So Flo, you learn from your mistakes, eh?

[markw]

It is questionable in terms of reaction. Mr.Bush had no respondance after the first plane hit the building. No military actions where taken and the second plane hit the tower.

It would take a good leader quite a bit of agonizing before ordering his fighters to down civilian aircraft with hundreds of lives in it. Remember, there was only a 16 minute lag before thesecond plane hit the WTC.

Would you have ordered your fighters to shoot civilian aircraft loaded with civilians that quickly?

If they suspect you to be a terrorist or involved in terrorist attacks, then yes. They will walk in your home, look into your past. They will get every single bit of information from you. You should read parts of the patriot act

Well, we wrote the patriot act to give some wiggkle room in certian situations but we also hae something here called rights, which we do try to preserve. Perhaps that's part of our problem though. Being a little too liberal. I guess if someone looks like an arab we should justthroe 'em out, eh?.

You should read parts of our constiitution!

The modern form of terrorism was created or sparked from the current Bush administration, there is no question about it.

Really? What about Iran in 1979 under the gentle Jimmy Carter? No, 9/11 was in the planning stages well before W took office. He just happened to catch the hot potato.

America is not the world police, noone ever asked them for this..

Well, we waited for Europe to do something about that messy Serbia/Herzgovena thing before the they massacred each other but it never happened. We had to step in the save them from killing each other and having the battle spread to other countries. Where was your great EU in this situation? Where was Germany for that matter?

And, if we did not have to stifle the German incursions into the rest of the world TWICE in the last century, you might have a point. YOU made us need to get strong. YOU showed us the need to be ever viligant. You also showed us that if left unchecked, some countries will take advantage of others. Did you forget the holocost? Did you read the two links I posted at the top of this thread?

Remember, after the war was over we nurtured your smoking heap of a country back to life. American money poured in there by the tons. We airdropped tons of food to feed your grandparents.

What would your country have done had it won? Would it have rebuilt England, France and all the other countried it raped and let them run themselves? ...or wouldthey all be bespeaking German now? Would all the Jews in the world be gone by now? How about the blacks? How about any others that didn't fit the Aryan ideal?

And, from some of your hard nosed ideas you spout forth here about stepping on peoples rights and shooting down your own civilians with such a cavalier attitude, I'd say that we still need to be on the lookout. It seems the master race still sees itself as such.

[Florian]

That first plane stuff is such a strech ands crap. Nobody fricken knew what the heck was going on and before anybody did,the second one hit. Now go ahead withj another story. Kinda like saying the Germans didnt know until the first million were dead. The more stories i read from you,the more i belive you,ve been gone with your tv,newspaper and radio shutdown.

It is easy to attack the weakest point. Why dont you comment on the rest? Bush knew exactly what happend, the guys bloddy sat there with a childrens book in his hands. Get the military up in the air!

[Florian]

It would take a good leader quite a bit of agonizing before ordering his fighters to down civilian aircraft with hundreds of lives in it. Remember, there was only a 16 minute lag before thesecond plane hit the WTC.

Would you have ordered your fighters to shoot civilian aircraft loaded with civilians that quickly?

Yes i would have. Hundreds vs. thousands. Its a damn tough choice, but a obvious one.

Well, we wrote the patriot act to give some wiggkle room in certian situations but we also hae something here called rights, which we do try to preserve. Perhaps that's part of our problem though. Being a little too liberal. I guess if someone looks like an arab we should justthroe 'em out, eh?.

You should read parts of our constiitution!

Well after putting all the black people on TV and showing 90% of blacks on police videos and enslaving them plus killing all the indians and putting them in reservations it doesnt matter much anymore

[quote=markw]Really? What about Iran in 1979 under the gentle Jimmy Carter? No, 9/11 was in the planning stages well before W took office. He just happened to catch the hot potato.

Well, we waited for Europe to do something about that messy Serbia/Herzgovena thing before the they massacred each other but it never happened. We had to step in the save them from killing each other and having the battle spread to other countries. Where was your great EU in this situation? Where was Germany for that matter?

Well after WWII we are not allowed to produce a military or starts wars. We are denied!

