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  1. #51
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    Your first paragraph,that all took place in a more uncilvilized time.
    Well, just because we have machine guns, submarines, and anthrax, no longer have to fight on with swords, and we have sanitation systems, and generally agree that the world is round, I wouldn't call us more civilized. We've had human civilizations for around 10,000 years. What makes you think we all of a sudden got more fundamentally civilized in the last 400. We're just cleaner, live longer, know more about the world, talk across greater distances, and can kill millions of people with a few strokes on a keyboard. But we're still basically the same creature we were 400 years ago. We're xenophobic, cling to our believes, get angry when someone disagrees, organize into hierarchies, take advantage of one another...

  2. #52
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Ask the non-whites if its the same here as 400 years ago.
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  3. #53
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Well, if you mean African-Americans, the Slave trade to the Americas began about then and continued for a good 200+ years so yes, they're not slaves anymore so that's an improvement. But they still haven't achieved parity with whites so that would indicate to me we're not really all that civilized. True enough though that if ownership and traffic of humans is your measure, we are more civilized.

    Just an aside, my first introduction to Islam (not that I have had much exposure) I got from reading the Autobiography of Malcolm X – as told to Alex Haley. As an ignorant white boy from redneck country, it was an eye opener. Malcolm had a lot of good thoughts and many of the Islamic values he believed in probably really could’ve benefited the black communities. I finished that book thinking that Malcolm could have been a great man, leader, role model if he’d been better understood…and if white Christian America was more tolerant and less xenophobic.

  4. #54
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Now I found it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm X
    During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept in the same bed (or on the same rug) -- while praying to the same God -- with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions and in the deeds of the "white" Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan, and Ghana.

    We were truly all the same (brothers) -- because their belief in one God had removed the "white" from their minds, the 'white' from their behavior, and the 'white' from their attitude.

    I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man -- and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their "differences" in color.

    With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called "Christian" white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster -- the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves.

    They asked me what about the Hajj had impressed me the most. . . . I said, "The brotherhood! The people of all races, color, from all over the world coming to gether as one! It has proved to me the power of the One God. . . . All ate as one, and slept as one. Everything about the pilgrimage atmosphere accented the Oneness of Man under One God.

  5. #55
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I have no problems with illegal, er,.. undocumented, aliens per se, but I do draw the line at:

    Free medical; Just say no. If citizens have to pay for it, why do they get a free ride?

    Free schooling; Hey, our property taxes pay for that. Why should they get a free ride?

    Multiple languages; My grreat grandparents took the time to learn the languavge andmade damn sure tmy grandparents spoke English. ... and they didn't have classes in their own language, either.

    Anchor babies; So what if momma calves on American soil. That should not mean a free ride for mommy and daddy as well. Pack 'em up and ship 'em out. Drop 'em at the border and let that country south of us deal with it. And, see free medical for more on this.

    as for the employers who exploit these, fine 'em up the arse. Make it too expensive for them to have illegals working for them. If they paid a living wage in hte first place, dollars to donuts they would not have a problem finding Americans to do the work.

    But, the guys in the McMansions want a good price on their construction, nannies and landscapers. Heck, fine them too. Betcha they start making sure the people who work on their property are legal when it hits 'em in the wallet. MAybe they'll have to start living like the middle class again.

    Social Sccurity checks ae small beans. Take everyone's fingerprints and match 'em through a national database. If these two don't match, well, lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do.
    Free schooling yes but non-english speaking students in k-5th grade hold back english speaking students. Its a bad deal.
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  6. #56
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Here's a quick link I just found that says pretty much what my perception was.
    http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html
    ....Unfortunately, a democratic-republic style government of checks and balances, doesn't just ride in on a white horse when ever people are in need.
    Thanks for the article. It was a very interesting read. I wasn't aware of some the history. I have a better understanding of the point that you're making, but I still don't agree with you. The Taliban was one option that may have brought order to government. But that article certainly doesn't indicate stability. Just the opposite, the people became oppressed. The region became poorer. It's a Government's responsibilty to protect it's people. I don't see any indication of protection. Just the opposite in fact.

