So Flo, you learn from your mistakes, eh?

[piece-it pete]

PAT,

My apologies if my last post was unclear.

If anything shows the difference between cultures....

I worked closely with a French Canadian company at my last job for 10 years. I got to know their purchasing agent quite well. At first I thought he was a tough guy, a jerk. I learned that in reality he was a great guy with an unbelievable sense of humor. Our two cultures just had such a different way of communicating it! It took over two years for me to figure it out.

I was complimenting Canada, but in a humorous way. Look at my avatar, read the post again, what it actually said.

1) Canada doesn't come to the US for handouts.

2) You helped us during 9-11.

3) Gander is in the middle of nowhere (I've been through that airport).

The Canadian bum wasn't French, btw, and was in reality a super nice guy (smart to boot, and looked like a Red Green type guy) that had chemical dependancy issues.

I, too, je suis fier d'être Américain.

Pete

[PAT.P]

Jeebers, I'd rather argue about jitter than try to argue the supremacy of one nation over any other here.

Some people think that the supremacy of a nation is the power they have for starting a war on somebody else turf .The Canadian were not there to help and we get cut down.If it would of been on your soil we would of been there because we are neighbour .You had a disaster in NewOrleans and we are helping and know Rita is coming your way and im sure the Canadian Goverment will be there to send some kind of help.

[Florian]

You'all know, I think this applies to Flo too. I think it's important for our foriegn friends to know that we here in the US get tired of being blamed for all the worlds' troubles. On the flip side, we can be VERY arrogant without even realising it. Pete

I know that the germans before me cost many people harm and i know of my own mistakes. There is no country in this world that is good and a blessing. But American politicians have done many horrible things too in the past and are doing it right now. All i ever wanted to say is that America should learn from the mistakes the rest of the world has done before america even became a uperpower and learn. Europe is a very important part for america and we support america hugely in trade, technology, food and support in iraq and all around the globe. I like all people, no matter where they are from or what religion or color their skin is. I just get too emotinal sometimes but i am not the only one who has that fault.

-Flo

[PAT.P]

piece-it pete My ancester were from England landed in the United State and from there some came to Canada (Montreal).This is where the french in us started ,they married french woman and raised the kids in french.

[shokhead]

I missed that Irag support. Remind me.

[Florian]

The chemical research vehicles "Spürfuchs" are used right now in Iraq and came as a support to the US in Afganistan and also Iraq. Part of medical supplys and food packages are also launched directly from germany as a aid to america. The Airfield Rammstein is a mayor help for the air traffic to Iraq directly here from germany. The french denied that! We only said that we will not support a war that was began without the Nato aproval. I agree with that, but we helped with no military efforts.

-Flo

[Florian]

May I also add that our military (what little there is) is in Afganistan right now supporting america in the rebuilding of the country which we never attacked in the first place. Our medical and food supplys where in the United States after NewO disaster before the american goverment dispatched the relief help! We are a strong ally and help our american friends, but simply dont apreciate it when we are being called "old europe" when we disagree together with the rest of the world (exept england) on a war in iraq.

-Flo

[piece-it pete]

Flo, where's you get that post? Are you making up statements by me??





Nah, once again the post came up BEFORE the last one I posted (how does that happen?), I deleted it and was going to move it ahead, but you must've responded to it in the 10 seconds it was up.

On Iraq, like me and many of my own countrymen, we will have to agree to disagree.

One thing that has been forgotten by most is that SOMEBODY will always be on the top of the heap. The US isn't perfect, as you mentioned no country is, but looking over the current international scene at the viable alternatives, I think the world is lucky it's us. Consider the UN, the WTO, as well as free trade overall plus keeping world shipping lanes open (which is unbelievably expensive).

Hubris? Perhaps. I think there's some hard-headed truth in there too. I once heard the statement: "It's tough to share a bathtub with an elephant, even if the elephant is TRYING to be nice".

Pete

[piece-it pete]

Oh and I wanted to mention that I see disagreements with countries like France, Canda, Great Britain and Germany FAMILY fights.

