All Americans Out There

[cam]

Are you guys sick of seeing soldiers being killed everyday. I am Canadian and I just can't stomach it. Sometimes their dead bodies are being dragged around. But now it has been over a year with no apparent control of the bloodshed. I think it is actually getting worse. I wonder if Bush can win an election. It seems to me the heavy hand has back fired and ended up slapping himself in the face. I am just thinking out loud here.

[karl k]

Are you guys sick of seeing soldiers being killed everyday. I am Canadian and I just can't stomach it. Sometimes their dead bodies are being dragged around. But now it has been over a year with no apparent control of the bloodshed. I think it is actually getting worse. I wonder if Bush can win an election. It seems to me the heavy hand has back fired and ended up slapping himself in the face. I am just thinking out loud here.

that we in America often don't visually see the same stuff that you do in there. I heard all about the dead and the way they were treated, but didn't "see" any of it. I suppose that's the way it goes. I find it interesting that Americans are such a sensitive group that the "hard truth" of what goes on would be feared so to remove it from being aired. There are those that would argue that no "good" could come of it and all we're doing by removing it is protecting the families from additional anguish. Yet those same people are so bent on being absolute truthfullness when it comes to a president cheating on his wife or trading arms for freeing hostiges or any other inquiry. I suppose it all comes back to what you as a society can stomach and what's considered to be obscene. Maybe if Americans were more knowledgeble in the actual horror of war, they wouldn't be so quick to jump onboard or be so quick to get out when it got a little nasty. In all, just over 500 Americans have died in the whole war with Iraq(I mean Saddam, after all we "like" the people there I'm told) and considering what has been accomplished, I don't think that's too bad.

But now it has been over a year with no apparent control of the bloodshed. I think it is actually getting worse.

All you have here is a group(s) that see the transfer of power to a still weak, defenseless government and the oppurtunity to take advantage of it. From this point on, we will have to include the Iraqi's in any decision making as far as how to handle the uprisings if the new government is to have any credibility. We can protect the new government but approval of such action has to be seen as coming from them for the people to respect both the government and the action by us. It's kinda funny, when you think about it, that we've had all this time to try to explain to the Iraqi's the positive things that are going on through the media in the country but we don't seem to be interested in how the average Iraqi perceives the Americans and what they are doing to help. We prize the media for the info they provide us ... don't you think the Iraqi's would equally do so? I'm not saying that we should "control" the established news groups, but introduce a new "temp" one with Iraqi spokesmen and content that is more positive to the cause at hand. One that encourages involvement at the bottom level to help in rounding up the insurgents and expresses the benefits of doing so.

I wonder if Bush can win an election.

Would you want him to? Do you think it would be in the worlds best interest? Your own?

It seems to me the heavy hand has back fired and ended up slapping himself in the face.

That's what happens when you have a good plan for war and you make up the rest as you go. Pretty soon your face begins to hurt.

[bturk667]

Can Bush win his re-election? Sure, most Americans do not hold Bush accountable for the lies he and his administration told to justify the Iraq war. Knowing this, do you really think they would have a problem voting for him again? I do not; especially when you have Kerry as the alternative.

Remember, the average American is either ignorant or apathetic! Just look at the polls that inquire about the Iraq war! Maybe when enough American and Coalition forces die-I am not sure how many that is-people will start to hold Bush and his administration accountable. Either way, I believe we going to be in Iraq for decades!

[piece-it pete]

Are you guys sick of seeing soldiers being killed everyday. I am Canadian and I just can't stomach it. Sometimes their dead bodies are being dragged around. But now it has been over a year with no apparent control of the bloodshed. I think it is actually getting worse. I wonder if Bush can win an election. It seems to me the heavy hand has back fired and ended up slapping himself in the face. I am just thinking out loud here.

Hello cam!

I understand your revulsion. The world is a brutal place. I did see the footage and it makes me sick!

However, it still comes back to 9-11 (largely). I'd much rather have 600 brave soldiers die fighting than have 3,000 civilians die typing at their desks (plus the huge financial loss AND NYCs' most recognisable landmark)(the bastards).

