Let's talk about gas.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

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Stop rubbin your wings together and come back here, I ain't done witcha yet I just want to bite that azz just one more time

[GMichael]

Stop rubbin your wings together and come back here, I ain't done witcha yet I just want to bite that azz just one more time

What's this? One stinkin' week without your lady and you're already trying to bite Rich's azz?

[Feanor]

What's this? One stinkin' week without your lady and you're already trying to bite Rich's azz?

Too bad I don't give green chicklets for repartee because if I did, you'd get one that.

[GMichael]

Too bad I don't give green chicklets for repartee:

Then how will I ever earn one from you? Repartee is all I have.

[trollgirl]

Wow! I was beginning to think AR had devolved into a small group talking about old times, but this is the kind of free-wheeling discussion I remember!

However, in four pages of threads, I notice that no one has gotten to the crux of the matter. Of course I am speaking of [so called] peak oil. The whole scarcity myth and price structure illusion is propped up by the idea that petroleum is a non-renewable natural resource made from the decomposed bodies of living things which were buried aeons ago. Peak oil presupposes that "when it's gone, it's gone, so we have to charge oodles for it now."

What a bunch of crap! Our lap-dog media keeps us so ill/mis-informed here in the West, that very few are aware that the Russians proved DECADES ago that oil is abiotic and is being constantly produced deep in the earth. Far under depleted oil fields lie the really big deposits, mind-boggling deposits. The Russians simply have the technology to get down there, and have found oil in places where Americans said, "No oil here."

Oil is plentiful, and should be cheap. Greed and Corruption are the twin causes of high gas prices. Voting Democratic will not help, as they serve the same masters as the knuckle-dragging Republicans.

Laz

[bobsticks]

Oil is plentiful, and should be cheap. Greed and Corruption are the twin causes of high gas prices. Voting Democratic will not help, as they serve the same masters as the knuckle-dragging Republicans.

Laz

True so true, so it comes down to "Do I want to vote for a party that takes all my money away and gives it to people who don't want to work?" or "Do I want to vote for a Party that takes all my money away and gives it to the Military Industrial Complex?"

[GMichael]

True so true, so it comes down to "Do I want to vote for a party that takes all my money away and gives it to people who don't want to work?" or "Do I want to vote for a Party that takes all my money away and gives it to the Military Industrial Complex?"

Or do you want to vote for a person instead of a party? Not that you can get one without the other.

[thekid]

Well I fast forwarded past the politics so if this point was mentioned somewhere in there forgive me.......

I think with China and India entering the picture we will not be able to drill faster than we consume and with greater demand what is the incentive for the producers to increase production? The bottom line is the bottom dollar, until there are enough competing energy sources oil producers will be able to manipulate the market price for oil.

As to the more specific fallacy that if we increase drilling in the USA we will lower our gas prices. The fact is that the companies that do the drilling are large multinational companies that sell their product on the international market. Do you think the fact that the oil is drilled in the US or Iraq affects the market price? Look at Alaska, it produces large quantities of oil every day and guess which state has the highest gas prices-Alaska.
I know there are other factors that cause that to occurr but my point is that the market determines the price of oil not the location. Unless the US decided to nationalize its oil and sell it below market prices domestic oil production will not affect what we pay at the pump.

If you want cheaper gas right away look at how it is traded as a commodity and how the price is affected by market speculators. A car bomb goes off in Baghdad and the price of oil goes up in minutes because traders on Wall Street panic. Change that behavior and you can have cheaper gas tomorrow. Try to drill your way out of the problem and all you do is maintain the status quo and make a small sector of the economy even wealthier.

[bobsticks]

Or do you want to vote for a person instead of a party? Not that you can get one without the other.

No you can't and therein lies a big part of the problem because a single person can accomplish nothing in Washington. Back in the day that freakish, little American Kim ll Jung named Ross Perot talked a good game but everyone knew that each and every policy initiative he undertook would be undercut by both parties.

I'm a Republican mostly due to my tax bracket and most of the time it embarasses me. Can you imagine Cheney and the Haliburton Boys in a room with the scions of the American Far Right? That group of greedheads and bizoids with the equally disgusting rabble of fatass, Rotarian gassbags...

"I think we need to focus on family values and the negative effects of abortion"
"Uh, yeah, agree with domestic focus" (thinks "God, can we eliminate cap-gains on my stock options?")
"Well, it's not just domestic. We need to spread the good word of Jesus Christ throughout the whole wide world". (All republican women sound like Edie McLurg in my mind)
"Absolutely, ma'am. I'll call my college bud Nicky Chabraja. He can help spread the word in some of the areas with a more divergent ideological entrenchment." (picks up phone,calls stockbroker "Yeah, Stu, General Dynamics, BUY,BUY,BUY!!")


