on the list of "failed nations".

Laz

A short look at the history of nations and it's easy to see that the trigger for the collapse of a civilization is not just the stress of a disaster, but the perception of the people that the government in charge does not have the ability or answers to fix whatever problem is confronting them. Once people loose faith in the government, then the nation eventually falls. We've seen it just recently in the USSR, it's foolish to think it couldn't happen here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Strange how the Feds are taking the brunt of the criticism.

Not so strange. FEMA was created to handle diasters of this magnitude, not the local governments. FEMA botched being prepared berfore, and after this storm.

Not that they've been perfect, far from it, but considering that this possiblility has existed in NO for decades and decades you'd think that just maybe the city and state would have been ready.

Keep in mind, the army corps of engineers is in charge of the levy system. The city of NO and State of Louisiana have been asking the feds for years for money to upgrade and maintain the system. They have continually cut funds just like they are doing here in California. If we have a major earthquake in the Valley, we could have a break twice as large as NO did.

No one has talked about how... byzantine the Louisiana gov't is, or how hopelessly inept the Mayor has appeared thoughout this.

I don't think the mayor was so inept. He was VERY slow in calling a manditory evactuation. He, however called Bush early Tueday morning when the first levee gave out and asked to him to send everything he has to NO. It was clear only at that point that the storms damage was too large for the local government to handle. It would have been better for him to have called a manditory evacuation a couple of days before the storm instead of 20 hours before. That is all I really fault him for.

Why was the evacuation such a joke? Why were there no supplies at the stadium (where the people were TOLD to go)?

They actually told the citizens that were going to the deathdome to bring food, water, and blankets with them. Enough for a two day stay, not four or five though.

Why were the buses below (they were even gassed up)(that's 127 buses btw) not used? 10 trips to high ground = 63,000 people.

He did actually ask for bus drivers to take people out of NO, however no bus drivers showed up for work. They were too busy getting out of town.

And then the fighting over control (??!). They cried for the feds and *****ed when they came in. That's a HUGE difference over a terrorist attack - there would have been no argument. At the time the city/state leaders certainly knew vast amounts of money would be pouring in, and probably figured they'd need it to help repair their (deservedly) bad reputation - I bet they'd never guessed the Pres would take the heat!!

Pete, when the feds came in, they actually got in the way of the recovery effort. Walmart had several truck loads of food, water, and clothes sent in hours after the storm and the feds turn them away. Then there was this fight over a pumping station that the feds kept turning the power off to, and the locals had to keep turning it back on. Let's not mention the botched job of communication of the relief effort, or the lack of equipment in Louisiana that was in Iraq, which left the state pretty much helpless. Also the mayor talked to Bush on early Tuesday morning, and Bush sent help on Friday evening. No, Bush had this coming, and I think he got off the hook somewhat on this one.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

A short look at the history of nations and it's easy to see that the trigger for the collapse of a civilization is not just the stress of a disaster, but the perception of the people that the government in charge does not have the ability or answers to fix whatever problem is confronting them. Once people loose faith in the government, then the nation eventually falls. We've seen it just recently in the USSR, it's foolish to think it couldn't happen here.

Word on this Geoff. Somebody wise said that the health of a nation is based on how it treats the least amoung them.

[markw]

This is a clear cut case where an ounce of prevention could have prevented a ton of cure, but let's get the facts straight.

If you give your child money for new school clothes and he buys comic books, what would you do?

"By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20050907a.html

But, to say the feds weren't getting to the heart of the matter would be a misstatement.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=1&cset=true

As for the evacuation plans, well... "FEMA provides free training, education, assistance and respond in case of an emergency, but the local and state officials run their own emergency management program."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm

And, as for the evacuation itself: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3344347

Considering that nagin didn't call for a mandatory evacuation until 10:00 pm on Sunday, September 29th, I'd say that the federal government did a pretty good job of procuring 500 buses in two days, That's pretty short notice.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/3...a.refugees.ap/

Now, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Governer Blanco couldn't draft school busses from other school districts earlier ...or arrange for auditoriums, civic centers and the like within the state to be open for the "evacuees" ahead of time. After all, that IS her job. ..and Nagins too.

Instead, they did a Vinnie Babarino ("I'm so Confused!") and dropped it all into the Fed's lap.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...bilities_x.htm

Now, this cracks me up.

"There was a delay while Blanco and the White House grappled over whether to turn over law enforcement authority to the federal government, and whether all Guard troops should be put under federal control — both of which the governor resisted"

Ya can't have it both ways, honey. You two clowns blew it. Now get out of the way and let the pros do their job.

Sure, it's easy, fun and en vogus to dump on Bush, FEMA and co., but in all reality, the locals shold have done their part to evacuate their own.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This is a clear cut case where an ounce of prevention could have prevented a ton of cure, but let's get the facts straight.

If you give your child money for new school clothes and he buys comic books, what would you do?