Even Iraq. Can you imagine what trouble we'd be having in Afganistan if Saddam was still in power? Our fight would look much more like Vietnam, with the enemy hiding and regrouping in a "neutral" neighboring country. And restocking! Saddam loved to make us look bad. And he believed we (the US) couldn't take casualties.

We can. Many of us know that it'll be over there or over here.

Do you watch the BBC news? I love their commentary. Take the State of the Union address. They had an "analysis". It was an interview with the head of a US liberal think tank! How "unbiased".

And the people we're fighting aren't just after the US. They're after the rule of law. Right now there is a Canadian held hostage. What did you guys do to justify that? They need no justification. I assure you, as long as GWB is in power, we will hunt down and kill the men responsible. Do you think Kerry would? Or is there no need to back up Canadian citizenship?

It comes down to this: Is the US going to continue to ensure free trade, that every single country in the world profits from (except by choice?)? Does the world NEED leadership? Or will the UN do to us all what it did to Bosnia?

The "heavy hand" is what was needed to ensure victory with the minimum casulties. It is protecting you as well as every other country in the world. With our blood. I would be remiss if I didn't mention the many others standing (and dieing) with us. This is no political matter, it is a fight for survival, for human freedom itself, and some know it.

We will continue to fight whether Kerry wins or no, his grandstanding aside. He knows it. The real question is, will we go on the defense, or stay on the offense? Because his political base is on the left he will have NO support, regardless of the correctness of his actions. Look at Blair. So basically his hands will be tied.

It's not as bad as it looks over there. The people fighting now are the same kind of people who blow up buses elsewhere. And quite frankly if these folks can't run their own affairs then we will eventually leave. They are getting their chance.

I will vote for Bush.

I will honor our dead. They have not died in vain.

I will support those who seek to kill these animals.

In that, cam, at least with me what you see is what you get. I truly hope you understand were I'm coming from, even if you don't agree.

Pete

[bturk667]

Yeah, and Iran isn't helping do what you think Saddam would have done? Your about to drink the cool-aid aren't you Pete?
Saddam was no threat to us. Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have always been, and will always be bigger threats than Saddam ever was.
Hey, what ever happened to Osama?
Have a great day Pete!

[gulmer]

To find out what the Iraqi think of the US occupation,try this site...Stop Terrorkrigen
Included Page: Stop Terrorkrigen

[piece-it pete]

To find out what the Iraqi think of the US occupation,try this site...Stop Terrorkrigen
Included Page: Stop Terrorkrigen

What should our reaction to 9-11have been? Lay out the red carpet? Give these vermin our daughters? Seems like Osama and his bunch know a lot more about hatred and intolerance than we do.

Interesting, I don't see any info there about "what Iraqis think". I'm sure they'd rather have Saddam back. The women loved it when he punished them by hanging them upside down during their time and, of course, the systematic rape. The men really enjoyed being tortured and killed.

"We choose democratic rights, the right of nations for self determination and sovereignty, and a fairer distribution of the world's wealth."

Very good. When Osama manages to bring down the rule of law by your inaction (help?) I'm sure those'll be his guiding principles.

Hey, you can start, no one's stopping you from redistributing your own wealth! Or are you more interested in redistributing others?

Pete

[JSE]

Are you guys sick of seeing soldiers being killed everyday. I am Canadian and I just can't stomach it. Sometimes their dead bodies are being dragged around. But now it has been over a year with no apparent control of the bloodshed. I think it is actually getting worse. I wonder if Bush can win an election. It seems to me the heavy hand has back fired and ended up slapping himself in the face. I am just thinking out loud here.

Yes, I am sick of seeing Soldiers being killed everyday. This is on area that I tend to disagree with Bush's current tactics. I feel we are being much to tolerant with the Iraqi rebels. I would like to see a much more powerfull response that would take care of these animals once and for all. Unfortunately, Bush is having to walk a fine line right now and does not want to commit more troops and more money. Can you imagine the left's outrage if he did this?


JSE

[Bryan]

600 dead isn't nearly as bad as everyone had originally predicted (numbers in the several thousand range). Ultimately their sacrafice is necessary to bring freedom to a country that has known none. Our presense there will be required for several years to come. However, the media focuses and sensationalizes the dead rather than bringing to light the good news that comes as a result of what we have done. Sadly good news doesn't sell so the bad news gets the attention. Mainly what we are seeing now are factions fighting for power and control over areas. Once those few are eliminated it is doubtful we will have major problems. As one talk show host here put it, "Their bench does not go very deep."

