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  1. #26
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    I'm wondering about North Korea.Should'nt somone go over there and talk to them.I mean they have a missle now that could reach the USA.They also have been isolated for quite some time and therefore in my oipiion are somewhat paranoid.
    If they are foolish enough to try it, then there wont be a NK left after we use what we have and they know it. I dont belive they are paranoid,they are playing the game.
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  2. #27
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Serving your country and protesting it's actions are not mutually exclusive. If called I would lay aside my personal beliefs and serve at the will of the President. However, that wouldn't stop me from thinking that Bush was an idiot to go into Iraq, he was an idiot going in to Iraq, and he is still an idiot the way he is going about staying in Iraq. He was doubly an idiot for not finishing the job in Afghanistan with Bin Laden. And triply and idiot for pronouncing 'Mission Accomplished' for some nice political photo op. I could never be ashamed to be an American, but Bush has brought me very close. Kerry on the otherhand is an idiot in thinking it's in our best interest to get out on a timetable. Our troops all deserve medals for serving so honorably under such a bunch of yahoos.

    'We' are not animals and neither are 'They'. Jihadists are no different from any other aggressor that blindly serves an ideology. Most of 'Them' were children brought up in a closed society with no frame of reference to the modern world. They are not particularly well educated, and have been brought up on a diet of Martydom and twisted views of the Koran. They've been seduced by promises of Pride and Glory, National Identity, Spiritual reward, whatever. They’ve been told that Americans are the devil, that we’re not human, that God wants us dead, whatever. They value life just, just not ours. Let’s not stoop to that level.

    Have some pride. Preserve some dignity. Fight with Honor. Try to behave like the Americans we’re supposed to be. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness and Don’t Tread on Me.

    God, I sound almost as bad as JOEBIALEK.

    Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
    habe ich geschwiegen;
    ich war ja kein Kommunist.

    Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
    habe ich geschwiegen;
    ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

    Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
    habe ich nicht protestiert;
    ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

    Als sie die Juden holten,
    habe ich nicht protestiert;
    ich war ja kein Jude.

    Als sie mich holten,
    gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for the Jews,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.
    It looks like animals did something to the 2 that were beheaded and left like hamburger.
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  3. #28
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Animals don't kill, brutalize, and maim to make a political point.

  4. #29
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    Look,I'm just your average US citizen.I'm only capable of one vote.

  5. #30
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Animals don't kill, brutalize, and maim to make a political point.
    Animals do all of that and dont make any points,they just kill.
    Look & Listen

  6. #31
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    The question is, how do you kill an idea? How do you teach people the truth when they've already been taught not to listen?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  7. #32
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    Look,I'm just your average US citizen.I'm only capable of one vote.
    You would not be able to say that if you' were a Democrat in New Jersey, where their motto is "Vote Early, Vote Often"

  8. #33
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Depends on the 'idea' you want to kill and what you consider 'truth'. If truth is to accept Christian ideals and occupation...well...you don't go into an islamic country that is jittery about foreign occupation talking about 'Crusades' and offering homilies and jargon lifted from movie Westerns.

    Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

    Wait a few generations.

  9. #34
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Depends on the 'idea' you want to kill and what you consider 'truth'. If truth is to accept Christian ideals and occupation...well...you don't go into an islamic country that is jittery about foreign occupation talking about 'Crusades' and offering homilies and jargon lifted from movie Westerns.

    Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

    Wait a few generations.
    The idea I would like to kill is that all Americans are the devil.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  10. #35
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Depends on the 'idea' you want to kill and what you consider 'truth'. If truth is to accept Christian ideals and occupation...well...you don't go into an islamic country that is jittery about foreign occupation talking about 'Crusades' and offering homilies and jargon lifted from movie Westerns.

    Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

    Wait a few generations.
    What you suggest is impossible. Their Islamic culture has no respect for anything but Islam. They don't want an educational system. They don't believe in womens rights. What they want is what the Taliban had in Afghanistan. They can't get along with each other. They are fighting over who is the successor to Muhammad. Most radical Muslims are pissed of that Islam is not the dominant culture in the world.
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  11. #36
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    What you suggest is impossible. Their Islamic culture has no respect for anything but Islam. They don't want an educational system. They don't believe in womens rights. What they want is what the Taliban had in Afghanistan. They can't get along with each other. They are fighting over who is the successor to Muhammad. Most radical Muslims are pissed of that Islam is not the dominant culture in the world.
    One could possibly make a compelling analogy with the far Christian right...

