Next-gen DVD players unveiled at CES

[Geoffcin]

LOS ANGELES - Warring factions in a battle for control of next-generation DVDs on Wednesday unveiled products at wildly varying prices, reflecting their views on what it takes to jump-start an multibillion dollar industry.

Full story;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10710173/

[GMichael]

LOS ANGELES - Warring factions in a battle for control of next-generation DVDs on Wednesday unveiled products at wildly varying prices, reflecting their views on what it takes to jump-start an multibillion dollar industry.

Full story;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10710173/

Thanks Geo. Very interesting.

[Geoffcin]

Thanks Geo. Very interesting.

"Blu-ray member Pioneer said it planned to offer a Blu-ray player in May, priced at $1,800."

"Toshiba (HD-DVD) said it would offer the first high-definition players in March, priced at $799 and $499."

Huge price difference.....

What's up with that?!

[ericl]

Apparently HD-DVD doesn't support 1080p, Blu-Ray does. if it stays that way, Blu-Ray is officially the superior format. Not to mention, nearly ALL the CE companies are backing BluRay (panasonic, sony, pioneer, philips, the list goes on) while Microsoft and Toshiba are the only ones really touting HD-DVD. Blu-Ray is more expenisve, but they currently have the edge.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Apparently HD-DVD doesn't support 1080p, Blu-Ray does. if it stays that way, Blu-Ray is officially the superior format. Not to mention, nearly ALL the CE companies are backing BluRay (panasonic, sony, pioneer, philips, the list goes on) while Microsoft and Toshiba are the only ones really touting HD-DVD. Blu-Ray is more expenisve, but they currently have the edge.

You know Eric,
BluRay was superior on paper before we even saw a model. Personally hope BluRay wins. When it does, I will purchase a player regardless of price.

[HT BUFF]

I assume this basically means we would have to buy the new generation DVD player, new HD DVD discs and also new tv's to deliver that type of picture, everyone has 1080i or 720p currently and they would not be compatible??
Am I correct here?

[Smokey]

I assume this basically means we would have to buy the new generation DVD player, new HD DVD discs and also new tv's to deliver that type of picture, everyone has 1080i or 720p currently and they would not be compatible??

You are right on the first and second count, but on the third count if your HD TV (1080P, 1080i, 720P) have HDMI digital connection, then you are compatible and don't need new TV

[HT BUFF]

You are right on the first and second count, but on the third count if your HD TV (1080P, 1080i, 720P) have HDMI digital connection, then you are compatible and don't need new TV

Thanks for your input, any idea how this new HD DVD Player may differ from an upconversion dvd player such as my Denon 1910 or a Samsung 850 as they appear to perform the same function of showing the DVD @ 1080i?

[shokhead]

Well the next format is already being worked on so my friend says who works at Samsung,3D tv.
Really,i pretty happy with high quality DVD and will just stick with it for a few more years. I think i'll skip this next format and save some money

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thanks for your input, any idea how this new HD DVD Player may differ from an upconversion dvd player such as my Denon 1910 or a Samsung 850 as they appear to perform the same function of showing the DVD @ 1080i?

Not quite. Your upconverting DVD players are taking a 480P signal and upcoverting(scaling) to either 720P or 1080I. Its not true HD as you original source is 480P. HD DVD starts at 1080i so there is no need to upconvert anything. On my television I could do pixel for pixel with 1080i, no need for scaling of any kind.

[Groundbeef]

Apparently HD-DVD doesn't support 1080p, Blu-Ray does. if it stays that way, Blu-Ray is officially the superior format. Not to mention, nearly ALL the CE companies are backing BluRay (panasonic, sony, pioneer, philips, the list goes on) while Microsoft and Toshiba are the only ones really touting HD-DVD. Blu-Ray is more expenisve, but they currently have the edge.

The problem lies not with who is more technicaly superior, but how it is presented to the general public. The folks who read this board and other technical boards will fully understand the difference. Where it really comes into play is when Mr and Mrs Jones go into a Big Box retalier. After they plunk down 2-5K for a HDTV, they will be interested in a new DVD player. Ok, here are your choices...ANOTHER $1800 for this model, or this model for $499-799. Plus don't forget your monster cable that we get huge margin off. So if you get the lower priced model, you can spend more on these hugely overpriced cables so I get a better mark as a salesperson.