[bturk667]

What did Saddam have to do with 9/11?

[bturk667]

600 dead isn't nearly as bad as everyone had originally predicted (numbers in the several thousand range). Ultimately their sacrafice is necessary to bring freedom to a country that has known none. Our presense there will be required for several years to come. However, the media focuses and sensationalizes the dead rather than bringing to light the good news that comes as a result of what we have done. Sadly good news doesn't sell so the bad news gets the attention. Mainly what we are seeing now are factions fighting for power and control over areas. Once those few are eliminated it is doubtful we will have major problems. As one talk show host here put it, "Their bench does not go very deep."

Who predicted thousands? If you had a family member being counted as one of the six hundred I wonder if you would feel the same?

Why should we as a country care about Iraq and if their citizens are free or not? Sorry, we should have let one of their neighboring countries do that. If they didn't want to, too bad! There is a price for freedom, I do not know if the Iraqi's are willing to pay it. Why should we then?

Remember, the war on terror and the war with Iraq are two different things. We should have taken care of the former, not the latter!

[Bryan]

Who predicted thousands?

It was all over the media pre-war. They were predicting another Vietnam.

If you had a family member being counted as one of the six hundred I wonder if you would feel the same?

It would directly impact me more though I know what they signed up for and that risk comes with the job. Alot of my family was in the military as was I. You are a soldier first, occupational title second, be it a nurse, doctor, crew chief, or secretary with the President being your Commander in Chief.

Why should we as a country care about Iraq and if their citizens are free or not? Sorry, we should have let one of their neighboring countries do that. If they didn't want to, too bad! There is a price for freedom, I do not know if the Iraqi's are willing to pay it. Why should we then?

Why shouldn't we? The Middle East is among the hot spots in the world and has been for many years. None of their neighbors was going to do so as they were happy with the status quo. The Iraqis may not have been initially willing to pay it but we were and did.

Remember, the war on terror and the war with Iraq are two different things. We should have taken care of the former, not the latter!

And Hussien wasn't a terrorist nor harbored terrorists? Given the intelligence at the time it pointed to him having WMDs and was willing to use them. Of course, what do you do if they turn up in Iran or Syria?

History will tell if we did the right thing but what is done is done and there is no changing that fact.

[Justlisten2]

Who predicted thousands? If you had a family member being counted as one of the six hundred I wonder if you would feel the same?

Why should we as a country care about Iraq and if their citizens are free or not? Sorry, we should have let one of their neighboring countries do that. If they didn't want to, too bad! There is a price for freedom, I do not know if the Iraqi's are willing to pay it. Why should we then?

Remember, the war on terror and the war with Iraq are two different things. We should have taken care of the former, not the latter!

You're smack dab in the middle of the Republican National Headquarters. Just jump up and down and yell "NUKE 'EM ALL" as loud as you can, and you'll fit right in.

[bturk667]

I never heard the media ever seculate thousnds of troops. Maybe the Democrats did, but I do not believe the media did. However I might be wrong.

Middle East a "Hot Spot?" Yeah, what about Africa? There is a continent and a people who all the help the entire world has to offer. To a much highe degree that the Iraqi people. Oh yeah, they have nothing we need! What about Afghanistan? Do not their citizens deserve a Democracy? Oh yeah, they have nothing we need unless it was narcotics! Get the theme?

No Saddam was not a terrorist. An evil dictator, yes, but not a terrorist! Harbor terrorists? Not really. If you were to go into any Middle Eastern country you would find terrorists. Dose this mean that every country in the Middle East harbors terrorists?
Now if you want to talkk about terrorists and country who harbor them. Lets start with Iran, Syria, and my favorite, and the favorites of the Bush family, Saudi Arabia!

Three questions: 1. Were are the insurgant terrorists know in Iraq coming from?
2. What country is not only aiding them financially but also with weaponry?
3. What country in the Middle East actually has nuclear capabilities?
Get the theme? Okay, four questions.

Is this country not a bigger threat than Iraq ever was?

