Gasoline prices: How high will it go?

[Smokey]

If we want to bring the price of gas down, we have to use less of it.

That probably will help save the owner some money, but it might not be a cure all solution as supply and demand equation well goes beyond USA borders. It is a world wide epidemic. If prices are fixed by OPEC, it doesn't effect the price of a gallon whether we buy one million or 5 million barrels of oil.

But I agree that every little bit help even if prices stay the same. For example, my employer just bought a SUV and his wife bought one too, with no kids living at house. And those SUVs are a gas guzzlers just looking their large tires.

Also as somebody else mentioned, it takes about 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel fuel than a gallon of gasoline, and the pollution factor might not make diesel fuel and attractive alternative.

So the only concrete solution might to look at other alternative energy sources such as natural gas, agriculture bi-products or electricity

[shokhead]

Gas isnt going down. Gas prices will go up. There's plenty of gas and oil and if you think not, well i have a bag full of dog cr$p i'll sell ya. They will add taxes before they take any away. Bottom line is most of the world needs gas to drive and if you need something,the prices will go up. I thought even/odd plates for gas was fun.

[kexodusc]

I have no doubt that people will use every excuse to maximize their profit potential. If there's an underlying reason for a price hike, for sure someone will pad the numbers to their advantage to increase their margins. It only makes sense that the reverse will occur, trimming back a little on their price when they get a big reduction in their costs. It's just human nature...to be expected from people who want to take advantage of their position. It occurs at EVERY level of business though...not just oil. When we get perfect people running things, we'll get perfect correlations between cost and price.

That's exactly my point Jeskibuff...Consumers are well aware of the increases in Crude and the inevitable hikes at the pump, but when the reverse happens, it's never front page news, the consumer has become complacent, and accepts the new, high price of gas (although grudgingly)...there's less downward pressure from the demand side. The supply side is artificially controlled.

A man has an empty tank and $20 in his pocket, he decides he's gonna spend that $20 on gas. Now say while on his, George W. Bush announces some crazy gas tax...the man still spends $20 on gas. Economics dictates the man should be willing to buy less gas at higher prices, but in reality, gas consumption keeps increasing, despite fuel efficiencies.

I think we're on the same page now...I didn't blame "the big bad oil companies for anything", they gotta do what they gotta do...And while the oil companies get rich, so do the millions of Americans who's retirement and savings plan include oil investments...

Interesting that you accept a corporation trying to price gouge, but seem to have a bit of contempt when the gouging comes from a government. Personally, I dont' like being ripped-off by either
Don't like gas prices, buy stocks in oil companies...

Hey, you're the one who said earlier: "do you guys really think if the taxes were reduced that prices would drop?" I was just proving to you that YES...the price drops when the tax drops!

Yes you're right, in my haste I didn't qualify my earlier statement with "directly proportional to the drop in taxes"...i'll accept some slight oversight on my part in my hasty statement.
However, my statements still hold. Prices are set to maximize revenue...a decrease on the other side of the equation has no direct effect on the point where revenues are maximized. No company deliberately chooses to NOT maximize revenue..

Gas has become a pseudo-necessity, where supply and demand,and even competition aren't always working in favor of the consumer.

Now an interesting point concerning the price of gas in New Brunswick, Canuckistan...has it recently skyrocketed as it has here in the states? I mean, if so many people like to blame Bush for gas prices, how do they reconcile the increase in Canadian prices? And doesn't Canada have quite a lot of oil production, especially in Alberta?

No prices here have been reasonably stable over the past 6 months or so, a slight spike when Oil reached the all-time high ...I think the price of gas in the USA has more to do with the weak dollar that Bush is being blamed for (I don't think a Democrat president would have done any better) raising the import costs...this allows the companies to let everyone know that oil is costing more, so expectations are softened, and price hikes are a bit more palatable. New expectations, increase the figure for revenue maximization.
Have the hikes been directly proportional to the increase in Crude?

As for Canuckistan...are you trying to be derogatory or funny, and to which audience?

[cam]

Hey Kex, 94.7 is a deal. Over here on the west coast our price is 105.9/liter in the morning, for about an hour in the afternoon it drops to 99.9 and then just in time for the evening rush it goes back up to 105.9.

[kexodusc]

That's too bad, Cam...I did a bit more research on the Canadian tax levels...they vary by province...according to Esso (division of Exxon, www.esso.ca) 40-50% of the price at the pumps includes a direct gas tax...there's double and even triple taxing going on...On the east cost, some provinces have a gas surcharge of 8% (Harmonized Sales Tax) as well...Of the manufacturing costs reported, there's more surtcharges/taxes levied that the oil companies are having to pass on.