Just because you are better and more expensive doesn't mean in the eyes of the public you will win. Not everyone drives a Porche or Caddy. There are pleny of Hundayi drivers out there also who just want low price, quality be damned.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The problem lies not with who is more technicaly superior, but how it is presented to the general public. The folks who read this board and other technical boards will fully understand the difference. Where it really comes into play is when Mr and Mrs Jones go into a Big Box retalier. After they plunk down 2-5K for a HDTV, they will be interested in a new DVD player. Ok, here are your choices...ANOTHER $1800 for this model, or this model for $499-799. Plus don't forget your monster cable that we get huge margin off. So if you get the lower priced model, you can spend more on these hugely overpriced cables so I get a better mark as a salesperson.

Just because you are better and more expensive doesn't mean in the eyes of the public you will win. Not everyone drives a Porche or Caddy. There are pleny of Hundayi drivers out there also who just want low price, quality be damned.

Sorry Mr Beef, but joe six pack doesn't drive new formats out into the market. Spec concious and tech savvy early adopters do. Joe six pack thinks that DVD as it stands is just fine. Most don't even know what HD DVD or BluRay is. It is only when Joe six pack stumbles onto a forum like this, or visits an early adopter with a great system that they get into the equation. I was into my third DVD player before my best friend had his first. He was still satisfied with LD, a format I introduced him to some years earlier. Before LD he was relishing the VHS hifi format. The folks that just want low price and quality be damned, they will stay with SD DVD and completely avoid all of the upgrades cost, and hassles of putting it all together.

[Smokey]

Joe six pack thinks that DVD as it stands is just fine. Most don't even know what HD DVD or BluRay is. It is only when Joe six pack stumbles onto a forum like this, or visits an early adopter with a great system that they get into the equation.

Hey Sir TT

Your statment might have been true 5 or 10 years ago, but IMO that is not true anymore. With almost everybody having internet access, information about HD DVD players will eventually flood the internet and everybody will know about it (even the Joe six pack)

[Defshep]

Think I'll wait for the $100 model...

[kexodusc]

Sorry Mr Beef, but joe six pack doesn't drive new formats out into the market. Spec concious and tech savvy early adopters do. Joe six pack thinks that DVD as it stands is just fine. Most don't even know what HD DVD or BluRay is. It is only when Joe six pack stumbles onto a forum like this, or visits an early adopter with a great system that they get into the equation. I was into my third DVD player before my best friend had his first. He was still satisfied with LD, a format I introduced him to some years earlier. Before LD he was relishing the VHS hifi format. The folks that just want low price and quality be damned, they will stay with SD DVD and completely avoid all of the upgrades cost, and hassles of putting it all together.

I think this paragraph nicely sums up why BluRay is in serious trouble unless manufacturers rethink the pricing strategy, and FAST. For the 99% of HDTV's out there that don't support 1080i anyway, there's no real value added in a BluRay disc (storage isn't really an issue, as the 2-disc DVD release has proven).

I'm all for superior technical merits, but if I have to fork out $1800 for a player, AND at least $1000 (probably far more for a 1080p capable unit) to replace my 10 month old HDTV, BluRay can kiss my ass.

That same financial investment into HD-DVD would get me a player and a 80-110 HD-DVD's. Let's say BluRay miraculously produces cost savings of 50% per year, and HD-DVD only 25% a year. In 2 years there'll still be HD-DVD units 50% cheaper than BluRay, and 90% of the population will still have 1080i limited HDTV sets. Again, absolute best case scenario here, I get a player and 8-10 HD-DVD's for the price of a BluRay player with no discs, and my TV set neutralizes any technical advantages.

I'm afraid we're pushing BluRay out to the 4 or 5 year time horizon before the masses can even think seriously about it.

My bold prediction, neither of these formats catch on at all! HD on-demand by service providers, whether cable or satellite will probably satisfy most. 4 years from now we'll all be talking about a new format that kicks BluRay's ass to next Tuesday, and hopefully by then the industry has lost enough money and enough greedy execs at Sony and Toshiba have been replaced so we can have ONE format at an affordable price.

[Groundbeef]

Sorry Mr Beef, but joe six pack doesn't drive new formats out into the market. Spec concious and tech savvy early adopters do. The folks that just want low price and quality be damned, they will stay with SD DVD and completely avoid all of the upgrades cost, and hassles of putting it all together.

You are correct sir, in that Early Adopters as the marketing folks call them drive new technology. However, it is the masses that make it happen. Remeber Satellite phones when they came out. Supposed to rule the world...everyone can make calls anywhere. Yadayada. Well guess what, the early adoptors snapped them up. But Joe six pack said "WHAT Cell service for HOW MUCH A MONTH? The phone costs HOW MUCH? It was only AFTER the service went bankrupt and was snapped up for pennies on the $, and prices dropped that it became even marginally accepted. Now most news organizations have them, but who do you know pops out the old sat phone to make a local call? No one I surmise.