Pete

[kexodusc]

Oh and I wanted to mention that I see disagreements with countries like France, Canda, Great Britain and Germany FAMILY fights.

Pete

Are you kidding me? If these disputes were like my family's fights the sky would already be gray (or grey, god I hate dual-citizenship!) and we'd all be glowing in the dark. Most of it is just political grandstanding for the press at home.

[kexodusc]

plus keeping world shipping lanes open (which is unbelievably expensive).

I think the reality here is that we are an incredibly dependant nation compared to some, both for the natural resources we don't have but consume at incredible rates, and on the manufacturing abilities of others. Some countries are very resource rich and would be very self-sufficient if isolated. I'd argue nobody else relies on those shipping lanes as much as the USA so it's only natural we foot the bill. You've got to admit too, if you're a pirate or terrorist, are you gonna target Finland's trade vessels, or the USA's?

Though I'd expect China to have a vested interest in the near future to protect their exports, which could create a very interesting situation...Not to mention Russia's economy is starting to grow at an alarming rate (and will continue to do so once an entire generation under free-market enters the business world).
Fear not, I think help is on the way in the not too distant future.

[shokhead]

We didnt attack a nation,we removed an AHole in SH.

[piece-it pete]

kex I agree it's a darn good thing MY family doesn't have nukes!

Keeping the roads open, well, it is "enlightened self interest". The world benifits. As a matter of fact the history books will call this age something like "Pax Americana".

This is true. False modesty is not a virture.

Our INCREASE in armed services spending after 9-11 was larger than the the total budgets of the 4 next largest militaries - combined. This is not due strictly to Iraq, consider we took care of Germany AND Japan at the same time, and our economy was much smaller then.

Russia and China are run by cartels. Time will tell if they can keep it together imo.

It was a Canadian who pointed out to me that the rest of the world would have far less money to spend on social services if they had to pay the true cost of their own security. As a matter of fact my one big beef with Canada right now isn't Iraq - it's the fact they will not contribute to the missle shield being designed and built (and paid for) by the US (that will also protect Canada).

Pete

[kexodusc]

.

It was a Canadian who pointed out to me that the rest of the world would have far less money to spend on social services if they had to pay the true cost of their own security. As a matter of fact my one big beef with Canada right now isn't Iraq - it's the fact they will not contribute to the missle shield being designed and built (and paid for) by the US (that will also protect Canada).

Pete

This is an interesting comment...Canada has committed a great deal of funds towards this project, continues to fund NORAD and has given the USA permission to use its airspace for self defense purposes.
I think the truth, and what the media (and even politicians) are reporting on this issue has become very distorted.
Politically, with a minority government for the time being, it is difficult for the governing party to openly declare endorsement. They didn't in the time frame president Bush demanded. And consequently, those bold demands that ignored the requests for an extension on the question (to such a point in time when it would have been an easy political sell) probably ticked off the government a bit. Make no mistake about it though. Canada is contributing to the project whether directly or indirectly. The opposition left wing party in Canada was very upset, and very quick to reveal this as argument against the the governing party earlier this year. Oddly enough, despite the supposed public opposition, I have yet to meet one Canadian that doesn't wholly endorse the project.

By next spring, there will be another federal election in Canada which will go one of two ways:
1) the current government will once again win a majority (most likely) and then continue with openly endorsing the project
2) the opposition conservatives will win the election and openly endorse the project.

I wouldn't worry too much about this.

[Florian]

Not to start anything but my father is devloping parts of that "missile shield" and he said that eventough the goverment knows that it will not work they still dumb all the money into it. He works in the development section of SBS Technologies. They also developed parts of the Mars Rover here in germany!

Just a quick note as to why america did start the war and why it was unjust. After the 9-11 Attacks which are highly suspect on their own the world agreed that Bin Laden was hiding in Afganistan. The whole world agreed to move in and attack that country. Bin Laden was never found. America did attack Iraq before (Bush Senior) but they stopped the attack and instead of removing him, used him. They used him for oil and made deals with the Ladens also. They trained the Bin Laden to fight against the russians in Afganistan. They supplied him with weapons, and by buying oil from them he actually made them strong.