    Look at all the Freedoms that were lost. You talk about how the only education system was one governed by religious groups. Why was that? Because the government wouldn't allow it to be any other way? It's an attitude of, "you're either with us or against us".

    How many people were needlessly murdered by their own government because they were viewed as "not being with us"...for having different beliefs or a different level of belief. I don't care how you dish it out, it's just a blatant lack of valuing human life. You can't say that value isn't "self-evident".

    The US was right to topple the Taliban. Aside from retaliation for 9/11. They took took down a government that was immoral. Something that should be done more often. If only the rest of the world were so brave.

  7. #57
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    They dont need to be brave when they use us to do the dirty work. What was France doing 65 years ago?
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    'We' are not animals and neither are 'They'.

    Sorry, but I emphatically disagree. If we put women's panties on an Iraqi's head, or take pictures of them naked, we are condemned by the entire world for such "atrocities." On the other hand, if the Iraqi's behead innocent civilians (currently their favorite targets), film the beheading, and broadcast it to the entire world on the internet; if they burn GI's alive, and then drag their corpses behind a truck; or if they hang bodies of dead GI's from bridges for the townsfolk to sneer at and hit with their shoes; or if they routinely blow up mosques while civilians are inside praying, then, somehow, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and in particular, the media, that's OK. NO, it's NOT OK, thank you.

    I think we are just too civil a people compared to the animals who call themselves Islamics, and distort the Koran to suit their own personal, sick agenda. They ARE animals, and deserve to be treated as such, but we'll never be able to do that, as the rest of the world would condemn us for such "barbaric" treatment, while the same from the Iraqi's goes on and on without anyone seeming to object. So far, there haven't been any reports of how American prisoners of war are treated in Iraqi prisons. Why is that so? Because they never make it alive to such a place!

    And I fully agree that the ACLU should go to Iraq and solve all the problems over there. They'd last about 5 minutes (if that long).

  9. #59
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    They dont need to be brave when they use us to do the dirty work. What was France doing 65 years ago?
    That's what I mean. We shouldn't be relying on the US to do the dirty work. Canada abstained from fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Our government chose, instead, to let other countries fight the war and we went in afterwards as peacekeepers. A decision that I disagreed with.

    Although in our case, I think that decision had a lot less to do with bravery and a lot more to do with the fact that military spending is almost nil in Canada (and seems to get smaller with every budget) and we really have no military force to speak of.

    We're ripe for invasion, come and get us.

  10. #60
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Canada's no wimp,just small.
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  11. #61
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    Sorry, but I emphatically disagree. If we put women's panties on an Iraqi's head, or take pictures of them naked, we are condemned by the entire world for such "atrocities." On the other hand, if the Iraqi's behead innocent civilians (currently their favorite targets), film the beheading, and broadcast it to the entire world on the internet; if they burn GI's alive, and then drag their corpses behind a truck; or if they hang bodies of dead GI's from bridges for the townsfolk to sneer at and hit with their shoes; or if they routinely blow up mosques while civilians are inside praying, then, somehow, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and in particular, the media, that's OK. NO, it's NOT OK, thank you.

    I think we are just too civil a people compared to the animals who call themselves Islamics, and distort the Koran to suit their own personal, sick agenda. They ARE animals, and deserve to be treated as such, but we'll never be able to do that, as the rest of the world would condemn us for such "barbaric" treatment, while the same from the Iraqi's goes on and on without anyone seeming to object. So far, there haven't been any reports of how American prisoners of war are treated in Iraqi prisons. Why is that so? Because they never make it alive to such a place!

