THE KILLERS (cont.)

[Woochifer]

I guess we're now talking about McDonald's ...

Some must get the impression that I think everyone is stupid. Woochifer - can you not poiint to ONE example in the history of the planet where somethig was sold that was NOT sold due it's superior quality.

Topsppeed please. One does not have to get a degree in a field to know it. You too cabnnot point to one single example that something sells but is not of the highest quality.

FOrget profit lets talk sales. McDonalds sell how many billions are we now at, Burgers? Man I pity you for not having tasted better burgers and fries. And even at the price - are they the BEST you can possibly buy?

McDonald's in their defense since I worked there for 3 years was never about the quality of the product they sold but about the quality and speed of service they offerred. And in that regard they were probably the best along with cleanliness standards for a long time (you could probably argue both have aspects they have been caught) for a fast food chain. But the actual product? Give me a break.

This applies to speakers. There is a Prestige of ownership which is the result SOLELY of marketing. People think Bose even people who have never heard a Bose speaker in their entire life. Becausee it's advertised on TV. Start getting some inside info guys. Lots of other companies have followed along large parts of the Bose models - cube systems etc. Bang and Ollufsson is NOT quality stereo equipment (break down rates not applicable really because most stuff reated well will last when it comes to speakers).

And then you have not even started on the Cable companies. Monster Cable is gigantic. A salesman I know here who went to their headquarters told me and showed me the margins on what they get and how much the salesperson gets. A Salesperson there would rather sell you the $60.00Cdn cable than a $600.00TV. For one the salesman makes more commission, and two doesn't have to lug the tv into your car.

It's highly debatable as to cables being sold on sound quality or that they last longer than cheapo cables that come with your gear. I have heard the salespitches that this cable will make way more difference than upgrading to that speaker. People shell it out because Monster doesn't own a race track and a fleet of F1 cars for no reason or send salesman to hollidays for selling the most in a region alla B&O.

There is perceived quality and I don't intend to tell people that if they perceive their cable to benefit them that they're deluded. Or if they are buying Britney Spears because they think she is the best singer or talent currently available - heck maybe they're just horney and want the cover.

The American model of consumerism is about packaging - you've heard it numerously stated that so and so artist is a packaged commodity like the Spice Girls etc. In fact more to the Business degree I would suggest gettingh an arts degree so one is not sucked into the American Dream before it's too late - Good ol' Willy Lowman is an example of it.

Topspeed
Audio Note sold me on the sound - the salesman said nothing other than try these. I sent an e-mail asking to hear 4 speakers and asked if he had something he wanted to add. I went and listened. What got me most intrigued was the E. No preselling markleting hype. None really because I bought a speaker that had had no reviews anywhere for them. The websitre was a joke. Still is.

As for PQ - before you jump to conclusions you may want to find out why he does what he does - as Shocking as it might be for Americans to realize some poeple have other motivations than JUST making sales. And when you hear his gear - it will become clearer perhaps - until then his site and their beliefs are just raving arrogant backward pie in the sky claims. Fair enough I suppose.

[Woochifer]

Some must get the impression that I think everyone is stupid. Woochifer - can you not poiint to ONE example in the history of the planet where somethig was sold that was NOT sold due it's superior quality.

Well, I don't know if you think everyone is stupid, but your statements on the thread presume that things are popular because people were duped into buying them. The way that markets function, it comes down to which product fits a person's needs best. I never said that what sells best is what's absolute best. That's why with audio equipment, you got so many manufacturers. It's easy to take potshots at the market leader, but it hardly amounts to anything consequential in the end because more often than not, the vast majority of consumers do not follow the leader.

Bose may sell the most speakers, but they certainly don't dominate all market segments, and they don't even have close to a majority market share. McDonald's may be the top restaurant in revenues, but their entire global chain generates $17 billion annually, while all restaurants in the U.S. ALONE take in about $350 billion. That means that AT LEAST 95% of restaurant goers at any given time are eating somewhere OTHER THAN McDonald's.

You're actually presuming that your definition of superior quality should be part of everybody's definition of what suits them best. First thing you learn in an econ class is that people make their market decisions based on maximizing utility. Well, that utility is a very individual value statement. Convenience, price, availability, and a whole litany of other factors come into play when it comes to how people make their decisions in a market economy.

I mean, if the Audio Notes were only available at a dealer 1,000 miles from where you live, would you have chosen to buy those speakers? Or what if they were mail order only, would you have even bothered to listen to them? Those speakers may suit your definition of superior quality, but if not for Soundhounds carrying them and you living close to them, who knows what your individual outcome might have been. So, even in your case, you had a number of other factors besides product quality that had to line up in order for you to make your purchase.

Topsppeed please. One does not have to get a degree in a field to know it. You too cabnnot point to one single example that something sells but is not of the highest quality.

Well, confusing profits with revenues is not exactly the best way to earn a business degree.