And, if we did not have to stifle the German incursions into the rest of the world TWICE in the last century, you might have a point. YOU made us need to get strong. YOU showed us the need to be ever viligant. You also showed us that if left unchecked, some countries will take advantage of others. Did you forget the holocost? Did you read the two links I posted at the top of this thread?

All i have to say to that is that this is the only defense you guys ever bring up. As soon as the US screws up, i get to hear about the Holocaust. America never learns from other mistakes and still plays the world police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...312540,00.html

emember, after the war was over we nurtured your smoking heap of a country back to life. American money poured in there by the tons. We airdropped tons of food to feed your grandparents.

Interesting. After Russia, England and the US split up germany and exploited its technology and sanctioned the crap out of it you see yourself as the shining star for helping the people? For gods sacke the US, Russia and GB destroyed everything that was here. Not only military objects but all innocent civilians too.

What would your country have done had it won? Would it have rebuilt England, France and all the other countried it raped and let them run themselves? ...or wouldthey all be bespeaking German now? Would all the Jews in the world be gone by now? How about the blacks? How about any others that didn't fit the Aryan ideal?

Dont ask me, i was not part of that time. I was born many years later! You would be speaking german by now properbly.

And, from some of your hard nosed ideas you spout forth here about stepping on peoples rights and shooting down your own civilians with such a cavalier attitude, I'd say that we still need to be on the lookout. It seems the master race still sees itself as such.

I wont even comment on that reply, that is soo incredibly stupid i dont even know what to respond to that.

[Florian]

You guys cannot differentiate between politics and people. You do not learn from the past and see yourself as the world police. All you can do is put the blame on me. I had nothing to do with the WWI or the WWII. You guys have no intelligent defense of Americas actions and just bring up the Holocaust over and over again. Until you learn that your goverment is hugely responisble for most problems because it plays world police, this discussion is over. Besides its incredibly stupid to call me part of the Master race and to judge all germans like you do. You dont even live by your own constitution. Remember the blacks, the indians, the iraq people, the german civilians, the japanees, the koreans and the poor people suffering in NewO. Dont forget the people in Afgansitan and all around the globe.

I feel sorry for the poor american soldiers who had to die in this pointless war, and fortunatly over 54% are against the war and are against Bush, this leaves some hope left.

-Flo

[Florian]

I am upset with the mistakes that the US administration does right now! What mistakes and what world changing events does germany do right now? We never threatend anyone after WWII, have a new political system since a long time. Are a major technological and economical power and work with the rest of the world. You guys wont find any blame to put on me for the current events. We learn from our past. But not the current US administration.

[piece-it pete]

Are we staying civil? Hmmm....

Back tonight or tomorrow. Hope the world doesn't stop by then!

Pete

[shokhead]

Flo,your so nuts.

[shokhead]

I am upset with the mistakes that the US administration does right now! What mistakes and what world changing events does germany do right now? We never threatend anyone after WWII, have a new political system since a long time. Are a major technological and economical power and work with the rest of the world. You guys wont find any blame to put on me for the current events. We learn from our past. But not the current US administration.

Cool! Germany can start making sure the rest of the world doesnt get nuked. Germany can loan{give} money to countless other struggling nations. Euro's,geez. How does that story go,i think it was last year when France had a heat wave. Didnt a couple of people die because France didnt do anything? I might have the story wrong. Ya see,everybodys sh$t stinks.

[piece-it pete]

Without getting personal, but your reaction is exactly this.

I disagree, so I'm arrogant? So far you've painted Germany as a fair flower of decency and goodness - but I recall hearing many rumours of German business selling, say, nuclear secrets and other devious technology to many many unsavory characters.

We buy oil from russia mostly and are in the process of buidlind a huge international pipline so that we are not dependand on american wars in the middle east.

So, if the middle east goes up in flames, and the price of a barrel of oil quadrauples or more, it doesn't effect you? Your buying oil outside of the ME doesn't effect world supply & demand?

It is questionable in terms of reaction. Mr.Bush had no respondance after the first plane hit the building. No military actions where taken and the second plane hit the tower. Also it is odd that most people did not come to work on that day that effect the big us firms. It is also highly suspect that the US was airlocked exept the one single airplane that took the Bin Laden family out of the united states. If i know that Bin Laden (and they knew) attacked and destroyed a American landmark then i do not let his family fly out while the entire country is airlocked.