    Impossible is silly. Nothing about society is permanent.

    The ‘they’ you refer to is the ‘they’ you perceive them to be based on stereotypes that you have been taught. I don’t doubt that ‘they’ have problems in their society. But they do want education. Unfortunately the only organizations teaching the poor how to read and write are the religious groups, some of which have militant agendas. But if you’re poor and have no future, and are given the choice of no education or a theocratic one, which would you choose?

    Islamic culture used to be one of the more educated and open cultures of the world. I'm no scholar but my understanding is that Islam is a religion that actually emphasizes tolerance. I think the Christian crusades changed that a bit. As a young nation, we don't have long cultural memories and don't really appreciate them and their effects on societies. They do remember.

    Yes, women don’t have equal rights and that is something that can be changed with time and pressure. It’s only been 140 years since we were legally enslaving people in this country. And women have only been granted the right to vote for the last 86 years. Islamic nations have had more female Presidents than the US has had.

    The Taliban brought, law and order and stability. That's what moderates everywhere want. They’d like law order and stability again. Our job should be to see that they don’t have to get it from Islamic extremists. But who are they going to trust? The enemy they know or the enemy they don’t.

    Anyway, brutalizing soldiers is barbaric. It takes a sub-human, wacked out person to do that. But, no civilization/culture has a monopoly on barbarism. The solution isn’t to go out and destroy the ‘Them’ the solution is to make life better so the ‘Them’ don’t form in the first place.

  12. #37
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I think noddinOff is on the exact same page as me. Now that is a first in this forum!
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  13. #38
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    I knew you could come around!

  14. #39
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

    Wait a few generations.
    It's not that easy. One cannot both "push for women's rights" and "respect their culture" as the the concepts stand in opposition. Providing an educational system does little good when the environment in which they live lacks the most basic technological infrastructure and manufacturing apparatus. It would be terribly complex in a liberal, non-homogeneous society with sufficient ways and means (like ours), and most impractical in societies otherwise.
    We have spent so much time in our workplaces, our schools, and in our media furthering the concept of tolerence of "other cultures". Tacit in this is the expectation that the "other cultures" will express the same civility and regard for human life and wellbeing as we do.
    It is an assault on our liberal sensibilities to find that there are those that will be assuaged by nothing short of our annihilation.
    From where do these extremists arise and who funds the madrasahs of indoctrination? The royal families and the oil barons and those that we have funded/supported/armed for the last fifty years. The motivation? Well, if you and your family and a few members of a selected caste owned 99.9% of your country's wealth with the rest of the population living in abject and hopeless squalor, you too might wish to refocus their rage. ( I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you ).

    Wait a few generations? With an impending Iranian bomb I'm just hoping to make it that long...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    You would not be able to say that if you' were a Democrat in New Jersey, where their motto is "Vote Early, Vote Often"
    That's a good question,who's running this country

  16. #41
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    One could possibly make a compelling analogy with the far Christian right...

    Impossible is silly. Nothing about society is permanent.

    The ‘they’ you refer to is the ‘they’ you perceive them to be based on stereotypes that you have been taught. I don’t doubt that ‘they’ have problems in their society. But they do want education. Unfortunately the only organizations teaching the poor how to read and write are the religious groups, some of which have militant agendas. But if you’re poor and have no future, and are given the choice of no education or a theocratic one, which would you choose?

    Islamic culture used to be one of the more educated and open cultures of the world. I'm no scholar but my understanding is that Islam is a religion that actually emphasizes tolerance. I think the Christian crusades changed that a bit. As a young nation, we don't have long cultural memories and don't really appreciate them and their effects on societies. They do remember.

    Yes, women don’t have equal rights and that is something that can be changed with time and pressure. It’s only been 140 years since we were legally enslaving people in this country. And women have only been granted the right to vote for the last 86 years. Islamic nations have had more female Presidents than the US has had.

