Fahrenheit 9/11 reaction thread

[piece-it pete]

Karl,

That's not censorship, that's a private business and we have the same right to tell him what he can and can't play as he has to tell us what we can and can't watch!

I read that MM article, too. He makes it sound like we're living in the stone age, when actually we're living in a golden age. I wonder if he's actually picked up a history book and seen the misery that is the norm for us.

I will now go fly my flag as a weapon against those who question Americas' course, and as a muzzle to stuff in peoples' mouths.

Pete

[Lord_Magnepan]

This from the country that practically invented concentration camps and ghettos!

Thanks for riding in the past :-) Lets bring up who trained "Bin Laden", what about the Vietnam War. The first gulf war.

"How can you teach a "true" and "democratic way" by invading a country with "0" facts that this country is a threat to you ?"

Thanks again for bringing up the past, Vietnam, the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nakasaki after the war

Didn't Uncle Adolph have a fortune teller?

I dont know, but since Adolph had one i am sure that Bush suffers the same Mental desease

"Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles"...I think that's how the song goes...

Well sorry but you are a LAMER !!! Most of you guys salute the flag all morning, the biggest Patriotism in the world

"Dr. Mengele, paging Dr. Mengele"

Correct, and its great that you guys do the same

Who said that? Goebels? Himmler? Eichmann?

Noone, but 54% of all Americans questioned

Stop taking it then. If not for us "thick headed" Americans, Europe probably wouldn't exist...If not for us, there would still be TWO Germany's...that's of course if we didn't stop bombing you back into the stone-age!

For a complete moron, a little History lesson. We exist a hell of a lot longer than you, America is a big amount of colonys founded by immigrants from Europe

jimHJJ(...Just MY opinion, Lord Magpie...)

Thanks for insulting me, this truly shows your well educated level ;-)

[RGA]

Religion is a way to keep power - only morons need a book to help them be moral citizens. The First Nations here were living more morally than any white(CHRISTIAN) folk who came here and butchered them for land. One only needs to talk to religious people to find the height of intolerance.

The notion of do unto others as you would have them to unto you was around before Christianity - may not have been written down but for ANY society to work - and they did before a single GOD was created to make things easier - that notion expressed in written form or not existed.

The fight against communism was also about religion - the Godless commy threat - the Domino theory. When Vietnam and Ho chi min(SP?) read the American Constitution and read the freedom for all bit brought that to the Americans to get Freedom from France - But Freedom in America was only applied if you were a White Christian - not a black and definitely NOT if your were Asian. The Vietnamese were then regarded as communist - which is untrue - they turned to communism for finances and America had it not been for greed along with France would have not had a war to start with. Try reading non American history writers. He was no communist and neither in fact is Castro.

The 1900's have been all about shifting balances of power from those like Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin - all presented themselves charismatically and used propaganda the left wing parties were wrong and we will "TAKE ACTION" and not talk about things in a rational manner.

If you listen to what Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell said about Iraq before 9-11 and what they say after 9-11 it paints an interesting picture. Why was Bush flying the Bin Laden family home when all planes were grounded - and this according to the FBI. They claimed they didn't know who did it at first - hmm.

History will look at a precedent that the American government invaded a sovereign Nation. No one is saying he's a good guy - and if I were in charge as soon as the guy gassed all those people I would have flattenned the bugger - only when Saddam did that America was giving him the weapons. Obviously Regan gave a rats ass about the 200,000+ people gassed to get a few American out of Iran. Lets give Saddam weapons of mass destruction. Then you wait 2 decades and try and get them back. Bin Laden - has all that money and the capability to hit the trade towers - WHY? because America set him up with all that money and all those weapons.

The rest of the world sees and then wonders - Gee everytime you do something it ends up making huge profits for certain people in your country and then creates a hell of mess later.

On the one hand I'm glad America went in and took down Saddam - and the Taliban. But I'd much rather you not set those guys up in the first place - and use American guns and gas to kill people - I realize capitalism is all about profit and a CEO would rather kill a million people to make $4.8 billion a month rather than a paultry 4.7999 billion a month - but please don't tell me that this system is "Good." It may look it - but Goebbles made it look like Germany was running smoothly.

[Resident Loser]

...we can dish it out but we can't take it eh? Oh, little schnitzle, poor, poor schnitzle...

Like Truman said(you know the guy who dropped 'em) "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen..."

Wilson's idea of isolationism was a good one...we should have let you all go about your little "family feud"(commonly refd. to as WWl) and stew in your own pudding...incestuous maggots...

"...For a complete moron, a little History lesson. We exist a hell of a lot longer than you, America is a big amount of colonys founded by immigrants from Europe..."

And you're doing a bang-up job of it...lessee, how many wars and such...should we start with Caesar and the Romans and Hadrians Wall, War of the Roses, Hundred Years War, the Hessians, Attila and the Huns, the Gauls, the Angles, the Saxons, Goths, Visigoths, Barbarossa, Charles Martel, Charlemagne, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Kaiser Wilhelm, the Crusades, feudalism, Louis and Marie, Imperialism, introduction of slavery into the New World and the introduction of unknown diseases to it, the Spanish Armada, the Inquisition, dynamite,Vegemite, mustard gas, U-boats, Xylon, blitzkrieg, Daimler-Benz and Messerschmidt and BASF and don't forget it was Bayer who invented heroin, the Reformation, the Hugenots, Marx, Engles, the Guillotine, purges, pogroms and my all-time fave: ethnic cleansing...Kandinsky, Cubism and overbearing perfumes, Edith Piaf, IKEA, the rack, the wheel, thumbscrews, the Iron Maiden, the broadsword, the stilletto, the mace, Lucretia Borgia...all wonderful examples of Europe at it's finest...

