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    Beheaded

    Has anybody seen the beheading in its entirety. I personally have not nor will I seek it out. Do you think those creeps really beheaded nick berg just because of a few naked prisoners with dog collars on, or were they going to stoop to the lowest end of the totem pole regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam
    Has anybody seen the beheading in its entirety. I personally have not nor will I seek it out. Do you think those creeps really beheaded nick berg just because of a few naked prisoners with dog collars on, or were they going to stoop to the lowest end of the totem pole regardless.

    Just an excuse. This isn't the firsat time of a beheading. Remember the Journalist a little back?
    mtrycrafts

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    Show you how stupid the terrorists are. With the prisoner abuse they were WINNING a battle of publicity - had they not done what they did to Berg they may have managed getting Rumsfeld fired which would have been a sort of victory for the terrorists.

    Now the attention shifts to Berg and the evil-doers(This term makes Bush look like an A$$ avery timne I hear it) and the abuse pales in comparison.

    This entire situation is a mess and it's sad that people are getting in the middle like Berg. Sadly the war on terrorism will be as successful as the war on drugs. Youhave to fight it but you won't ever ever ever win it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Show you how stupid the terrorists are. With the prisoner abuse they were WINNING a battle of publicity - had they not done what they did to Berg they may have managed getting Rumsfeld fired which would have been a sort of victory for the terrorists.

    Now the attention shifts to Berg and the evil-doers(This term makes Bush look like an A$$ avery timne I hear it) and the abuse pales in comparison.

    This entire situation is a mess and it's sad that people are getting in the middle like Berg. Sadly the war on terrorism will be as successful as the war on drugs. Youhave to fight it but you won't ever ever ever win it.

    Hard to win. You have to erase an idealogy which is not likely. Not winnable in out lifetime.
    mtrycrafts

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam
    Has anybody seen the beheading in its entirety.
    I saw it, and it just reaffirms my low opinions of these barbarians.
    Quote Originally Posted by cam
    Do you think those creeps really beheaded nick berg just because of a few naked prisoners with dog collars on, or were they going to stoop to the lowest end of the totem pole regardless.
    The minute they found out that Berg was a Jew, he had a death sentence imposed on him. The prison abuse was just a convenient excuse for them. Berg and Daniel Pearl (the journalist) both had naive impressions that just because you are Jewish and are trying to show Muslims that you want to show acts of friendship, that they will embrace you. Both cases are good examples of what happens when you try to appease terrorists. The hatred is too deep and irrational.
    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycrafts
    Hard to win. You have to erase an idealogy which is not likely. Not winnable in out lifetime.
    But you have to try and you have to try hard. Any backing down on our part is viewed by them as a sign of weakness and a lack of resolve, and that just inspires them to attack more. Surrendering by saying "this is an unwinnable war" is not a viable option. The danger is out there, and if we do nothing but hope that it goes away, we only set ourselves up for more 9/11-style "surprises".
    Last edited by jeskibuff; 05-15-2004 at 04:18 AM.
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    Lightbulb The war can be won!

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Show you how stupid the terrorists are. With the prisoner abuse they were WINNING a battle of publicity - had they not done what they did to Berg they may have managed getting Rumsfeld fired which would have been a sort of victory for the terrorists.

    Now the attention shifts to Berg and the evil-doers(This term makes Bush look like an A$$ avery timne I hear it) and the abuse pales in comparison.

    This entire situation is a mess and it's sad that people are getting in the middle like Berg. Sadly the war on terrorism will be as successful as the war on drugs. Youhave to fight it but you won't ever ever ever win it.
    I know this sounds extreme but whatever! Do any of you guys remember the empire of Japan? The emperor was the living god, hand chosen by god.......The Japanese military had suicide bombers (Kamakazi), Japanese people would kill themselves and their children before surrendering to the US or whomever. Then on August 6th and 9th of 1945 President Truman dealt with the japanese, the only way to deal with people who have this type of mind-set in which we are discussing. Total and complete destruction of two of their cities and ALL OF ITS PEOPLE not just military sites. Now this is not the 1st choice for any president and it wasn't Truman 1st choice either, but if you have to choose between us or them.....well you decide. Total and complete destruction/defeat of both the germans and japanese is what broke their spirits! Not strategical air strikes! All this does is kill just enough people to make the enemy hate us even more. Somehow our country has forgotten what worked in WWII. THIS CAN BE DONE WITHOUT NUCLEAR WEAPONS! I'm not talking about nuclear war in the middle-east, I'm saying either deal with the problem or shutdown the borders completely. No student visas, no work visas! No foreign nationals, only United States Citizens! But this will never happen because people have already lost the emotion of 9-11, and have buried their heads in the sand to the idea that something worse is out there! God Bless America!
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    RGA
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    oakley#36

    The problem is that with Japan it was a bigger threat - since 911 there has been nothing - on American Soil - since. Also there is too much money to be made in Iraq. it's not all to do with oil like the leftists think but then again it has SOMEthing to do with oil no matter how much the righties think. Nuking it will never happen. The people? who cares! But the oil is another matter.

    Terrorist - semantics. Terrorism is just another military - too small and totally outgnned and outnumbered that all they can do is attack the innocents in pot shots. The IRA has been around for how long? You can't stop what you can't find. You have to try I agree. And the IRA are at least not fanaticals - there is at least a viable to reaso to what they're doing - even if we disagree.

    If we had no religions the world be a far better, safer, more logical, place to live - ALL religions including the Christian credit God for everything let the world go to piss because GOd will fix it later philosophy. The Muslim fundamentalists may seem like nut jobs but so does the Thank you God rhetoric Bush spouts -- scares me. Their policy and long held brainwashing of the public is something well learned from Dr. Goebbles(Sp?).

    One look at the North American Education system and funding can lead to other conclusion.

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    No Nukes

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    oakley#36

    The problem is that with Japan it was a bigger threat - since 911 there has been nothing - on American Soil - since. Also there is too much money to be made in Iraq. it's not all to do with oil like the leftists think but then again it has SOMEthing to do with oil no matter how much the righties think. Nuking it will never happen. The people? who cares! But the oil is another matter.

    Terrorist - semantics. Terrorism is just another military - too small and totally outgnned and outnumbered that all they can do is attack the innocents in pot shots. The IRA has been around for how long? You can't stop what you can't find. You have to try I agree. And the IRA are at least not fanaticals - there is at least a viable to reaso to what they're doing - even if we disagree.

