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Plasma Is Dead
Finally some REAL news, mainly that plasma TV, the dumbest way to create a video image , IS DEAD.
NOT QUITE YET, but the doctors are pulling the plug.
After spending FOUR billion on plasma producing factories Pioneer has thrown in the towel,
they will still market plasmas, they just wont be producing the screens.
A new generation of superthin LCD and the new OLED tech was cited as the reasons for the decision.
THE ARTICLE IS HERE:1:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/indu...sma-tv-is-dead
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i dont think that was why pioneer ceased making screens. in australia here the problem i feel was their distribution. they were in nearly every store, from big box movers to high end distributors. they were in stores that carried unknown chinese brands, lg and the like. people like the picture, they know of the quality of screen, but when next door to it on the sales floor is an lg at 1/3 the price they didnt want to spend the money. as a consequence retailers began to heavily discount the panel. pioneer were getting pressured to reduce price.
in the end of the day, they couldnt compete against price. if they reduced their distributers i feel they wouldnt be in this situation
cheers: diggity
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Coming down the road are super thin plasma's as well! I just read a small article on them. I think Samsung is developing them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
Coming down the road are super thin plasma's as well! I just read a small article on them. I think Samsung is developing them.
Are you DEAF? Pixel said plasma is DEAD. That means DEAD. No super thin, super DEAD. DEAD DEAD DEAD. No more DEAD. You didn't read what you though you did. It said plasma is DEAD.
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Can't WAIT to see what Wooch has to say! :lol:
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Hmmm, 11.4 million units sold last year doesn't look like a dead format to me. And the Japan Electronics and Information Technology Association (JEITA) just last month projected that plasma sales would increase to around 25 million units by 2012. Dead would imply that sales are near zero, and technological investment is at an end, which is not the case with plasma.
The only thing factual about this article is Pioneer getting out of manufacturing plasma panels, which is not surprising considering that they only produce plasma panels in the hundreds of thousands, while Samsung, LG, and Panasonic each manufacture plasma panels in the millions. Just about everything else in the article is speculation, as I'm sure you're aware. :rolleyes:
Pioneer's problem is that other manufacturers passed them technologically, while Pioneer maintained their higher price points. Panasonic's highly reviewed 1080p plasmas sell for less than Pioneer's 720p models. Pioneer's plasmas are well regarded for their black levels and color accuracy, but they lost on the spec sheet to other competing models while charging substantially higher prices. Subjectively, the Pioneers have always had top notch picture quality, but their advantage has narrowed as competitors have improved their picture quality.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
Are you DEAF? Pixel said plasma is DEAD. That means DEAD. No super thin, super DEAD. DEAD DEAD DEAD. No more DEAD. You didn't read what you though you did. It said plasma is DEAD.
Things get super thin as they wither away and become DEAD.
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I think the Super thin plasma was something like 0.37ths of an inch if I'm not mistaken. I'll double check the article.
Just checked and it was 9mm thick and there is 25mm to an inch.
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Nine millimeters is .355 inches (as every pistolero knows), so your estimation of .37 is very very close.
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Quote:
Woochifer Hmmm, 11.4 million units sold last year doesn't look like a dead format to me. And the Japan Electronics and Information Technology Association (JEITA) just last month projected that plasma sales would increase to around 25 million units by 2012. Dead would imply that sales are near zero, and technological investment is at an end, which is not the case with plasma.
11.4 MILL IS JUST A DROP IN THE BUCKET.
These guys are as wrong as you are
Quote:
The only thing factual about this article is Pioneer getting out of manufacturing plasma panels, which is not surprising considering that they only produce plasma panels in the hundreds of thousands, while Samsung, LG, and Panasonic each manufacture plasma panels in the millions. Just about everything else in the article is speculation, as I'm sure you're aware. :rolleyes:
Not really, the competitive forces at play wont leave plasma with a market niche.
And its certainly NOT speculation that PIONEER is giving up a FOUR BILLION
dollar investment in four plasma screen factories.
In other words they are gettin out while the gettins good
Quote:
Pioneer's problem is that other manufacturers passed them technologically, while Pioneer maintained their higher price points. Panasonic's highly reviewed 1080p plasmas sell for less than Pioneer's 720p models. Pioneer's plasmas are well regarded for their black levels and color accuracy, but they lost on the spec sheet to other competing models while charging substantially higher prices. Subjectively, the Pioneers have always had top notch picture quality, but their advantage has narrowed as competitors have improved their picture quality.
Their problem is the same as with other plasma makers...
PLASMA IS DEAD:1:
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When developement along different tracks to do the same thing occurs a
kind of "shaking out" is the result.
WITH CARS IT WAS steam, electric, and the internal combustion engine(both deisel and gas).
IN THE RACE TO SUPPLANT the CRT there were several techiques ,
RPTV (tube, lcd, dlp, etc), Plasma, and later LCD.
Now the shakeout is occuring , RPTV was the first victim, now PLASMA is next.
The market some grew up in is an abberation, so many ways to create video images .
But there are advantages to having a few core ways of doing things.
So the future is going to be LCD and oled, and that is just the near future, eventually OLED will supplant LCD.
THIS is what the market has decided and the HT and audio enthusiast rides on a sea
of the mass market, at least now that we have a glimpse of the future we can start improving the breed.
Superflat LCD with external electrode flourescents is an example.
PLASMA is just too difficult to fabricate and use compared to cheap LCD.
but the good news, there will be a higher end of displays for the more discerning taste,
and now that there is one tech to focuse on that tech will get better faster:1:
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irony is pioneer produced an ultra thin panel at the last c.e.s. they will still be around, they are getting panels from panasonic they tell me and tweaking them. which is what sony does with samsung panels. panasonic i hear has brought old panels from hitachi so they can release bigger lcd screens, they will be tweaking them as well. everyone is doing it. plasma is far from dead.
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Well gee whiz
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Finally some REAL news, mainly that plasma TV, the dumbest way to create a video image , IS DEAD.