And at our earliest opportunity chose to sever the relationship with the motherland or fatherland hoping we could do better...guess what!...we did! and it galls you to no end...too friggin' bad...

"Thanks for insulting me"

No, no, it was my privilege...

"...this truly shows your well educated level..."

How nice of you to say so...

jimHJJ(...now bugger off...)

[karl k]

Karl,

That's not censorship, that's a private business and we have the same right to tell him what he can and can't play as he has to tell us what we can and can't watch!

Pete

All your doing is justifying the act with your statement. I'm sure he isn't being told what to show in his theaters and if he is, then that's wrong as well. IMHO

While I can appreciate the man has an opinion, and the means to do something about it, to me, it's more a case of "should he". I recall a song... American Pie... that was censored by one of the radio stations here in Kansas(if you can believe that) where the part at the end, "the father, son and the holy ghost" was omitted from play because of religious overtones. Truly wrecked the song IMO and should not have happened. It wouldn't matter to me what the subject or content is, if it is available, and targeted at adults, it should be made available to all and let the mass's decide whether to see it or not.(on an individual basis of course)

I would also say that I disagree with the reasons cited for the removal of this movie... so much so that I would almost consider calling him a lier and a hypocrite.

Here's to freedom... in what ever form I can get.

[Resident Loser]

..get your sh!t together...

FYI, the "first nations" imbued everything with a spirit...what do you think "medicine men" did, dole out aspirin? They and the shaman were the links to the supernatural.

Cave men had gods...the sun, the moon, the stars...early civilizations had multiple gods, Egyptians, Hittites, Babylonians, Romans, Greeks...Hindi still have, as do others...

Israel was monotheistic but had a dark side with the old "eye for an eye routine", it wasn't until Christ said to "turn the other cheek" that the "golden rule" or whatever you want to call it came to being...before that there was little regard for "thy neighbor" except to take his land or his food or just smite him for the fun of it...

With regard to Vietnam, Europe was imperialist...The US interests were strictly a balance of power...

And that's how we got into the mess we are in today...Egypt had ties to USSR and as a balance we(quite stupidly IMO) went against previous policy re: Israel. Prior to our selling them Hawk missiles in '62, the US State department considered Israel a "zionist state' because of it's bellicose attitude with it's neighboring countries...that balance of power presence has cost us dearly...

jimHJJ(...Castro not a communist? Funny, he and his programs sure seem to fit the profile...)

[piece-it pete]

Religion is a way to keep power - only morons need a book to help them be moral citizens. The First Nations here were living more morally than any white(CHRISTIAN) folk who came here and butchered them for land. One only needs to talk to religious people to find the height of intolerance.

Yes, the Indian culture was very successful, at both supplying the needs of their citizens and protecting their culture. Aren't you living on their land, enjoying the fruits of their natural resources? Evil, hateful. Or hypocritical?

And I for one have not found a more smug, self righteous set than the ivory tower Libs.

The notion of do unto others as you would have them to unto you was around before Christianity - may not have been written down but for ANY society to work - and they did before a single GOD was created to make things easier - that notion expressed in written form or not existed.

These other cultures had a higher value of human life than we do, right?

The fight against communism was also about religion - the Godless commy threat - the Domino theory. When Vietnam and Ho chi min(SP?) read the American Constitution and read the freedom for all bit brought that to the Americans to get Freedom from France - But Freedom in America was only applied if you were a White Christian - not a black and definitely NOT if your were Asian. The Vietnamese were then regarded as communist - which is untrue - they turned to communism for finances and America had it not been for greed along with France would have not had a war to start with. Try reading non American history writers. He was no communist and neither in fact is Castro.

Yes, like many still do the Reds needed to destroy the authority of the Church because it was in their way.

Many of the signers of the Constitution despised slavery. They, like Lincoln, believed the Union was more important than a single issue. We fixed this, with our blood.

Vietnam was in keeping with our stated policy of containment. If you read American historians writing about American history you would know that it was considered at the time to be SE Asias' breadbox, we were concerned that if Vietnam fell it would mean the Communization of most of SE Asia, including Japan. If you don't want to call vicious, bloody dictators supported by Communist dictators Communist, that's fine. There were no boat people coming from Vietnam before they took over.

And please clue me in - what was our financial reason for keeping Vietnam under our Capitalist heel?

The 1900's have been all about shifting balances of power from those like Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin - all presented themselves charismatically and used propaganda the left wing parties were wrong and we will "TAKE ACTION" and not talk about things in a rational manner.

Stalin said the LEFT WING was wrong? What about that whole Communist/gulag thing?

If you listen to what Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell said about Iraq before 9-11 and what they say after 9-11 it paints an interesting picture. Why was Bush flying the Bin Laden family home when all planes were grounded - and this according to the FBI. They claimed they didn't know who did it at first - hmm.

For starters, at first NO ONE knew what was going on. As far as removing the Sauds - a cursory inspection of history will show that the stupid powerhungry Americans were an exception to the rule - we didn't go on a vengeance spree killing arabs. Duh.

History will look at a precedent that the American government invaded a sovereign Nation. No one is saying he's a good guy - and if I were in charge as soon as the guy gassed all those people I would have flattenned the bugger - only when Saddam did that America was giving him the weapons. Obviously Regan gave a rats ass about the 200,000+ people gassed to get a few American out of Iran. Lets give Saddam weapons of mass destruction. Then you wait 2 decades and try and get them back. Bin Laden - has all that money and the capability to hit the trade towers - WHY? because America set him up with all that money and all those weapons.