    If we had no religions the world be a far better, safer, more logical, place to live - ALL religions including the Christian credit God for everything let the world go to piss because GOd will fix it later philosophy. The Muslim fundamentalists may seem like nut jobs but so does the Thank you God rhetoric Bush spouts -- scares me. Their policy and long held brainwashing of the public is something well learned from Dr. Goebbles(Sp?).

    One look at the North American Education system and funding can lead to other conclusion.
    Like I said, we don't need nukes in the picture to accomplish total destruction of their spirit. However this strategical strike BS is a waste. The problem is this and its not education; the USA has about 2-3 generations now that don't deal with their problems. They go to doctors who tell them its somebody else fault, tell them its a disease and put them on some Rx. My generation is one of the ones I'm talking about. Now these people we're fighting with are not like this. Plan and simple, they are willing to go farther than we even like to think ie., Dying for something they believe in, total sacrifice for ones country. Americans have technology and 2 oceans that protect us from most of our enemies. However our biggest enemy is our Baby-boomer parents and our Generation X Friends. I agree with alot of the things you have said my Canadian Friend. I love my country but there is too many of us that have never had to sacifice anything for what we have today. And in this HARD world that makes us SOFT! All we can do is vote for change when it is needed, and teach our children the values that made our grandparents and their parents generations great!
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakley#36
    I know this sounds extreme but whatever! Do any of you guys remember the empire of Japan? The emperor was the living god, hand chosen by god.......The Japanese military had suicide bombers (Kamakazi), Japanese people would kill themselves and their children before surrendering to the US or whomever. Then on August 6th and 9th of 1945 President Truman dealt with the japanese, the only way to deal with people who have this type of mind-set in which we are discussing. Total and complete destruction of two of their cities and ALL OF ITS PEOPLE not just military sites. Now this is not the 1st choice for any president and it wasn't Truman 1st choice either, but if you have to choose between us or them.....well you decide. Total and complete destruction/defeat of both the germans and japanese is what broke their spirits! Not strategical air strikes! All this does is kill just enough people to make the enemy hate us even more. Somehow our country has forgotten what worked in WWII. THIS CAN BE DONE WITHOUT NUCLEAR WEAPONS! I'm not talking about nuclear war in the middle-east, I'm saying either deal with the problem or shutdown the borders completely. No student visas, no work visas! No foreign nationals, only United States Citizens! But this will never happen because people have already lost the emotion of 9-11, and have buried their heads in the sand to the idea that something worse is out there! God Bless America!

    Ah, but you were fighting a county and its military. Terrorists are individuals with a fanatical religious idea, no real country to attack or its army to wipe the floor with. Israel almost defeated the whole mid east and look where it is today, terror around every bus stop.

    Is there an end in site in the former Yugoslavia after 10 years +? While different, they are fighting for an ethnic cause.
    mtrycrafts

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Ah, but you were fighting a county and its military. Terrorists are individuals with a fanatical religious idea, no real country to attack or its army to wipe the floor with. Israel almost defeated the whole mid east and look where it is today, terror around every bus stop.

    Is there an end in site in the former Yugoslavia after 10 years +? While different, they are fighting for an ethnic cause.
    Iran has an army, and don't believe the media when they say these people are the minority. Just go there yourselves to find out how widespread the hatred is in Iran or Syria. But I'd rather just see us shut down our borders completely, and stop trying to police the world. If countries want to kill there people or starve the population, O'Well! Sorry, we don't care!
    THIN THE HERD!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Israel almost defeated the whole mid east and look where it is today, terror around every bus stop.
    Israel HAS the capability of ending the terror, but doesn't have the resolve. Like the U.S., it is mainly a 2-party government, the Labor and Likud parties, liberal and conservative, respectively. The Labor party insists that there's a way to negotiate peace with terrorists. The Likud (used to) believe that a firm action and strong hand is the way to deal with them. So, Israel is divided as to how to deal with Palestinian terrorists.

    The strongarm approach is the only way that will work. When the terrorists are appeased, they are only inspired to fight more and to acquire more. Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon is the best example of this. But, when they are overwhelmingly defeated, they begin to question their leadership and consider the road to peace instead of continuing with a destructive terrorist agenda. Israel's incursion into Jenin and Ramallah in the spring of 2002 was the best example of this. They began to question Arafat's leadership, but that should have happened long before then. Israel eventually pulled out, but that again was a gullible move. They should've kept the pressure on until Palestinians began to unearth and expose the terrorist network. Instead, Israel just screws up again, doing things like releasing hundreds of prisoners in exchange for a few Israeli prisoners.

    Advantage: Palestinians... they have a unified voice. If you don't like the terrorist methodology, you will be killed, plain and simple.

    Disadvantage: Israel...listens to two opposing viewpoints, often succumbing to the methodology that SHOULD be rational, but doesn't work with irrational terrorists. Factor in the little tidbit that Israel allows Palestinians as members of its government and you have even more ways that Israel is weakened. Ah, but that IS the price of freedom and democracy, isn't it?
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    Red face How right you are!

    Quote Originally Posted by jeskibuff
    Israel HAS the capability of ending the terror, but doesn't have the resolve. Like the U.S., it is mainly a 2-party government, the Labor and Likud parties, liberal and conservative, respectively. The Labor party insists that there's a way to negotiate peace with terrorists. The Likud (used to) believe that a firm action and strong hand is the way to deal with them. So, Israel is divided as to how to deal with Palestinian terrorists.

    The strongarm approach is the only way that will work. When the terrorists are appeased, they are only inspired to fight more and to acquire more. Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon is the best example of this. But, when they are overwhelmingly defeated, they begin to question their leadership and consider the road to peace instead of continuing with a destructive terrorist agenda. Israel's incursion into Jenin and Ramallah in the spring of 2002 was the best example of this. They began to question Arafat's leadership, but that should have happened long before then. Israel eventually pulled out, but that again was a gullible move. They should've kept the pressure on until Palestinians began to unearth and expose the terrorist network. Instead, Israel just screws up again, doing things like releasing hundreds of prisoners in exchange for a few Israeli prisoners.

    Advantage: Palestinians... they have a unified voice. If you don't like the terrorist methodology, you will be killed, plain and simple.