Funny thing about history. One, it takes time and lives to prove. Two, the winners usually write it.
I think history will look at our war with Iraq as an unjust one. If seem through the eyes of facts on why we were told we had to go in and attack Saddam.

[bturk667]

I would love to be a fly on that wall!

[JSE]

I never heard the media ever seculate thousnds of troops. Maybe the Democrats did, but I do not believe the media did. However I might be wrong.

Middle East a "Hot Spot?" Yeah, what about Africa? There is a continent and a people who all the help the entire world has to offer. To a much highe degree that the Iraqi people. Oh yeah, they have nothing we need! What about Afghanistan? Do not their citizens deserve a Democracy? Oh yeah, they have nothing we need unless it was narcotics! Get the theme?

No Saddam was not a terrorist. An evil dictator, yes, but not a terrorist! Harbor terrorists? Not really. If you were to go into any Middle Eastern country you would find terrorists. Dose this mean that every country in the Middle East harbors terrorists?
Now if you want to talkk about terrorists and country who harbor them. Lets start with Iran, Syria, and my favorite, and the favorites of the Bush family, Saudi Arabia!

Three questions: 1. Were are the insurgant terrorists know in Iraq coming from?
2. What country is not only aiding them financially but also with weaponry?
3. What country in the Middle East actually has nuclear capabilities?
Get the theme? Okay, four questions.

Is this country not a bigger threat than Iraq ever was?

Funny thing about history. One, it takes time and lives to prove. Two, the winners usually write it.
I think history will look at our war with Iraq as an unjust one. If seem through the eyes of facts on why we were told we had to go in and attack Saddam.

Regardless of the reasons why we were told we went to war and regardless of whether you believe them or not, the War was and is not unjust. Saddam was a evil animal that preyed on his own citizens. He tortured, raped and murdered them at will. He gased anywhere from thousands to hundreds of thousands of people. He defied UN sanctions, he made hundreds of millions of dollars for himself and not his people or country off "under the table" oil sales to France and other countries.

Being unjust and not agreeing with why we went into Iraq are two totally different things. You just can't and won't see that. And that's your right to think that way. That's why the US is such a great country. Of course if you were in Iraq prewar and disagreed with Saddam, we would not be having the conversation right now. You would be dead.

JSE

JSE

[JSE]

You're smack dab in the middle of the Republican National Headquarters. Just jump up and down and yell "NUKE 'EM ALL" as loud as you can, and you'll fit right in.

Funny, I can name many members here who are not conservatives on this Forum. Actually, I would say the Conservative are the minority on this Forum.

Maybe you and others can't back up your arguments with rational responses and facts? Maybe you just respond with emotional rhetoric and fail to acknowledge reality or fact? Maybe you have no further valid arguments so you just give up and give a Cop-out response like the one above?

Come on, you can do better than that!

JSE

[FLZapped]

What did Saddam have to do with 9/11?

Wrong question. -Bruce

[gulmer]

Here is some more reading from inside Iraq,if you
all can handle the truth,it is worth the effort to
read the whole report,go to opendemocracy.net and
click on "inside the fire",then tell me the US is right with this occupation of Iraq,and remmember,
those contractors that were killed and displayed
were hired killers,mercenaries,fighters that answer to nobody,and can kill at will,for money,your tax
money,hiring trained killers,to protect US corp
interests,oil for the US,the country that burns the
most,got to keep those SUV's running.

[Justlisten2]

Funny, I can name many members here who are not conservatives on this Forum. Actually, I would say the Conservative are the minority on this Forum.

Maybe minority as far as numbers are concerned, but majority as far as number of posts and venom are concerned. I was simply trying to point out to bturk667 that he is outnumbered here and not going to change anyone's mind. This reminds me of the old days in the Cable Forum. Go in there and annouce that you can hear a difference in cables. It's like fresh meat for the wolves.

Maybe you and others can't back up your arguments with rational responses and facts? Maybe you just respond with emotional rhetoric and fail to acknowledge reality or fact? Maybe you have no further valid arguments so you just give up and give a Cop-out response like the one above?