Aren't yous a member of NATO? What about Bosnia? And international politics is a tough game where the players are ALWAYS changing.

The rest of the world sees and then wonders - Gee everytime you do something it ends up making huge profits for certain people in your country and then creates a hell of mess later.

Do you have rich people in your country? You've got a good stereo - obviously you're doing at least OK, which means to most of the world population you'd be considered stinking rich, which must mean by default that your every action is to get more money.

The world system in place was largely created by the US and is certainly policed by it, at a VERY LARGE expense. It has lead to the greatest general prosperity that has EVER existed. Wow. That's one hell of a mess.

Of course, the bad guys out there are bad because of our actions.

On the one hand I'm glad America went in and took down Saddam - and the Taliban. But I'd much rather you not set those guys up in the first place - and use American guns and gas to kill people - I realize capitalism is all about profit and a CEO would rather kill a million people to make $4.8 billion a month rather than a paultry 4.7999 billion a month - but please don't tell me that this system is "Good." It may look it - but Goebbles made it look like Germany was running smoothly.

Athough I doubt that you couldn't find a few, I think you're pulling a Moore with the "kill a million people" for a paltry sum.

As Churchill said, Democracy is the absolute worst form of Gov't, except for all other forms ever tried. Capitalism is the same, we've got more MRI scanners in the greater Cleveland area (AND they're available to the poor), than a whole large wealthy unnamed country, that has a Socialist medical system.

Pete

[Bryan]

What is neccessary and needed at the time isn't always what is the best thing to do. Hindsight is 20/20 and foresight about 10/1000 if your lucky.

Dropping the atomic bombs was neccessary in order to stop WWII. All that people seem to want to remember is the US dropped them on Japan. They forget the reason behind it. The Japanese are a determined people and would have eventually succeeded in invading the US. The first atomic bomb shocked them. The second broke their spirit and resolve.

What has the US historically done with countries and places we have blown to kingdom come? We go back and rebuild them. Germany, Japan, Afghanistan, and Iraq are all examples.

Where would the world be without the discovery of America? Would it be better off or worse off?

If you wish to blame the USA for the ills of the world then you can take aim at Columbus and the Spanish government for they financed his journey.

[Woochifer]

The film was enjoyable - if all it does is get people voting and arguing and TALKING about issues instead of sports teams and reality tv shows your country and all countries are better for it. You have the most powerful country in the world which affects MY country and the rest of the planet - And for this I would at least hope that those of you in your country would spend a few minutes and VOTE. If not for your sakes then the rest of the world's. When people look at Bush as a dictator who stole the election with the help of Jeb and fellow cronies - whether it's true or not if the other half of the voting public had actually voted we might not be complaining.

Believe it or not, the last election was one of the highest voter turnouts in recent decades. Unfortunately, not enough people look at voting as a civic responsibility. If anything, the Watergate scandal fundamentally changed the public perception of politics. It's always been a dirty business, but the level of cynicism that the scandal brought forth has poisoned the waters ever since.

The voting process here is so much easier and when all that hanging chad crap happened I was thinking - "why not start again" a "Do Over" especially in a close race.

Because if Florida in particular did a revote, Al Gore would have won. Every poll (except for the one from Fox News) that the major news organizations did had Al Gore winning. Knowing a little bit about statistical validation procedures, it's very hard for that kind of statistical consensus to be wrong unless you have other intervening factors. And those factors we now know all too well -- hanging chads, butterfly ballots resulting in an abnormally large vote for Pat Buchanan in one county, voters getting purged off rolls, etc.

Most people who don't vote are I bet are the poorer parts of your country - and most of them probably vote Left.

And as an aside have you seen what has gone on in Florida lately about the thousands of people left off the voters list - and the percentage of them who are Black Democrats. Shocking in my opinion and something that adds more fuel to a conspiracy fire.

Most politicians have a vested interest in preserving the status quo. Anything that expands the voter registrations and potentially shifts the demographics of the voter pool threatens the status quo. That's why all these ideas that would make voting easier, such as "motor voter" laws that place registration cards with drivers license renewals, and on-site same day voter registration get shot down. The typical reasons are that it's too complicated, too expensive, too much potential for trouble, etc.

That status quo is also why the two major parties have such a vested interest in keeping third parties from emerging. It certainly keeps things more stable and less chaotic than a multiple party coalition-based parliamentary system, but it also ensures that a very large segment of the voting population will remain underrepresented.

[Lord_Magnepan]

What is neccessary and needed at the time isn't always what is the best thing to do. Hindsight is 20/20 and foresight about 10/1000 if your lucky.

Dropping the atomic bombs was neccessary in order to stop WWII. All that people seem to want to remember is the US dropped them on Japan. They forget the reason behind it. The Japanese are a determined people and would have eventually succeeded in invading the US. The first atomic bomb shocked them. The second broke their spirit and resolve.

What has the US historically done with countries and places we have blown to kingdom come? We go back and rebuild them. Germany, Japan, Afghanistan, and Iraq are all examples.

Where would the world be without the discovery of America? Would it be better off or worse off?

If you wish to blame the USA for the ills of the world then you can take aim at Columbus and the Spanish government for they financed his journey.

I dont agree that the US rebuilds his countrys. Yes they did help Germany, but you guys sure didnt do very much to us. Same as Afghanistan, they still have no electricity or running water. All the homes and cities are gone. The US left Afghanistan becuase it was very unstable very fast. Same situation in Iraq, there are suicide bombings almost everyday, most of the Iraqis say that the US should leave them. The majority doesnt want the US in there. And Bush knew that more americans were against "staying" in Iraq so he uses this moment to chicken out of there and leaves the country with some troops and no running ifrastructure because it was bombed. Arent elections sometimes soon?