    Disadvantage: Israel...listens to two opposing viewpoints, often succumbing to the methodology that SHOULD be rational, but doesn't work with irrational terrorists. Factor in the little tidbit that Israel allows Palestinians as members of its government and you have even more ways that Israel is weakened. Ah, but that IS the price of freedom and democracy, isn't it?
    When faced with a mean dog you can do one of two things; run away and it will chase you down and attack you. Or stare it down daring the animal to attack, and if it chooses to attack make it wish it was never born! You don't give in to attacks or aggression. The Iranian Government since I can remember has done everything in its power to cause death, destruction, and use terrorism as a tool against the U.S.A. and Israel. IMHO they are the heart beat for islamic terrorism. But yet we go to war with Iraq? Iraq has ties with terrorism? Am I the only person who remembers the American Hostages in Iran 1979-1980? How about the U.S.M.C. barracks bombed in 1983? Or the American and British Hostages during the War in Lebanon? There are many others, too many to list here. Some how though, I don't remember Iraq doing this to Americans. It was the Iranian Government/islamic radicals that declared war when they invaded our sovern territory called the United States Embassy in Tehran in 1979. You are very right about the points you've made, I'm just venting! I think I need to purchase some really expensive A/V Stuff now! LOL
    THIN THE HERD!

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    I agree with most of it - where the U.S. government falls apart is they are trying to police the worng things - starting with their own companies. There is no doubt in my mind that companies not voters or politicians run the U.S. Instead of reactionary policing of Afghanistand and Iraq they should stat by not SELLING countries like Iraq all the weapons they evenually use to kill Americans.

    It's an odd country from a Canadian perspective because on the one hand people decry gun violence and get into long debates about the right to bare arms blah blah - but there is only two purposes to owning a gun 1) Hunting and few do that and 2) to kill people. Self defense is a bogus claim and any one who actually has been anywhere in the world knows it. But the media plays on your fears that a big Black man is going to come into your house and kill your kids and put your dog in a blender and the cat int he microwave so everyone adds a bit of paranoia onto the fear cake.

    Dying from terrorism is about far less likely than dying in a plane crash if you live in the US. But they invest billions on home land security. Canada instilled the War Measures act when Quebec terrorists (PLQ) kidnapped and killed a politician in a few decades back. The War measures act allowed police to pick anyone up for any reason and search homes with no warrants. Basically the government takes over as supreme dictatorship in an emergency as deemed by who else? the government.

    The day the US caught Saddam Hussein your government also passed some sweeping governmental powers that nobody paid the slightest attention to because it was Saddam captured day. Governments want to keep the public's eye off the ball. Was Saddam an Imminant threat? To who - certainly not the US. US interests perhaps.

    There is way more going on behind the scenes and the media is all too happy to make an issue seem worse than it really is - if you're afraid of it you'll react - even if the fear has no basis in fact.

    It's impossible to side with Israel or Palestine - I understand the case both sides make - but nothing will get done if you're in talks and suicide bombers keep killing civilians. Then Israel reacts which is understandable. Israel is paranoid but then Jews have a reason to be after WWII and forever before and after then. So asking them to leave a militarily secure position to a group of people that would like to see ALL Jews gassed is not paranoia it's a truth. The US does a non star trek thing by supplying both sides with money and guns to no doubt huge interest rates. War is a good money maker after all.

    Stop supplying gns and making nice side deals with the likes of Bin laden and Saddam in the first place. Ohh and France complains not for altruistic reasons but because they have a nice money making Nuke deal with Saddam - of course they didn't want Saddam cut down - he's big money to France and Germany. And Canada supported France because our Prime minister's Daughter was going out with the France PMs son or some such thing. Besides here you'll get more votes if you lean left - and technically if you are an objectivist you do need actual proof of guilt before you string em up. Something America says but does not actually follow through with - and while I'm happy to see Saddam taken down - unfortunately it is the reason and lack of evidence that makes America's values look questionable.

    Like a prime directive you ignore to use another Star Trekism. It all turns out well in the end due to some nice writing - life as it is turning out needs a better script writer.

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    Forum Regular depressed's Avatar
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    Very good post, RGA.
    First of all, let me tell you a little about me. I'm from Bosnia, a country that America brought piece to and gave $7.000.000.000 in foods and other funds to Bosnia and huge political efforts to stop the killing. I was 15 years old, my sister was 7 when the war started in 1992. Me, my mother and my sister were detained and tortured for months in a Serbian improvised camp in the suburbs of the capital, Sarajevo. We escaped after 2 months and fled to the territory controlled by our Army. While the entire European Community watched the genocide, the U.S was attempting to help us out.
    In 1995, wonderful F-15 and F-16 jets destroyed the "camp" where I spent the worst time of my life. It was empty at that time, the people, mostly civilians have already been killed.
    Had America just watched and stood by, I would probably be in the trenches fighting or dead. Without America, I most certainly wouldn't be able to devote myself to things like home theater and computers. I came here in august, 2001. Before that, I lived in as a refugee in Germany where I went in 1993 after I got shot in the leg. U.S government, in cooperation with Caritas had immigration plans for detainees, we took advantage of it and we started a new life, a peaceful one. Just one month after we arrived, the terrible thing happened, 9/11. I was concerned how the people would look at us after the tragedy.
    Once I learned what Americans are like, I realized there was no need for such concern.
    I admire Americans for the ability to skip the stereotypes and prejudice and just treat you like a human being that you are. Now, this is a luxury that only Americans can afford. Two oceans and the American spirit separating you from the evil will give you that. Most Americans can't understand what it's like over there. Be happy that you can't. If you live in a country where 1/4 of it's population doesn't know the name of the vice-president, you are living in the right country. Why am I saying that? Population's interest in politics equals problems, more talk about politics=more problems in the country. I know it doesn't sound logical, but that's the way it is. Go look in a random country where it's people talks nothing but politics. You will see poverty, misery and pain.

    It's hard to understand everything that's going on and the media isn't helping at all. I'm pretty fluent in German so occasionally I see the news and opinions from over there, they aren't influenced by the U.S government like the U.S. media is. As for the Israel vs.Palestine conflict, it's impossible to describe it in just a couple of sentences. Going through the last 50 years, you will see a lot of U.S. involvement all across the world. America, in case you forgot, is so powerful that when the U.S government "chooses sides" in a conflict, the party that is joined by the U.S will win, no doubt. For example if you look at Israel and it's maps over the last 70 years or so, you will notice that Israel's territory is three times as big compared to what it was 70 years ago. Cetainly, the Plestines act like fools when it comes to politics, it's all a result of despair

    My point is this: Wars that the aggressor wins, these wars never end. They can be cooled down, but they never stop until the outcome is right. Look up the history, you will find plenty examples. When all hell broke out loose in Bosnia, the entire world was watching and waiting for us to die. Nobody expected that we would survive longer then 2 years. Yet we did, despite all the predictions of crowds of military analysts. You see, the U.K. and France involvement compromised the U.S. plans and the Serbs practically have their own country within Bosnia now. So they are are just killing any movements towards recovering the economy, return of the refugees etc. Their "republic" is on territory where they killed and forced out 65% of the pre-war population. The result: tensions. Unless by some political miracle the Serbian autonomy is removed, there will be war again. And it's going to end the right way this time around. No doubt. Wars end the right way, or they don't end at all.
    Sorry for going off topic, I just tried to make my point why these coflicts still go on after so many years.
    Thanks to 6.1, I now have more tolerance for people breathing down my neck...