We're easily handy to 60-66% I read on the stickers at the pumps, I'm sure there's some hidden taxes there as well.
While I'm a bit pissed off we're being tax gouged, I'm no even more curious as to why the cost of gas back home in Atlanta is almost as much if tax rates are only 20-30%.

What's worse, the government (not just Canada) taxes the hell out of the record profits the oil companies are making - taking a cut of our savings.

I'm not one for consipiracies, and I certainly wouldn't consider myself a left-wing liberal, but I find it a bit suspicious that governments who makes zillions of the oil industry don't appear to be trying their hardest to eliminate any market inefficiencies to promote the best form of competition. They've got too much to gain standing pat.

[jeskibuff]

Consumers are well aware of the increases in Crude and the inevitable hikes at the pump, but when the reverse happens, it's never front page news, the consumer has become complacent, and accepts the new, high price of gas (although grudgingly)...there's less downward pressure from the demand side.

What else can they be but complacent? They have little power to change things except to change their own worlds and become less dependent on gasoline. Sir TtT changed his world by buying a vehicle that oil moguls probably hope doesn't increase in popularity. Those who own gas guzzling SUVs changed their worlds and now they're more dependent on fuel prices. That was/is their choice and they need to deal with it. We all know the world is growing and will require more and more of the dwindling oil supply. Even the spread of democracy is bad because backwards countries like Iraq and Afghanistan will begin to prosper and they'll need a bigger portion of the oil supply as a result. Americans will change their habits if gas prices remain high - they will adjust. There's a lot of whining and wailing going on now despite the fact that our prices are still far lower than what Europeans have been paying for decades. It's far from a crisis. In a couple of months you may consider $3/gallon to be a bargain because you've gotten used to paying $3.50!

The supply side is artificially controlled.

No doubt about that. OPEC is probably the major force in setting oil prices and as long as the demand is there, they can set any price that the market is willing to pay. Only when we cut our dependence on oil is when we'll be able to fight back.

A man has an empty tank and $20 in his pocket, he decides he's gonna spend that $20 on gas. Now say while on his, George W. Bush announces some crazy gas tax...the man still spends $20 on gas. Economics dictates the man should be willing to buy less gas at higher prices, but in reality, gas consumption keeps increasing, despite fuel efficiencies.

Were you drunk when you were writing this? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense and seems to be missing words. e.g.: "Now say while on his watch..."? You start with an example of buying power and end with talking consumption/efficiency. It's not coherent enough for me to interpolate what you're trying to say.

Interesting that you accept a corporation trying to price gouge, but seem to have a bit of contempt when the gouging comes from a government. Personally, I dont' like being ripped-off by either

Nor do I, but as I said before at least you have a bit of control over the corporation by decreasing your dependency on their product. Either you go to the competition who has the product at a cheaper price or you change your world so that you don't need as much of that product as you used to. With government they really don't care about how much product sells. If less sells then they'll just jack up the taxes to compensate for the loss of revenue.

As a similar example, consider when Clinton axed the 55 MPH national speed limit. I was living in Florida at the time and speed limits were subsequently raised on the interstates. This meant that there would be fewer speeding tickets issued, so the FHP promptly restructured the fines so that those fewer tickets would result in the same (if not more) revenue. Greedy S.O.B.s!

My big issue comes with your statement "I don't mind paying taxes for the well being of a country". Here you seem to be saying that "I'm perfectly content with Canadian government confiscating 2 out of every $3 I spend because they're using that money for the betterment of the nation". In reality, governments are the most wasteful of organizations with the least accountability for revenues. I would trust a corporation much more than I would trust a government. At least the corporation has to be held accountable for things.

Don't like gas prices, buy stocks in oil companies...

A nice idea if you have the money. But if you've just shot your wad by tanking up your Tahoe...

Yes you're right, in my haste I didn't qualify my earlier statement with "directly proportional to the drop in taxes"...i'll accept some slight oversight on my part in my hasty statement.

Good, then I'll accept that as a half-hearted apology for your "too condescending" statement.

As for Canuckistan...are you trying to be derogatory or funny, and to which audience?

Hey, I like a lot of things about Canada and the Canadian people. Quebecers seem to be of a different sort but they've got that French attitude thing going on there which even alienates them from their fellow Canuckistaners. Consider "Canuckistan" just an affectionate nickname for our northern neighbors. I picked up the term from another message board and consider it amusing and use it in a jesting mode. If someone gets a chuckle out of it, fine! If someone gets their panties all in a twist over it then they've got bigger mental problems to deal with, don't they?

I find it a bit suspicious that governments who makes zillions of the oil industry don't appear to be trying their hardest to eliminate any market inefficiencies to promote the best form of competition.