So what you have now, is that Bin Laden was cut loose from america after they used him and he got pissed. Saddam was sitting there in Iraq and would have died sooner or later. But after the 9-11 attacks Bush only had to call it the fight against Terrorism to move and finish the job his father failed to do and moved into Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, America could not deliver any proof of nuclear weapons or show the NATO that the Iraq was a threat at all! And thats why europe did not agree to join the war.

Coming back to the 9-11, the reason why america got such a shock from it is because they thaught nothing can touch them at home. America never had terrorism on their own land. Germany, France, Italy and England had attacks and Terrorism on their own soil before, this was nothing new. Bush used that shock to create such things as Homeland security which gives him the power to look into anybodys home, files etc. on the basis that they have something to do with Terrorism. This is not only highly wrong, but the freedom that americans worship so much is fading fast compared to other nations around the globe.

Yes, we are against terrorism. But that "modern" terrorism has been created by that superpower and now we see attacks such as the ones on Great Britian and Spain. Those countrys entered the war with Iraq, Germany didnt i am very glad we didint. The was unjust, even if they removed an a-hole!

America is not the world police, noone ever asked them for this.

-Flo

[Florian]

I know that 9-11 was not the first, but it was the largest as in "100% damage". This was and is considered the first major hit from a foreign terrorism group on american soil.

Flo

[GMichael]

Coming back to the 9-11, the reason why america got such a shock from it is because they thaught nothing can touch them at home. America never had terrorism on their own land. Germany, France, Italy and England had attacks and Terrorism on their own soil before, this was nothing new. Bush used that shock to create such things as Homeland security which gives him the power to look into anybodys home, files etc. on the basis that they have something to do with Terrorism. This is not highly wrong, but the freedom that americans worship so much is fading fast compared to other nations around the globe.


-Flo

9-11 was not the first Terrorism on our soil. In fact it wasn't even the first attack on the towers.

[Florian]

9-11 was not the first Terrorism on our soil. In fact it wasn't even the first attack on the towers.

I know that 9-11 was not the first, but it was the largest as in "100% damage". This was and is considered the first major hit from a foreign terrorism group on american soil.

Flo

[PAT.P]

We didnt attack a nation,we removed an AHole in SH.

If it was as simple as this .Children and woman were killed ,cities were destroyed ,your soldiers are killed even when as we speak.Yes you removed him ,know your spending $$$ to rebuild and want the rest of the world to chip- in to rebuilt what you've broken.It took alot of time after 9/11 to start your war and it was probably to satisfied your people.The US knew they were a target way before 9/11 and had info on it but did'nt re-act .They were saying nobody would try anything on our country .Your army is powerfull I agree,but now you have a price to pay.The fear that it could happen again and again.You have money for wars and all the best arms for starting one.Dissaster of natural cause hits NewOrleans and both arms are tied behind their backs instead of being there before it hit.Hope their there helping your people before Rita hits them.Did they learn will see.

[piece-it pete]

kex thank you for the input.

I am glad to hear that we are getting more support than is commonly known from Canada.

One problem is that there is so little "real" international news. The best sources I've found, the BBC and the WSJ, still tend (!) to an editorial slant and in the case of the BBC, too short, and the WSJ, too much! (who can read a whole paper daily anymore??)

That plus the political grandstanding by various gov'ts you have mentioned.

Flo the moon shot was considered impossible. So far the best bet has been that technology grows faster than estimated.

A couple of questions and comments:

How is the wtc attack "questionable"?

I thought it was the UN using Saddam for oil. As far as cutting deals with the Bin Laden family, well that's like saying we cut deals with the Sauds.

Do you really believe that the Dept. of Homeland Secrurity can just walk into my house?? I think you're forgetting how heavily armed we (the people) are over here. And how many years can your police hold a terrorism suspect with NO charges?

We created terrorism? Doesn't Germany buy oil too? How are we responsible for the Chechen elementary school attack in Russia?

Pete

[piece-it pete]

Dissaster of natural cause hits NewOrleans and both arms are tied behind their backs instead of being there before it hit.Hope their there helping your people before Rita hits them.Did they learn will see.

