Onkyo goes Retro

[E-Stat]

Then again I can't name a single manufacturer who makes truly balanced stereo amp at under $2500.

Parasound makes one for about a grand. Halo A23.

rw

[Woochifer]

Integra was just a upper line of Onkyo when it first came out. Somewhere down the line they split off, for financial reason more than likely. I still have an Onkyo Integra Cassette Deck where both names are on the face plate and everywhere else.

What I find odd is that these new units are NOT badged as Integra. Does that mean they will not really be all that great? Or does it mean that a unit badged as Onkyo will now be the same or better than one badged as Integra?

Is there anything new similar or better on the Integra front?

These guys do look real cool though.

This is nothing more than a supply chain technicality. Originally, the Grand Integra line was indeed Onkyo's cost-no-object product line. But, once Onkyo sold more of their stuff through mass merchandisers like Fry's and Circuit City, they needed a carrot to keep their specialty retailers from fleeing to other competitors. By rebranding their higher level gear (and rebadging some of their lower level products) as Integra, they keep a segment of their product out of the mass merchandising channels. It's no different than how Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Pioneer, etc. allow certain renumbered products into mass merchandising channels, but keep others out.

Consider this a lesson learned from JBL's disastrous entry into the mass market. When JBL introduced a new entry level speaker lineup, they also added mass merchandisers and discount stores to their dealer network. Once this happened, most of their independent specialty dealers dropped the entire JBL lineup.

One of the long-time dealers in my area said that he was a huge fan of JBL's products, but he won't support his competition, so he dropped JBL more than 25 years ago, picked up B&W and never looked back. JBL's blunder coincided with the ascent of the Canadian speaker manufacturers (e.g., Energy, Paradigm, PSB, et al) and other new full line manufacturers like Polk and Boston Acoustics, as a lot of former JBL dealers added those lines to their offerings. Even to this day, JBL still makes different lines of high end cost-no-object speakers, but good luck finding a dealer in North America that carries them.

The lesson here is that any manufacturer that decides to go mass market needs to take some steps to protect their specialty dealers, or risk getting their products dropped altogether.

[blackraven]

Great pic.

Then again I can't name a single manufacturer who makes truly balanced stereo amp at under $2500.

Whatchu think?

My Parasound Halo A21 is fully balanced at $2200

[pixelthis]

This is nothing more than a supply chain technicality. Originally, the Grand Integra line was indeed Onkyo's cost-no-object product line. But, once Onkyo sold more of their stuff through mass merchandisers like Fry's and Circuit City, they needed a carrot to keep their specialty retailers from fleeing to other competitors. By rebranding their higher level gear (and rebadging some of their lower level products) as Integra, they keep a segment of their product out of the mass merchandising channels. It's no different than how Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Pioneer, etc. allow certain renumbered products into mass merchandising channels, but keep others out.

Consider this a lesson learned from JBL's disastrous entry into the mass market. When JBL introduced a new entry level speaker lineup, they also added mass merchandisers and discount stores to their dealer network. Once this happened, most of their independent specialty dealers dropped the entire JBL lineup.

One of the long-time dealers in my area said that he was a huge fan of JBL's products, but he won't support his competition, so he dropped JBL more than 25 years ago, picked up B&W and never looked back. JBL's blunder coincided with the ascent of the Canadian speaker manufacturers (e.g., Energy, Paradigm, PSB, et al) and other new full line manufacturers like Polk and Boston Acoustics, as a lot of former JBL dealers added those lines to their offerings. Even to this day, JBL still makes different lines of high end cost-no-object speakers, but good luck finding a dealer in North America that carries them.

The lesson here is that any manufacturer that decides to go mass market needs to take some steps to protect their specialty dealers, or risk getting their products dropped altogether.

and once you destroy your rep its hard to get back.
I bought a JBL sub off of the "trash table" at Sears, a hundred bucks. And it was one
of the best I HAVE EVER HAD. Tight clean well defined bass, best bargain I have ever had, pretty much.
MEANWHILE a lot of manufacturers have a "high end" line to cover their keister when they go "mass market", with mixed results.
As for the Canadian invasion, that was going to happen, regardless. They built a
speaker institute and planned it. WAS GOING TO HAPPEN no matter what.
AN EXCELLENT way to get rid of excess timber.

[RGA]

Frankly if you like the meters and you want something absurdly built then have a serious look at the Grant Fidelity Rita which when I reviewed it was $4200 and is now $2950. GF is saving money by shipping direct from the plant rather than to them, first and then to you.