    The Taliban brought, law and order and stability. That's what moderates everywhere want. They’d like law order and stability again. Our job should be to see that they don’t have to get it from Islamic extremists. But who are they going to trust? The enemy they know or the enemy they don’t.

    Anyway, brutalizing soldiers is barbaric. It takes a sub-human, wacked out person to do that. But, no civilization/culture has a monopoly on barbarism. The solution isn’t to go out and destroy the ‘Them’ the solution is to make life better so the ‘Them’ don’t form in the first place.
    I'm sure they will change. BTW,why is it so many want us dead?
    Look & Listen

  17. #42
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shokhead
    It looks like animals did something to the 2 that were beheaded and left like hamburger.
    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Animals don't kill, brutalize, and maim to make a political point.
    You're right. They do it instinctively. It's an inate part of their nature and they can't help it. It's not a choice.

    Now humans, on the other hand, have the ability to think and reason. It's what separates us from many of the other animals. We have the ability to make a choice. They chose to kill those soldiers. Not only did whoever did this choose to kill, but they went out of their way to torture first. You know, I think that I could accept a nice clean killing, it is war after all and the rules are not the same as peaceful civilian life. These soldiers are their enemy. But the torture makes these dirtbags worse than animals. It's one thing to rid yourself of your enemies. It's quite another to have the mental capacity to watch them suffer.

  18. #43
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    What about the weapons of the USA that could reach much more then just Canada ;-) ?
    Hey, leave us out of this. We already have a Prime Minister who thinks that Canada should be the next State to join the Union.


    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    :-) There is no generalisation of humans, and i believe that every culture is unique and neither is superior. We all have different strength and weaknesses and we need to work together.
    Ah, now if only everyone thought this way...the world wouldn't be in the mess it's in.

  19. #44
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    One could possibly make a compelling analogy with the far Christian right...

    Impossible is silly. Nothing about society is permanent.

    The ‘they’ you refer to is the ‘they’ you perceive them to be based on stereotypes that you have been taught. I don’t doubt that ‘they’ have problems in their society. But they do want education. Unfortunately the only organizations teaching the poor how to read and write are the religious groups, some of which have militant agendas. But if you’re poor and have no future, and are given the choice of no education or a theocratic one, which would you choose?

    Islamic culture used to be one of the more educated and open cultures of the world. I'm no scholar but my understanding is that Islam is a religion that actually emphasizes tolerance. I think the Christian crusades changed that a bit. As a young nation, we don't have long cultural memories and don't really appreciate them and their effects on societies. They do remember.

    Yes, women don’t have equal rights and that is something that can be changed with time and pressure. It’s only been 140 years since we were legally enslaving people in this country. And women have only been granted the right to vote for the last 86 years. Islamic nations have had more female Presidents than the US has had.

    The Taliban brought, law and order and stability. That's what moderates everywhere want. They’d like law order and stability again. Our job should be to see that they don’t have to get it from Islamic extremists. But who are they going to trust? The enemy they know or the enemy they don’t.

    Anyway, brutalizing soldiers is barbaric. It takes a sub-human, wacked out person to do that. But, no civilization/culture has a monopoly on barbarism. The solution isn’t to go out and destroy the ‘Them’ the solution is to make life better so the ‘Them’ don’t form in the first place.
    The Taliban brought law and order but at what price. Where else can you be sentenced to death for converting to a different religion? Where else were women refused the right to any kind of education? Where else where statues and pictures defaced and/or destroyed? Women not only don't have equal rights they are not considered fully human under strict Islamic thought. They are considered property and nothing more. Remember in Islam there can be no seperation of church and state. Lets be honest and realize and admit that the ultimate aim of Islam is the end of all secular rule and the end of all other religions.
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  20. #45
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Again, I'm no scholar, but European Monarchies were a Christian example of the union of Church and State- many wars were conducted on the basis of religious hatred. The Inquisition was a period where 'heretics' were condemned to death or worse. Iraq was a secularly governed Islamic society under Hussien. I suppose Egypt and Turkey are other examples. The US managed to separate church and state, but it's quite clear that our own Christian far right would like to merge the two again. So, like I said, nothings permanent.