If you think the minor action in Iraq creates issues/shortages in the US you are mistaken and really don't grasp the size of this country/economy. There were over 8,000 National Guard troops in Louisiana alone when Katrina hit.

Pete

[kexodusc]

kex thank you for the input.

I am glad to hear that we are getting more support than is commonly known from Canada.

One problem is that there is so little "real" international news. The best sources I've found, the BBC and the WSJ, still tend (!) to an editorial slant and in the case of the BBC, too short, and the WSJ, too much! (who can read a whole paper daily anymore??)

That plus the political grandstanding by various gov'ts you have mentioned.

Pete,
I think Canada is just bitter that George W. snubbed them by not mentioning them in 9-11 speech...he had a prior history of being relatively insenstitive to Canadians. Sometimes they take things too personally maybe. Who doesn't at times?
Then the last Canadian Prime Minister decided to make George W his personal PR tool.

His father was quite popular both in Canada with Canadian Prime Ministers.

[piece-it pete]

His father was quite popular both in Canada with Canadian Prime Ministers.

I'm afriad Jr. isn't as... diplomatically adept as Sr.

I didn't know Sr. was popular up there, but not too surprised, as it seemed he was very plugged in to the "New World Order". He must have been horrified when he tossed his cookies on that Japanese minister!

Pete

[Florian]

Without getting personal, but your reaction is exactly this.

On the flip side, we can be VERY arrogant without even realising it.

We buy oil from russia mostly and are in the process of buidlind a huge international pipline so that we are not dependand on american wars in the middle east.

How is the wtc attack "questionable"?

It is questionable in terms of reaction. Mr.Bush had no respondance after the first plane hit the building. No military actions where taken and the second plane hit the tower. Also it is odd that most people did not come to work on that day that effect the big us firms. It is also highly suspect that the US was airlocked exept the one single airplane that took the Bin Laden family out of the united states. If i know that Bin Laden (and they knew) attacked and destroyed a American landmark then i do not let his family fly out while the entire country is airlocked.

I thought it was the UN using Saddam for oil.

The UN does not use Saddam for oil. The United States did not finish the war in iraq and used Saddam for oil trades and to finance the Ladens.

All we do is buy a good which in this case is oil for a price. If the price gets too high, we dont simply invade the country for the resource like the US did.

Do you really believe that the Dept. of Homeland Secrurity can just walk into my house??

If they suspect you to be a terrorist or involved in terrorist attacks, then yes. They will walk in your home, look into your past. They will get every single bit of information from you. You should read parts of the patriot act!

We created terrorism?

The modern form of terrorism was created or sparked from the current Bush administration, there is no question about it. The 9-11 attacks were to come sooner or later, but it being Walker Bush whos dad dealt with the Ladens in during the time he was dealing with the foreign affairs made this to be one strike.

And again, yes we buy resources from all over the world. But we do not invade coutrys for the resource. We do not cut deals with Iraq or Iran for that matter. The United States goverment used their current enemy in the war against the russians. They financed him and are fighting their own monster now. But only now, the poor people on this globe have to finance US wars and fear terrorism because bush said: "If you are not with us, you are with the enemy" or close to that.

There are new training camps being build for terrorists in Iraq right now! Same in Afganistan! Germany, Italy, Spain, Great Britian etc...all have to chip in. Saddam had billions of dollars of dept with germany, but we dropped it so that they can get a new start.

Noone ever asked us about it. The USA, as it always does just walks in and takes what they want. We live in a global times, the US is highly dependand on Asian and Europen trade and can not support its own weight. No country can, so the US better wake up and become a part of it instead of going the way alone.

Also, you speak of 8000 men in NewO. Fact is: The repsonse was horribly slow, badly planed (not planed at all). People are still dying, the US household is in the worst crisis ever. There is no money, huge dept. increase in gas prices.

This President was horrible. The US is in the worst state it has ever been in. EVER!!

-Flo

[shokhead]

That first plane stuff is such a strech ands crap. Nobody fricken knew what the heck was going on and before anybody did,the second one hit. Now go ahead withj another story. Dumb by me so i took it off myself.