NOT QUITE YET, but the doctors are pulling the plug.
After spending FOUR billion on plasma producing factories Pioneer has thrown in the towel,
they will still market plasmas, they just wont be producing the screens.
A new generation of superthin LCD and the new OLED tech was cited as the reasons for the decision.
THE ARTICLE IS HERE:1:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/indu...sma-tv-is-dead
With any luck I'll be buying my first HDTV come the fall, and I was leaning to plazma for the blacker blacks and better colors. From what I had heard, burn-in and shorter life aren't the problems they used to be.
I'd heard of Pioneer's decision to get out of plazma production but figured it was really just another out-sourcing strategy. There's nothing new about major manufactures buying components from outside. If I got the facts right, (maybe I don't), LG makes LCD panels for a couple of majors.
I guess I've got the advantage of 6 months to watch and see what happens before I have to choose.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
11.4 MILL IS JUST A DROP IN THE BUCKET.
These guys are as wrong as you are
And 11.4 million does not equate to DEAD, so who's wrong now Mr "Scientist"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Not really, the competitive forces at play wont leave plasma with a market niche.
If you're referring to OLED, that won't happen for years. And when alternative technologies like OLED finally reach viable price points, LCD would likely go down first, since most of their market share is in the smaller screen sizes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
And its certainly NOT speculation that PIONEER is giving up a FOUR BILLION
dollar investment in four plasma screen factories.
In other words they are gettin out while the gettins good
And all the while, Panasonic and Samsung have been investing in their plasma technologies, and maintaining a healthy margin in that segment. Pioneer's problem is that they overpaid for NEC's production facility (which at the time was providing Sony with plasma panels, and Pioneer's acquisition occured just as Sony exited the segment), and fell behind their competitors technologically. Pioneer bought NEC's production facility assuming that they could count on the outsource volume from Sony. Once Pioneer lost Sony, they had way too much Panasonic and Samsung don't have any of these issues, and their production volume is upwards of 10X greater than Pioneer's to begin with.
Plus, it doesn't hurt that Sharp recently took out an ownership stake in Pioneer. Think that doesn't have anything to do with this decision? Keep those crayons out, you might yet comprehend this game of connect-the-dots one of these days! :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Their problem is the same as with other plasma makers...
Wrong again. Panasonic and Samsung are doing just fine, and are primarily responsible for Pioneer's problems. Pioneer could not match their price points, and they've now erased Pioneer's picture quality advantage. Anything else to draw from that article is pure speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
PLASMA IS DEAD:1:
Like I said, 11.4 million in sales and a projected 25 million by 2012 doesn't square with any rational definition of DEAD. Of course, that's presuming that I'm dealing with a rational opinionator here! :dita:
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Watch it Woochie, 15 years from now when plasmas are out of production Pixie will tell ya "I TOLD you so.:1: ".
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For large screen (60" +) I prefer plasma to LCD overall. I saw an LG 70" plasma (native 1920x1080) at Best Buy playing a blu ray disc. Positively stunning picture. My Sony KDS R70XBR2 SXRD still kicks ass even though its now offically classed as an obsolete woolly mammoth (I only bought the thing a bloody year and a bit ago and it had just been released!). Then again my 40" Loewe Aconda CRT still puts many current sets to shame, and its from the cretacious period.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Shag
For large screen (60" +) I prefer plasma to LCD overall. I saw an LG 70" plasma (native 1920x1080) at Best Buy playing a blu ray disc. Positively stunning picture. My Sony KDS R70XBR2 SXRD still kicks ass even though its now offically classed as an obsolete woolly mammoth (I only bought the thing a bloody year and a bit ago and it had just been released!). Then again my 40" Loewe Aconda CRT still puts many current sets to shame, and its from the cretacious period.
A STORE IN TOWN USED TO SELL LOEWE, as a matter of fact thats where I bought my Integra, a friend almost bought a 40in loewe, the picture was very good:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
And 11.4 million does not equate to DEAD, so who's wrong now Mr "Scientist"?
A friends brother drank himself to death, saw his best friend walk around headless for a few seconds while in NAM, that guy was DEAD.
If the market for something with the investment of billions that plasma has is a paltry
11.4 million start shopping for caskets
Quote:
If you're referring to OLED, that won't happen for years. And when alternative technologies like OLED finally reach viable price points, LCD would likely go down first, since most of their market share is in the smaller screen sizes.
Its ALREADY happened, dillweed.
And since every cell fone in the world has oled it wont take long for OLED to catch on
and go down in price, it only took a few years for LCD prices to crash, and it cost more to make one than an OLED.
Theres talk of making OLED screens with bubblejet printers, and OLED paint that , when applied to a wall, will turn into an OLED screen.
You can roll an oled up and put it in a tube, small size is the market for mow but that
will change SOON
Quote:
And all the while, Panasonic and Samsung have been investing in their plasma technologies, and maintaining a healthy margin in that segment. Pioneer's problem is that they overpaid for NEC's production facility (which at the time was providing Sony with plasma panels, and Pioneer's acquisition occured just as Sony exited the segment), and fell behind their competitors technologically. Pioneer bought NEC's production facility assuming that they could count on the outsource volume from Sony. Once Pioneer lost Sony, they had way too much Panasonic and Samsung don't have any of these issues, and their production volume is upwards of 10X greater than Pioneer's to begin with.
THEY HAVE WORSE "ISSUES".
Sony got out of plasma and others are getting out too, I'd get you some "crayons " if
you knew how to use them.
Sony is one of if not the biggest manufacturer od video displays and they aint touching Plasma, are you too stupid to understand why?
Quote:
Plus, it doesn't hurt that Sharp recently took out an ownership stake in Pioneer. Think that doesn't have anything to do with this decision? Keep those crayons out, you might yet comprehend this game of connect-the-dots one of these days! :rolleyes:
THE ONLY THING TO DO WITH THIS DECISION IS OVERCAPACITY IN THE PLASMA MARKET.