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakley#36
    I know this sounds extreme but whatever! Do any of you guys remember the empire of Japan? The emperor was the living god, hand chosen by god.......The Japanese military had suicide bombers (Kamakazi), Japanese people would kill themselves and their children before surrendering to the US or whomever. Then on August 6th and 9th of 1945 President Truman dealt with the japanese, the only way to deal with people who have this type of mind-set in which we are discussing. Total and complete destruction of two of their cities and ALL OF ITS PEOPLE not just military sites.
    Here's one flaw with that logic - Japan was a nation headed by a legitament government who we could target. We took out their cities, crushed their economies and killed their people. It sent a message to nations around the world. Terrorists on the other hand, are scattered all over and cannot be crippled by a bombing in just one nation and killing thousands of people of one nationality. The people/groups who are responsible for terrorism live in different regions and are funded by people all over the world - not just in Iraq. They blend in with society so that you cannot point them out. People tend to forget that fighting a war against a nation is very different from fighting terrorist groups who reside in several different nations. You end up killing the wrong people and making more new enemies.

    Level Iraq and then what are you left with? Extremist groups in Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemin, Palestine, etc who all have even more to add to their hate teachings. It's a guerilla war that we have to battle at the root. We have to get involved with the psychological battle that they're winning with the young impressionable people who they're teaching to hate us and kill innocent people. Religion is a powerful thing - and it can be used to rationalize anything - even killing thousands of people to make a point. Religion is a weapon they're using to their advantage, and we're not going to beat it with bombs and invasions. In my opinion, our bombing Iraq, as people have suggested, will only help their cause and help them gain more support from millions of other sympathetic Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Very good post, RGA.
    First of all, let me tell you a little about me. I'm from Bosnia, a country that America brought piece to and gave $7.000.000.000 in foods and other funds to Bosnia and huge political efforts to stop the killing. I was 15 years old, my sister was 7 when the war started in 1992. Me, my mother and my sister were detained and tortured for months in a Serbian improvised camp in the suburbs of the capital, Sarajevo. We escaped after 2 months and fled to the territory controlled by our Army. While the entire European Community watched the genocide, the U.S was attempting to help us out.
    In 1995, wonderful F-15 and F-16 jets destroyed the "camp" where I spent the worst time of my life. It was empty at that time, the people, mostly civilians have already been killed.
    Had America just watched and stood by, I would probably be in the trenches fighting or dead. Without America, I most certainly wouldn't be able to devote myself to things like home theater and computers. I came here in august, 2001. Before that, I lived in as a refugee in Germany where I went in 1993 after I got shot in the leg. U.S government, in cooperation with Caritas had immigration plans for detainees, we took advantage of it and we started a new life, a peaceful one. Just one month after we arrived, the terrible thing happened, 9/11. I was concerned how the people would look at us after the tragedy.
    Once I learned what Americans are like, I realized there was no need for such concern.
    I admire Americans for the ability to skip the stereotypes and prejudice and just treat you like a human being that you are. Now, this is a luxury that only Americans can afford. Two oceans and the American spirit separating you from the evil will give you that. Most Americans can't understand what it's like over there. Be happy that you can't. If you live in a country where 1/4 of it's population doesn't know the name of the vice-president, you are living in the right country. Why am I saying that? Population's interest in politics equals problems, more talk about politics=more problems in the country. I know it doesn't sound logical, but that's the way it is. Go look in a random country where it's people talks nothing but politics. You will see poverty, misery and pain.

    It's hard to understand everything that's going on and the media isn't helping at all. I'm pretty fluent in German so occasionally I see the news and opinions from over there, they aren't influenced by the U.S government like the U.S. media is. As for the Israel vs.Palestine conflict, it's impossible to describe it in just a couple of sentences. Going through the last 50 years, you will see a lot of U.S. involvement all across the world. America, in case you forgot, is so powerful that when the U.S government "chooses sides" in a conflict, the party that is joined by the U.S will win, no doubt. For example if you look at Israel and it's maps over the last 70 years or so, you will notice that Israel's territory is three times as big compared to what it was 70 years ago. Cetainly, the Plestines act like fools when it comes to politics, it's all a result of despair

    My point is this: Wars that the aggressor wins, these wars never end. They can be cooled down, but they never stop until the outcome is right. Look up the history, you will find plenty examples. When all hell broke out loose in Bosnia, the entire world was watching and waiting for us to die. Nobody expected that we would survive longer then 2 years. Yet we did, despite all the predictions of crowds of military analysts. You see, the U.K. and France involvement compromised the U.S. plans and the Serbs practically have their own country within Bosnia now. So they are are just killing any movements towards recovering the economy, return of the refugees etc. Their "republic" is on territory where they killed and forced out 65% of the pre-war population. The result: tensions. Unless by some political miracle the Serbian autonomy is removed, there will be war again. And it's going to end the right way this time around. No doubt. Wars end the right way, or they don't end at all.
    Sorry for going off topic, I just tried to make my point why these coflicts still go on after so many years.
    Great post. Glad to hear from someone like you and get your viewpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I agree with most of it - where the U.S. government falls apart is they are trying to police the worng things - starting with their own companies. There is no doubt in my mind that companies not voters or politicians run the U.S. Instead of reactionary policing of Afghanistand and Iraq they should stat by not SELLING countries like Iraq all the weapons they evenually use to kill Americans.

    It's an odd country from a Canadian perspective because on the one hand people decry gun violence and get into long debates about the right to bare arms blah blah - but there is only two purposes to owning a gun 1) Hunting and few do that and 2) to kill people. Self defense is a bogus claim and any one who actually has been anywhere in the world knows it. But the media plays on your fears that a big Black man is going to come into your house and kill your kids and put your dog in a blender and the cat int he microwave so everyone adds a bit of paranoia onto the fear cake.

    Dying from terrorism is about far less likely than dying in a plane crash if you live in the US. But they invest billions on home land security. Canada instilled the War Measures act when Quebec terrorists (PLQ) kidnapped and killed a politician in a few decades back. The War measures act allowed police to pick anyone up for any reason and search homes with no warrants. Basically the government takes over as supreme dictatorship in an emergency as deemed by who else? the government.