This is good. You're apparently questioning the good nature of money-grubbing governments. Now given the fact that our oil supply is definitely finite, I wouldn't mind high taxes that push people into being more conservative with their gas consumption. But if they're going to collect all that money then they need to account for it and spend it mainly on projects intended to reduce oil dependency. Improve traffic flow. Spend some money on traffic light timing. Instead, the money just gets squandered into pork barrel projects. Only when governments are held accountable for their expenditures will I advocate higher taxes, but not until then.

[Duds]

Well if you think I am arrogant for thinking hybrids suck and are ugly, then i think you are a moron for buying one and you look like a dork driving it....

QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible]You don't have a choice but to suck it up and pay. Calling hybrids a hunk of junk does not make the price go down either, it just makes you a part of the problem and not the solution. If you want to keep your attitude, then by all means pop out that fat wallet and continue to throw dead presidents at the gas pump. Keep in mind, the people in New Delhi and Bejing don't care one bit about your *****ing about the price of gas. And some prince in Saudi Arabia isn't going to feel sorry for you and offer you a discount price. Your arrogance has a price, and now you are paying it.[/QUOTE]

[kexodusc]

Were you drunk when you were writing this? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense and seems to be missing words. e.g.: "Now say while on his watch..."? You start with an example of buying power and end with talking consumption/efficiency. It's not coherent enough for me to interpolate what you're trying to say.

I ...must...have...been...dunno WHERE I was going with that...looks like I cut something out and didn't past it back in......I think my point might have been around the necessity-like property of gasoline...here, consumption isn't related to supply or demand...this is where I'd like to see some form of effective, independant-from-government regulation to keep an eye on pump prices...the auto companies are killing themselves with discount incentives to push product in an oligopoly because as the prices have increased (especially in a rough time in the economy) consumption of NEW cars has decreased...consumption of gas has not...there's little real competition...generally on the demand curve, a higher price means less demand or decreased supply...Effective supply hasn't changed - there's plenty o' barrells of oil waiting to be opened, and a 15, 20, or 30 year reserve supply into the future before exhaustion in other industries is treated as being indefinite...how much time do we need to come up with a viable alternative?
Guess it'll take a crisis to change attitudes...

My big issue comes with your statement "I don't mind paying taxes for the well being of a country". Here you seem to be saying that "I'm perfectly content with Canadian government confiscating 2 out of every $3 I spend because they're using that money for the betterment of the nation". In reality, governments are the most wasteful of organizations with the least accountability for revenues. I would trust a corporation much more than I would trust a government. At least the corporation has to be held accountable for things.

Whoah! Slow down there my man...I don't mind paying taxes...My Dad served in the US Air Force for 25 years, they could have used more tax revenue...I'm not opposed to FAIR taxes...And it makes little difference to me what share a corporation or government gets at the price of the pump if the price is reasonable...Considering the close proximity in gas prices between Canada and home, despite double the taxation, I'm calling BS on someone, somewhere in the chain who ISN'T George W. Bush and co.
After saying I'm okay with paying taxes, to conclude I'm content being taken for 66% is a rushed conclusion...you got me all wrong, guy.

I'm not convinced governments are all wasteful, any moreso than the majority of businesses. Most have been cut to the point of operations failure. The only difference is when the government screws up, it's front page news...when mid-cap companies screw up, it's lucky to make page D-47.
And the last 5 years have taught us a lot about the integrity of the private sector...CEO's getting millions through corruption, then serving 6 months in jail...sounds like a fair trade to me. Sure you get the odd Enron where they're nailed to the wall in the public eye, but for the most part Corporate Governance and accountability is certainly not better than government. It all starts with people...and there's a too many money-grubbing people looking for the easy buck these days...

Hey, I like a lot of things about Canada and the Canadian people. Quebecers seem to be of a different sort but they've got that French attitude thing going on there which even alienates them from their fellow Canuckistaners. Consider "Canuckistan" just an affectionate nickname for our northern neighbors. I picked up the term from another message board and consider it amusing and use it in a jesting mode. If someone gets a chuckle out of it, fine! If someone gets their panties all in a twist over it then they've got bigger mental problems to deal with, don't they?

I've only ever been to Montreal, Quebec...mostly english, kind of like a less flamboyant San Francisco. Dunno what the deal with Quebec and Canada is. Interestingly enough corporate and personal taxes in this province (which is just above average in Canada on the personal, and just below on the corporate) are actually less than Maine and Georgia (last 2 states I lived in)...Canadians might soon be referring to us as the U.S.S.S.A.
The only real real shocker I've experienced in Canada is on the price of cars where a 15% tax comes out of nowhere. The money I save on health insurance for two of us more than compensates though. Not much difference in total taxes paid for my situation, just collected differently. I'm paid in USD though, and that's been a kick in the nuts since I got here

This is good. You're apparently questioning the good nature of money-grubbing governments.

