More PS3 News...Not good of course

[Groundbeef]

For those who are going to get the PS3 for Blu-Ray, don't forget to get the cable. Thats right folks; after you fork out your $599 for the unit (the only unit that has HDMI outs) you will then need to fork out more cash for the HDMI cable. Isn't that a nice touch. At least with the premium 360 you got the nice cables included.

Oh well....

heres the link
http://www.ps3news.ca/09042006/20/hd...3_not_included

[paul_pci]

Why don't you drop the attitude.

[Groundbeef]

Ok, your right. I'll put a happy spin on it for you. Sony has annouced to the joy and elation to gamers everywhere that the next generation game console PS3 will not be shipping with the HDMI cable. This is done as a cost cutting measure so that players can now more easily afford to purchase the cable aftermarket. Sony has also quietly mentioned that gamers actually will NOT need the HDMI cable because games will not be played at 1080p resolution.

Many gamers in the community are overjoyed at this announcement, and message boards are flooded with complimentary statements aimed at Sony. Coupled with the annoucment that shipements of consoles will be 50% of previously stated levels it is easy to see why.

Wow, I feel so much better. And your right of course. I should be more upbeat.
Thanks for the tip... got anymore?

[JeffKnob]

For those who are going to get the PS3 for Blu-Ray, don't forget to get the cable. Thats right folks; after you fork out your $599 for the unit (the only unit that has HDMI outs) you will then need to fork out more cash for the HDMI cable. Isn't that a nice touch. At least with the premium 360 you got the nice cables included.

Oh well....

heres the link
http://www.ps3news.ca/09042006/20/hd...3_not_included

What's the big deal? You can get an HDMI cable from monoprice.com for less than $10 shipped.

[Groundbeef]

Frankly, you are correct. It really isn't that big of a deal. However, many systems are going to be bought at Big Box Retailers (IE BB, CC, etc). Don't think for a second that the salesperson isn't going to put on the full court press for the Monster HDMI for $60 "Look folks, its got gold ends.....and magic copper wires that line up the signal, just like God intended!"

This is where Sony I think dropped the ball. As you stated, anyone with a little careful shopping can get a cable for $10.00. So why put out the perception that you are nickle and diming your customer for $10.00. Just include a base cable and call it a day.

Its just a perception issue. It would be like buying a car, and having to pay the dealership to inflate the tires. "Yeah, the H2 hummer comes with 22" rims and nice wheels. And we only charge $10.00 to fill the included tires with air."

Sounds idiotic? So does charging $599 and not including a $10.00 cable.

[JeffKnob]

Frankly, you are correct. It really isn't that big of a deal. However, many systems are going to be bought at Big Box Retailers (IE BB, CC, etc). Don't think for a second that the salesperson isn't going to put on the full court press for the Monster HDMI for $60 "Look folks, its got gold ends.....and magic copper wires that line up the signal, just like God intended!"

This is where Sony I think dropped the ball. As you stated, anyone with a little careful shopping can get a cable for $10.00. So why put out the perception that you are nickle and diming your customer for $10.00. Just include a base cable and call it a day.

Its just a perception issue. It would be like buying a car, and having to pay the dealership to inflate the tires. "Yeah, the H2 hummer comes with 22" rims and nice wheels. And we only charge $10.00 to fill the included tires with air."

Sounds idiotic? So does charging $599 and not including a $10.00 cable.

I see your point. I think what is more idiotic is that they are charging $599 in the first place. I am sure it will be a nice system but that is a lot to spend when the competition is cheaper and just as good, if not better.

[Groundbeef]

Wait folks, the hits just keep coming.

As if Sony hasn't stepped on their own dork enough lately, word on the street is that the $600 or $500 not only DONT come with the HDMI cable, they DONT come with composite cables either.

YES, you get the crappy component cables....you know RED, WHITE, YELLOW. Whoooo talk about HD quaility there. I'm suprised they didn't throw in a RF switch for those still running on old TV's.