Throughout the Bush2 administration I have had this nagging feeling that I could be persuaded to vote for an emocrat if they would just find someone leaning at least a bit to the center of their platform. Sadly, I must report that the Democratic National Party is constituted of the dumbest individuals on the face of the earth. This election should have been so far in the bag for them at this point it's ridiculous. I have no doubt that at some point there ws an actual discussion about putting that walking nose Barbara Streisand on the ticket. Clueless.

If I hear one more attack ad about how the rich don't pay their fair share I swear I'll find some obscure monarchist party and vote for it becuase the Dems don't mean that, they mean the middle and upper-middle class. I was standing in line behind two ladies at the grocery store--one dressed to the nines and ebullient with her new hairdo and Gucci bag, the other in scrubs, tired, quiet and impatient. The first drags a heaping cart of ribs and steaks and shrimp and food clearly intended for a cookout or celebration of some sort. She prattle on while the items were laboriusly checked out and bagged and, at the end, turned and said something to Scrubs while handing the girl her Electronic Debit Card (state welfare). Scrub Lady's response was, "You know what, I'm a nurse and you eat better than I do. Shut up and get out of my way". I'd have added "So I can get some sleep and get up and go to work again to pay for your dinner" but basically she encapsulated it all. That's real.

So yeah, G, I'm not a big fan of the two-party system and all the polarizing, reactionary extremism that it entails. We need a third party who's platform is "You, the citizen, STFU and go to work. When you get home do what you want 'cause it's none of our business. Us? We're gonna build some roads and make sure the water is hot. See Ya.". It's that simple.


edit: As I read to edit this one thought strikes me, I went to the advance opening of CLUB 45 last night and, therefore, may just be cranky and hungover.

[Rich-n-Texas]

If you want cheaper gas right away look at how it is traded as a commodity and how the price is affected by market speculators. A car bomb goes off in Baghdad and the price of oil goes up in minutes because traders on Wall Street panic. Change that behavior and you can have cheaper gas tomorrow. Try to drill your way out of the problem and all you do is maintain the status quo and make a small sector of the economy even wealthier.

I agree with this via this post...

In my opinion, one reason why gas prices jump the way they do is because of these Futures speculators who say things like... "recent threats against Nigeria will likely cause prices to increase." I mean, who ARE these people and why does the market react negatively every time this babble surfaces? It's a joke.

... which is post #18 in this thread.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Is your name Feanor?

No, but I'd be happy to change it if you think it will help.

I was kidding GMichael. No need to have a fit over it.

[GMichael]

I was kidding GMichael. No need to have a fit over it.

I'll do my best. But I'll have to go back and re-read. I don't remember having a fit.

[GMichael]

No you can't and therein lies a big part of the problem because a single person can accomplish nothing in Washington. Back in the day that freakish, little American Kim ll Jung named Ross Perot talked a good game but everyone knew that each and every policy initiative he undertook would be undercut by both parties.

I'm a Republican mostly due to my tax bracket and most of the time it embarasses me. Can you imagine Cheney and the Haliburton Boys in a room with the scions of the American Far Right? That group of greedheads and bizoids with the equally disgusting rabble of fatass, Rotarian gassbags...

"I think we need to focus on family values and the negative effects of abortion"
"Uh, yeah, agree with domestic focus" (thinks "God, can we eliminate cap-gains on my stock options?")
"Well, it's not just domestic. We need to spread the good word of Jesus Christ throughout the whole wide world". (All republican women sound like Edie McLurg in my mind)
"Absolutely, ma'am. I'll call my college bud Nicky Chabraja. He can help spread the word in some of the areas with a more divergent ideological entrenchment." (picks up phone,calls stockbroker "Yeah, Stu, General Dynamics, BUY,BUY,BUY!!")


Throughout the Bush2 administration I have had this nagging feeling that I could be persuaded to vote for an emocrat if they would just find someone leaning at least a bit to the center of their platform. Sadly, I must report that the Democratic National Party is constituted of the dumbest individuals on the face of the earth. This election should have been so far in the bag for them at this point it's ridiculous. I have no doubt that at some point there ws an actual discussion about putting that walking nose Barbara Streisand on the ticket. Clueless.

If I hear one more attack ad about how the rich don't pay their fair share I swear I'll find some obscure monarchist party and vote for it becuase the Dems don't mean that, they mean the middle and upper-middle class. I was standing in line behind two ladies at the grocery store--one dressed to the nines and ebullient with her new hairdo and Gucci bag, the other in scrubs, tired, quiet and impatient. The first drags a heaping cart of ribs and steaks and shrimp and food clearly intended for a cookout or celebration of some sort. She prattle on while the items were laboriusly checked out and bagged and, at the end, turned and said something to Scrubs while handing the girl her Electronic Debit Card (state welfare). Scrub Lady's response was, "You know what, I'm a nurse and you eat better than I do. Shut up and get out of my way". I'd have added "So I can get some sleep and get up and go to work again to pay for your dinner" but basically she encapsulated it all. That's real.