The price is going down just to compete with LCD , which it cant do.
The only market niche is highq and the highq is a matter of opinion, and OLED and improvement in LCD, adding to the fact that LCD is more trouble free would be enough to kill Plasma, except that plasma IS ALREADY DEAD
Quote:
Wrong again. Panasonic and Samsung are doing just fine, and are primarily responsible for Pioneer's problems. Pioneer could not match their price points, and they've now erased Pioneer's picture quality advantage. Anything else to draw from that article is pure speculation.
AND THEY ARE BLEEDING RED INK trying to keep their own "price points", and are next to drop plasma like a hot potato, just as soon as they can figure out how to without killing what little is left of the market, which is SHRINKING not growing
Quote:
Like I said, 11.4 million in sales and a projected 25 million by 2012 doesn't square with any rational definition of DEAD. Of course, that's presuming that I'm dealing with a rational opinionator here! :dita:
I'm the one whos rational around here, you talk about "speculation" and then mention
a marketing BS lie ABOUT 25 MILLION BY 2012???:crazy:
I'll give you a more accurate "prediction" ACE, a projection of ZERO sales by 2012.
Why?
BECAUSE PLASMA IS DEAD:1:
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heres a few articles for the clueless wooch to chaw on
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2112833,00.asp
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/04/11...doing-so-good/
I can put this stuff up all day, its pretty common knowledge, except to the clueless
and terminally stupid:1:
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Gee, i belive everything is in decline as money being spent is abit short these days but you go ahead and read into that anyway you want.
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"Plasma is Dead"
Ummm... one question:
WHO CARES????
Does the death or life of plasma really affect consumers???
In the case of HD-DVD dying it screws consumers who own players, since it means no new movies will be released in their format (eventually)... so if they want HD quality movies they need to either download or get Blu-Ray... BUT since Plasma, LCD, RPTV, etc are all compatible with cable/dish/dvd/vhs/Wii/PS3/XBox 360/whatever, then how does its decrease in popularity affect owners???
IMHO, TV is one of the few places in the HT world, where the more alternative technologies there are - the better.... it just gives consumers more choices and more price ranges....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
A friends brother drank himself to death, saw his best friend walk around headless for a few seconds while in NAM, that guy was DEAD.
If the market for something with the investment of billions that plasma has is a paltry
11.4 million start shopping for caskets
So, given that your brain already seems to be inactive, should we now consider you DEAD as well? :thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Its ALREADY happened, dillweed.
And since every cell fone in the world has oled it wont take long for OLED to catch on
and go down in price, it only took a few years for LCD prices to crash, and it cost more to make one than an OLED.
Theres talk of making OLED screens with bubblejet printers, and OLED paint that , when applied to a wall, will turn into an OLED screen.
If Samsung is saying that OLED will take at least two more years before they can be introduced in large screen sizes (and presumably at higher prices than LCD and plasma), I'd say that OLED is not a market force in the HDTV market right now, or in the near future.
If you want to limit your TV viewing to puny 3" phone screens or that $2,500 Sony 11" model just so you can prove your OLED bona fides, be my guest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
THEY HAVE WORSE "ISSUES".
Sony got out of plasma and others are getting out too, I'd get you some "crayons " if
you knew how to use them.
Sony is one of if not the biggest manufacturer od video displays and they aint touching Plasma, are you too stupid to understand why?
Nice try, but we ain't playing horseshoes here. Sony got out of plasma because they relied entirely on outsource vendors, or do you not know that Panasonic and Samsung make their own plasma panels? No need to get me any crayons, since I can connect the dots just fine. You obviously still have cognitive challenges there. :lol:
If not for their joint venture arrangement with Samsung, Sony would be in a world of trouble in the flat panel market. Samsung operates shared and sole ownership facilities for both LCD and plasma, Sony does not have any independent capacity of their own. Samsung would seem to be a stronger market position here, and they are continuing to invest in plasma. I'm not even going to ask if you're too stupid to understand this, because I'm sure you'll come up with some other illogical rant in response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
THE ONLY THING TO DO WITH THIS DECISION IS OVERCAPACITY IN THE PLASMA MARKET.
The price is going down just to compete with LCD , which it cant do.
Overcapacity is industrywide, Einstein. It's not limited to Why do you think there's so much consolidation occurring throughout the display panel industry? Panasonic and Samsung, the top two plasma manufacturers, are doing just fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
The only market niche is highq and the highq is a matter of opinion, and OLED and improvement in LCD, adding to the fact that LCD is more trouble free would be enough to kill Plasma, except that plasma IS ALREADY DEAD
So, by your logic, if OLED is going to take over the market years down the road, then we should also consider LCD already dead? Why not presume that yet another technology 20 years from now will knock OLED off of its annointed throne, and presume it dead before it even arrives? Hell, why not just say that we're all dead given that we'll all die within the next 70 or so years? That's the kind of pencilneck logic you're offering up here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
AND THEY ARE BLEEDING RED INK trying to keep their own "price points", and are next to drop plasma like a hot potato, just as soon as they can figure out how to without killing what little is left of the market, which is SHRINKING not growing
The overall market is growing. The only thing that's shrinking is plasma's market share, and that's entirely a price driven equation. Yet, plasma manufacturers have been able to maintain higher margins, whereas the LCD margins are in free fall. LCDs are selling in unit volume, but the profitability is shrinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
I'm the one whos rational around here, you talk about "speculation" and then mention
a marketing BS lie ABOUT 25 MILLION BY 2012???:crazy:
A market projection by a reputable trade group is not a lie. You, on the other hand, are quite adept with the lying concept, so I have no idea how you missed that distinction here!
You, rational? That's actually funny, but sorry to report that funny isn't the same as rational... :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
I'll give you a more accurate "prediction" ACE, a projection of ZERO sales by 2012.
Why?
BECAUSE PLASMA IS DEAD:1:
Whatever Mr "Scientist" I'm sure if you were a doctor, you'd have quite a bedside manner. If a patient comes in with the hiccups or needs an allergy, you'd just order up a death certificate on the spot!