Before the US invaded Iraq there were far less "suicide bombings", and a lot of less soldiers killed. Noone every reported any threat from Iraq for a long time, but the Bush administration simply wanted to bring down Iraq and made up reasons and false facts about the threat of "Terrorism and used the shock from 9/11 in order to go over the NATO to get what they want. This was wrong and noone in the great US ever aknowledges it.


PS: I have my own opinion, as do all others. The world supposely created from the US is not save. I just wait for the next war against North Korea, and more sleepers to wake up and terrorize the entire western world which was created by the US. Thanks guys, great job!!

[piece-it pete]

I dont agree that the US rebuilds his countrys. Yes they did help Germany, but you guys sure didnt do very much to us. Same as Afghanistan, they still have no electricity or running water. All the homes and cities are gone. The US left Afghanistan becuase it was very unstable very fast. Same situation in Iraq, there are suicide bombings almost everyday, most of the Iraqis say that the US should leave them. The majority doesnt want the US in there. And Bush knew that more americans were against "staying" in Iraq so he uses this moment to chicken out of there and leaves the country with some troops and no running ifrastructure because it was bombed. Arent elections sometimes soon?

Before the US invaded Iraq there were far less "suicide bombings", and a lot of less soldiers killed. Noone every reported any threat from Iraq for a long time, but the Bush administration simply wanted to bring down Iraq and made up reasons and false facts about the threat of "Terrorism and used the shock from 9/11 in order to go over the NATO to get what they want. This was wrong and noone in the great US ever aknowledges it.


PS: I have my own opinion, as do all others. The world supposely created from the US is not save. I just wait for the next war against North Korea, and more sleepers to wake up and terrorize the entire western world which was created by the US. Thanks guys, great job!!

No, we don't rebuild countries. The Marshall Plan cost us (that's American taxpayers)almost 12 BILLION dollars, that's 1950 dollars, including $1,173,700,000 to Germany, and that was a GRANT, not a loan. Even the "liberal" Nobel guys gave him the Peace Prize.

And we're supposed to build an entire infrastructure where there wasn't one before? To a country that had just attacked us so cowardly? World history says we would have wiped them off the map. Fortunately for the Afgans, we're not like 99% of countries that have existed from time to time.

We're still in Afganistan.

If you guys stepped up to world security, by funding your army at the same percentage level we do, you'd have a lot more say in what happens. Also, what's this about a inquiry into the Iraqi oil-for-food program?

As far as the world being "safe", I respectfully suggest you read a history book outside of your schools.

Pete

[piece-it pete]

BTW, that 12 billion in 1950 would be, adjusted for inflation, over

**NINETY-ONE BILLION** today, almost 9 billion to Germany.

Pete

[Bryan]

We bombed Afghanistan into the stone age. They were below it before and now are better off. All the homes and cities? Every single one? Not hardly. We were in Germany and helped rebuild it. What about Japan?

In terms of suicide bombings, it is not the majority of Iraqi people. Most of the Iraqis are happy to have us there as a stabilizing presence. Yet even they know we do not plan on staying. We do the job and get out. Rebuilding their infrastructure would go alot faster without extremists doing suicide bombings. Leaving would be much easier than staying and finishing the job. Additionally, we are trying to introduce democracy into a country that had a dictatorship. Changing an entire political system and the way a population views their government takes time. It takes many years. This is not something you can do overnight. How about putting that into your perspective? Even after elections are held we will remain there. We want to ensure a stable government and police force are in place prior to pulling out. This is never was intended on being a quick fix. Our soldiers would characterize this as a failure if we left soon without finishing the job.

This war on terrorism is one that will not be fought in traditional manners. If you think it will be you are sadly mistaken. What 9/11 did was wake up the US to the other dangers in the world, mainly terrorists who only want to see the destruction of this nation.

Lest we forget the eastern world had its share of terrorists even without the US and our "western world". When will you wake up and realize we are not the problem? Sure, we do mess up but we also try and make things right. Open your eyes and see the big picture rather than focus soley on the "evil USA".

[piece-it pete]

Unfortunately, not enough people look at voting as a civic responsibility.

No kidding. I once read an immigrants' guide to being naturalized written in 1934 - it said the FIRST duty of an American citizen is to vote.

Because if Florida in particular did a revote, Al Gore would have won. Every poll (except for the one from Fox News) that the major news organizations did had Al Gore winning. Knowing a little bit about statistical validation procedures, it's very hard for that kind of statistical consensus to be wrong unless you have other intervening factors. And those factors we now know all too well -- hanging chads, butterfly ballots resulting in an abnormally large vote for Pat Buchanan in one county, voters getting purged off rolls, etc.

You know, Buchanan appeals to a LOT of older folks.

Anyway, the whole Florida thing:

...the Miami Herald, which yesterday said that if the recounts had been allowed to continue, then "under almost all scenarios, Bush still would have won." The particulars are as follows: Bush officially won by 537 votes. If Gore’s more liberal counting standard prevailed and all dimpled and hanging chads had been counted, then the Bush lead jumps to 1,665. If dimples only count where other races are dimpled (which would suggest a uniform error by the voter or by the machine, rather than a voter changing his or her mind before perforating the chad), then the Bush lead is 884. If two corners of the chad must be perforated, this being the predominant standard for recounts throughout the country, then the lead is 363. Finally, if only clean punches count, then Gore wins by 3 votes.
__________

The National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago conducted the six-month study for a consortium of eight news media companies, including CNN.