It is easy to second guess decisionmakers. And letting the Sauds out was a mark of our civility - there's a good chance that they would have been subject to unbelievable harassment (at least) had they been forced to stay here. Furthermore, "US was airlocked except the one single airplane that took the Bin Laden family out of the united states" is a myth - there were limited flights in operation countywide by that time. In our Constitution it says treason "shall work no corruption of blood" - you can't blame relatives for the actions of a family member.

"Also it is odd that most people did not come to work on that day that effect the big us firms." - conspiracy theory? If 10 people couldn't keep Clintons' Oval Office affairs quiet how on earth would this be kept?

The UN does not use Saddam for oil.

Hahahahahaha.

Although I suppose you're right - their chief aim was money.

The United States did not finish the war in iraq and used Saddam for oil trades and to finance the Ladens.

We walked in the first war 'cause the ME and Europe (including Germany) (and many here) were making a big fit about "We threw him out of Kuwait" and refused to help us finish the job. I agree with you - we should have blown off world opinion and gone alone.

All we do is buy a good which in this case is oil for a price. If the price gets too high, we dont simply invade the country for the resource like the US did.

We are stealing oil from Iraq? I agree with you again, though - we ARE staying there for a long time. We're going to milk that country just like our troops in Germany have been for decades and decades.

If they suspect you to be a terrorist or involved in terrorist attacks, then yes. They will walk in your home, look into your past. They will get every single bit of information from you. You should read parts of the patriot act!

I'm with Mark here. We have more sense than to let these - child murderers - use our own laws and rights against us. And you still haven't answered my question about Germanies' anti-terrorism laws.

The modern form of terrorism was created or sparked from the current Bush administration, there is no question about it. The 9-11 attacks were to come sooner or later, but it being Walker Bush whos dad dealt with the Ladens in during the time he was dealing with the foreign affairs made this to be one strike..

Bin Laden was behind the Somolia "Blackhawk Down" problem and the attacks on the USS Cole. And the embassy attacks in Africa. His minions are currently behind the suicide attacks in Iraq - against Iraqi civilians.

And again, yes we buy resources from all over the world. But we do not invade coutrys for the resource. We do not cut deals with Iraq or Iran for that matter. The United States goverment used their current enemy in the war against the russians. They financed him and are fighting their own monster now. But only now, the poor people on this globe have to finance US wars and fear terrorism because bush said: "If you are not with us, you are with the enemy" or close to that.

Nah, you don't invade them, you just do shady back room business deals with them.

Yes, we used "Binnie and the Jets" against the USSR. As a matter of fact I would think more than one Russian smiled behind his hand when the WTC was attacked. I think it's a German term - "Real Politik".

When you say "poor people" do you mean people that are poor, or the poor, sad people? No one HAS to help us do anything. And to reiterate, Bush was REELEECTED BY A MAJORITY - after the invasion of Iraq.

A clear-thinking Country understands that the threat "If you are not with us, you are against us" as a promise toward countries that were harboring (or worse) terrorists that have PROVED their intent towards us.

There are new training camps being build for terrorists in Iraq right now! Same in Afganistan! Germany, Italy, Spain, Great Britian etc...all have to chip in. Saddam had billions of dollars of dept with germany, but we dropped it so that they can get a new start.

Do you believe we won't take care of those camps?

Allies gave of their own accord, and will not be forgotten. Even if they were pushed, cajoled, even bullied a bit, not one of those countries would have had any repercussions except financial.

Why was Saddam so in debt to you? What exactly did he buy from you - aspirin? Clothes for the poor?

I do want to thank you for the non-military support you've given the newly-free Iraqis. I did not know about that. This is no bs, those folks have a chance and you're helping, I know.

Noone ever asked us about it. The USA, as it always does just walks in and takes what they want. We live in a global times, the US is highly dependand on Asian and Europen trade and can not support its own weight. No country can, so the US better wake up and become a part of it instead of going the way alone.

We act unilaterally when we see fit. Look up the word "Sovereign". I do believe it was our backbone during the cold war (remember "no cruise missles?) that reunified Germany.

