Beginning of new Blu Ray trend?

[E-Stat]

New album release.

I have long observed that Blu Ray music offerings have been limited to live "concert" recordings which I find are usually inferior to studio based releases in both audio and performance quality. The only consolation was added audience noise. Petty's release appears to be a change from the status quo in that this is an audio only studio based multi-channel album. It will be interesting to find how many other artists follow this trend. I would be happy to embrace the format for audio purposes if there was a reasonable quorum of artists who released their content this way.

rw

[atomicAdam]

As soon as hi-fi goes 7.1 in 24bit I'm in. Only problem is, 6 speakers at 10k each....... oach for anyone but the wealthy. not to mention recording studios will have to totally redesign and engineers will have to re-learn.

but real multi-channel sound art is a thing itself and it would be great the day it crosses over to music effectively.

i've always wanted a PC w/ 10 sound cards, 20 channels, and 20 speakers, recording software that could process to each individual channel and just sit in the middle with some good green and a big fully pillow.

i suppose i had to much fun in on the pillow in college to make my DSP dreams come true.

[Feanor]

New album release.

I have long observed that Blu Ray music offerings have been limited to live "concert" recordings which I find are usually inferior to studio based releases in both audio and performance quality. The only consolation was added audience noise. Petty's release appears to be a change from the status quo in that this is an audio only studio based multi-channel album. It will be interesting to find how many other artists follow this trend. I would be happy to embrace the format for audio purposes if there was a reasonable quorum of artists who released their content this way.

rw

I'd be pleased to see a lot more Blu-ray audio(-only) product, even if it comes with a decline in SACD releases.

Despite the equipment cost and system setup issue, I strongly endorse multi-channel. Bear in mind that most people with fairly ordinary HT systems will find the sound "pure" enough to enjoy the added benefit of M/C. Audiophile crazies like me and most of us around here are the types with reservations about these potential difficulties.

As regards SACD, there was always an important issue. The SACD standard specified 5 equal, full range speakers setup equi-distant from the listener: a very difficult setup in practice. SACD players typically provided nothing in the way of bass management nor time delay. Nor could very many AV receivers do DSP with SACD and the few that typically first converted the signal to PCM. But with Blu-ray we have high rez sound that comes with the expectation that it will be handled by the regular DSP provisions of players and receivers.

Despite owning a relatively (compared to Joe Sixpac) large SACD collection, I would content to to Blu-ray replace that medium M/C. Most of my SACDs are hybrid and I must confess that most often I listen to the CD layer on my stereo-only system.

[JoeE SP9]

As soon as hi-fi goes 7.1 in 24bit I'm in. Only problem is, 6 speakers at 10k each....... oach for anyone but the wealthy. not to mention recording studios will have to totally redesign and engineers will have to re-learn.

but real multi-channel sound art is a thing itself and it would be great the day it crosses over to music effectively.

i've always wanted a PC w/ 10 sound cards, 20 channels, and 20 speakers, recording software that could process to each individual channel and just sit in the middle with some good green and a big fully pillow.

i suppose i had to much fun in on the pillow in college to make my DSP dreams come true.

Re-learn! Are you kidding? Most of them haven't learned how to do two channel right yet.

[pixelthis]

As soon as hi-fi goes 7.1 in 24bit I'm in. Only problem is, 6 speakers at 10k each....... oach for anyone but the wealthy. not to mention recording studios will have to totally redesign and engineers will have to re-learn.

but real multi-channel sound art is a thing itself and it would be great the day it crosses over to music effectively.

i've always wanted a PC w/ 10 sound cards, 20 channels, and 20 speakers, recording software that could process to each individual channel and just sit in the middle with some good green and a big fully pillow.

i suppose i had to much fun in on the pillow in college to make my DSP dreams come true.

Who ever told you it would cost that much?
You get 98% outta the first two grand.
The rest is just chipping away at that extra percent, a few grand at a time(you can never get a hundred per, same reason you cant go the speed of light)

[pixelthis]

ME?
Two words...
MUSIC VIDEOS.

[rob_a]

I guess most of the music coming out on Blu Ray being live is still considered a movie, so there really is not any Blu Ray “music” besides some classical stuff.