Florida Supreme Court recount ruling

On December 12, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Florida Supreme Court ruling ordering a full statewide hand recount of all undervotes not yet tallied. The U.S. Supreme Court action effectively ratified Florida election officials' determination that Bush won by a few hundred votes out of more than 6 million cast.

Using the NORC data, the media consortium examined what might have happened if the U.S. Supreme Court had not intervened. The Florida high court had ordered a recount of all undervotes that had not been counted by hand to that point. If that recount had proceeded under the standard that most local election officials said they would have used, the study found that Bush would have emerged with 493 more votes than Gore.

Gore's four-county strategy

Suppose that Gore got what he originally wanted -- a hand recount in heavily Democratic Broward, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties. The study indicates that Gore would have picked up some additional support but still would have lost the election -- by a 225-vote margin statewide.

_________________________

RGA, a LOT of people don't vote, not just here, but worldwide.

Most politicians have a vested interest in preserving the status quo. Anything that expands the voter registrations and potentially shifts the demographics of the voter pool threatens the status quo. That's why all these ideas that would make voting easier, such as "motor voter" laws that place registration cards with drivers license renewals, and on-site same day voter registration get shot down. The typical reasons are that it's too complicated, too expensive, too much potential for trouble, etc.

Agreed. The smaller the voter pool is the easier it is to manipulate. This is why it would be better, IMHO, if everyone voted, even if they just guess.

That status quo is also why the two major parties have such a vested interest in keeping third parties from emerging. It certainly keeps things more stable and less chaotic than a multiple party coalition-based parliamentary system, but it also ensures that a very large segment of the voting population will remain underrepresented.

"less chaotic" may be an understatement. Look at the Italian Parliment. "Winner take all" has worked very well for us.

Just my .02 (or is it up to .50 by now ?? )

Pete

[FLZapped]

Gore's four-county strategy

Suppose that Gore got what he originally wanted -- a hand recount in heavily Democratic Broward, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties. The study indicates that Gore would have picked up some additional support but still would have lost the election -- by a 225-vote margin statewide.

Just my .02 (or is it up to .50 by now ?? )

Pete

Isn't it interesting that Gore never gets accused of trying to hijack the election process over this strategy?

If I remember correctly, at least three newspapers here have since recounted the vote independantly of each other and Bush won every time.

Another forgotten fact is that the infamous "butterfly ballot" was designed by Democrats for Democrats who run the election office in West Palm Beach.

Of course, the whole Florida thing would have been moot had Gore carried his own territorial area........starting with his home state.

And we can't forget that the purging of felons from the voter roles suddenly became disenfranchizement....

-Bruce
(A registered Demo who thinks Gore is a cry baby and Kerry is so Scary!)

[piece-it pete]

Bruce,

I think it was Kansas ? where they actually had all the paperwork for a lawsuit all typed up, found someone willing to be the plantiff, didn't even have time to fill in the "he/she" and "him/her".

What gets me the most about youse Dems is WHERE IS A STRONG CANDIDATE?? You'd probably win, with Bush not a strong speaker, and it's better for all of us when both candidates are good. Keeps the parties on their toes.

If Kerry loses this one, what's '08 going to be? Powell vs Hillary ? Now THAT'S a race!!

Pete

[FLZapped]

Bruce,

I think it was Kansas ? where they actually had all the paperwork for a lawsuit all typed up, found someone willing to be the plantiff, didn't even have time to fill in the "he/she" and "him/her".

What gets me the most about youse Dems is WHERE IS A STRONG CANDIDATE?? You'd probably win, with Bush not a strong speaker, and it's better for all of us when both candidates are good. Keeps the parties on their toes.

If Kerry loses this one, what's '08 going to be? Powell vs Hillary ? Now THAT'S a race!!

Pete

OUCH! Pete, you're making my head hurt......I'm so sick of all the campaigning. The heck with campaign finance reform, limit the campaigning season to 6 months prior to the election!

I'm pretty disgusted with the Demos. They seem to have been overrun with outright socialists at the national level, with King Teddy as their leader. And what is even worse is that folks in the party don't seem to think it's a bad thing that Kerry has the endorsement of France and Germany......France(a socialist government) alone should scare the hell out of them, in my opinion. But it seems all to boil down to sour grapes about 2000 and a real hatred for Bush on a personal level, to hell with what may actually be best for the country...no thought seems to have been put into that, the way I see it.

I agree, Bush isn't an eloquent speaker, although from time-to-time, he has come up with some real zingers. The other day, right after Edwards was announced a reported asked him what the difference was between the Cheney and Edwards, and he immediately shot back that Cheney could be president - taking a que from Kerry's earlier statements regarding his now seemingly spotless running mate......anyway......

I'd be really happy to see a strong third party contender for a change. (No, I'm not thrilled with the Repubs either, you should see the blatently un-constitutional state law they pushed through here to "protect" the orange industry.) Nader is just another socialist when you get right down to it. So why anyone would want to trade one extremist for another is beyond me. To each their own, I suppose.

How about Hillary and Condi going at it? Let's throw in Jessie "The Body" Ventura as an indie to make it interesting.....now pass the extra strength aspirin, please.....

BTW - It has been my observation that any serious political sniping along party lines doesn't begin until the state level and and takes a quantum leap at the national level. You see it that way?

-Bruce
(Kerry is so Scary!)

[piece-it pete]

Bruce,

I grew up in (and still live in) an overwhelmingly Dem county (Kusinich is one of our areas' reps), sometimes the GOP doesn't even run candidates here, so I can't speak to the local issue. On the individual level, though, that hated of Bush shows through. However, the county treasurer is currently going through a wife beating thing (again! I think he's finished this time) and the head of the GOP office is being very nice (like, he has flashes of brilliance but you can't beat women). Partisan, but nicely. Maybe you're right.