Early adoptors are important, but by no means do they settle the final lineup for a companies product offering.

[shokhead]

Hey Sir TT

Your statment might have been true 5 or 10 years ago, but IMO that is not true anymore. With almost everybody having internet access, information about HD DVD players will eventually flood the internet and everybody will know about it (even the Joe six pack)

Nope. Mr. Avg Joe Blow wants a basic DVD player hooked up to his big screen,thats it. Mr. avg doesnt listen to samples on Amazon,they walk into BB and pick up 4,5,6 cd's and a couple of DVD's at a time and buys them not knowing if they will like those cd's and some of them buying just for one song but they like that artist. If mr. avg has a DVD that has DTS and his player doesnt auto to it,he'll never here DTS.

[noddin0ff]

Mr Ave Joe is pretty interesting. I thought Mr AJ gets cable, watches PPV, uses Tivo, rents an occasional vidio, and lets their kids download music. If true, disks of any format are in trouble. I almost never see older people (the ones with the incomes) buying movies, its kids. I don't see kids plunking down $1800.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey Sir TT

Your statment might have been true 5 or 10 years ago, but IMO that is not true anymore. With almost everybody having internet access, information about HD DVD players will eventually flood the internet and everybody will know about it (even the Joe six pack)

Just to test your theory I went around my station this morning and asked about 10 engineers if they have heard of HD DVD or BluRay(keep in mind these are broadcast engineers) Only 3 out of the 10 had really heard about it. Out of my circle of friends, no one has heard about it except my best friend. He heard it from me. Just because everyone has internet access doesn't really mean they'll seek out this information. Most folks don't and won't care about either format until someone like me demo's it for them.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think this paragraph nicely sums up why BluRay is in serious trouble unless manufacturers rethink the pricing strategy, and FAST. For the 99% of HDTV's out there that don't support 1080i anyway, there's no real value added in a BluRay disc (storage isn't really an issue, as the 2-disc DVD release has proven).

If you don't have 1080i or 1080P resolution on your television, then neither will do you any good based on your logic. Storage seems to be a BIG issue to the studio's. One of the reasons that all of the studio's jumped the fence for BluRay, was the thought of having a potential 200GB for uncompressed video, audio, interactive features in realtime, motion control, and other things. HD DVD would have to change their pit depth in order to do anything more than 50GB. The studio's seemed to think that it made HD DVD seemingly outmoded in a short period of time.

I'm all for superior technical merits, but if I have to fork out $1800 for a player, AND at least $1000 (probably far more for a 1080p capable unit) to replace my 10 month old HDTV, BluRay can kiss my ass.

It might be just a little bit short sighted to assume that all players will be $1800. That is the price of Pioneers first offering. Has every forgotton that the first DVD players were over a $1000 bucks? You can best bet that other manufacturers will be much more agressive about their pricing.

That same financial investment into HD-DVD would get me a player and a 80-110 HD-DVD's. Let's say BluRay miraculously produces cost savings of 50% per year, and HD-DVD only 25% a year. In 2 years there'll still be HD-DVD units 50% cheaper than BluRay, and 90% of the population will still have 1080i limited HDTV sets. Again, absolute best case scenario here, I get a player and 8-10 HD-DVD's for the price of a BluRay player with no discs, and my TV set neutralizes any technical advantages.

This is pure speculation. You are using the price of a single player to define a scenario for a whole format with a bunch of manufacturers who haven't even introduced a player yet. If you have a 720P panel, then both technologies neutralize any technical advantage to you. If you have a 1080i capable television, it is not likely you'll even see a difference between Bluray's 1080P input to your 1080i output.

I'm afraid we're pushing BluRay out to the 4 or 5 year time horizon before the masses can even think seriously about it.

My bold prediction, neither of these formats catch on at all! HD on-demand by service providers, whether cable or satellite will probably satisfy most. 4 years from now we'll all be talking about a new format that kicks BluRay's ass to next Tuesday, and hopefully by then the industry has lost enough money and enough greedy execs at Sony and Toshiba have been replaced so we can have ONE format at an affordable price.