The few live music blu rays I have listened to has given hope for a straight music blu ray. The sound and picture quality was better than DVD video and equal or better to DVD audio. I would not mind this becoming a standard for music. The amount of information you could put on a disk will increase and the quality will also increase over redbook. That’s a win win.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Re-learn! Are you kidding? Most of them haven't learned how to do two channel right yet.

Wow! Not to be a smarty, but with your current knowledge of studio equipment and recording practices, do you really think you could do better? A lot of folks who listen to audio talk a wonderful game on their side of the speakers, but rarely have the knowledge of how to improve audio quality on the otherside of the microphone, or even at the mixing desk.

No offense JoeE, but I wouldn't comment on the quality of anyone's work unless I could do better. Unless your setup is perfect in every way, you don't know if it the mixing, or your system that is the problem.

[E-Stat]

Re-learn! Are you kidding? Most of them haven't learned how to do two channel right yet.

The open question is whether or not the multi-channel format can be made to sound natural with pop music which has real *live* reference. Indeed, quite a few MC recordings from the past have used hokey tricks which bear no resemblance to reality.

rw

[Woochifer]

As soon as hi-fi goes 7.1 in 24bit I'm in. Only problem is, 6 speakers at 10k each....... oach for anyone but the wealthy.

10k each? Anything less is not hi-fi?

The thing about multichannel is that a good multichannel mix can reveal nuances and details in the imaging that simply are not possible with even the best two-channel mix and playback setup. Even a relatively modest 5.1 setup can convey specific properties (such as a more solidly anchored side image, depth perception, and ambient cues) that don't come out in a two-channel mix.

Yes, high end speakers can render an incredible level of detail, but two-channels are inherently limited in what they can convey. If your speaker budget is locked in at $20k, then the decision to go all in with two speakers, or split it between five speakers + the sub depends on your priorities. For me, the extra dimension that multichannel offers up is well worth whatever tradeoff exists (to me, after about $2k, you're getting more into diminishing returns on the sound quality for the price).

not to mention recording studios will have to totally redesign and engineers will have to re-learn.

but real multi-channel sound art is a thing itself and it would be great the day it crosses over to music effectively.

From my understanding, it's been common practice in the industry for audio tracks to get mixed for 5.1, and then downmixed to two-channels from that 5.1 master. Back when DVD-A and SACD were ramping up, I kept hearing that most new major label releases were already prepped for 5.1 as an intermediate step.

For older titles, yes they required extensive repurposing from the original multitrack masters at a cost of about $50k each. But, newer titles were supposedly mixed into a 5.1 master as a matter of routine, so there is a library of titles ready to go if the market for multichannel music ever develops.

IMO, multichannel has already crossed over to music "effectively" in the sense that there are a lot of great examples already out there (in addition to a lot of garbage). The impediment has been the lack of distribution/title availablity and lack of sales with multichannel music, since the prep work and the mixes have already been done.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Audio only application on Blu ray are nothing new. Both 2L AND Surround records have relased them. Any limitations on audio only disc being released come from a person's ignorance of music releases on the format, not a complete lack of titles. 2L has 7 titles out now that have no video just music, and Surround Records has 54 titles with audio only and no video. This is no beginning, that started years ago. If you thought that the only music titles out there had video, then you have not been paying attention to what is happening with the format.

Secondly it is another ignorant assumption that live concerts led to compromised sound quality and performance. Chris Botti in Boston, Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds live at Carneige Hall, Within Temptation : Black Symphony, K.D. Lang in London with the BBC orchestra, Ricky Martin Black and White Tour, Pat Metheny Group : This Way Up just to name a few feature top quality audio, AND top quality performances from these artists. Making blanket statements without actually hearing many Blu ray concert videos is not a credible critique, but actually reveals ignorance and lack of experience more than anything else. As with anything audio you have to listen first, and then comment. If you have never heard it, then your comments on it aren't worth the bandwidth it took to make them.

not to mention recording studios will have to totally redesign and engineers will have to re-learn.

5.1 audio mixes have been around since the late nineties, there are ton's of 5.1 recording studios, as a matter of fact almost all new studios built cover 5.1 recording. There are a lot of experienced multichannel engineers around already. If you had of made this statement 10 years ago, you would have been right.