At least the $400 360 came with composite cables standard.

Yea SONY, you know how to treat your customers right....

[bobsticks]

uumm, hey GB, I think you got it reversed, eh? Composite cables are the crappy red, white, and yellow ones. Component cables are the red, blue, and green video chords...

[audio_dude]

oh, yet another hit against sony, they have stated that the games will be $80-$90, some even hitting $100, and even with all the cost cutting they're still losing money, so get ready to spend $1500 on a PS3 with an extra controller, some games and an HDMI cable...

[Woochifer]

Wait folks, the hits just keep coming.

As if Sony hasn't stepped on their own dork enough lately, word on the street is that the $600 or $500 not only DONT come with the HDMI cable, they DONT come with composite cables either.

YES, you get the crappy component cables....you know RED, WHITE, YELLOW. Whoooo talk about HD quaility there. I'm suprised they didn't throw in a RF switch for those still running on old TV's.

At least the $400 360 came with composite cables standard.

Yea SONY, you know how to treat your customers right....

"word on the street" = unsubstantiated rumor/inneuendo

So, if Microsoft treats its customers so well, why didn't they include a Toslink cable for the audio signals? Yeah, we're really talking audio quality here with some plastic two-channel analog OEM cable!

Since an HDMI connection can output video and audio signals onto one cable rather than separate video and audio cables, the end cost would be pretty much the same.

[Groundbeef]

uumm, hey GB, I think you got it reversed, eh? Composite cables are the crappy red, white, and yellow ones. Component cables are the red, blue, and green video chords...

Your right of course. I thought about it as I was typing, and got them reversed. Sorry bout that. It does seem funny though that they are only giving you the crappy cables.

[bobsticks]

I do agree with the point at which you were aiming. Curious, to say the least, that a product portraying itself as the new purveyor of the most modern graphics capability would chose to only include the lowest possible method of transfer.

[Groundbeef]

"word on the street" = unsubstantiated rumor/inneuendo

So, if Microsoft treats its customers so well, why didn't they include a Toslink cable for the audio signals? Yeah, we're really talking audio quality here with some plastic two-channel analog OEM cable!

Since an HDMI connection can output video and audio signals onto one cable rather than separate video and audio cables, the end cost would be pretty much the same.

http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/specs.html

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157113.html

Both are reputable sources. In fact, if you look at the SONY page at the ** on the bottom, it says that it doesn't come with ANY HD cables, as the can be purchased separately.

As far as MS is concerned when you purchase the $400 model the component cables ARE included. MS matches the penny pinching Sony by not including the toslink cable. But that is a moot point as both systems support, but do not include cables for digital audio.

So I guess the score is MS 1, Sony 0, for high quality video cables without needing additional purchase.

[Woochifer]

http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/specs.html

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157113.html

Both are reputable sources. In fact, if you look at the SONY page at the ** on the bottom, it says that it doesn't come with ANY HD cables, as the can be purchased separately.

As far as MS is concerned when you purchase the $400 model the component cables ARE included. MS matches the penny pinching Sony by not including the toslink cable. But that is a moot point as both systems support, but do not include cables for digital audio.

So I guess the score is MS 1, Sony 0, for high quality video cables without needing additional purchase.

Right, and if you want high quality video AND audio, BOTH systems require additional purchase. Difference being that HDMI 1.3 also supports 7.1 Dolby Digital Plus, 1080p, 48-bit color, and the lossless Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and 5.1 PCM audio formats. The Toslink connection limits you to the same 2.0 PCM, and compressed DD and DTS audio formats that come with DVD.

[Groundbeef]

Right, and if you want high quality video AND audio, BOTH systems require additional purchase. Difference being that HDMI 1.3 also supports 7.1 Dolby Digital Plus, 1080p, 48-bit color, and the lossless Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and 5.1 PCM audio formats. The Toslink connection limits you to the same 2.0 PCM, and compressed DD and DTS audio formats that come with DVD.