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Would someone please explain to me why Plasma is bad? I understand that there were serious reliability problems several years ago, but I was under the impression those have long since been eradicated. eg screen burn in etc. It seems that just when they get a technology right after several years, the technology becomes obsolete?? The reason for my 'concern', is that many LCD displays I've seen don't look entirely convincing in terms of a natural picture. The contrast is off. The blacks are way over done and the picture starts looking like a cartoon in a sense. Does anyone else notice this? The latest 1920x1080 native rez plasmas look more realistic to me. This is one thing I love about my Loewe. The latest technologies will probably provide a bit more detail, but the CRT ends up looking more real to life - sort of like good tube amps vs whiz bang solid state amps if you get my meaning.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
"Plasma is Dead"
Ummm... one question:
WHO CARES????
Does the death or life of plasma really affect consumers???
In the case of HD-DVD dying it screws consumers who own players, since it means no new movies will be released in their format (eventually)... so if they want HD quality movies they need to either download or get Blu-Ray... BUT since Plasma, LCD, RPTV, etc are all compatible with cable/dish/dvd/vhs/Wii/PS3/XBox 360/whatever, then how does its decrease in popularity affect owners???
IMHO, TV is one of the few places in the HT world, where the more alternative technologies there are - the better.... it just gives consumers more choices and more price ranges....
Well said. Who gives a rat's arse?
I have LCD that I am happy with. I don't care if they stop making LCDs tomorrow. Mine will still work fine.
Maybe I am wrong but I think Pixless was trolling. Nah, Pixless would never do that. Would he? :nono:
Pix, do we need to put you away in the closet where we have that old printer stored?
JSE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Shag
Would someone please explain to me why Plasma is bad? I understand that there were serious reliability problems several years ago, but I was under the impression those have long since been eradicated. eg screen burn in etc. It seems that just when they get a technology right after several years, the technology becomes obsolete?? The reason for my 'concern', is that many LCD displays I've seen don't look entirely convincing in terms of a natural picture. The contrast is off. The blacks are way over done and the picture starts looking like a cartoon in a sense. Does anyone else notice this? The latest 1920x1080 native rez plasmas look more realistic to me. This is one thing I love about my Loewe. The latest technologies will probably provide a bit more detail, but the CRT ends up looking more real to life - sort of like good tube amps vs whiz bang solid state amps if you get my meaning.
Plasma is not bad at all. Pix just owns an LCD so therefore, plasma is evil. Plasma has a better picture quality than LCD but does have other drawbacks. You get to choose which means more to you. LCD on average uses less electric, has less glare, weighs less, and are brighter. Plasmas have better black level, richer colors, and better off center viewing. The price edge goes to LCD on anything under 50 inch. Plasma for anything over. Both are getting better with their short comings. Where one used to be way better at something in the past, they are now just a little better. Burn in and glare for plasmas are a thing of the past. Newer models are much better. Screen door effect and blurry movements for LCD is going bye bye as well. In the end, (or make that the next few years) LCD should sell more because of what they do better appeals to the masses more than the better PQ of a plasma.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Shag
Would someone please explain to me why Plasma is bad? I understand that there were serious reliability problems several years ago, but I was under the impression those have long since been eradicated. eg screen burn in etc. It seems that just when they get a technology right after several years, the technology becomes obsolete?? The reason for my 'concern', is that many LCD displays I've seen don't look entirely convincing in terms of a natural picture. The contrast is off. The blacks are way over done and the picture starts looking like a cartoon in a sense. Does anyone else notice this? The latest 1920x1080 native rez plasmas look more realistic to me. This is one thing I love about my Loewe. The latest technologies will probably provide a bit more detail, but the CRT ends up looking more real to life - sort of like good tube amps vs whiz bang solid state amps if you get my meaning.
Reason is because pixel relies on old information, and equates opinion pieces with fact.
I share your opinion of LCD. Both LCD and plasma have addressed their greatest weaknesses in the past year -- LCD has gone to LED backlighting and 120 Hz refresh rates to address weaknesses with black levels and reducing motion blur (though plasma still has an advantage with measured motion resolution), while plasma has added 1080p resolution and 1080p24 mode options (the reliability and burn in issues were resolved years ago). While LCD is now comparable in price with plasma in the screen sizes below 50", features like LED backlighting and 120 Hz refresh will still push the prices above plasma.
Among the HDTVs I've seen over the years, the CRT direct view models remain the best from an image quality standpoint, and they don't lose any picture quality when playing SD sources. But, consumers want larger screen sizes and don't want to deal with the bulk and weight of CRT, so that segment is now almost gone.
LCD and plasma are both direct view flat panel segment, but both approaches have tradeoffs. That's why I don't think plasma will go away until a technology with a more clearcut advantage can compete in the same price space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSE
Well said. Who gives a rat's arse?
I have LCD that I am happy with. I don't care if they stop making LCDs tomorrow. Mine will still work fine.
Yep, and that's a point that seems to have flown over his head. He bought his Vizio LCD on the cheap, and he's suddenly second-tier LCD fanboi extraordinaire!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSE
Maybe I am wrong but I think Pixless was trolling. Nah, Pixless would never do that. Would he?
Pix, trolling?! Oh, but he sounds SSSSSOOOOO serious when talking about how he's never lost an argument with anyone on this board! :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSE
Pix, do we need to put you away in the closet where we have that old printer stored?
Nah, at least his trolling doesn't involve stealing other people's material! :cool: I can't think of anyone else who would write some of the inane nonsense that he posts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
And 11.4 million does not equate to DEAD, so who's wrong now Mr "Scientist"?
A friends brother drank himself to death, saw his best friend walk around headless for a few seconds while in NAM, that guy was DEAD.
If the market for something with the investment of billions that plasma has is a paltry
11.4 million start shopping for caskets
Quote:
If you're referring to OLED, that won't happen for years. And when alternative technologies like OLED finally reach viable price points, LCD would likely go down first, since most of their market share is in the smaller screen sizes.