"By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20050907a.html

But, to say the feds weren't getting to the heart of the matter would be a misstatement.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=1&cset=true

As for the evacuation plans, well... "FEMA provides free training, education, assistance and respond in case of an emergency, but the local and state officials run their own emergency management program."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm

And, as for the evacuation itself: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3344347

Considering that nagin didn't call for a mandatory evacuation until 10:00 pm on Sunday, September 29th, I'd say that the federal government did a pretty good job of procuring 500 buses in two days, That's pretty short notice.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/3...a.refugees.ap/

Now, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Governer Blanco couldn't draft school busses from other school districts earlier ...or arrange for auditoriums, civic centers and the like within the state to be open for the "evacuees" ahead of time. After all, that IS her job. ..and Nagins too.

Instead, they did a Vinnie Babarino ("I'm so Confused!") and dropped it all into the Fed's lap.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...bilities_x.htm

Now, this cracks me up.

"There was a delay while Blanco and the White House grappled over whether to turn over law enforcement authority to the federal government, and whether all Guard troops should be put under federal control — both of which the governor resisted"

Ya can't have it both ways, honey. You two clowns blew it. Now get out of the way and let the pros do their job.

Sure, it's easy, fun and en vogus to dump on Bush, FEMA and co., but in all reality, the locals shold have done their part to evacuate their own.

Mark,
You can point to all of the newspaper articles you desire, but my experience has taught me than none of the resource comes without some sort of slant to it. Even our news here has a slant to it. I just prefer to watch what I see on my monitors, that has proven to be much more enlightening than any newspaper article.

[markw]

Mark,
You can point to all of the newspaper articles you desire, but my experience has taught me than none of the resource comes without some sort of slant to it. Even our news here has a slant to it. I just prefer to watch what I see on my monitors, that has proven to be much more enlightening than any newspaper article.

So, are you saying these links are untrue?

[piece-it pete]

A short look at the history of nations and it's easy to see that the trigger for the collapse of a civilization is not just the stress of a disaster, but the perception of the people that the government in charge does not have the ability or answers to fix whatever problem is confronting them. Once people loose faith in the government, then the nation eventually falls. We've seen it just recently in the USSR, it's foolish to think it couldn't happen here.

Interesting. I've believed for some time now we are riding the crest of those before us. It seems it is only a matter of time.

On the flip side we have very large differences with most countries in history. As a democracy our gov't is a reflection of the people. So when we lose faith in the gov't we no longer trust ourselves - we will become a dictatorship in reality imho. No, I do not believe it has happened yet. But I think it's soon. "Hate crime" or similar legislation (egged on by well-meaning but ignorant people) will hand an open ticket to whoever decides what hate speech is, they will become the ruling party in a one party system, one party system = dictatorship.

Like dominos. I doubt we'll be overrun and looted by outsiders like the Romans.

Well, maybe by Canadians .

T, FEMA is the responder of last resort. I stand by my last post.

Are you aware that each levy system has its' own gov't controlling agency? If NO and LA had their act together they could have had enormous clout in getting the levies upgraded. Instead, like post-Katrina, they just worried about defending their little kingdoms.

And there wouldn't be bodies floating around - say again about the bus drivers?

Watch the rebuilding project - be ready to be amazed.

My continuing prayers to the victims (and their families) of Katrina.

Pete

[markw]

My continuing prayers to the victims (and their families) of Katrina.

Pete

I'm glad Bush stepped up to the plate and put an end to all this fingerpointing so they gcoulfd get on with what had to be done. Now is not the time for that. After things are running better for the victims is the time to objectively evaluate the string of failures, on all levels, involved here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So, are you saying these links are untrue?

Some true, some incomplete, and some slanted.

[piece-it pete]

Mark:

Well said, sir.

Pete

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

T, FEMA is the responder of last resort. I stand by my last post.

Considering that most of the lives lost were post storm, they are still to blame, and at fault for a majority of this. We'll agree to disagree.

Are you aware that each levy system has its' own gov't controlling agency? If NO and LA had their act together they could have had enormous clout in getting the levies upgraded. Instead, like post-Katrina, they just worried about defending their little kingdoms.

While they may have their own controlling agency, they still have to look for financing elsewhere. They are not self sufficient.

Waiting until later to focus and point out blame is a receipe for another diaster. Memories are short, detail gets lost, as do desires to get to the bottom of things. Time moves forward and this disaster will soon be replaced by another event. Now is the time to get to the bottom of this, unless you are a Bush supporter. In that case, later probably would work for you.

[piece-it pete]

Now is the time to get to the bottom of this, unless you are a Bush supporter. In that case, later probably would work for you.

So you agree you're being partisan? I have already said Bush is responsible for FEMA.

Why didn't we invade Afganistan on 9-12-01? It takes time to mobilize. This disaster was huge. Those folks should have been out of there!

Pete

[markw]

Some true, some incomplete, and some slanted.

We could pretty much say this about anything the media posts, true? I guess the "truth" is where one chooses to see it.