    The day the US caught Saddam Hussein your government also passed some sweeping governmental powers that nobody paid the slightest attention to because it was Saddam captured day. Governments want to keep the public's eye off the ball. Was Saddam an Imminant threat? To who - certainly not the US. US interests perhaps.

    There is way more going on behind the scenes and the media is all too happy to make an issue seem worse than it really is - if you're afraid of it you'll react - even if the fear has no basis in fact.

    It's impossible to side with Israel or Palestine - I understand the case both sides make - but nothing will get done if you're in talks and suicide bombers keep killing civilians. Then Israel reacts which is understandable. Israel is paranoid but then Jews have a reason to be after WWII and forever before and after then. So asking them to leave a militarily secure position to a group of people that would like to see ALL Jews gassed is not paranoia it's a truth. The US does a non star trek thing by supplying both sides with money and guns to no doubt huge interest rates. War is a good money maker after all.

    Stop supplying gns and making nice side deals with the likes of Bin laden and Saddam in the first place. Ohh and France complains not for altruistic reasons but because they have a nice money making Nuke deal with Saddam - of course they didn't want Saddam cut down - he's big money to France and Germany. And Canada supported France because our Prime minister's Daughter was going out with the France PMs son or some such thing. Besides here you'll get more votes if you lean left - and technically if you are an objectivist you do need actual proof of guilt before you string em up. Something America says but does not actually follow through with - and while I'm happy to see Saddam taken down - unfortunately it is the reason and lack of evidence that makes America's values look questionable.

    Like a prime directive you ignore to use another Star Trekism. It all turns out well in the end due to some nice writing - life as it is turning out needs a better script writer.
    I love getting the Canadian perspective. You always hear some pompous American saying your opinions don't matter, but I think they're refreshing. Truth is, we don't take a look at ourselves from an outside perspective as much as we should. Nice write up.

  18. #18
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    Talking The real enemy is Iran people

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    Here's one flaw with that logic - Japan was a nation headed by a legitament government who we could target. We took out their cities, crushed their economies and killed their people. It sent a message to nations around the world. Terrorists on the other hand, are scattered all over and cannot be crippled by a bombing in just one nation and killing thousands of people of one nationality. The people/groups who are responsible for terrorism live in different regions and are funded by people all over the world - not just in Iraq. They blend in with society so that you cannot point them out. People tend to forget that fighting a war against a nation is very different from fighting terrorist groups who reside in several different nations. You end up killing the wrong people and making more new enemies.

    Level Iraq and then what are you left with? Extremist groups in Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemin, Palestine, etc who all have even more to add to their hate teachings. It's a guerilla war that we have to battle at the root. We have to get involved with the psychological battle that they're winning with the young impressionable people who they're teaching to hate us and kill innocent people. Religion is a powerful thing - and it can be used to rationalize anything - even killing thousands of people to make a point. Religion is a weapon they're using to their advantage, and we're not going to beat it with bombs and invasions. In my opinion, our bombing Iraq, as people have suggested, will only help their cause and help them gain more support from millions of other sympathetic Muslims.
    Look guys, this is just an idea on how to end islamic terrorism. You guy keep responding with the same about Iraq. I'm not for wiping the floor with Iraq. Iran is the pulse of islamic terroism, always has, always will unless they are dealt with. If we don't want to deal with them close the border. Now we all know closing the border is harder than destroying Iran! haha Just an idea now, don't we also sell arms to the Canadian Military? Protect your borders with NORAD, which I know is a joint effort but Please! Are we Americans to blame if all hell brakes loose in Canada? I agree that our arms sales to these people have now come back to haunt us. But most of that was during the cold war (bin ladin, iraq). And believe me if Canada was the lone mega power(military, economic, food) you guys would be hated too. And the little guy would look to you for help. Really though, I'm just a fireman from Ohio trying to raise my kids right. I don't hate muslims, heck I don't even know any. I love Canadian Beer and Hockey, so you guys are cool! I just don't get why these crazy people in the mideast want me and my family dead? Did I take their parking space in front of Krogers one day and not realize it? Thank God for the Net, good healthy debate.
    THIN THE HERD!

  19. #19
    Forum Regular jeskibuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    While the entire European Community watched the genocide, the U.S was attempting to help us out.
    Much like the European community nowadays would have rather watched Saddam continue his genocide rather than helping out, eh? I'm sure there are many Iraqis who will have similar stories to tell in the years to come. It's nice to know that you have been freed from that hostile environment and are now able to live in peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Just one month after we arrived, the terrible thing happened, 9/11. I was concerned how the people would look at us after the tragedy.
    I assume by this statement that you are Muslim. Most Americans don't have a problem with Muslims, even after 9/11, as long as they intend on peacefully coexisting with non-Muslims. The biggest problem I have is that we don't hear much from the Muslim community when it comes to outrage over how radical Muslims have defined Islam to the rest of the world. If people were killing other people in the name of Christianity, you'd better believe that you'd hear from scores of church leaders who would condemn the killing and demonstrate that those people were not doing what Christ taught and what the Bible teaches. Why is there no such condemnation from Muslim clerics? Why did we hear the outrage over the prison scandals from Muslims, but silence on the Nick Berg murder? Why no parades in the streets of Muslims denouncing the actions of the radicals and the presentation of Islam that they proclaim is the "true Islam"?