Not so much their money grubbing as their reluctance to enforce free-market principles on this industry for the apparent conflicting interests I mentioned.

[BRANDONH]

I've never driven a diesel vehicle that wasn't a dog as far as performance is concerned. For power and performance, give me gas-powered ANY DAY!

A dog no way!

http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_dieselperf.cfm

Thats why todays diesels are turbocharged.
My car is only one second slower in the quarter mile that of the same car with the base gasoline model with torque close to that of a V6.
Test drive one youll see.

But diesels emit much more particulate matter. They are worse polluters than gas and harder to clean up, from what I understand.

That's mostly the fault of the diesel fuel sold here in the USA which USA diesel is the dirtiest in the world.
Todays diesel will eventually be replaced with Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel (ULSD) which will help a great deal.

http://www.dieselforum.org/factsheet/ulsd.html

Other advantages:
No tune-ups i.e. no spark plugs.
Durability, longer lasting engines with an easy 300000+ miles before rebuild.
5000 miles between oil changes.
Basic inspection i.e. no emissions test so inspection is cheeper.
Diesel engines can run on Bio-Diesel (non petroleum Vegetable oil base) which could be made at home if absolutely needed and is completely non polluting.
(try making your own gasoline)

http://www.biodiesel.org/.

Its the old thinking that diesels are sooty, slow and noisy because of the earlier GM cars back in the 80s that were gasoline engines converted to diesel.

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html

If and when the Hybrid diesel goes into production they expect to see 100 mpg.
With extremely low emissions running un either bio or ulsd.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Exactly. The simple laws of supply and demand apply.

Yes, you lower demand, which increases inventory and drives the price down.

A bit of an exaggeration, eh, Sir TtT?

Well, maybe a bit. But was trying to make a point, not do a complete and accurate analysis.

By my calculations, if your Honda cost about $20K (let's say you got a deal at $19K, including taxes and fees)

Actually it was $17,500 including taxes and fees.

and you've been paying an average of $2.30/gallon (not the recent $3)

I live in the bay area man, we haven't paid $2.30/gallon for about a year now. It has averaged around $2.50/gallon for a while now.

...have you put that many miles on it already?

Not even close. But once again, I was trying to make a point. The value that I place on it goes farther than just money. I commute with my best friend in the morning when not travelling. That means I can ride in the HOV lane every morning. Instead of it taking 45 minutes to get to work, it takes 15 minutes. So when I say it has paid for itself, it has in both time and money.

I'm sure many more people would want them if they weren't so ugly. In my opinion, the tear-drop shaped Honda is particularly unsightly. Still, with the current gas prices the hybrids are selling like hotcakes despite the looks! But beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I bet you just love yours, don't you Sir TtT?

I personally don't think the Insight is ugly, but I guess that's a matter of opinion. . It does have a spacey, unusual look, but I get great comments all the time. Now the Prius is pretty ugly to me, but not to the thousands of folks that own them.(they seem to be everywhere in the bay area)



How much gas is wasted sitting at intersections like that, not to mention the wear-and-tear your vehicle gets from the stop-and-go driving? Let's get our roads up to their full potential for moving traffic! Let's get rid of the bottlenecks caused by lower-than-they-should-be speed limits. Stop-and-go driving at 40MPH uses much more gas than does traffic moving over 65MPH, plus it prematurely wears out both your car and the road surface and increases the likelihood of collisions.

][/QUOTE]

I don't worry about sitting at stop lights. Aside from wasting my time, I just put the car into neutral, and the engine goes off. No wasted gas here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well if you think I am arrogant for thinking hybrids suck and are ugly, then i think you are a moron for buying one and you look like a dork driving it....

QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible]You don't have a choice but to suck it up and pay. Calling hybrids a hunk of junk does not make the price go down either, it just makes you a part of the problem and not the solution. If you want to keep your attitude, then by all means pop out that fat wallet and continue to throw dead presidents at the gas pump. Keep in mind, the people in New Delhi and Bejing don't care one bit about your *****ing about the price of gas. And some prince in Saudi Arabia isn't going to feel sorry for you and offer you a discount price. Your arrogance has a price, and now you are paying it.

Since you have never seen me driving my car, I 'll just chalk up this statement to the lack of any grey matter between the ears. Thanks to my hybrid I have more money in my pocket that is not going to the middle east. Can you say the same, or does the lack of grey matter prevent you from making a intelligent answer.

[Duds]

Considering i dont have a car payment, it's safe to say i have more money in my pocket than if I went out and bought an ugly hybrid that would take may years and miles before I saw any kind of savings on gas purchases.