Its ALREADY happened, dillweed.
And since every cell fone in the world has oled it wont take long for OLED to catch on
and go down in price, it only took a few years for LCD prices to crash, and it cost more to make one than an OLED.
Theres talk of making OLED screens with bubblejet printers, and OLED paint that , when applied to a wall, will turn into an OLED screen.
You can roll an oled up and put it in a tube, small size is the market for mow but that
will change SOON
Quote:
And all the while, Panasonic and Samsung have been investing in their plasma technologies, and maintaining a healthy margin in that segment. Pioneer's problem is that they overpaid for NEC's production facility (which at the time was providing Sony with plasma panels, and Pioneer's acquisition occured just as Sony exited the segment), and fell behind their competitors technologically. Pioneer bought NEC's production facility assuming that they could count on the outsource volume from Sony. Once Pioneer lost Sony, they had way too much Panasonic and Samsung don't have any of these issues, and their production volume is upwards of 10X greater than Pioneer's to begin with.
THEY HAVE WORSE "ISSUES".
Sony got out of plasma and others are getting out too, I'd get you some "crayons " if
you knew how to use them.
Sony is one of if not the biggest manufacturer od video displays and they aint touching Plasma, are you too stupid to understand why?
Quote:
Plus, it doesn't hurt that Sharp recently took out an ownership stake in Pioneer. Think that doesn't have anything to do with this decision? Keep those crayons out, you might yet comprehend this game of connect-the-dots one of these days!
THE ONLY THING TO DO WITH THIS DECISION IS OVERCAPACITY IN THE PLASMA MARKET.
The price is going down just to compete with LCD , which it cant do.
The only market niche is highq and the highq is a matter of opinion, and OLED and improvement in LCD, adding to the fact that LCD is more trouble free would be enough to kill Plasma, except that plasma IS ALREADY DEAD
Quote:
Wrong again. Panasonic and Samsung are doing just fine, and are primarily responsible for Pioneer's problems. Pioneer could not match their price points, and they've now erased Pioneer's picture quality advantage. Anything else to draw from that article is pure speculation.
AND THEY ARE BLEEDING RED INK trying to keep their own "price points", and are next to drop plasma like a hot potato, just as soon as they can figure out how to without killing what little is left of the market, which is SHRINKING not growing
Quote:
Like I said, 11.4 million in sales and a projected 25 million by 2012 doesn't square with any rational definition of DEAD. Of course, that's presuming that I'm dealing with a rational opinionator here!
I'm the one whos rational around here, you talk about "speculation" and then mention
a marketing BS lie ABOUT 25 MILLION BY 2012???:crazy:
I'll give you a more accurate "prediction" ACE, a projection of ZERO sales by 2012.
Why?
BECAUSE PLASMA IS DEAD:1:
Looks like Wooch have found his match :D
Good thread guys http://www.eyecravedvd.com/forums/im...milies/top.gif
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GM and Wooch - thanks much for the clarification. I have seen good LCD sets of late and good plasmas. I guess the performance gap is closing between the two. But the best large screen plasmas, while expensive, definitely look better to me. Mind you I've not seen that $30k Bravia LCD from Sony yet.
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I have A Sony 52" XBR4 LCD TV and it gives a great picture but it U really could not tell any difference in Black levels when seen side by side next to a panasonic plasma with 1080p. There's no doubt to me that the Pansonic Plasma had a better picture and was cheaper. But my choice in buying the LCD was do to room brightness and reflection. Had my family room not had so many big windows I would have gone the Plasma route. I think that both technologies have their place and appeal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Plasma is not bad at all. Pix just owns an LCD so therefore, plasma is evil. Plasma has a better picture quality than LCD but does have other drawbacks. You get to choose which means more to you. LCD on average uses less electric, has less glare, weighs less, and are brighter. Plasmas have better black level, richer colors, and better off center viewing. The price edge goes to LCD on anything under 50 inch. Plasma for anything over. Both are getting better with their short comings. Where one used to be way better at something in the past, they are now just a little better. Burn in and glare for plasmas are a thing of the past. Newer models are much better. Screen door effect and blurry movements for LCD is going bye bye as well. In the end, (or make that the next few years) LCD should sell more because of what they do better appeals to the masses more than the better PQ of a plasma.
WHATEVER
The problem with sity different ways of doing things is that each requires a monumental effort.
So lets have two or even three, thats a lot, but do we really need lcd, plasma, dlp, rptv,
oled, etc.
They fewer form factors the industry has to focus on the better the products they will come out with.
Armies of engineers , each working on something different, its a monumental waste of
effort.
Besides WOOCH IS A BIG PLASMA FANBOY, and if they go extinct he will cry like a little baby.
If trying to get a disscussion going is "trolling" then so be it:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
WHATEVER
The problem with sity different ways of doing things is that each requires a monumental effort.
So lets have two or even three, thats a lot, but do we really need lcd, plasma, dlp, rptv,
oled, etc.
They fewer form factors the industry has to focus on the better the products they will come out with.
Armies of engineers , each working on something different, its a monumental waste of
effort.
Besides WOOCH IS A BIG PLASMA FANBOY, and if they go extinct he will cry like a little baby.
If trying to get a disscussion going is "trolling" then so be it:1:
I didn't mean to call you a troll dude. I find your posts very entertaining. But some of your views are a little extreme. Although there is a lot of fact mixed in with what you are saying, you do seem to see things in black & white. The world is a little more grey (like it or not). Plasma is not as bad as you make it out to be. Even though much of what you say is true, you are only focusing on the bad and ignoring the good. And even that's fine for you. I felt that it was my duty to point out the other side for any lurkers out there using this site as a guide to what they are going to spend their cash on.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
WHATEVER
The problem with sity different ways of doing things is that each requires a monumental effort.
So lets have two or even three, thats a lot, but do we really need lcd, plasma, dlp, rptv,
oled, etc.