What arguments and rational responses?
"We need to be over there killing people?"
How is that a fact? That sounds like emotional rhetoric.
"We're fighting for freedom."
How is that a fact? That's simply more emotional rhetoric.
I've nothing to reply to since you present no valid arguments.
You say "we need to be over there killing them to keep them in line."
I say " maybe if we weren't killing them they wouldn't get out of line."

My father is from northern Ireland, whose right? The Catholics or the Protostants? C'mon, really. I find it amusing how all these religions say killing is wrong, yet for as long as man has walked the earth, religion is the cause of killing . Actually, religion and/or greed, it's probably a toss-up as to which the true culprit. Many who claim to fight in God/Allah/Buddha/etc name are actually fighting for personal gain (or possibly just bloodlust).

Come on, you can do better than that!

Yeah, but really, what's the point? You're not going to change your beliefs, and neither am I. You believe what you beleive and I beleive what I beleive. You're allowed to be different, I accept that, why can't you? You believe the war is just, I don't. So what's the point of all this banter? It certainly won't impact anything. It's just what bored, lonely people do to kill time.

[JSE]

"Maybe minority as far as numbers are concerned, but majority as far as number of posts and venom are concerned."

That's usually because it come down to the left not being able to respond to cold hard facts. For example, the left is still saying the economy is in the dumps. The fact is, it is doing quite well. Unemployment is decreasing, the deficit is decreasing, the stock market is up, consumer spending it way up, etc, etc. These are the facts.

"What arguments and rational responses?
"We need to be over there killing people?"
How is that a fact? That sounds like emotional rhetoric.
"We're fighting for freedom."
How is that a fact? That's simply more emotional rhetoric.
I've nothing to reply to since you present no valid arguments.
You say "we need to be over there killing them to keep them in line."
I say " maybe if we weren't killing them they wouldn't get out of line.""

Quite possibly some of the most ludicrous statements to come our of you yet. Congrats.

"My father is from northern Ireland, whose right? The Catholics or the Protostants? C'mon, really. I find it amusing how all these religions say killing is wrong, yet for as long as man has walked the earth, religion is the cause of killing . Actually, religion and/or greed, it's probably a toss-up as to which the true culprit. Many who claim to fight in God/Allah/Buddha/etc name are actually fighting for personal gain (or possibly just bloodlust)."

We are not in Iraq because of religion.

"Yeah, but really, what's the point? You're not going to change your beliefs, and neither am I. You believe what you beleive and I beleive what I beleive. You're allowed to be different, I accept that, why can't you? You believe the war is just, I don't. So what's the point of all this banter? It certainly won't impact anything. It's just what bored, lonely people do to kill time. "

So....... why are you here? If you don't want to debate and discuss issues, do something else. Simple as that.

"It's just what bored, lonely people do to kill time. "

Sorry, not bored or lonely. Great life, great wife, great family, great dog (most of the time), great friends, great beer, great food, grea...., ok decent job, happy. I just like to mix it up a bit with these guys.

Regardless of what my comments come off as, I respect everyone here and would sit down with some cold-ones any day, any time with any of them. If anyone ever comes to Houston, the brew is on me! Not everyone at once, OK? I said decent job, not awesome job.

JSE

[cam]

Whenever there is war and you have alot of people influanced and fed from day 1 religion, there will never be an end. luckily for the worlds sake, world war 2 had a couple of non religious power hungry countries Germany and Japan that felt like they needed to conquer. That need for control was founded by a few dictators such as hitler. If Germany and Japans stupid decisions were based on religion they never would have stopped. Religious people in the mid-east are so driven by religion, they don't know right from wrong, the germans and japanese atleast knew thank god.

[D-DAY]

Wow once again I am shocked at the lack of common sense on this site! It is appalling! We are fighting a war here and people die. You know why you haven't seen people dragged through the street because many Americans are wussies (usually libs and Dems) and if they see someone die they will cry and want to end the war and give up like we are stinking Frenchmen. Stop being cool-aide drinkers and think for yourselves and attempt to grasp some common sense because the arguments you make (with few exceptions) are sad and pathetic.

[Justlisten2]

That's usually because it come down to the left not being able to respond to cold hard facts. For example, the left is still saying the economy is in the dumps. The fact is, it is doing quite well. Unemployment is decreasing, the deficit is decreasing, the stock market is up, consumer spending it way up, etc, etc. These are the facts.