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    I admire Americans for the ability to skip the stereotypes and prejudice and just treat you like a human being that you are.
    That's what's called "The Golden Rule", treating others as you would like to be treated. Alas, not every American adheres to the rule, but I believe the majority does. It's good to hear that you feel you have been treated fairly.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Population's interest in politics equals problems, more talk about politics=more problems in the country. I know it doesn't sound logical, but that's the way it is.
    I think you've got it backwards. Talking politics does NOT create the problems. The problems that exist are begging for solutions. Political talk is just people expressing how they think those problems should be solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Go look in a random country where it's people talks nothing but politics. You will see poverty, misery and pain.
    Again, the poverty, misery and pain are unacceptable, and solutions must be talked about in order to effectively overcome those problems. If everything was going fine, there'd be nothing to complain about, and no demand for actions to be taken, therefore, less political talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    As for the Israel vs.Palestine conflict, it's impossible to describe it in just a couple of sentences. Going through the last 50 years, you will see a lot of U.S. involvement all across the world. America, in case you forgot, is so powerful that when the U.S government "chooses sides" in a conflict, the party that is joined by the U.S will win, no doubt. For example if you look at Israel and it's maps over the last 70 years or so, you will notice that Israel's territory is three times as big compared to what it was 70 years ago.
    At Israel's birth, they didn't have much support from the U.S. at all. If it wasn't for Chekoslovakia supplying arms at the last minute, they might have lost the 1948 war. But Israel is most responsible for their own success. They labored hard and built a strong nation with that labor. The Palestinians chose a destructive course of action, so they just went downhill and became weaker with each passing year. Almost every single conflict they were defeated, not because of U.S. aid, but because of their own determination to survive. Supposedly, the U.S. has given more financial aid to Palestinians than all their rich neighboring Arab nations have, COMBINED! That money has been squandered with the determination to eradicate Israel. What a waste! Israel still is a small country when compared to her surrounding neighbors. They haven't "gained" 3 times the territory voluntarily or with the help of the U.S. They would gladly retreat from the occupied territories if it meant that peace could be had.
    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Cetainly, the Plestines act like fools when it comes to politics, it's all a result of despair
    It's all a matter of just being foolish, preferring violence to peace. They are responsible for their own poverty and despair. Arafat and the P.A. are many times more responsible for the plight of Palestinians than Israel is. Arafat and P.A. members are wealthy, Arafat supposedly a BILLIONAIRE! How do you justify THAT?

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    My point is this: Wars that the aggressor wins, these wars never end.
    Hopefully that will hold true. Israel was NOT the aggressor in all the wars they fought. The U.S. was NOT the aggressor in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Sorry for going off topic, I just tried to make my point why these coflicts still go on after so many years.
    I can't see how two peoples who have slaughtered each other over a period of years can easily overcome the hatred and need for revenge that is certain to exist and almost impossible to eradicate.

    Finally, "depressed", why the "depressing" moniker? Are you not happy in your new life, enjoying your freedom and the departure from your former existence which was saturated with violence and death?
    Click here to see my system.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular depressed's Avatar
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    First of all, I really like the fact that everyone that stated opinions here had some sense,logic and understing in the posts. Healthy debate.
    @jeskibuff: Thank you for pointing out the "spots" where I didn't state my opinion clearly.

    Yes, I'm a Muslim, but not a proud one these days. I had my doubts about "outing" myself here because I'm ashamed for the works of idiots who claim to be Muslims. And a big BUMP on the following quote:

    "I assume by this statement that you are Muslim. Most Americans don't have a problem with Muslims, even after 9/11, as long as they intend on peacefully coexisting with non-Muslims. The biggest problem I have is that we don't hear much from the Muslim community when it comes to outrage over how radical Muslims have defined Islam to the rest of the world. If people were killing other people in the name of Christianity, you'd better believe that you'd hear from scores of church leaders who would condemn the killing and demonstrate that those people were not doing what Christ taught and what the Bible teaches. Why is there no such condemnation from Muslim clerics? Why did we hear the outrage over the prison scandals from Muslims, but silence on the Nick Berg murder? Why no parades in the streets of Muslims denouncing the actions of the radicals and the presentation of Islam that they proclaim is the "true Islam"?

    You are absolutely right. I can't explain why there were no condemnations of killing Americans by the Muslim community. It would be a huge step towards peace and tolerance. If for nothing else, I love you for noticing this and talking about it. I don't have any explanations to justify the silence in the Muslim community.
    I personally don't belong to any organisations. And never will. I like to keep low profile, not because of fear, because I'm ashamed. If you ask Americans that have been to Bosnia, they can tell you that in Bosnia, we have a "mild" Islam, we tend to go out of our way to get along with others. Ask the Jewish community in Bosnia, if they had any problems with the Muslim population.
    As for the Israel conflict, the U.S. government helped Israel with military and politics. If you look at the last 20 years of that conflict and pretend it was a card game, Israel played it smarter.
    You might have misunderstood me here when you said this: " think you've got it backwards. Talking politics does NOT create the problems. The problems that exist are begging for solutions. Political talk is just people expressing how they think those problems should be solved."

    What I meant is that the level of public interest in politics indicates the amount of problems that country is dealing with. From that point of view, I feel that less interest in politics equals less problems.
    Again, I'm very impressed with everyones opinions and particularly yours, jeskibuff.

    As for the moniker, it's the one I had from dslreports.com, a great site that I joined when I was extremely frustrated with my not-working dsl connection. As I felt depressed when I joined that site, I chose it as my nickname when I asked for help. This site turned out to be great, so I just kept the same nickname. I realize I shouldn't have but...
    I'm not depressed just sad. And tired. Then again, it's monday...
    Thanks for the insights!
    Thanks to 6.1, I now have more tolerance for people breathing down my neck...

  21. #21
    Forum Regular jeskibuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Yes, I'm a Muslim, but not a proud one these days. I had my doubts about "outing" myself here because I'm ashamed for the works of idiots who claim to be Muslims.
    Well, you should be a proud human being, because to me, you express value in your fellow human beings' lives. I personally am glad you "outed" yourself here, because I would like to hear more from people like you. Your voices should be heard as we need to hear more of such disgust for "the works of idiots who claim to be Muslims". The silence almost seems to be a tacit approval, and can only bring apprehension and fear to people like you who live in a country NOT dominated by a Muslim population. These "idiots" need to hear that their interpretation of Islam is not acceptable in the eyes of their fellow Muslims, and especially in the eyes of acknowledged leaders, like the clerics.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    I don't have any explanations to justify the silence in the Muslim community.
    Thank you for your honesty. I'd rather hear this than some lame excuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    in Bosnia, we have a "mild" Islam, we tend to go out of our way to get along with others. Ask the Jewish community in Bosnia, if they had any problems with the Muslim population.
    I know that there are places where Muslims and Jews have coexisted in peace. I think Morocco has had a similar environment, but I believe that has changed recently.
    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    As for the Israel conflict, the U.S. government helped Israel with military and politics. If you look at the last 20 years of that conflict and pretend it was a card game, Israel played it smarter.
    And they needed to play it smarter, out of the necessity to survive. After just emerging from WW II's holocaust, they weren't about to just roll over and let someone else take a whack at exterminating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    I felt depressed when I joined that site, I chose it as my nickname when I asked for help. This site turned out to be great, so I just kept the same nickname. I realize I shouldn't have but...I'm not depressed just sad. And tired.
    Well, if I were you, I'd change it! After emerging from a war environment and given the opportunity to live in freedom, you should have a lot to be thankful for! That's just my opinion of course, take it or leave it!
    Click here to see my system.