Let's see, if there was such thing as a perfect technology to fulfill all of the different expectations with HDTVs, why would all of these competing approaches even exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
They fewer form factors the industry has to focus on the better the products they will come out with.
Armies of engineers , each working on something different, its a monumental waste of
effort.
Psst, that's otherwise known as COMPETITION, Mr "Libertarian"! :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Besides WOOCH IS A BIG PLASMA FANBOY, and if they go extinct he will cry like a little baby.
Quite the contrary. If they go extinct, it will be because a better technology will have come along at a lower price point. LCD ain't gonna be that technology. I prefer to focus on performance. If I were buying right now, I'd go with plasma. If I were buying a few years from now, I'd see what's out there and decide at that point. If that defines a fanboy, then you're stretching the bounds of nonsensical hyperbole as usual. Then again, with your ramblings, I gotta wonder if your grasp on sanity or logic is more tenuous. :crazy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
If trying to get a disscussion going is "trolling" then so be it:1:
I guess we can now add troll and fanboy to the list of concepts that elude your comprehension! :sleep:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Let's see, if there was such thing as a perfect technology to fulfill all of the different expectations with HDTVs, why would all of these competing approaches even exist?
Why did we have several different types of automotive tech? Or two kinds of videotape?
We even had two types of DVD (divix and "straight" dvd)
Several groups of people trying to solve the same problem in different ways.
If the plasma manufacturers had even dreamed that LCD WOULD get so cheap and
SO good so FAST they never would have built a plasma set
Quote:
Psst, that's otherwise known as COMPETITION, Mr "Libertarian"! :lol:
YES, and its great, but this shaking out in video display is taking forever.
Looks like RPTV is the next casualty, then Plasma
Quote:
Quite the contrary. If they go extinct, it will be because a better technology will have come along at a lower price point. LCD ain't gonna be that technology. I prefer to focus on performance. If I were buying right now, I'd go with plasma. If I were buying a few years from now, I'd see what's out there and decide at that point. If that defines a fanboy, then you're stretching the bounds of nonsensical hyperbole as usual. Then again, with your ramblings, I gotta wonder if your grasp on sanity or logic is more tenuous. :crazy:
LCD IS THAT "TECHNOLOGY"
The one thing that really pisses me of about you plasma fanboys is you automatically presume that plasma has a better picture,
WHICH IS VERY SUBJECTIVE.
You must be a kid, or you forgot that when plasma first came out the picture was washed
out, grainy, looked like crap.
The picture is better today, but LCD is every bit as good (higher end anyway)
The main problem with plasma that people complained about was "black level", in other words it sucked.
Todays problems with plasma are leaking gas envelopes, massive energy usage,
burn in, and radiaton , paticulary ultraviolet.
But hey if you sit far enough away mayby your kids strange features will only be your genetic heritage
Quote:
I guess we can now add troll and fanboy to the list of concepts that elude your comprehension! :sleep:
I guess we can add a lack of comprehension of ANYTHING to yours.
Plasma is doomed, and theres one factor you've missed (well one out of thousands)
Plasma is a lot more expensive to make, ship, and service.
Eventually the industry will kill the market for them on purpose, just so they can standardize production into one form factor.
This has happened before, will happen again:1:
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Pioneer, who makes the best display devices of 50" and up is not done making plasma displays. They are just subbing out the manufacture of the plasma panels to Panasonic (who makes crappy display devices of 50" and up). Plasma panels will be made to Pioneer's specification. All internal electronics (the most important part of the device) in the finished plasma displays will still be made by Pioneer.
Anyone that is at all critical of display devices knows that plasma is far superior to LCD, and will be for some time. OLED may cure LCD's many faults, but for now plasma is the only digital display device that can produce BLACK. The Pioneer KURO plasma displays are the current standard of the industry. Absolutely nothing looks as good, except for a direct-view CRT or a CRT projector in a black room.
LCD is cheap, that's about all it has going for it.
Pay no attention to my avatar.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Looks like RPTV is the next casualty, then Plasma
OK, I'm confused. :confused:
I thought you said Plasma "IS" dead? Now your telling me we first have to wait for RPTV to bite the dust before we can all jump for joy that Plasma is pushing daisies? You had me all worked up in the delight that Plasma is dead. I had a "death party" planned and everything. You guys were going to be invited. How stupid would I look now if I threw the party celebrating Plasma's death? I had cake! How Stupid would I look if I was standing there lighting the candles and the supposedly "dead" plasma hanging on the wall at the bar all of a sudden turned on? It's Alive!
Thanks a lot PIX! You owe me $20 for the cake.
Friggin Plasma. :mad2:
JSE
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Oh Good Lord help me some days...this is still goin' on?
I have a nice, convenient,one-dimensional workhorse of an LCD for my computer use and occasional movie use. The energy savings makes me feel like a responsible member of the Green Community until...
I turn on my big, honkin', black, realistic plasma and burn up generators. Sometimes I leave the unit on for hours while I go out and throw styrofoam into the woods and laugh at Sally Struthers. I do this as a form of social protest against the generations before me that ran the country into debt and will use up my Social Security.
Both technologies are currently alive and kicking. Both technologies are doomed. Blah, blah,blah...test on Friday.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
test on Friday.[/I]
Whoa! A test?!
Chit! I didn't study.:eek6:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Why did we have several different types of automotive tech? Or two kinds of videotape?
What part of competition do you not understand, Mr. Friedman?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Several groups of people trying to solve the same problem in different ways.
If the plasma manufacturers had even dreamed that LCD WOULD get so cheap and
SO good so FAST they never would have built a plasma set
And big screen plasma sets have been on the market for how long now? More than a decade? So, in your view of competition, plasma manufacturers should have just sat still and done nothing when a market opportunity was available to them? You are just such a capitalist! :lol:
So, I guess in your clairvoyant view of the world, LCD manufacturers should just quit now because OLED's going to take over the market within the next ten years? Nice logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
YES, and its great, but this shaking out in video display is taking forever.