I hear you about the "new" Dems. I knew some New Deal Democrats (all dead now )and, though we had fundamental differences, they were generally capitalists and really, truly wanted to make a difference, not just tear down the system.

Bush can be good, it seems when he's comfortable, and sometimes connects with people. I just wish he'd make a better effort at explaining our foriegn policy, I realise there are things he can't say 'cause of the world press but believe he's still too low key. I also worry that the GOP is not taking this election seriously enough, that there's not enough effort at the lower levels.

The GOP rules Ohio, and to me has this same problem, the worst example is legalized gambling, it has gone to the ballot 3 times. 3 times it was soundly defeated, but try to keep policitians away from money!! Their backroom attempts to pass it anyway, like midnight votes! Cronyism, jeez, it's bad. I'm not arguing for or against, but the people have clearly spoken, they must be hard of hearing. Just why I wish the Dems could come up with at least a strong contender...

Hillary/Condi.... wrestling! No, boxing! THAT would put up some impressive ratings lol! Jesse could run with that prostitute that ran for Gov. in California as the vp. The body and the body.

I'll take a Guiness or two with that aspirin.

Pete

[FLZapped]

Jesse could run with that prostitute that ran for Gov. in California as the vp. The body and the body.

WOWZERS Batman! Well, I dunno, Larry Flint might get her on his "ticket" first......I think we're working our way up to the Kentucky stuff at this point to wash that aspirin down!

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

BTW - Have you been following our adventures with the Broward County Elections Supervisor? (The infamous county in which I reside)

She was finally suspended after missing an election. Now she is suing to get her job back. The report on her ineptitude was seven pages long, can you imagine! And then to have the unmitigated gall to think she deserves her job back! Thankyou, but I'll keep Brenda Snipes, she's done an amasing job of getting that office back on track.

Uhm, I just couldn't resist this next one any longer....speaking about the Cali election:

If Gary Colemen and that prostitute were on the same ticket, would they run as the Stump and the Hump?

(I know, massive groans)

If memory serves me correctly, the Italian Parliment had a female Porno Star elected to a term a while back.

-Bruce
(I think we're up to Wild Turkey now, wanna try for Moonshine?))

[RGA]

Yes, the Indian culture was very successful, at both supplying the needs of their citizens and protecting their culture. Aren't you living on their land, enjoying the fruits of their natural resources? Evil, hateful. Or hypocritical?

We are in the process of making reparations - there is not much I can do being born on this particular land. And these people also know this.

Yes, like many still do the Reds needed to destroy the authority of the Church because it was in their way.

True one dictatorship wants to stop the religious dictatorship that ruled the though process of their people.

Many of the signers of the Constitution despised slavery. They, like Lincoln, believed the Union was more important than a single issue. We fixed this, with our blood.

That may be so - not much use having a document that sounds good and to which no one follows. The Final solution was not written down and detailed but everyone knew what was the "goal."

Vietnam was in keeping with our stated policy of containment. If you read American historians writing about American history you would know that it was considered at the time to be SE Asias' breadbox, we were concerned that if Vietnam fell it would mean the Communization of most of SE Asia, including Japan. If you don't want to call vicious, bloody dictators supported by Communist dictators Communist, that's fine. There were no boat people coming from Vietnam before they took over.

Call it what you like this is the doimino theory. A theory that when one nations fell to communism the next and the next would fall like dominos. But Vietnam would never have been communist if it were not FOR THE US and FRANCE. Then blaming them for wanting freedom by getting supplies from China et al is ridiculous - and not realizing the differences amongst communism - it ain''t all the same - was another fatal mistake. And there were those who noted that at the time that Vietnam and China would NEVER ever have become any sort of coalition.

And please clue me in - what was our financial reason for keeping Vietnam under our Capitalist heel?

No this was the other reason - American paranoia over the domino theory - which would have negative impact on future finances no doubt but in this case just paranoia.

Stalin said the LEFT WING was wrong? What about that whole Communist/gulag thing?

Please this is as far from what Marx intended as it can possibly get. The regime still had a class system anyway you slice it - hierarchies and paranoia of the loss of power. All of which Marx never intended but for which greed can quicklly ruin - and it did.

For starters, at first NO ONE knew what was going on. As far as removing the Sauds - a cursory inspection of history will show that the stupid powerhungry Americans were an exception to the rule - we didn't go on a vengeance spree killing arabs. Duh.

After the second plane everyone should have known what was going on - except the president who sat around forever with a bunch of shool kids - nice proactive leader. His little dog Bin Laden bit him for some reason - Iraq has nothing whatsoever to do with those planes. Proof? Or is it Guilty until proven innocent? Can't even follow your own rules.

Aren't yous a member of NATO? What about Bosnia? And international politics is a tough game where the players are ALWAYS changing.

My government's incompetance is beside the point. Bodies like the UN and the League of Nations etc are about as corrupt as it gets which are painfully slow at agreeing to anything anyway - all have their own special interests - the point?

Do you have rich people in your country? You've got a good stereo - obviously you're doing at least OK, which means to most of the world population you'd be considered stinking rich, which must mean by default that your every action is to get more money.

No I have credit. I have access to education which will hpefully allow me a chance to have a very nice life. I am very lucky in this regard - and I try like hell to ensure that the things I purchase and the way I live impacts as little as possible on other people and the environment. I do not deliberately need to make billions of dollars on the backs of slave labour. [/QUOTE]

The world system in place was largely created by the US and is certainly policed by it, at a VERY LARGE expense. It has lead to the greatest general prosperity that has EVER existed. Wow. That's one hell of a mess.