So yeah, G, I'm not a big fan of the two-party system and all the polarizing, reactionary extremism that it entails. We need a third party who's platform is "You, the citizen, STFU and go to work. When you get home do what you want 'cause it's none of our business. Us? We're gonna build some roads and make sure the water is hot. See Ya.". It's that simple.


edit: As I read to edit this one thought strikes me, I went to the advance opening of CLUB 45 last night and, therefore, may just be cranky and hungover.

Or maybe you're just saying what needed saying.
I vote for Styx.
Vote for Styx!

[Feanor]

...

Oil is plentiful, and should be cheap. Greed and Corruption are the twin causes of high gas prices. Voting Democratic will not help, as they serve the same masters as the knuckle-dragging Republicans.

Laz

What the United States needs is a genuine left-wing party. What they have is right-wing + conservative/populist party, the Republican, and centrist + quasi-"liberal" party, the Democratic.

I find it sad that the American myth that government programs can only help the shiftless and undeserving remains so persistent. It might change as the U.S.' position of leading economy erodes and American professionals and small-scale entrepreneurs find their livelihoods and imagined self-reliance shrinking along with those of the working people on whom they depend for their status.

The larger corporations and the super-rich, (both increasingly non-American), are bent on exporting good U.S. jobs as quickly as possible to foreign countries where labor costs, worker health & safely, and environmental safeguards are all minimal. The Republicans have had absolutely no response to the trend except to exacerbate it with deficit budgets to finance foreign wars that decreased national security rather than increased it, and their tried-and-futile "bribe the rich" taxation policies.

The American middle class really needs to take off it blinkers and see the world and their own precarious situation for what they really are.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think sticks writes books in his spare time.

[Rich-n-Texas]

What the United States needs is a genuine left-wing party. What they have is right-wing + conservative/populist party, the Republican, and centrist + quasi-"liberal" party, the Democratic.

I find it sad that the American myth that government programs can only help the shiftless and undeserving remains so persistent. It might change as the U.S.' position of leading economy erodes and American professionals and small-scale entrepreneurs find their livelihoods and imagined self-reliance shrinking along with those of the working people on whom they depend for their status.

The larger corporations and the super-rich, (both increasingly non-American), are bent on exporting good U.S. jobs as quickly as possible to foreign countries where labor costs, worker health & safely, and environmental safeguards are all minimal. The Republicans have had absolutely no response to the trend except to exacerbate it with deficit budgets to finance foreign wars that decreased national security rather than increased it, and their tried-and-futile "bribe the rich" taxation policies.

The American middle class really needs to take off it blinkers and see the world and their own precarious situation for what they really are.

Sunday is God's day. A day of rest.

Tomorrow's another day Rich.

[bobsticks]

Feanor,

I'm curious as to how you define a "genuine Left-wing party", what it's attributes would be, and why it would be good for America. I'm not baiting, I'm just interested in someone's perspective who's got a few years under his belt and isn't entrenched in the American experience on a daily basis.Clearly, your idea of leftwing is not in tune with the Left within our existing political structure.


sticks

[GMichael]

It's time we stopped worring about one wing or the other. We need to focus on the body and work together as if we were on the same team. What are the odds?

[bobsticks]

It's time we stopped worring about one wing or the other. We need to focus on the body and work together as if we were on the same team. What are the odds?

The odds are long Mike, if only because each party has powerful members that are more concerned with what you put in your body, what you put in your mind, what words come out of your mouth, and how much money they can put in their friend's pockets to make the effort to work for the common good.

[GMichael]

The odds are long Mike, if only because each party has powerful members that are more concerned with what you put in your body, what you put in your mind, what words come out of your mouth, and how much money they can put in their friend's pockets to make the effort to work for the common good.

Too true.
(Where true = sad)

[thekid]

I would submit that the extremes on both sides of the aisle are what causes nothing to get done in DC.

What we need in this country is a truly "independent party" i.e one that does not rely on big business or special interests on either side of the arguement to supply election $ and position papers. While it is a gross simplification, the Founding Fathers got into positions of power mostly on their beliefs/ideas not those of any large corporation or sector of the economy. Jefferson or Lincoln did not conduct any polls or hire "spin doctors" before making the biggest decisions of their presidency's. Whether this "independent party" calls themselves Republicans, Democrats or Whigs means nothing to me.