Remember, your "monitors" onbly show you select scenes that your cameramen deemed worthy of shooting, and these would be those scenes that would play on easy emotions to rile up, not unlike those black looter/white opportunist photos in your other thread that had you in an uproar except you would like to see bush as the looter and the local politicos as the opportunists.

Now is the time to get to the bottom of this, unless you are a Bush supporter. In that case, later probably would work for you..

Why would this work to the advantage of Bush supporters? This merely shows your anti Bush bias is affecting your thoughts.

It seems you would rather overlook any possibilities that there may have been more people and agencies responsible for this snafu than Bush and would rather everyone else ignored that possibility as well.

You're a little too judgmental on this. It's best to wait for the truth, the whole truth.

There's already indictments out for some of the NOLA cronies for kerfutzing around the federal FEMA funds from well before this incident. You don't see that that may well have had a big impact on what went down here?

No, first get NOLA running and then sort it out. Maybe they will find some of that missing FEMA money and apply it where it belongs, mainly on the levees.

I must say, Sir T, that I'm a little disappointed in that you seem to be letting your personal bias get in the way of rational thought on political matters brought up here lately.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

We could pretty much say this about anything the media posts, true? I guess the "truth" is where one chooses to see it.

If you pay attention to the media, this is true.

Remember, your "monitors" onbly show you select scenes that your cameramen deemed worthy of shooting, and these would be those scenes that would play on easy emotions to rile up, not unlike those black looter/white opportunist photos in your other thread that had you in an uproar except you would like to see bush as the looter and the local politicos as the opportunists.

Mark, asssumptions are both harmful and unproductive. What I saw on my monitiors were live feeds, uncut, unstaged(except the interviews) and much of it never was seen on network or cable television because it would be deemed inflammatory. How do you know what I would like to see? Do you have special gifts you haven't told us about?

Why would this work to the advantage of Bush supporters? This merely shows your anti Bush bias is affecting your thoughts.

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it whether its totally wrong, or right. The reasons why this would work for Bush supporters is fairly easy to figure out.

It seems you would rather overlook any possibilities that there may have been more people and agencies responsible for this snafu than Bush and would rather everyone else ignored that possibility as well.

Once again, you do not know what I would rather overlook or choose to see. More assumptions. I recognized that there are many layers to this cake. Several layers failed, one layer totally, and continued to make mistake after mistake.

You're a little too judgmental on this. It's best to wait for the truth, the whole truth.

Perhaps I am not judgemental enough. We have seen some truths already, and more to come. I am not one to look away when some things are fairly obvious.

There's already indictments out for some of the NOLA cronies for kerfutzing around the federal FEMA funds from well before this incident. You don't see that that may well have had a big impact on what went down here?

No. The hurricane came through on Sunday, FEMA came on friday. FEMA was disorganized, and according to 31 out of 39 FEMA departments heads, FEMA was paying more attention to terrorism and not enough to natural diasters. That's a fact, and part of what contributed to their sorry response. Bush installed one of his cronies to head FEMA, he had no experience whatsoever in handling diasters of any nature. This is the result of that kind of cronism, hundreds have died. Some things are obvious and in your face and very tough to overlook. Do you see what FEMA is doing in Florida right now? That is what they SHOULD have done in NO

No, first get NOLA running and then sort it out. Maybe they will find some of that missing FEMA money and apply it where it belongs, mainly on the levees.

Are we so stupid that we cannot do more than one thing at a time? FEMA money doesn't pay for levee's unfortunately.

I must say, Sir T, that I'm a little disappointed in that you seem to be letting your personal bias get in the way of rational thought on political matters brought up here lately.

Oh geeze, I may not get any sleep tonight, Mark is disappointed in me. I am sorry you are disappointed that I don't agree with you. I guess if I don't, then I am wrong. It seems that you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of. Your personal bias is allowing you to overlook the obvious. Your opinions of my thoughts are noted, and forgotten. Let us agree to disagree. I don't think you and I will never see eye to eye on this. I think we come from opposite sides of the political fence. I just like everyone else in this country, we are probably too polarized in our opinions to ever come to an agreement.

[Florian]

If the voters would have gotten what they voted for, America wouldnt have this sorry excuse for a president sitting tight in the white house. And no daddys who shake hands and make oil deals with the Bin Ladens. Well, the only good thing about is that he cant be reelected.This moron walks into Iraq, Afganistan is responsible for terror attacks worldwide. Leaves hundreds of thousands without home, doesnt find Bin Laden, doesnt find nuclear weapons, threatens Noth Korea, and doesnt join the rest of the worl in the Koyoto protocol and wonders about storms.... Man this guy is so bloddy stupid!!!!

-Flo

[piece-it pete]

Florian I'm assuming you voted Republican last election. Don't hold back, tell us what you REALLY think.



Blaming FEMA is shallow. Yes they screwed up. But again -

WHY WERE ALL THOSE POOR PEOPLE STILL THERE?

Where were the emergency stocks of food, water, basic medicine?

Flor that was undoubtably Bushs' fault - somehow.

T the real reason for waiting on the inquiry is simple: those who will be called before Congress are kinda busy right now.

Pete