It only polices areas that offer a financial GAIN after the expense of policing it however. Who controls all of the contracts of oil in Iraq? Iraq owns the oil after all of this that is true - American companies however are the ones who dictate WHO can buy it and at what price. But Iraq owns it.

Of course, the bad guys out there are bad because of our actions.

Ahh now you're getting it. They would have no reason otherwise.

As Churchill said, Democracy is the absolute worst form of Gov't, except for all other forms ever tried. Capitalism is the same, we've got more MRI scanners in the greater Cleveland area (AND they're available to the poor), than a whole large wealthy unnamed country, that has a Socialist medical system.

Pete

And given the cost to people for such things and OVER testing to compensate for lawsuits and ridiculous insurance costs - you're people don't live as long as Canadians or the Japanese where costs are far lower.

And ask your elderly citizens why they need to come to Canada or Brazil in order to be able to afford their drugs. Incidentally the EXACT same drugs made in the exact same plants - and Canada is NOT subsidizing them - they're worthless. You want to talk about a sham people should not be on here *****ing about cable mark-ups they should be asking why drug companies are using sufferring to turn a tidy profit.

And if all of the poor have all this free access to everything as you claim and can get it without paying - then why would they come to Canada/Mexico/Brazil for drugs?

The population in Canada is smaller than the state of California. But we are spread out over a Country larger than America. It is impractical and impossible to have an MRI machine in every hospital in hick towns. In such circumstances people are flow to the major hospitals with such facilities.

I live in a town of around 90,000 My dad has to go to Victoria about an hour and a half away due to Lung Cancer treatments because the hospital here does not have the orthoscopy machine nor does it have a cancer treatment specialist. While it is a pain to have to make the trip - my dad on his pension gets all of it done free.

My friend's dad went to Las Vegas and had two heart injections while there costing $6,000.00 US for two injections - JUST the drug and 10 minutes to inject - not including the two days in the hosptial. Why is it so expensive because they have to pay for the MRI machine unecessarily placed in every hospital.

[Keith from Canada]

As Churchill said, Democracy is the absolute worst form of Gov't, except for all other forms ever tried. Capitalism is the same, we've got more MRI scanners in the greater Cleveland area (AND they're available to the poor), than a whole large wealthy unnamed country, that has a Socialist medical system. Pete

O.K., I guess I'll have to throw my hat in the ring on this one and note that an MRI in the US is not something that is available to the masses (yes, the poor can get one, they just can't afford one). In terms of the US Health Care System, I would simply point out that OECD studies indicate that, out of 23 industrialized nations, the US ranks 19th in life expectancy, 20th in infant mortality, and has the lowest health care satisfaction rates.

Your privatized system may have sufficient equipment but I'm afraid that in this case, profit takes the lead role over patient care. I for one am quite proud that my country puts people before profits when it comes to the most important social program a country could have.

[piece-it pete]

O.K., I guess I'll have to throw my hat in the ring on this one and note that an MRI in the US is not something that is available to the masses (yes, the poor can get one, they just can't afford one). In terms of the US Health Care System, I would simply point out that OECD studies indicate that, out of 23 industrialized nations, the US ranks 19th in life expectancy, 20th in infant mortality, and has the lowest health care satisfaction rates.

Your privatized system may have sufficient equipment but I'm afraid that in this case, profit takes the lead role over patient care. I for one am quite proud that my country puts people before profits when it comes to the most important social program a country could have.

Keith,

Oh yes they can!

Folks on welfare over here get the best healthcare available, bar none. I for one am ABSOLUTELY ENVIOUS of their benifits, FAR better than mine. Also, anyone can go to any emergency room, they have to take you. If you need an MRI you will get one.

As usual, don't believe the hype.

The big problem here is that the poor folks will not go in for preventitive care, regular checkups, etc.

In merry ole England me merry ole Gran had to wait a year for an appointment for cataracts, and another year for the surgery. Of course she didn't have to pay for it directly.

If you look back through my old posts you will find that I have said stuff like, "That's fine, I'm not slamming anyone, it works for them...." relating to other countries. I have specifically mentioned Canada as a great place that I've always enjoyed. I'm not apologising, just pointing out that I'm not telling you guys what to do, or what's best for you. Your system works for you. Our system works for us. I get (have got, have gotten? ) upset when told by some we (the US) are the last word in evil. I suspect you would too.

Pete

[piece-it pete]

BTW - Have you been following our adventures with the Broward County Elections Supervisor? (The infamous county in which I reside)

She was finally suspended after missing an election. Now she is suing to get her job back. The report on her ineptitude was seven pages long, can you imagine! And then to have the unmitigated gall to think she deserves her job back! Thankyou, but I'll keep Brenda Snipes, she's done an amasing job of getting that office back on track.

Uhm, I just couldn't resist this next one any longer....speaking about the Cali election:

If Gary Colemen and that prostitute were on the same ticket, would they run as the Stump and the Hump?

(I know, massive groans)

If memory serves me correctly, the Italian Parliment had a female Porno Star elected to a term a while back.

-Bruce
(I think we're up to Wild Turkey now, wanna try for Moonshine?))

Bruce,

As much as I love the shine, I'm all out of joke ideas (though I bet if one went back through the candidates for Cal. governor..).

I haven't heard of her suing for her job back. Now we know what to do if we ever lose our jos lol.

Speaking of shine, if you or anyone, even the Dems and Socialists , ever get to this neck of the woods, even passing through, drop me a line and we'll have a shot or two of the finest moonshine West Virginia has to offer (no blindness juice here), and talk about...... well how about stereo equipment??