Facts? ROTFLMAO. These are the most ludicrous statements to come out of you yet. C'mon, don't tell me that you're naive enough that you don't realize that numbers can be bent, shaped and twisted like a pretzel. They can be made to look like anything the creator wants them to look like.

Quite possibly some of the most ludicrous statements to come our of you yet. Congrats.

Thank you very much. It's good to know that you can appreciate other opinions.

We are not in Iraq because of religion.

OK, then I guess that narrows it down to greed or bloodlust.

So....... why are you here? If you don't want to debate and discuss issues, do something else. Simple as that.

I just throw my $0.02 in. Not really interested in 'debating'. This reminds me of the Monty Python Argument skit.
"I came here for an argument."
"No you didn't."
"Yes I did."
"No, you didn't."
" Look, this isn't an argument, you're simply contradicting me."
"No, I'm not."
"Yes, you are."
"No I'm not."
"Yes you are, you're doing it again."

ROTFLMAO, good times, thanks

Sorry, not bored or lonely. Great life, great wife, great family, great dog (most of the time), great friends, great beer, great food, grea...., ok decent job, happy. I just like to mix it up a bit with these guys.

Is this your only discussion forum? Because it seems like you have a lot of input here. I'm really a audio guy. This is my 3rd discussion forum (as in order of importance to me). I really don't have enough time or interest to spend that much time here. The politics amuses me a little, but not enough to spend more time, sorry.

Regardless of what my comments come off as, I respect everyone here and would sit down with some cold-ones any day, any time with any of them. If anyone ever comes to Houston, the brew is on me! Not everyone at once, OK? I said decent job, not awesome job.

How nice, I don't think I'll ever have the opportunity to take you up on it, but that's a nice thought. If you're ever in the Philadelphia area, I'll buy you a beer to (although I'll abstain).

Gotta run, the folks at work are starting to wonder why I'm not working. Maybe I'll get lucky and get canned. My job pays decent, but doesn't interest me. I'm here for my family's sake. They need this money.

JHM

[piece-it pete]

Here is some more reading from inside Iraq,if you
all can handle the truth,it is worth the effort to
read the whole report,go to opendemocracy.net and
click on "inside the fire",then tell me the US is right with this occupation of Iraq,and remmember,
those contractors that were killed and displayed
were hired killers,mercenaries,fighters that answer to nobody,and can kill at will,for money,your tax
money,hiring trained killers,to protect US corp
interests,oil for the US,the country that burns the
most,got to keep those SUV's running.

Gulmer,

An interesting note: those "hired killers", were hired out of the general US population, heck my nephew considered going, $80,000 USD a year for a truck driver is quite an inticement. If he had a gun he'd end up shooting himself. BTW, the US gov't (meaning US citizens - not Iraqis) is paying that figure through general contractors. And the kidnapped Japanese citizens don't look like mercenaries to me.

Hired killers indeed. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go fill up my cars before the price of gas goes up again, a 96 geo metro made in southeast asia (bought, not stolen), and a 97 mercury grand marquis made in Canada (again, bought, not stolen).

The metro gets 39 mpg. The big merc gets 19.3. Average(both cars get roughly the same milage per year): 29.15 mpg, probably better than most American families, but not by much. Most SUVs' are not giant trucks, more like midsized cars really, although midsized here is probably more like large in most of Europe (the Ford Scorpio I saw in England has got to be a Ford Taurus here, a middle of the road midsize, it did look big). The current gov't mandated corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) here is 27.5 mpg for cars, 23? (21?) for trucks. So in theory our overall fuel economy here is about 25 (24?) mpg for consumer vehicles (truck to car sales ratios' been about 50/50 for a couple of years).

We may be wealthy, due largely to hard work and our system of gov't, but the flip side of that is that we are the worlds' bigest customer, as well, allowing others to "share the wealth". Japan. China. The EU. The Middle East. India. Mexico. Canada.

Without this economic (and military) powerhouse millions of poor (and not-so-poor) would die worldwide, due to lack of food funding, markets, and the political instability that would follow the US leaving.

You are of course free to believe as you wish. But I've got a question for you: How can you be for the sovereignity of nations and the redistribution of wealth at the same time?

Pete