It would hurt everyone, particularly the very poor worldwide (they would starve in the millions - at least), if the trade routes crashed but we here wouldn't stave. I doubt you guys in Germany would either.

Also, you speak of 8000 men in NewO. Fact is: The repsonse was horribly slow, badly planed (not planed at all). People are still dying, the US household is in the worst crisis ever. There is no money, huge dept. increase in gas prices.

Yes, NO was a black eye, but it had NOTHING to do with our small involvements worldwide. No one is still dieing, sorry. And just wait till you meet the rebuilt NO.

Worst crisis ever? Aaaag, whatever shall I do? See below.

This President was horrible. The US is in the worst state it has ever been in. EVER!!

-Flo

What do you mean, was? You alls have to put up with him till '08!

As far as the US being in bad shape, you might want to consider our growth has been and is good, in spite of horrible disasters like 9-11, NO, etc, etc. And my Grandfather (who lived through the depression) might have something to say here, as well.

Pete

[shokhead]

I'm thinking there was no handbook on what to do when attacked on your home ground like 9/11. I'm trying to remember the last Pres to have to read that book. Look,Bush isnt great but geez,look what he's dealt with. BTW,hows Germany's growth these days?

[markw]

shadenfreude - roughly translated to mean taking glee at another's misfortune.

...and it exists only in German. Why am I not surprised?

[Resident Loser]

I am upset with the mistakes that the US administration does right now! You guys wont find any blame to put on me for the current events. We learn from our past. But not the current US administration.

...Europe is responsible for all that has developed in the Middle East...you laid the groundwork for it...it was the ongoing repression of the European Jews THROUGHOUT Europe that begat the Zionist movement in the late 19th century.

Between 1845-1914 the Jewish population in Palestine grew from around 12,000 to 85,000 as a result of immigration FROM Europe. In 1896 due to the growing anti-Semitism in Europe, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, tried to find a political solution in his book "The Jewish State". In Switzerland, 1897, the first Zionist congress issued the Basle program which promoted the colonization of Palestine.In 1906 they decided the Jewish homeland should be Palestine rather than the other choice of Argentina, partly due to the proximity of the former to Europe.

In 1914, Britain at the outbreak of WWl, promised the independence of Arab lands then under Ottoman rule including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany. In 1916, the Sykes-Picot Agreement divided the Middle East into zones of influence; Lebanon and Syria assigned to France, Jordan and Iraq to Britain. Palestine was to be internationalized. The Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917 by the British government for the establishment of Palestine as a Jewish home state. This was partly done to pre-empt a similar plan under consideration in Germany...the British wanted dominance in the region to maintain control of the Suez Canal and to curry favor with international Jewery...funny thing is, Germany's motives were somewhat similar. They thought such a move would keep the potential manpower of Russia's Jews out of the Eastern Front. Talk about politics making for strange bedfellows. Realpolitik as I recall.

At the end of the war, Jews began to migrate to Palestine, which by that time was a British mandate approved by the League of Nations. The Jewish population increased dramatically during the 1930s when large numbers of Jews fled Europe as a result of Nazi persecution. As the population increased, so did the unrest within the Arab population...who, in 1936, held a six-month general strike to protest the confiscation of land and Jewish immigration. In 1945, Arabs opposed to further Jewish influx, organized the League of Arab States...it wasn't too long after this the real fun began and continues to this day...

So while Bin Laden may hate us for our current presence in Muslim holy places and our support of Israel, it's Europe that had sown the seeds for discontent long before we ever entered the picture.

Again, I'd like to point out that prior to1962, when we sold Hawk missles(supposedly defensive weapons) to them, the U. S. state department considered Israel a Zionist state as a result of their overstepping the bounds of the UN mandate that created Israel in 1948. This only transpired as a cold-war counter to the USSRs support of Egypt as a step for balance in the region in an attempt to keep the Suez canal open for international(particularly European) commerce.

So before you run amuck and continue to bellow about our contributions to global tensions, I'd suggest you take a good, long, hard look at your complicity in the situation.

jimHJJ(...you opened the can of worms, now we gotta' try to clean it up in our own sloppy style...)