We have IMO about 2 generations to make some tough decisions on the direction of this country. Somebody needs to step up to the plate and "lead" the people down a tough road ahead. We have been living off of accumulated wealth for several generations and have become stagnant in many areas that lead to the rise of the "American Century".

I think it was my grandfather who once said a man who tries to move using only his left or right leg travels in a circle, it takes both legs to move ahead.

(author tilts head back to take another swig and falls off soap box)

[Feanor]

Feanor,

I'm curious as to how you define a "genuine Left-wing party", what it's attributes would be, and why it would be good for America. I'm not baiting, I'm just interested in someone's perspective who's got a few years under his belt and isn't entrenched in the American experience on a daily basis.Clearly, your idea of leftwing is not in tune with the Left within our existing political structure.

sticks

Sticks, no doubt you're aware that the left vs.right thing dates back to the 19th century French General Assembly where parties representing the wealthy and upper classes sat to the speaker's right and those representing the poor and working classes sat to the speaker's left.

So a left-wing party properly represents the poor and working classes. These are not necessarily socialist parties (that is, advocating government ownership of industry), but they do strongly tend to support programs that assist the less-than-wealthy, if necessary, at the expense of the rich. Typical policies include:

• Universal education through university
• Universal health care
• Strong workplace safety regulation
• Public, or mandated private, pensions and benefit plans
• Progressive taxation, (i.e. tax the rich proportionally more).

Commonly but not necessarily, (or even typically), left-wing parties:

• Support regulation of industry to the benefit of consumers
• Mandate protection of the environment
• Tend to protectionist trade policy
• Are closely connected with organized labor.

Which American party shares most of these attributes or does most of these things? Neither.

Would it be good for America to have a left-wing party? Obviously extreme left-wing policies if enacted, such as universal state control of the economy and ownership of industry as practiced by the Communists, would be a bad thing. But it might not hurt the U.S. at all to move a bit closer to the examples of the Scandinavian countries that still manage to afford ordinary people with exemplary protections and benefits despite the pressures of gobalization. In any case it definitely wouldn't hurt the U.S. to have such left-wing party in competition with the right-wing Republican and centrist Democrats.

[bobsticks]

Here, here and well said Bill Bailey. I'll admit that I was prying just a bit to find out exactly how left leaning a set of policies you were advocating. I imagine that if we were to sit down and go point for point we'd probably disagree mightily on a few but agree on many more.

I suspect that at this point in the American experiment we may be at a unique low water mark in the annals of world history. I can think of no other society in any time or any place that has fostered, nay glorified, ignorance. It's too cool to be stupid. But on the other hand if the government were to play parent that would give most kids two, so maybe that's a good thing.

In any case, I agree that at some point a change toward the protection of the people, or at least the protection of the people's opportunities, must be made. Thanks for your input.

[Auricauricle]

I remember living in New York and seeing places called "Gaseteria"s (sp?)....

I had to speculate, but I tried my best not to.

Maybe they were onto something....

Ma! More beans! I gotta go to work!

(Ahem. Cough!)

[Feanor]

...

So a left-wing party properly represents the poor and working classes. These are not necessarily socialist parties (that is, advocating government ownership of industry), but they do strongly tend to support programs that assist the less-than-wealthy, if necessary, at the expense of the rich. Typical policies include:

• Universal education through university
• Universal health care
• Strong workplace safety regulation
• Public, or mandated private, pensions and benefit plans
• Progressive taxation, (i.e. tax the rich proportionally more).

Commonly but not necessarily, (or even typically), left-wing parties:

• Support regulation of industry to the benefit of consumers
• Mandate protection of the environment
• Tend to protectionist trade policy
• Are closely connected with organized labor.

...

I'm getting old and senile: I forgot to mention an important attribute of proper left-wing parties. Fortunately a few others have mentioned it, so I'm just going to reinforce the point.

Left-wing parties do not rely primarily on for-profit organizations for their funding. Unfortunately it's often the case that left-wing parties are funded heavily by big labor (which is "for-profit" in a manner of speaking).

The natural tendency whenever a party is close to power, (has a good chance to win an election), it attracts contributions from for-profits who put the party their debt. These contributions are not ideological. Usually there's no expectation of changing the basic orientation of the left-wing party, rather the hope is to influence particular policies, and often this is the effect. Thus in case of the U.S. presidential elections we see anomalies and contradictions in the polices of both candidates that can be traced to financial support from particular for-profit interest groups.

I'm not a political scientist, but I suspect it's true that an effect two-party, as opposed to multi-party, system tends to lack of innovation and a practical similarity of polices. A third party of significant size can have a major influence on the policies of a least one of the other two parties even if it doesn't have a real change of winning major office.