Since you have never seen me driving my car, I 'll just chalk up this statement to the lack of any grey matter between the ears. Thanks to my hybrid I have more money in my pocket that is not going to the middle east. Can you say the same, or does the lack of grey matter prevent you from making a intelligent answer.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Considering i dont have a car payment, it's safe to say i have more money in my pocket than if I went out and bought an ugly hybrid that would take may years and miles before I saw any kind of savings on gas purchases.

I guess you are right, most children have bycycles so you wouldn't have a car payment. Funny, I don't have a car payment either, my car is paid for. Is your bycycle?

[jeskibuff]

Well if you think I am arrogant for thinking hybrids suck and are ugly, then i think you are a moron for buying one and you look like a dork driving it...

Hey...I'm the one who called the Insight ugly. You called it a hunk of junk. Incidentally, Honda has a sterling reputation for building some of the most reliable cars on the planet. Toyota, too! Calling them "hunks of junks" clearly shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. As far as Sir TtT being a moron for buying one, the facts show that he made a smart decision not only for himself but for his fellow humans on this planet. As far as "looking like a dork driving it", what total simplemindedness to judge someone based on the vehicle they drive! That's purely a shallow and superficial attitude. And who's more of a man? Someone who's so insecure that they have to drive a car that projects an "acceptable" image in order to get attention or someone who's secure and self-confident enough to drive a car that other people may consider "uncool"? My hat's off to Sir TtT for his choice of vehicle!

Were you drunk when you were writing this?

I ...must...have...been...dunno WHERE I was going with that

It's okay. If you need some kind of drug or alcohol intervention, just say so! We're here for you!

the auto companies are killing themselves with discount incentives to push product in an oligopoly because as the prices have increased (especially in a rough time in the economy) consumption of NEW cars has decreased

First off, I don't see near as many discount incentives to push cars as there was years ago. The economy has improved quite a bit, but sales aren't always tied directly to the economy. Many people bought new cars years ago when incentives were REALLY good but those cars are more reliable than they were in years past, so why should they buy another one so soon? I'm still driving a 1997 BMW M3 and while it'd be nice to have a newer car, mine has been ridiculously reliable, is still a blast to drive and I'm not attracted to much in today's marketplace that I would consider an improvement. I no longer have car payments...there's not much incentive for me to buy new. This is the way car ownership should be...no planned obsolescence. It's good for the buyer, but not so good for the manufacturers!

...consumption of gas has not

I still don't quite get the connection you're trying to make. You're saying that because car sales have decreased that consumption should decrease too? If so, that's flawed logic because driving an old car or a new car is still driving a car that consumes gas. And with the SUV being the hot mover over the last few years, it shouldn't be a mystery that consumption would be greater.

a higher price means less demand or decreased supply

Sorry, but a higher price tends to follow greater demand for a product that's in limited supply.

Guess it'll take a crisis to change attitudes

You got that right!

I'm not opposed to FAIR taxes

Neither am I, nor most Americans that I know. But what makes a tax fair? Isn't it all dependent on how that tax money is spent? Where does that 2/3 go to in New Brunswick? If it's going into tangible improvements in infrastructure and other worthy projects, it's fair, isn't it? You're essentially helping to purchase a commodity that's good for you and your fellow citizens. But if it's being wasted and squandered, it no longer can be considered "fair".

Considering the close proximity in gas prices between Canada and home, despite double the taxation, I'm calling BS on someone

But didn't you say earlier that there was a huge disparity in prices across Canada because of taxes? I believe there's a lot we don't know, but the more we look the more we can understand the market forces at work. Whether there's a lot of BS going on or pricing that can be justified cannot be determined. Before we assess blame on someone we ought to make sure we've got our facts straight.

I'm not convinced governments are all wasteful, any moreso than the majority of businesses. Most have been cut to the point of operations failure.

There are many reasons governments suffer under budget cuts, but mainly occur when the expected revenue stream that supports a bloated entity suddenly dries up. You bet that many states have suffered loss of sales tax revenue because of the ability for someone to easily acquire goods over the internet instead of buying them locally. I'm convinced that most governments are far more wasteful than equivalently-sized private corporations. Accountability makes the difference, and there's little to be found in government. In the interest of brevity and in keeping this thread on track, I'll refrain from commenting on the other comparisons between the public and private sectors.

I'm paid in USD though, and that's been a kick in the nuts since I got here

Unless you're paid in US$ but taxed in Can$ what's unfair about that? If your peers make your salary only in Can$, I can see how your company could be seen as taking unfair advantage of you, but if you're being paid the equivalent in US$, how is that unfair?

A dog no way!
.
Thats why todays diesels are turbocharged.
My car is only one second slower in the quarter mile that of the same car with the base gasoline model with torque close to that of a V6.

Apples and oranges. You're comparing a normally aspirated gas engine with a turbocharged diesel. Turbocharge the gas engine and measure the 0-60 time difference then! Even with turbocharging the diesel is still slower than the gas engine. Dieselforum.org's assertion that performance is better than gas must only pertain to fuel consumption, not road manners.