[E-Stat]

Any limitations on audio only disc being released come from a person's ignorance of music releases on the format, not a complete lack of titles.

And lack of any desirable content.

and Surround Records has 54 titles with audio only and no video.

I'll ask the question once more and see if you actually answer it. WHO else releases their first run studio albums on audio only BR? I'm not talking live concerts or bogus releases like "The Way to Paradise-Music Experience in 3-Dimensional Sound Reality" ? You have failed to mention even one. Can you cite even ONE movie soundtrack?

rw

[Woochifer]

New album release.

I have long observed that Blu Ray music offerings have been limited to live "concert" recordings which I find are usually inferior to studio based releases in both audio and performance quality. The only consolation was added audience noise. Petty's release appears to be a change from the status quo in that this is an audio only studio based multi-channel album. It will be interesting to find how many other artists follow this trend. I would be happy to embrace the format for audio purposes if there was a reasonable quorum of artists who released their content this way.

rw

Neil Young also put all of his archives into a Blu-ray set. He had already issued several titles on DVD-A and open 96/24 PCM tracks on regular DVDs. His embrace of Blu-ray had to do with the multimedia possibilities. He wanted a format that would allow the listener to explore production notes, pictures, and other content while listening in high res.

From the description in that link, the Tom Petty album indeed looks very promising. Petty's previous project with his original band Mudcrutch was recorded live in studio with minimal post production, and it sounded great. It was a vibrant, energetic-sounding recording. More like an in-house jam session (which it actually was, given that they recorded the album at Petty's house) than an antiseptic studio assemblage. The music itself was better than any of the more recent stuff he'd done with the Heartbreakers. If this is a continuation of the musical direction that Petty took with Mudcrutch, then it's definitely worth a look.

That Mudcrutch album was actually released on an LP version that included a "full range" CD that was supposedly taken from a different master than the regular CD release, with the dynamic range compression removed. Blu-ray would be a direct transcription of the original master, so we might have a winner here.

[E-Stat]

Neil Young also put all of his archives into a Blu-ray set. He had already issued several titles on DVD-A and open 96/24 PCM tracks on regular DVDs.

Thank you kind sir! You are the first person to actually answer a question I've advanced before. We are now up to two performers. Unfortunately, I have no interest in either of them.

rw

[Ajani]

10k each? Anything less is not hi-fi?

The thing about multichannel is that a good multichannel mix can reveal nuances and details in the imaging that simply are not possible with even the best two-channel mix and playback setup. Even a relatively modest 5.1 setup can convey specific properties (such as a more solidly anchored side image, depth perception, and ambient cues) that don't come out in a two-channel mix.

Yes, high end speakers can render an incredible level of detail, but two-channels are inherently limited in what they can convey. If your speaker budget is locked in at $20k, then the decision to go all in with two speakers, or split it between five speakers + the sub depends on your priorities. For me, the extra dimension that multichannel offers up is well worth whatever tradeoff exists (to me, after about $2k, you're getting more into diminishing returns on the sound quality for the price).

Even at $2K per speaker, 6 speakers would still require a significant investment ($12K)... MC Audio will always be plagued by the problem of convincing 2 channel lovers to invest that heavily in a MC system... If the format is to be a success it really needs to capture the interest of the hardcore HT fans, since they have already invested in MC setups...

[E-Stat]

If the format is to be a success it really needs to capture the interest of the hardcore HT fans, since they have already invested in MC setups...

And extend its grasp beyond two performers.

rw

[Ajani]

And extend its grasp beyond two performers.

rw

The selection is way too limited....

[Woochifer]

Even at $2K per speaker, 6 speakers would still require a significant investment ($12K)... MC Audio will always be plagued by the problem of convincing 2 channel lovers to invest that heavily in a MC system... If the format is to be a success it really needs to capture the interest of the hardcore HT fans, since they have already invested in MC setups...

It doesn't even have to be $2k per speaker. That's only my very approximate point at which audio improvements start diminishing rapidly. You can set any number of reasonable budget points, and the things that IMO multichannel can do better than two-channel would still apply. Accordingly, you'd still have to make the choice as to whether the extra steps up in speaker quality are worth it to stay with two speakers. For my own system, I invested just over $2k on my entire 5.1 speaker setup. For my listening preferences, there's no way I would spend the entire $2k on just two speakers -- the incremental improvement in sound quality from two channels would not be worth the tradeoff of no surround speakers and no subwoofer.