What you are not considering are universal players, the price of the PS3. My question to you is HD on demand outputting uncompressed signals? [probably not) Are they going to offering both high defination audio formats(probably not). Will it offer interactive features or extra value content? (probably not). For those looking for the ulitimate in audio and video quality will not look to HD on demand. While I completely understand your perspective, there are others who look at HD DVD and see obsolesence quickly. The studio's seemed to have taken that position. I am personally not going to chose a format who total growth(disc capacity) isn't even as good as the second tier of other format, and not even close to its capacity. This is just my opinion my good man!

[Smokey]

Just to test your theory I went around my station this morning and asked about 10 engineers if they have heard of HD DVD or BluRay(keep in mind these are broadcast engineers) Only 3 out of the 10 had really heard about it.

I thought broadcast engineers suppose to be on the cutting edge of new audio and video technology and know all about them. Boy, are you hanging around the wrong crowd .


But as you mentioned in your other post, the price line will be the initial factor (even to Joe Six Pack) whether new format will make it in the mass market or not

[kexodusc]

If you don't have 1080i or 1080P resolution on your television, then neither will do you any good based on your logic. Storage seems to be a BIG issue to the studio's. One of the reasons that all of the studio's jumped the fence for BluRay, was the thought of having a potential 200GB for uncompressed video, audio, interactive features in realtime, motion control, and other things. HD DVD would have to change their pit depth in order to do anything more than 50GB. The studio's seemed to think that it made HD DVD seemingly outmoded in a short period of time.




It might be just a little bit short sighted to assume that all players will be $1800. That is the price of Pioneers first offering. Has every forgotton that the first DVD players were over a $1000 bucks? You can best bet that other manufacturers will be much more agressive about their pricing.



This is pure speculation. You are using the price of a single player to define a scenario for a whole format with a bunch of manufacturers who haven't even introduced a player yet. If you have a 720P panel, then both technologies neutralize any technical advantage to you. If you have a 1080i capable television, it is not likely you'll even see a difference between Bluray's 1080P input to your 1080i output.




What you are not considering are universal players, the price of the PS3. My question to you is HD on demand outputting uncompressed signals? [probably not) Are they going to offering both high defination audio formats(probably not). Will it offer interactive features or extra value content? (probably not). For those looking for the ulitimate in audio and video quality will not look to HD on demand. While I completely understand your perspective, there are others who look at HD DVD and see obsolesence quickly. The studio's seemed to have taken that position. I am personally not going to chose a format who total growth(disc capacity) isn't even as good as the second tier of other format, and not even close to its capacity. This is just my opinion my good man!

All valid points Sir T. I think my initial points do retain some merit though - why spend more for a format if I can't make use of all of it's advantages. Maybe I'm missing something (I probably am) but last I heard, the storage issue was moot, even if 1080p and the highest rez 7.1 soundtracks were used. Worst case scenario, all extras would fit on a 2nd disc and according to the HD-DVD camp and still be cheaper or as expensive as a BluRay disc.

Don't get me wrong, I have no loyalties to Microsoft or Toshiba, but based on all the rhetoric we've heard from both camps, and the initial offerings and projected costs of a few manufacturers, the best case scenario IMO is that neither of these goofs win and a better, single format emerges a few years down the road.

Well, let me rephrase that, best case scenario is that BluRay is not only technically superior, but much more so, and the price is comparable. This leads to a fast emergence as the dominant format.

But, if it continues to demand a premium (and based on the BluRay camp's own admissions, they expect it to carry at least a small price premium for the foreseeable future), and 720p or 1080i continue to be the highest resolution the vast majority of households will use (I believe audio is a distant secondary concern to most, or DTS would have long since emerged as the dominant audio format) offered by both formats, I still don't see any incentive for BluRay. I really hope I'm wrong.

But I dont' think HD-DVD is going to get far either. BluRay will hold enough people back.

Oh, and last I checked, the most of the Studio's are hedging their bets by playing a wait and see game or preparing to release titles in both formats. That's not exactly the kind of overwhelming commitment BluRay or HD-DVD are after, I don't think.

[IndoSlim]

What do you guys think about the Holographic Memory Discs that are supposed to be able to hold 300GB and use so-called Tapestry holographic memory technology to store data by interference of light?

"Unlike other technologies (such as DVD/Bluray/DVD-HD) that record one data bit at a time, holography allows a million bits of data to be written and read in parallel with a single flash of light. This enables transfer rates significantly higher than current optical storage device.This enables transfer rates significantly higher than current optical storage device."

http://www.newscientist.com/article....ine-news_rss20

c/o 300GB disc set to challenge Blu-ray and HD-DVD.