Its the old thinking that diesels are sooty, slow and noisy because of the earlier GM cars back in the 80s that were gasoline engines converted to diesel.

Yeah, GM sure took a short cut that helped to ruin their reputation. Not so much that they were "sooty, slow and noisy" but for the fact that those engines failed regularly under the stress of higher compression ratios needed to run diesel. Gawd, what a bunch of fools!

I live in the bay area man, we haven't paid $2.30/gallon for about a year now. It has averaged around $2.50/gallon for a while now.

As I said, I was just juggling some guess-timates around. There are major unknowns concerning how long you have owned your Honda, etc.

I can ride in the HOV lane every morning. Instead of it taking 45 minutes to get to work, it takes 15 minutes. So when I say it has paid for itself, it has in both time and money.

But couldn't you do that in a regular vehicle as well? Or does "HOV" now mean "Hybrid Only Vehicles" in Kaliforneea now?

I don't worry about sitting at stop lights. Aside from wasting my time, I just put the car into neutral, and the engine goes off. No wasted gas here.

Sorry, but hybrid or not, it wastes gas. Yes, the engine isn't running but when you hit the "gas" again, your batteries are is depleted while accelerating the car back to cruising speed. Once the gas engine kicks in again some of the fuel you're burning is used to bring the batteries up to full charge. If you were able to sail through that light you wouldn't waste the momentum (even if the braking also helps to recharge the batteries). But though your Honda makes it much more efficient to stop at a traffic light, the point still is that most other cars are not as thrifty and the stop-and-go is nasty on gas consumption.

I don't have a car payment either, my car is paid for. Is your bycycle?

Oooh. That had to have left a mark!

[Duds]

Have you been an ass your whole life? I dont know what prompted your personal attack on me, i thought i had a right to my opinion. Guess you can dish it out but you cant take it.

and no, its not a bicycle...it's a big V-8 gas hog....BWAHAHAHAH!!!!! maybe if i see you friving your little ugly ass hybrid i'll give you a honk...

I guess you are right, most children have bycycles so you wouldn't have a car payment. Funny, I don't have a car payment either, my car is paid for. Is your bycycle?

[Duds]

most children know how to spell bicycle....

I guess you are right, most children have bycycles so you wouldn't have a car payment. Funny, I don't have a car payment either, my car is paid for. Is your bycycle?

[Duds]

Would you guys relax a little? I made a simple statement, and Terrence makes a personal attack on me, so i respond. I'm having fun here in case you guys cant see my sarcasm. I could care less what you drive, and you shouldnt care what people think about the vehicle you drive. I could care less what people think of the vehicle I drive...its a 96 Yukon wiht rust on it for cryin out loud. Does it bother me people may talk about the rust? HELL NO!!! Does it bother me that people may talk about the clothes i wear? HELL NO!!!

Christ, cant we all get along?!!

By the way, I think the Honda hybrid is a nice looking car, it actually looks normal. Some of the other ones just look plain stupid, I dont care how good they are on gas. But again, thats my opinion and no one should care what I think!!!

[QUOTE=jeskibuff]Hey...I'm the one who called the Insight ugly. You called it a hunk of junk. Incidentally, Honda has a sterling reputation for building some of the most reliable cars on the planet. Toyota, too! Calling them "hunks of junks" clearly shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. As far as Sir TtT being a moron for buying one, the facts show that he made a smart decision not only for himself but for his fellow humans on this planet. As far as "looking like a dork driving it", what total simplemindedness to judge someone based on the vehicle they drive! That's purely a shallow and superficial attitude. And who's more of a man? Someone who's so insecure that they have to drive a car that projects an "acceptable" image in order to get attention or someone who's secure and self-confident enough to drive a car that other people may consider "uncool"? My hat's off to Sir TtT for his choice of vehicle!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey...I'm the one who called the Insight ugly. You called it a hunk of junk. Incidentally, Honda has a sterling reputation for building some of the most reliable cars on the planet. Toyota, too! Calling them "hunks of junks" clearly shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. As far as Sir TtT being a moron for buying one, the facts show that he made a smart decision not only for himself but for his fellow humans on this planet. As far as "looking like a dork driving it", what total simplemindedness to judge someone based on the vehicle they drive! That's purely a shallow and superficial attitude. And who's more of a man? Someone who's so insecure that they have to drive a car that projects an "acceptable" image in order to get attention or someone who's secure and self-confident enough to drive a car that other people may consider "uncool"? My hat's off to Sir TtT for his choice of vehicle!

Thanks for the support bro!

As I said, I was just juggling some guess-timates around. There are major unknowns concerning how long you have owned your Honda, etc.