    I think it's close-minded to expect a culture to transform overnight into the Western style democracy we miraculously managed to create under entirely different circumstances. I believe the Taliban stepped into the power void left by an invading USSR tried to occupy the country. Culturally, Afghanistan from what I read was a beautiful, open, and progressive society and of the more pro-women’s rights Islamic nations. Just because extremist, fundamentalist groups are successful doesn’t mean that it was everyone’s first choice.

    Let’s not label the whole of the Islamic world fundamental extremists and Jihadists. It just ain’t so, any more than we’re a nation of recovered addicts and born again Christians with Presidential aspirations.

  21. #46
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Again, I'm no scholar, but European Monarchies were a Christian example of the union of Church and State- many wars were conducted on the basis of religious hatred. The Inquisition was a period where 'heretics' were condemned to death or worse. Iraq was a secularly governed Islamic society under Hussien. I suppose Egypt and Turkey are other examples. The US managed to separate church and state, but it's quite clear that our own Christian far right would like to merge the two again. So, like I said, nothings permanent.

    I think it's close-minded to expect a culture to transform overnight into the Western style democracy we miraculously managed to create under entirely different circumstances. I believe the Taliban stepped into the power void left by an invading USSR tried to occupy the country. Culturally, Afghanistan from what I read was a beautiful, open, and progressive society and of the more pro-women’s rights Islamic nations. Just because extremist, fundamentalist groups are successful doesn’t mean that it was everyone’s first choice.

    Let’s not label the whole of the Islamic world fundamental extremists and Jihadists. It just ain’t so, any more than we’re a nation of recovered addicts and born again Christians with Presidential aspirations.

    Your first paragraph,that all took place in a more uncilvilized time.
    Look & Listen

  22. #47
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddinOff
    The Taliban brought, law and order and stability.
    You don't actually believe this do you?! Law, order and stability? What about Freedom? What about Justice? What about Basic Human Rights? You don't think that these things are important?

    Laws are established by people in authority. If that Authority is corrupt, do you think that the laws they create will be in the interest of the People or the interest of the Authority? Just because something is Law doesn't make it moral or right.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Where else were women refused the right to any kind of education?
    Well, lots of places actually. The world is not friendly to women. Female circumcism is still performed. Women are sentenced to death and stoned for being raped by married men. Women have acid thrown in their faces for looking at a man who is not her husband. Women are sold as chattel and treated like slaves. Female babies are murdered while male babies are allowed to live.

    The Taliban were/are not unique in their views of women. There are many countries in the world where women are treated just as poorly if not worse. But that's another thread for another day.

  23. #48
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    The world is not friendly to women.
    But I am...
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  24. #49
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    You don't actually believe this do you?! Law, order and stability? What about Freedom? What about Justice? What about Basic Human Rights? You don't think that these things are important?
    Here's a quick link I just found that says pretty much what my perception was.
    http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html
    I don't know who wrote it or why. Obviously, it didn't work out, as many choices don't. I do think those things are vitally important. And I think that on a global scale, promoting the rights of women is one of the primary tools we can use to modernize countries and promote stability. But we Americans tend to think we can just instill those values everywhere tomorrow.

    This is probably due to our Declaration of Independence - "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." They seem self-evident to us because we grew up with it, it is our cultural dogma.

    Well the problem is that these 'truths' really aren't 'self-evident'. They were relatively novel truths at the time. So first, you need the stability and infrastructure and quality of life that will allow you the liberty and capabilities to realize and uphold these 'self-evident' truths.

    So yes, I do believe that. You can't go anywhere with a corrupt goverment. The Taliban was a less corrupt option. Unfortunately, a democratic-republic style government of checks and balances, doesn't just ride in on a white horse when ever people are in need.

  25. #50
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Vengence is whose?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I think, for every GI captured tortured and beheaded in Iraq we should line up ten suspected Al Quada members and execute them immediately. The only questions is, "Is ten of them enough to make up for one GI?" Should we make it twenty of them for each GI?
    It was an outrageious, revolting act. As for your suggestion, I ask what is your motivation? To limit the violence or get revenge?

    As I recall, the Nazi killed 100 local people in occupied country for each German soldier or policeman killed there; it didn't stop or even slow down the resistances.

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