Maybe because there's no single technology out there that does not have a significant drawback of some kind? :thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
LCD IS THAT "TECHNOLOGY"
The one thing that really pisses me of about you plasma fanboys is you automatically presume that plasma has a better picture,
WHICH IS VERY SUBJECTIVE.
Nope, performance parameters are very easy to measure, and brightness is the only measure where LCD consistently outperforms plasma. If you're talking about black levels, contrast, color accuracy, image consistency, and motion resolution, plasma sets generally outperform LCD. If LCD were "THAT TECHNOLOGY," it would outperform plasma, LCoS, DLP et al in every category, or even most. It doesn't, so therefore it's not.
Subjective is what it is, and in my viewings, plasma delivers the better picture. Difference is that my opinion squares with what the objective measures demonstrate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
You must be a kid, or you forgot that when plasma first came out the picture was washed
out, grainy, looked like crap.
And LCD wasn't much better, or are you forgetting that at your old age? :sosp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
The picture is better today, but LCD is every bit as good (higher end anyway)
If that's the case, then how come most LCD sets still don't perform well with motion resolution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
The main problem with plasma that people complained about was "black level", in other words it sucked.
Todays problems with plasma are leaking gas envelopes, massive energy usage,
burn in, and radiaton , paticulary ultraviolet.
Once again, recycling decade-old talking points as if they are relevant to today's models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
But hey if you sit far enough away mayby your kids strange features will only be your genetic heritage
Ah, so now the personal attacks have stretched to include the kids. How classy of you! :rolleyes:
I guess you really don't have much material left, and to think your career as a comedian was off to such a brilliant start, however unintentional your humor might have been! :11:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
I guess we can add a lack of comprehension of ANYTHING to yours.
Right, given that you're back to regurgitating debunked points about gas leakage, energy usage, and costs, that speaks more about YOUR comprehension than anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Plasma is doomed
Why not just say what you're really thinking ... WE'RE ALL DOOMED BECAUSE WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE SOMEDAY! Your oh-so-sunshiney disposition must really be a joy to be around!
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Plasma is a lot more expensive to make, ship, and service.
And plasma also has a larger average screen size, think that has something to do with this?
And if plasma's that much more expensive to make, then how does Panasonic get away with pricing their 1080p sets so that they undercut what the 120 Hz LCD sets cost?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Eventually the industry will kill the market for them on purpose, just so they can standardize production into one form factor.
This has happened before, will happen again:1:
Why would the industry kill the segment that currently delivers the largest direct view screen sizes (70" already on the market, and 150" demo models already built), and has the highest performance in some key measures? And all the while, the segment remains a profitable niche for the biggest players? This isn't like Blu-ray v. HD-DVD, which relied on the hardware matching the software specs. So long as plasma and LCD sets use the same connection standards and can play the same source material, it's irrelevant to "the industry" whether one or both segments remain in the market.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
What part of competition do you not understand, Mr. Friedman?
a LOT BETTER THAN YOU.
Why is there only one type of dvd? automobile? (internal combustion)
Eventually a form factor gets chosen, and the others fall by the wayside or become niche products
Quote:
And big screen plasma sets have been on the market for how long now? More than a decade? So, in your view of competition, plasma manufacturers should have just sat still and done nothing when a market opportunity was available to them? You are just such a capitalist! :lol:
Capitalists think in terms of decades, the emergence of LCD happened practically overnight, plasma is an inferiour product that the consumer is rejecting as we speak.
If "capitalists " had known that it was only gonna last as long as 2010 at most they wouldnt have spent billions on it.
Spending billions on an expensive tech , even if the govt did subsidize it, on a product that will be gone in a decade is not a "market niche", its financial suicide
Quote:
So, I guess in your clairvoyant view of the world, LCD manufacturers should just quit now because OLED's going to take over the market within the next ten years? Nice logic.
LCD has already made its way, and will make billions more, but it is doomed.
OLED has a perfect black level, wont explain why to you because a chimp only understands a banana, its also .17 in thick.
The latest "superthin" sets dont even approach that.
BEING ABLE TO ROLL ONE UP AND PUT IT IN A TUBE IS NICE ALSO.
OLED is to lcd AND plasma what the joint strike fighter is to a p51 mustang.
The mustang is nice but DANG is it even close to the newest toy?
AND IT WILL BE HERE SOONEST, a lot sooner than most think
Quote:
Maybe because there's no single technology out there that does not have a significant drawback of some kind? :thumbsup:
Some tech has drawbacks but not all are significant.
This is known as a generalization and like most such is wrong
Quote:
Nope, performance parameters are very easy to measure, and brightness is the only measure where LCD consistently outperforms plasma. If you're talking about black levels, contrast, color accuracy, image consistency, and motion resolution, plasma sets generally outperform LCD. If LCD were "THAT TECHNOLOGY," it would outperform plasma, LCoS, DLP et al in every category, or even most. It doesn't, so therefore it's not.
There is no set standard for black level or most of the other parameters you mention.
Its totally subjective. performance IS easy to measure but theres no standard, so it mainly boils down to what you like.
And most are deciding that the picture of an LCD is just as good as a plasma.
Which isn't a surprize to those who know more than you (just about everybody)
Things you dont consider "important" (long life, inexpensive to use, brightness, and no GLARE whatsoever ) when factored into the very close specs in the PQ area make the
LCD a hands down winner
Quote:
Subjective is what it is, and in my viewings, plasma delivers the better picture. Difference is that my opinion squares with what the objective measures demonstrate.
And that is a subjective statement.
THERE IS NO "OBJECTIVE" measure of tv DISPLAYS , but most concede that the ONLY area in which plasma is "better" is a very slight black level advantage and a slightly "smoother" pic, which some preceive as a lack of sharpness.
our hobby rides on a sea of mass market, if the great unwashed reject your toy it doesnt matter why, a complicated thing like a plasma tv requires hugh economies of scale,
once the numbers drop below a certain number they will cease.