Eh, I was just funnin ya. You did all of these fancy calculations and it got me all flustered and stuff LOL

But couldn't you do that in a regular vehicle as well? Or does "HOV" now mean "Hybrid Only Vehicles" in Kaliforneea now?

Hey, I think we should exchange the C for a K, it actually looks kinda cool. Actually no, I couldn't do it in my other car. You have to have 3 or more in your car to use the high occupancy vehicle lanes here(HOV or diamond lanes as they call them here in Kali). However if you have a two seater then you can use the lane if you have a passenger. We just had a law here approved so that I can ride in that lane even If I didn't have a passenger with me.

Sorry, but hybrid or not, it wastes gas. Yes, the engine isn't running but when you hit the "gas" again, your batteries are is depleted while accelerating the car back to cruising speed. Once the gas engine kicks in again some of the fuel you're burning is used to bring the batteries up to full charge.

Jeskibuff, it works just a little different than that. The battery in the Insight is used to assist in acceleration, and to start the car from neutral. It doesn't run out(I have never seen it happen with me), and the battery is recharged when the car coasts, when braking, or in deceleration. The battery actually helps the car use less fuel when accelerating, and charging doesn't use any extra gas whasoever. While acceleration does use some battery juice, it is very small in most cases, and easily made up without burning much fuel. I didn't know all of this when I bought the car, I just thought is was a cool looking car, walked on the lot, and told the salesman I wanted it.

If you were able to sail through that light you wouldn't waste the momentum (even if the braking also helps to recharge the batteries). But though your Honda makes it much more efficient to stop at a traffic light, the point still is that most other cars are not as thrifty and the stop-and-go is nasty on gas consumption.

You are right, most cars are not this thrifty. It still would be better for all if traffic lights were better timed. I may save gas, but I don't save time when they are not.

Oooh. That had to have left a mark!

I really hate going to this level.

[kexodusc]

I still don't quite get the connection you're trying to make. You're saying that because car sales have decreased that consumption should decrease too? If so, that's flawed logic because driving an old car or a new car is still driving a car that consumes gas. And with the SUV being the hot mover over the last few years, it shouldn't be a
mystery that consumption would be greater.

No you're way off - I'm not saying car sales and consumption are related...I'm talking about pricing. Basic laws of supply and demand (in particular the demand curve) insist that at higher prices, fewer will be able to buy. People have limited money. You increase an expense somewhere, it eats into other areas...This can be observed in other industries...I only used cars as an example of this. Prices have gone up, people are making do with their vehicles a bit longer, the average turnover time is down a bit. With gas, we have not seen a decrease in consumption as a result of the increase in prices at a macro level, despite a constant supply of gasoline and effectively indefinite reserves. A percentage of the population like Sir T have adjusted, but not enough to make a difference, yet. In fact just the opposite...people apparently don't care about the price of gas and now we're seeing SUV's sales growing again.

Sorry, but a higher price tends to follow greater demand for a product that's in limited supply

.
No need to apologize, you are only half right here...Price is set where demand and supply meet, two functions, not one exclusively. Both of these don't have to change, either can affect the price by itself as well.

Neither am I, nor most Americans that I know. But what makes a tax fair? Isn't it all dependent on how that tax money is spent? Where does that 2/3 go to in New Brunswick? If it's going into tangible improvements in infrastructure and other worthy projects, it's fair, isn't it? You're essentially helping to purchase a commodity that's good for you and your fellow citizens. But if it's being wasted and squandered, it no longer can be considered "fair".

Fair is relative when your talking government programs. Health-care isn't so important to me at my age with my health...give me tax cuts or better highways. If I was 70 with cancer my opinion might change on how money should be spent. We could discuss whether a government should be even-handed to all people or just cater to the needs of a majority to determine what fair is, but I haven't decided which side of that fence I'm on yet. Whatever's most beneficial to me at the time I guess.

But didn't you say earlier that there was a huge disparity in prices across Canada because of taxes?

Nope...might have been someone else. I don't know what prices are everywhere else...but tax levels outside of oil-bearing Alberta aren't radically different from region to region...they are different though, but the price of gas tends to be fairly similar.

I believe there's a lot we don't know, but the more we look the more we can understand the market forces at work. Whether there's a lot of BS going on or pricing that can be justified cannot be determined.

I think you've just said it all - if we can't determine if the pricing can be justified then we've got a huge problem...Earlier you said everybody will take advantage of a potential profit making situation...your two statements combined create dangerous scenario, and what I consider to be the "BS" in the system.

I'm convinced that most governments are far more wasteful than equivalently-sized private corporations. Accountability makes the difference, and there's little to be found in government. In the interest of brevity and in keeping this thread on track, I'll refrain from commenting on the other comparisons between the public and private sectors.