  22. #22
    RGA
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    Well of course one reason Israel is uspported by the U.S. is because Isreal is the only country that believes in a democracy relatively the same way that the U.S. does. Aside from any monetary reasons this is one obvious one.

    oakley#36

    Canada is an interesting country militarily - as history shows - that our country has never sustained a big military - though you might be interested to learn that we played a larger role in both World Wars than the U.S. Sound surprising - well I'm from Canada and it surprised the hell out of me. The first world war is obvious but the second war was a shocker.

    Canada does not sustain a military because the entire population of Canada is less than the State of California - and our country is significantly larger than the U.S. In fact if you look at the population mapping Canada looks sorta like Chile (Ie; we all live along the border for the most part in a long strip).

    Canada was never a sustain a big military country because basically we were a British colony. When required we would ramp up a large air force, Navy and military and during both wars we had the highest armaments and sopldier to population ratio of any country and the 2nd or 3rd largest airforce and Navy. Counsidering that America had 10 times the population to build a military that large that fast was impressive.

    Canada's main role in WW2 was to keep the supply lines open to Britain. We had decrepid boats early on and 15 year out of date war ships that went a full 15 knots slower than what the Germans had - not to mention the U-boats. Without that supply line Britain would have fallen a good 2 years before victory.

    The other rather disdainful thing was when our untrained ground forces of 4000 went into Dieppe to the largest slaughter ratio in our history. There were a few hundred Brits and 50 Texas Rangers their to observe. What doid the New York Times say the following day in big bold titling. America and Britain have a succesfful raid on Dieppe.

    First it wasn't successful and America had zero involvement in it anyway - but if textbooks are written like those headlines - and headlines and stories are usually bad everywhere in war as the propaganda machines all tried to make themselves look good - but this is why I say we probably habve no real clue what is going on - -- not for years when you can dig the inconsistancies up.

    There is no rational reason anyone should want to kill Americans. And the other poster noted a truth if you're the big guy people want to take you down. Of course there is a growing fear and it IS justifiable that absolute power corrupts. And America is about as close to Absolute power as it gets.

    Part of that is military but if the whole rest of the world banded together America would be flattened in 24 hours - assuming no nukes. So I don't buy that - but where America does have power is money.

    America is attacked from every agenda party some with good reasons some just nutty reasons. But America Wastes the most. It is not unlike Mary Antoinette when people are starving in the streets and they say they need bread to eat - but there is no bread and she just says "let them eat cake" it is a slap in the face to the poor.

    In every individual country when the desparity gets too great the serfs will fight back against the rich --- well now that has gone global.

    In the Muslim world with their dictators their people have little access to what is really going on and are simply fed what the dictator wants fed. Ohh my friends you have no home and no food because America is stealing it from you - and then they well show pictures of all the fat americans and all the waste (Throwing out food????). Look at those evil Americans.

    Of course what the dictator doesn't tell them is that Evil Dictator set the oil price - America didn't fight it, may have grumbled but PAID it. The billions that cam in could have went to building infrastructure, schools, hospitals, agriculture etc. But NO, the Sultan lets his people starve and buys a fleet of Rolls Royce and makes buildings out of gold.

    The left wing blames America for everything, the religious nuts blame America, the dictator has to blame America or he'll be lynched, and basically America can't defend the accusations because they do indeed waste the most, they sell arms to those countries -- and of course there is corruption in governement. Bush sure doesn't know what it's like t be poor - so why should he give a rats behind? And of course the conspiracy theories have to ensue because Cheney and crew are so closely linked to oil companies themselves that it's inevitable. Nothing makes more profit than oil - not even cables.

    But America is not to blame my friends. America had a revolution to escape what they saw as tyrany - so so can the muslim world. Those countries are esentially 300-400 years behind the West. They still have religion dominating them the way the Kings did in England. Sooner or later enough will be enough and people will realize God in religious form is human made to keep control of the sheep. Until the sheep turn into wolves nothing will change. If all the citizens of Iran got together they could flatten their military and dictator and begin a new.

    America is trying to help because they're worried about the advancement of their own technlogy falling into the hands of the nut jobs. I can't blame them for that. If you hate America so much then why do you keep buying stuff from them? Ahh their money is good enough.

    Like I said before - the worst thing to happen to this planet was the creaation of Man.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular karl k's Avatar
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    Very couragous story... Thank you.

    While I may seem to be a little insensitive here, I do have some questions that require a perspective you are uniquely qualified to answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    First of all, let me tell you a little about me. I'm from Bosnia, a country that America brought piece to and gave $7.000.000.000 in foods and other funds to Bosnia and huge political efforts to stop the killing. I was 15 years old, my sister was 7 when the war started in 1992. Me, my mother and my sister were detained and tortured for months in a Serbian improvised camp in the suburbs of the capital, Sarajevo. We escaped after 2 months and fled to the territory controlled by our Army. While the entire European Community watched the genocide, the U.S was attempting to help us out.
    In 1995, wonderful F-15 and F-16 jets destroyed the "camp" where I spent the worst time of my life. It was empty at that time, the people, mostly civilians have already been killed.
    Had America just watched and stood by, I would probably be in the trenches fighting or dead. Without America, I most certainly wouldn't be able to devote myself to things like home theater and computers.
    Before your world came crashing down in Bosnia, How were americans perceived?(in general, by the general population in the former republic)

    If I recall my 90's media blast, we petitioned the EU to be the backbone of the relief for you guys for a substantial amount of time while you were asking for our direct involvement... How was america perceived at that time?

    Did we conduct ourselves as professionals? Did we do all that was asked of us? Was there anything we could have done differently? Better?


    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    I was concerned how the people would look at us after the tragedy.
    Once I learned what Americans are like, I realized there was no need for such concern.
    I admire Americans for the ability to skip the stereotypes and prejudice and just treat you like a human being that you are.
    We are trying. Still have some issues, but we'll get there.


    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    It's hard to understand everything that's going on and the media isn't helping at all. I'm pretty fluent in German so occasionally I see the news and opinions from over there, they aren't influenced by the U.S government like the U.S. media is.
    How accurate would you say the media is outside the US about the involvement of the US in international politics? How does it compare to our media coverage in terms of perceiption?

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Going through the last 50 years, you will see a lot of U.S. involvement all across the world. America, in case you forgot, is so powerful that when the U.S government "chooses sides" in a conflict, the party that is joined by the U.S will win, no doubt.
    My point is this: Wars that the aggressor wins, these wars never end. They can be cooled down, but they never stop until the outcome is right. Look up the history, you will find plenty examples.
    Concerning Iraq, are we considered the aggressor?