FOrget profit lets talk sales. McDonalds sell how many billions are we now at, Burgers? Man I pity you for not having tasted better burgers and fries. And even at the price - are they the BEST you can possibly buy?

I come from L.A., which is pretty much a burger mecca, so I know my burgers. But, the thing to keep in mind is that burgers that make the grade in L.A. are not sold everywhere (especially not here in the SF Bay Area, where the only legit burger is In-N-Out, which IMO is only a third tier burger in L.A.). Whenever I'm traveling, at least if I go to a McDonald's, I know that I'm getting something that's consistent with the McDonald's locations back home and it's probably not going to make me sick. Grabbing something over at Joe's Burger Pit in Podunk USA might be decent, or it might be gross, or it might make me violently ill. I don't know if it's good or if it's even safe, and if I'm not in the mood to go polling the local truck drivers, a quick two-minute drive thru at the golden arches might suit my needs better than rolling the dice with an unknown mystery eatery.

McDonald's in their defense since I worked there for 3 years was never about the quality of the product they sold but about the quality and speed of service they offerred. And in that regard they were probably the best along with cleanliness standards for a long time (you could probably argue both have aspects they have been caught) for a fast food chain. But the actual product? Give me a break.

Are you saying that you've never eaten a burger worse than at McD's? Consider yourself lucky, there's plenty of room underneath the McD's level of quality.

This applies to speakers. There is a Prestige of ownership which is the result SOLELY of marketing. People think Bose even people who have never heard a Bose speaker in their entire life. Becausee it's advertised on TV. Start getting some inside info guys. Lots of other companies have followed along large parts of the Bose models - cube systems etc. Bang and Ollufsson is NOT quality stereo equipment (break down rates not applicable really because most stuff reated well will last when it comes to speakers).

Like I said, it doesn't matter what we think of the product quality. If Bose or B&O meet the needs of THEIR customers, then who are we to judge how people come to their decisions? We recommend that people do comparisons, do listenings, etc. But, other customers have no interest in doing that kind of shopping. They look for the product that meets THEIR needs, and they buy it.

Also, prestige of ownership has a LOT more than just marketing attached to it. Rolls Royce is high on the prestige factor, but where's their marketing?

It's highly debatable as to cables being sold on sound quality or that they last longer than cheapo cables that come with your gear. I have heard the salespitches that this cable will make way more difference than upgrading to that speaker. People shell it out because Monster doesn't own a race track and a fleet of F1 cars for no reason or send salesman to hollidays for selling the most in a region alla B&O.

Even by off-topic standards, this paragraph is pretty far off-topic. I have no idea what point you're trying to make by bringing F1 cars into the discussion.

The American model of consumerism is about packaging - you've heard it numerously stated that so and so artist is a packaged commodity like the Spice Girls etc. In fact more to the Business degree I would suggest gettingh an arts degree so one is not sucked into the American Dream before it's too late - Good ol' Willy Lowman is an example of it.

Okay, so the AMERICAN model of consumerism is about packaging, yet the Spice Girls are a BRITISH band, go figure. And guess what, this whole "I'm just a little guy, I don't advertise; I don't publish specs, I want consumers to listen; my approach runs against conventional wisdom because everybody else is wrong" posture that you attribute to Audio Note IS IN ITSELF a form of marketing and packaging! Obviously, it factored in as an attribute in your decision making because you continually trump those aspects as positives. In case you forgot, we live in a global economy, so lighten up on the anti-American tirades.

Something is commodified when it is so ubiquitous and uniform that you can set up trade standards and build global exchanges around them. Memory chips are commodities; orange juice concentrate is a commodity; pork bellies are commodities; oil is a commodity; steel is a commodity. Music is NOT a commodity because there's no uniform standard as to what people must buy, the price does not vary based on global demand and supply fluctuations; there are multiple genres, songwriters, and delivery mechanisms; speakers are NOT commodities because you have differentiated market segments and no uniform design standards; etc. Something can become commodified when its value is dictated solely on price, but that does not make it a commodity per se.

This whole alarmist "sucked into he American Dream before it's too late" is a pretty narrow view of the world. There's plenty of choice out there as far as the music, movies, audio equipment, etc. that we can pick and choose from. What does it matter what the market leaders are doing if 1) you can still find market choices that meet YOUR values; 2) the market leaders constitute only a fraction of what the market actually consumes; and 3) people are free to make their own decisions about their own values.

This whole tirade spanks of elitism. Why does it matter to you how other people make their choices? If you answer that you know something that they don't, then you have just imposed your values on them.

[thepogue]

8 months outta town and the first thing I read is this from RGA.....

"Here they are carrying B&W, Paradigm, Martin Logan etc. Well known brands and mostly bought before the consumer ever even listens to one."

words from a drowning man.....RGA....me brudda.....you need to unplug your 'puter...and go on a date....NOW


(giggles) Pogue