It's 145lb monstrosity and runs "cold" despite the big KT 88's. Shock proof and a remote that feels like a barbell a little bit so you will get a workout sitting in front of your stereo. It's also a No feedback amp

They also make some sort of SS version for less money and is a 6 channel power amp for home theater.

Still for the money - it's pretty difficult to beat. http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/RI...Tube-Amplifier

[Woochifer]

and once you destroy your rep its hard to get back.
I bought a JBL sub off of the "trash table" at Sears, a hundred bucks. And it was one
of the best I HAVE EVER HAD. Tight clean well defined bass, best bargain I have ever had, pretty much.

With a lot of those JBL dealers, the company's rep was fine. They still liked the products, but once JBL went to the big box stores, they became the competition. Specialty audio stores want their vendors to protect their back side to some degree, because they know that getting into a price war with big box stores will put them out of business in a hurry. For manufacturers, they need to play the balancing act between expanding their market reach and keeping their existing dealers on board. Look at how Paradigm is entering the mass market -- this is an example of the lessons learned.

Their Paradigm Shift lineup consists of all brand new products that will be sold online and at mass merchandisers. But, they will offer these new products to existing retailers, AND they will continue to keep their existing Paradigm and Reference lines exclusively with their specialty dealers. This is exactly how other specialty audio companies have done things since the early 90s.

MEANWHILE a lot of manufacturers have a "high end" line to cover their keister when they go "mass market", with mixed results.

Fortunately for JBL, they still have a market for their high end stuff overseas. And they still have a presence in the pro market. They painted themselves into a corner in North America. They still make a full range of speakers, but have hardly any specialty dealers left to sell them.

As for the Canadian invasion, that was going to happen, regardless. They built a
speaker institute and planned it. WAS GOING TO HAPPEN no matter what.
AN EXCELLENT way to get rid of excess timber.

The Canadian companies just happened to have perfect timing for their entry into the US market. The NRC's groundbreaking research spawned the Canadian speaker industry. I don't think it was planned for that, but it certainly enabled their emergence, by providing valuable intelligence and testing facilities. Ironic that the former head of that NRC facility now works for Harman (parent company of JBL).

JBL was the 800 lb. gorilla in the speaker market at that time (they were trading the #1 spot with Bose in the consumer market, and had the bulk of the studio and concert monitor market), and they had hundreds of dealers across the country. Once JBL got dropped by most of their dealers, the Canadian companies (along with the others I named) stepped right into that market void.

Their sound characteristics (not quite the west coast "boom and sizzle" that JBL embodied, but still lively enough to satisfy rock fans with greater accuracy) made them the perfect alternative to take over the shelf space that JBL vacated. If not for JBL's blunder, the Canadians' emergence would have taken longer, because you wouldn't have hundreds of dealers looking for alternative full line speaker vendors.

[nedkingsley]

hi folks,

i reviewed the cd player of this series today, it's in the regular database here at audioreview.com. i guess i picked the cheapest part of the setup. cdp is awesum.

[atomicAdam]

hi folks,

i reviewed the cd player of this series today, it's in the regular database here at audioreview.com. i guess i picked the cheapest part of the setup. cdp is awesum.

Thanks for letting us know.

I'll check it out.

[nedkingsley]

three weeks gone by i'm still enjoying this masterpiece, clearly my best piece of equipment now, see my signature

[Mr Peabody]

Ned, welcome to AR. You have the same TT rig as I, just curious if you've ever tried any other cartridge than the Ellys. I haven't yet but thinking of trying a Dynavector. You feel the Onkyo CDP sounds better than your turntable?

[nedkingsley]

@Mr. Peabody: no I never tried another cartridge with P3-24, but just yesterday I was gonna give the Cambridge Audio Phono Pre - the one that earned 5 what.hifi stars a try... Not gonna happen due to immense hum, turned out that the internal mass cable solution from rega at the P3-24(I have the piano edition with no seperate mass cable) is not compatible with some Phono Preamplifiers and I did not want to modify cabling for that purpose(trying another preamp). I used to listen to an Ortofon Vinyl Master Red on a different TT before. There was no hiss at all with no record in my collection and very airy treble, really delightfull, miss that aspect sometimes with the elys/p3-24, because some records show hiss in my system now, but can be a worn needle, got it from display and the belt was quite loose already, replaced that..

About the "ranking" that i implied, the CDP can hold complex recordings pretty good together when tempo can seem a little lost on the TT, but also have to admit that TT resolves the stage better, easier to distinct between different instruments. CDP has louder vocals, mids - it's up to the record/album, what i prefer.

Anybody heard the CDP? Perhaps in showroom...

[Mr Peabody]

I'd like to hear the set up but no one has it around here that I'm aware of.