    I do agree with Jeski, a more suitable moniker is in order.
    Karl K.

    The shortest distance between two points is a straight line... in the opposite direction.

  24. #24
    Forum Regular depressed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl k
    While I may seem to be a little insensitive here, I do have some questions that require a perspective you are uniquely qualified to answer.

    Before your world came crashing down in Bosnia, How were americans perceived?(in general, by the general population in the former republic
    Before the war, America was admired for it's power. As far as I remember, nobody hated America. Some people complained about the Hawaiian shirts, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by karl k
    If I recall my 90's media blast, we petitioned the EU to be the backbone of the relief for you guys for a substantial amount of time while you were asking for our direct involvement... How was america perceived at that time?

    Did we conduct ourselves as professionals? Did we do all that was asked of us? Was there anything we could have done differently? Better?
    Just few days before the war started, Bosnia was recognized as an independent country by the U.N. We asked for help and America was the first to initally respond. However, the Serbs had an extremely active lobby and they also had the support of France and the U.K.
    They used the president of France, Francois Mitterrand (at that time) to maneuver their way out of the U.S. involvement and to be able to invade the country. He visited Sarajevo, and by doing that he prevented the U.S. air raids on Serbian positions.
    Here is a map that I uploaded so you can see the entire enviroment.

    I would reccomend that you rent the movie "No Man's Land" if you want to learn about Bosnia. It won an Oscar for the best foreign movie 2 years ago. Here is some info about the movie: http://www.unitedartists.com/nomansland/

    Quote Originally Posted by karl k
    How accurate would you say the media is outside the US about the involvement of the US in international politics? How does it compare to our media coverage in terms of perceiption?
    I would say that there is more insight and they do a god job of presenting diff. points of view. American media just is just "chewing"
    IMO, the American media just tries to deliver "sensational" news and reduces the news to headlines. Personally, I prefer PBS over any other channel when it comes to discussing politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by karl k
    Concerning Iraq, are we considered the aggressor?
    In Europe, unfortunately yes. The most popular opinion is that the U.S. failed to make a good case for the war and didn't make a decent effort to include other countries. The term "coalition forces" is undermined in Europe as it originally included only 2 countries, the U.S and U.K. No findings of weapons of mass destructions also hurts the U.S. image pretty bad. The Europeans don't "buy" helping the Iraqi people as an excuse to invade Iraq.
    The fact that Saddam killed a lot of civilians before this "sudden" U.S. interest in Iraqi people, really gets them going. I read an article recently where it says that Saddam killed more then 5000 Kurds in one day using American WMD 7 or 8 years ago. President Bush isn't taken seriously, his authority was hurt from day one because of all the trouble with the election. Some German TV stations like to roll the clip where the president can be seen spitting on the White House lawn and the TV stations question his knowledge about the Middle East and his ability to use diplomacy to achieve his goals.
    Thanks to 6.1, I now have more tolerance for people breathing down my neck...

  25. #25
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    Unhappy European intervention?

    Quote Originally Posted by depressed
    Before the war, America was admired for it's power. As far as I remember, nobody hated America. Some people complained about the Hawaiian shirts, though.



    Just few days before the war started, Bosnia was recognized as an independent country by the U.N. We asked for help and America was the first to initally respond. However, the Serbs had an extremely active lobby and they also had the support of France and the U.K.
    They used the president of France, Francois Mitterrand (at that time) to maneuver their way out of the U.S. involvement and to be able to invade the country. He visited Sarajevo, and by doing that he prevented the U.S. air raids on Serbian positions.
    Here is a map that I uploaded so you can see the entire enviroment.

    I would reccomend that you rent the movie "No Man's Land" if you want to learn about Bosnia. It won an Oscar for the best foreign movie 2 years ago. Here is some info about the movie: http://www.unitedartists.com/nomansland/


    I would say that there is more insight and they do a god job of presenting diff. points of view. American media just is just "chewing"
    IMO, the American media just tries to deliver "sensational" news and reduces the news to headlines. Personally, I prefer PBS over any other channel when it comes to discussing politics.



    In Europe, unfortunately yes. The most popular opinion is that the U.S. failed to make a good case for the war and didn't make a decent effort to include other countries. The term "coalition forces" is undermined in Europe as it originally included only 2 countries, the U.S and U.K. No findings of weapons of mass destructions also hurts the U.S. image pretty bad. The Europeans don't "buy" helping the Iraqi people as an excuse to invade Iraq.
    The fact that Saddam killed a lot of civilians before this "sudden" U.S. interest in Iraqi people, really gets them going. I read an article recently where it says that Saddam killed more then 5000 Kurds in one day using American WMD 7 or 8 years ago. President Bush isn't taken seriously, his authority was hurt from day one because of all the trouble with the election. Some German TV stations like to roll the clip where the president can be seen spitting on the White House lawn and the TV stations question his knowledge about the Middle East and his ability to use diplomacy to achieve his goals.
    Please, thats our job! Europe loves to make deals with dictators just look at Hitler and Stalin. If Europe isn't deal making they're standing on the sidelines playing they're most loved position " Monday Morning Quarterback". Don't do anything, wait to see what the U.S. does, then disagree with U.S. at all cost. Accept for Britain, their like our mother country so they stand by us no matter what (right or wrong). I love listening to the Germans accuse the U.S. of " War Mongering" What, are they kidding me! The Germans shouldn't be allowed the speak at the U.N. on matters of war for another 100 years. RGA, props to Canada for help in WWI, bigger role than the U.S. in WWII. Think your missing that whole Pacific Theater thing, not to mention Normandy. I know you guys were their fighting too. I very questioned your toughness for a small population.

    I do think that Bush made up his mind about Iraq back in 2000 before he took office. 9-11 just added it to the blank check that Congress signed for war. As for france and their feelings about Americans being cocky, I could care less what france thinks. If it wasn't for Britain, Canada, U.S. they'd be speaking german. Back to the beheading thing, I watched it because its real. Not the watered down news our country feeds us. I know its graphic Peter Jennings, I don't need you to tell me how I should feel. It made my stomach turn listening to that kid scream with fear and pain. I think our country doesn't want us to see those things because they want to control what we think. But that video is real, his fear & pain was real. Those Iraqis at the prison, their pain & disrespect was temporary. But the media loves the next O.J. case, so they'll ride that pony until it drops. People will be forced to watch and hear about the prison abuse for the next 6-12 months. But the media will forget about NIck Berg next week. That is the sad reality! RGA maybe your right about the human race.
    THIN THE HERD!

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