    And I fully agree that the ACLU should go to Iraq and solve all the problems over there. They'd last about 5 minutes (if that long).
    Hell i put panties on my head all the time,whats the big deal?
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  12. #62
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Thanks for the article. It was a very interesting read. I wasn't aware of some the history. I have a better understanding of the point that you're making, but I still don't agree with you. The Taliban was one option that may have brought order to government. But that article certainly doesn't indicate stability. Just the opposite, the people became oppressed. The region became poorer. It's a Government's responsibilty to protect it's people. I don't see any indication of protection. Just the opposite in fact.

    Look at all the Freedoms that were lost. You talk about how the only education system was one governed by religious groups. Why was that? Because the government wouldn't allow it to be any other way? It's an attitude of, "you're either with us or against us".

    How many people were needlessly murdered by their own government because they were viewed as "not being with us"...for having different beliefs or a different level of belief. I don't care how you dish it out, it's just a blatant lack of valuing human life. You can't say that value isn't "self-evident".

    The US was right to topple the Taliban. Aside from retaliation for 9/11. They took took down a government that was immoral. Something that should be done more often. If only the rest of the world were so brave.
    I agree. The article also corrected some of my misperceptions (if the article is accurate). We should have toppled the Taliban. We should have got the job done with the full force and attention of our armed forces. We should have got that country back up on its feet and help it become moderate, Islamic, and democratic. Instead Mr. Short-Attention-Span-Need-to-Be-A-War-President-to-Get-Reelected-Because-Domestic-Agenda-Is-Messed-Up-Bush went into a bigger war with insufficient cause, insufficient planning, insufficient wisdom, and insufficient MORAL LEADERSHIP.

    He left the worlds best prepared, best trained, free-est military force in the world hanging exposed with out clear objectives. If we're going to send our kids to war. You damn well better lead them... or lead them better. And get the job done. Where is Bin Laden?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    I agree. The article also corrected some of my misperceptions (if the article is accurate). We should have toppled the Taliban. We should have got the job done with the full force and attention of our armed forces. We should have got that country back up on its feet and help it become moderate, Islamic, and democratic. Instead Mr. Short-Attention-Span-Need-to-Be-A-War-President-to-Get-Reelected-Because-Domestic-Agenda-Is-Messed-Up-Bush went into a bigger war with insufficient cause, insufficient planning, insufficient wisdom, and insufficient MORAL LEADERSHIP.

    He left the worlds best prepared, best trained, free-est military force in the world hanging exposed with out clear objectives. If we're going to send our kids to war. You damn well better lead them... or lead them better. And get the job done. Where is Bin Laden?
    I believe Bin Laden is hiding in a cave somewhere.With that said,do you think he really has any power anymore.

  14. #64
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    He took down the Trade Center and 3000+ lives. It doesn't matter to me if he has any power anymore.

    ...but, yes, I do think he has power. Even if his power were only as an icon, I think that power needs to be dismantled. He needs to sit behind bars for the rest of his life.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    He took down the Trade Center and 3000+ lives. It doesn't matter to me if he has any power anymore.

    ...but, yes, I do think he has power. Even if his power were only as an icon, I think that power needs to be dismantled. He needs to sit behind bars for the rest of his life.
    A cave is a good a place as any.

  16. #66
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    I agree, on one condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergymunster
    A cave is a good a place as any.
    That condition being that all entrances to the cave are permanently sealed and preferably air tight.

  17. #67
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    If the US government really wants Bin Laden increase the reward to $500,000,000. I would bet someone would bring in his head on a pole in less than 10 days.
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  18. #68
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Heck, just give the contract to Halliburton.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    If the US government really wants Bin Laden increase the reward to $500,000,000. I would bet someone would bring in his head on a pole in less than 10 days.
    They'll just probably subcontract Duane Chapman (Dog the Bounty Hunter) to do it, anyway.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    That condition being that all entrances to the cave are permanently sealed and preferably air tight.
    I bet he's having shrimp on the barbe.

  20. #70
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    They'll just probably subcontract Duane Chapman (Dog the Bounty Hunter) to do it, anyway.
    That's fine with me. Just offer the money and get it over with.
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