I've never worked for the public sector but my job requires me to analyse the efficiencies of the private sector. There's a huge survivor bias in determining accountability between private sectors and public sector entities...the government is as close to a going-concern as you can get...businesses are not. A lot of bad companies don't show up in stats...historical government inefficiencies do. You could be right and public accountability is sometimes worse. To me that doesn't excuse the private sector of the need for accountability and the lack of it. Being better than government isn't the right test to pass.

Unless you're paid in US$ but taxed in Can$ what's unfair about that? If your peers make your salary only in Can$, I can see how your company could be seen as taking unfair advantage of you, but if you're being paid the equivalent in US$, how is that unfair?

Taxed in Canadian, which is fair to me, I work in Canada and it's actually more beneficial to me from a tax perspective...I had a choice to be paid a fixed salary in either currency (company policy, makes accounting easier for somebody somehow) At that date they were equivalent...I chose $US because I was more comfortable with the almighty $US dollar, basically betting on the US economy relative the Canadian economy. My problem is since I came to Canada the Candian dollar has kicked the crap out of the US dollar. That wasn't predicted in the US (things were suppose to get better) when I came. Bad timing, I guess. Since I live in an economy where everything is sold in $C, I have to convert from $US. Everytime the $US drops relative the $C, I take home less money while my living costs stay the same. About 12% of my salary since I came. My bonuses are paid in Canadian so it's not all bad. Good news is I can change in July.
We're a US company lots of Americans relocated here. Some of my peers are in the same boat some aren't. Things heat up in the summer when everyone decides which currency to choose. Knowing my luck I'll go 0 for 2.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Have you been an ass your whole life? I dont know what prompted your personal attack on me, i thought i had a right to my opinion. Guess you can dish it out but you cant take it.

First I wasn't attacking you personally. I was attacking a very arrogant american like thought process that says we can use however much oil we like, and we want it cheap too. Sorry, those days are over man. The Chinese and Indians now want a piece of the pie, a increasingly larger piece I might add.

and no, its not a bicycle...it's a big V-8 gas hog....BWAHAHAHAH!!!!! maybe if i see you friving your little ugly ass hybrid i'll give you a honk...

Great, a typical arrogant american thought process with a typical american gas guzzling car. Just what the world needs. SUV and V-8's are the very thing that is polluting our air, and making Prince(you put a name here) a very rich Saudi. Don't bother honking bro, I wouldn't take notice anyway. I completely understand that you have your opinion about what is ugly and what is not, but this is not about what is ugly, but what is efficient, cheap to operate, and gets me to point B.

If I made decisions based soley on what is ugly or not, I probably wouldn't be having this dialog with you right now. Now bwahaha to that!

[kexodusc]

most children know how to spell bicycle....

Yes, but...

and no, its not a bicycle...it's a big V-8 gas hog....BWAHAHAHAH!!!!! maybe if i see you friving your little ugly ass hybrid i'll give you a honk...

Most kids also know how to spell "driving"...

Sorry Duds, but it's always dangerous to make fun of spelling/typing mistakes.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

most children know how to spell bicycle....

Now you have taken to majoring in minors. Lofty cogitative skills you got there.

[Duds]

he spelled bicycle wrong not once, but twice.

I simply hit the "f" key which is right next to "d". the "i" and the "y" keys are not right next to each other....

[Duds]

OK, so your thought process is that since i purchased an SUV for the fact that it has 4 wheel drive and has plenty of room for my Saint Bernard, I am an arrogant American?? wow, that's amazing...

Sure, Subarus have 4 wheel drive, could my dog fit in the back? no way...

If the GMC trail blazer with the inline 6 was available when i bought my yukon, i most likely would have purchased one of those....and yes, the older blazers were available, but were much smaller, and being 6'3" i wouldnt not have been comfortable driving it....

First I wasn't attacking you personally. I was attacking a very arrogant american like thought process that says we can use however much oil we like, and we want it cheap too. Sorry, those days are over man. The Chinese and Indians now want a piece of the pie, a increasingly larger piece I might add.



Great, a typical arrogant american thought process with a typical american gas guzzling car. Just what the world needs. SUV and V-8's are the very thing that is polluting our air, and making Prince(you put a name here) a very rich Saudi. Don't bother honking bro, I wouldn't take notice anyway. I completely understand that you have your opinion about what is ugly and what is not, but this is not about what is ugly, but what is efficient, cheap to operate, and gets me to point B.

If I made decisions based soley on what is ugly or not, I probably wouldn't be having this dialog with you right now. Now bwahaha to that!

[kexodusc]

he spelled bicycle wrong not once, but twice.

I simply hit the "f" key which is right next to "d". the "i" and the "y" keys are not right next to each other....

Oh, well then, since you put it like that..