The ONLY thing they have going for them is snobs such as yourself, you dont like LCD for one reason , EVERYBODY else likes them.
Once OLED takes off, the "niche" of PQ OVER any kind of common sense will be gone,
which is plasmas main market
Quote:
And LCD wasn't much better, or are you forgetting that at your old age? :sosp:
LCD was WORSE, but has improved much more than plasma
Quote:
If that's the case, then how come most LCD sets still don't perform well with motion resolution?
You're joking , right? Thuis old bugaboo never was much of a problem and with 120 hz sets has been done away with entirely.
But you dont even need that, an eight millisecond refresh rate does away with it quite
nicely, and there are FOUR millisecond sets out there if that still aint enough.
Why dont you bring up the old "screen door" crap while you're at it?
I am about five feet away from my set and cant discern ANY pixel structure whatsoever
Quote:
Once again, recycling decade-old talking points as if they are relevant to today's models.
Look at the pot calling the kettle black, bring up "lag" and other nonsense that never was much of a problem to begin with in the first place
Quote:
Ah, so now the personal attacks have stretched to include the kids. How classy of you! :rolleyes:
THANKS
Quote:
I guess you really don't have much material left, and to think your career as a comedian was off to such a brilliant start, however unintentional your humor might have been! :11:
yOUR CAREER as one is assured, just keep doing what you've been doing, getting your tech advice from cheech and chong
Quote:
Right, given that you're back to regurgitating debunked points about gas leakage, energy usage, and costs, that speaks more about YOUR comprehension than anything.
THEY ARE not "DEBUNKED", they are still serious problems.
especially price, 1080p in plasma is so much more expensive than LCD that most are passing on them
Quote:
Why not just say what you're really thinking ... WE'RE ALL DOOMED BECAUSE WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE SOMEDAY! Your oh-so-sunshiney disposition must really be a joy to be around!
Again, THANKS
Quote:
And plasma also has a larger average screen size, think that has something to do with this?
Who cares? THE market for such sizes is a lot smaller
Quote:
And if plasma's that much more expensive to make, then how does Panasonic get away with pricing their 1080p sets so that they undercut what the 120 Hz LCD sets cost?
THE 120HZ is in itself a small part of the market.
And Panasonic is owned by MATSHUHITA, one of the largest comglomerates
on the planet.
They could sell gold for ten bucks an ounce for a year and not lose enough of their rather large pie to wory about
Quote:
Why would the industry kill the segment that currently delivers the largest direct view screen sizes (70" already on the market, and 150" demo models already built), and has the highest performance in some key measures? And all the while, the segment remains a profitable niche for the biggest players? This isn't like Blu-ray v. HD-DVD, which relied on the hardware matching the software specs. So long as plasma and LCD sets use the same connection standards and can play the same source material, it's irrelevant to "the industry" whether one or both segments remain in the market.
You really are clueless arent you?
THE 70 AND 150 MARKETS ARE SMALL, not even worth worrying about.
And your subjective assesment of plasma quality, even if true, isnt a deciding factor in the marketplace.
Only a small percentage of the market buys a set based on subjective things like "black level", etc. you think people are out there measuring such when they buy a set?
Everybody who buys a lcd in my circle, know what they talk about?
The bright glarefree picture!
Tv companies put the default setting for contrast on "TORCH" mode (with enthusaists
complaining all the time) for a reason, people like a bright picture.
And the list of tech that was strangled in the grave for financial reasons is rather large.
LASER was only supported by pioneer, most thought that laser would hurt VCRS.
fm radio was very superiour to AM, but RCA tried to kill IT because they thought it
would take sales away from their new toy, TELEVISION.
EVERY PLASMA B "sale" has a major problem, its not an lcd sale.
If it sells too many it will be finished because its canabalizing lcd sales at a high cost.
In other words why go to the expense of making plasma when people will buy LCD if it doesnt exist?
This is one of the reasons that video rental companies were reluctant to go to DVD,
why bother if VIDEOCASSETTE is "good enough"?
And its the reason that a lot of broadcasters fought HD, AND STEREO TV.
Why invest in the good stuff if people will buy crud?
On the other hand if not enough sets of teh plasdma variety arent sold it will be killed off for being nonprofiftable.
Either way its going to be killed off. For marketing reasons if nothing else.
THEY DODGED a few bullets, settling the leaking gas and burn in lawsuits out of court and keeping them quiet, but plasma isnt a cat, it doesnt have nine lives.
Eventually it wont be worth the trouble.
WHICH IS WHY PLASMA IS DEAD:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSE
OK, I'm confused. :confused:
I thought you said Plasma "IS" dead? Now your telling me we first have to wait for RPTV to bite the dust before we can all jump for joy that Plasma is pushing daisies? You had me all worked up in the delight that Plasma is dead. I had a "death party" planned and everything. You guys were going to be invited. How stupid would I look now if I threw the party celebrating Plasma's death? I had cake! How Stupid would I look if I was standing there lighting the candles and the supposedly "dead" plasma hanging on the wall at the bar all of a sudden turned on? It's Alive!
Thanks a lot PIX! You owe me $20 for the cake.
Friggin Plasma. :mad2:
JSE
sorry for the miscommunication.
When SONY quit the RPTV market that was offical notice, like an obit in the paper,
that the form factor was DEAD.
THE ORDER I stated was correct, but I failed to point out that we've already passed the point for RPTV.
Business models dont turn on a dime, there are still some RPTVS out there, but probably no new ones in the pipeline.
People like thin, thin is IN, and RPTV doesnt "measure up".
You can still get a corpse at wallmart (RCA DLP 50IN 999$) or a mitsubisi (73in 2300$)
IF you want the biggest bang for the buck and are into necrophillia.
But for most , not only is RPTV DEAD, THEY DIDNT EVEN NOTICE that it was starving to death in the basement.
So go ahead and eat your cake, but dont give any to wooch, I've already fed him so much hes starting to bloat:1:
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