Personally, I don't think that HT fans are mutually exclusive from music fans. I would suspect that most HT owners use their systems like I do -- as a dual-purpose setup for both two-channel and 5.1 sources. One of the two major issues with multichannel music is simple -- there has been little to no distribution of multichannel titles in recent years, and DVD-A and SACD never had full support from the music industry to begin with (i.e., only one DVD-A title ever came out on the same date as the CD version, and only a few hybrid CD/SACDs have had day and date releases). The other major issue is consumer demand, which hasn't shown clear signs of mainstream support for high res audio.

Blu-ray has gained traction on the video side because the consumer demand for HD video has been high, and because of strong studio support in which all new major releases now come out concurrently with the DVD version. It remains to be seen how strong the demand and supply sides come out for Blu-ray audio.

[Woochifer]

And extend its grasp beyond two performers.

rw

So, was the question on this thread posed in good faith, or with the mocking response already prepared in advance?

[E-Stat]

So, was the question on this thread posed in good faith, or with the mocking response already prepared in advance?

I've been waiting for some time for anyone to answer this question. Sir T has dodged it before providing only links to sites that either have live concerts or bogus content. The substantiated answer is two. Can you document more? I'm all ears. By all means provide some substance to the discussion. The total remains at two.


rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And lack of any desirable content.

To you right? It in fact is desirable to somebody because they are selling bogus or not.

I'll ask the question once more and see if you actually answer it. WHO else releases their first run studio albums on audio only BR? I'm not talking live concerts or bogus releases like "The Way to Paradise-Music Experience in 3-Dimensional Sound Reality" ? You have failed to mention even one. Can you cite even ONE movie soundtrack?

rw

Once again, you are waiting for me to answer a question you can answer yourself. Out of all the links I have posted back to Blu ray.com, the only titles you could find where Alexander Jero original works? You obviously weren't looking hard enough if this is true.

There are no movie soundtracks on Blu ray as of yet. But there is plenty of classical music if one just looks

Wooch already answered the question, but don't you have Google?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thank you kind sir! You are the first person to actually answer a question I've advanced before. We are now up to two performers. Unfortunately, I have no interest in either of them.

rw

The question had been previously answered, but your last words are the reality. You are just not interested in what I posted, and you should admit that rather than saying the question hasn't been answered.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Even at $2K per speaker, 6 speakers would still require a significant investment ($12K)... MC Audio will always be plagued by the problem of convincing 2 channel lovers to invest that heavily in a MC system... If the format is to be a success it really needs to capture the interest of the hardcore HT fans, since they have already invested in MC setups...

Two channel audiophiles pay way more than 12K for just two speakers, so $12K is not all that significant an investment. Some audiophiles pay $12k for two channels of power, or for a pre-amp that cost that much.

Two channel audiophiles have invested heavily in their two channel rigs both software and hardware, and many have no interest in MC even if it provided a more accurate portrayal of a live performance. I think they are just stuck in the past, but that is just my opinion.

The problem here A, is that many here are not in front of the curve, but behind it in many ways. Those folks at Blu ray.com are hardcore HT folks, and they are buying these MC Blu ray audio only, and concert videos. People here either love movies, or two channel audio only. While there still isn't a lot of choice out there for MC releases on Blu ray disc, it is growing quickly. All things take time to ramp up, but the mixes are out there already.

The last time I talked about audio only on Blu ray, there was only 2 2L releases, and 35 Surround Record releases. Now there are 7 2L releases, and 54 Surround Record releases. Patience pays off, as there will be more to come.

[E-Stat]

Once again, you are waiting for me to answer a question you can answer yourself.

Indeed. The answer is two artists on the planet. Once again, I had no confidence whatsoever that you would attempt to answer my question regarding anything beyond the two examples. Apparently, it is zero since that is the only answer I can find.

rw

[E-Stat]

While there still isn't a lot of choice out there for MC releases on Blu ray disc, it is growing quickly. All things take time to ramp up, but the mixes are out there already.

Growing quickly from two *real* artists to exactly what? Three? Four?

rw