Pete

[piece-it pete]

We are in the process of making reparations - there is not much I can do being born on this particular land. And these people also know this.

Reparations? For the untold suffering, rape, and death?

True one dictatorship wants to stop the religious dictatorship that ruled the though process of their people.

Whoops, I forgot, the US is now and has been run by a religious dictatorship. "?"

That may be so - not much use having a document that sounds good and to which no one follows. The Final solution was not written down and detailed but everyone knew what was the "goal."

Comparing the Declaration to the final solution? Many died for that document. Willingly.

Call it what you like this is the doimino theory. A theory that when one nations fell to communism the next and the next would fall like dominos. But Vietnam would never have been communist if it were not FOR THE US and FRANCE. Then blaming them for wanting freedom by getting supplies from China et al is ridiculous - and not realizing the differences amongst communism - it ain''t all the same - was another fatal mistake. And there were those who noted that at the time that Vietnam and China would NEVER ever have become any sort of coalition.

You are saying that the Communists were not an imperialistic threat? As far as the "freedom" that bloodthirsty regime in Vietnam imposed, again, why the boat poeple?

No this was the other reason - American paranoia over the domino theory - which would have negative impact on future finances no doubt but in this case just paranoia.

Yes, we were VERY paraniod about the now somehow debunked threat of the USSR. Undoubtably Eastern Europe was somehow our fault, too.

Please this is as far from what Marx intended as it can possibly get. The regime still had a class system anyway you slice it - hierarchies and paranoia of the loss of power. All of which Marx never intended but for which greed can quicklly ruin - and it did.

YOU said, "....Stalin - all presented themselves charismatically and used propaganda the left wing parties were wrong and we will "TAKE ACTION" and not talk about things in a rational manner."

Actually you sound like a Communist sympathiser, here. Hasn't it been discredited in your eyes? Or was it just the implementation??

After the second plane everyone should have known what was going on - except the president who sat around forever with a bunch of shool kids - nice proactive leader. His little dog Bin Laden bit him for some reason - Iraq has nothing whatsoever to do with those planes. Proof? Or is it Guilty until proven innocent? Can't even follow your own rules.

I respect Bush for finishing with the kids. After the second plane all we knew was that we were under attack.

In his 1st tape "Bushs' little dog" said he was fighting to get the infidels out of the holy land - that was US troops in Saudi Arabia, there to loot that country. Right?

My government's incompetance is beside the point. Bodies like the UN and the League of Nations etc are about as corrupt as it gets which are painfully slow at agreeing to anything anyway - all have their own special interests - the point?

You said: "History will look at a precedent that the American government invaded a sovereign Nation." Well guess what - we didn't set the precedent.

No I have credit. I have access to education which will hpefully allow me a chance to have a very nice life. I am very lucky in this regard - and I try like hell to ensure that the things I purchase and the way I live impacts as little as possible on other people and the environment. I do not deliberately need to make billions of dollars on the backs of slave labour.

That credit is based on your ability to repay, available only in a system based on trust and order. It's a shell game in this circumstance. You benifit from the system you hate, and I don't hear you complaining about it. It's OTHER people doing it, not you.

It only polices areas that offer a financial GAIN after the expense of policing it however. Who controls all of the contracts of oil in Iraq? Iraq owns the oil after all of this that is true - American companies however are the ones who dictate WHO can buy it and at what price. But Iraq owns it.

Beepbeep-beeep-beepbeep news flash - not only you are benifiting from it, but people all over the world, including millions of the desperately poor.

Ahh now you're getting it. They would have no reason otherwise.

So, if I shoot my nieghbor, it's someone elses' fault! That's great, I really, really want his stereo .

Well since in your eyes we're bad, who's to blame for that? By your reasoning it MUST be someone else's fault, no personal responsiblity.

And given the cost to people for such things and OVER testing to compensate for lawsuits and ridiculous insurance costs - you're people don't live as long as Canadians or the Japanese where costs are far lower.

And ask your elderly citizens why they need to come to Canada or Brazil in order to be able to afford their drugs. Incidentally the EXACT same drugs made in the exact same plants - and Canada is NOT subsidizing them - they're worthless. You want to talk about a sham people should not be on here *****ing about cable mark-ups they should be asking why drug companies are using sufferring to turn a tidy profit.

And if all of the poor have all this free access to everything as you claim and can get it without paying - then why would they come to Canada/Mexico/Brazil for drugs?

The population in Canada is smaller than the state of California. But we are spread out over a Country larger than America. It is impractical and impossible to have an MRI machine in every hospital in hick towns. In such circumstances people are flow to the major hospitals with such facilities.

I live in a town of around 90,000 My dad has to go to Victoria about an hour and a half away due to Lung Cancer treatments because the hospital here does not have the orthoscopy machine nor does it have a cancer treatment specialist. While it is a pain to have to make the trip - my dad on his pension gets all of it done free.

My friend's dad went to Las Vegas and had two heart injections while there costing $6,000.00 US for two injections - JUST the drug and 10 minutes to inject - not including the two days in the hosptial. Why is it so expensive because they have to pay for the MRI machine unecessarily placed in every hospital.

Our system is expensive - as far as drugs go we are subsidizing R and D. The truly poor in this country don't go to Canada for drugs - they're paid for by people like me. We have tons of MRIs' for convenience sake, and because we loot the world we can afford it. He paid for the quality of care that millions of people travel here for yearly.

Lawsuits are an issue but every time we try to get tort reform passed the Dems scream "it's for the greedy corporations!!"

I will pray for your father, I'm sorry to hear about that. I lost my Grandmother and Aunt to that same terrible disease.

Pete