Blah, Blah, Blah.....

The fact of the matter is, out of the box, the MS 360 $400 unit IS capable of HD without any additional purchase. The PS3 is not. End of story.

You can pine all you want about it, but the PS3 costs $200 more and comes with the crappiest connections available. Thats the point. Spend big money for a machine that SONY cant stop talking about the HD angle, and they don't even give you the equipment to enjoy it.

Thats why this discussion was started in the first place. Sony is nickle and diming the customer. Console is much more expensive, games are going to be more expensive, online capabilities appear to be hobbled because they don't have standards for developers....the list goes on.

Is the 360 perfect? No. Its rollout was plauged with problems also. But now its Sony stepping on its own dork, not MS.

[Woochifer]

Blah, Blah, Blah.....

The fact of the matter is, out of the box, the MS 360 $400 unit IS capable of HD without any additional purchase. The PS3 is not. End of story.

You can pine all you want about it, but the PS3 costs $200 more and comes with the crappiest connections available. Thats the point. Spend big money for a machine that SONY cant stop talking about the HD angle, and they don't even give you the equipment to enjoy it.

Thats why this discussion was started in the first place. Sony is nickle and diming the customer. Console is much more expensive, games are going to be more expensive, online capabilities appear to be hobbled because they don't have standards for developers....the list goes on.

Is the 360 perfect? No. Its rollout was plauged with problems also. But now its Sony stepping on its own dork, not MS.

Talk about nickeling and diming. So, I guess that Microsoft is doing its customers a great favor by not providing the secure digital connections that just about every other HD device out there now provides. So they provide the component video cables -- wow, X360 buyers have hit the jackpot! Since the component video cables are such an essential accessory otherwise unaffordable to the buying public without Microsoft's generosity, I guess it doesn't matter that the 360 can't play HD-DVD without an add-on, can't do 1080p without a software update and a VGA connection, and won't support the next gen digital audio formats.

Out of the box, the $500 PS3 will be current with the HDMI 1.3 spec. But, that's no big deal, right? Who needs the convenience of one cable, when THREE sets of cables (component vid, VGA, and Toslink) can do the same job! It won't matter at all that by the end of next year most new midlevel home theater components will likely support the HDMI 1.3 spec, and by the year after most products down to the HTIB systems will be current with the HDMI spec. Indeed, Sony's ripping off its customers by not including a $10 cable in the box, while Microsoft's providing great value by excluding HDMI connections and HD-DVD support out of the box.

[Groundbeef]

Talk about nickeling and diming. So, I guess that Microsoft is doing its customers a great favor by not providing the secure digital connections that just about every other HD device out there now provides. So they provide the component video cables -- wow, X360 buyers have hit the jackpot! Since the component video cables are such an essential accessory otherwise unaffordable to the buying public without Microsoft's generosity, I guess it doesn't matter that the 360 can't play HD-DVD without an add-on, can't do 1080p without a software update and a VGA connection, and won't support the next gen digital audio formats.

Out of the box, the $500 PS3 will be current with the HDMI 1.3 spec. But, that's no big deal, right? Who needs the convenience of one cable, when THREE sets of cables (component vid, VGA, and Toslink) can do the same job! It won't matter at all that by the end of next year most new midlevel home theater components will likely support the HDMI 1.3 spec, and by the year after most products down to the HTIB systems will be current with the HDMI spec. Indeed, Sony's ripping off its customers by not including a $10 cable in the box, while Microsoft's providing great value by excluding HDMI connections and HD-DVD support out of the box.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Video...k/All/Ntt/hdmi cable/rpem/ccd/categorylist.do

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Xbox-...k/All/Ntt/xbox 360 component/rpem/ccd/categorylist.do

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Searc...rchSection=All

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....All+Categories

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/searc...+cable&ic=20_0

The above links help to clarify the issue that you seem to be missing. The 360 doesn't have HDMI. This fact is indisputable, and undeniable. However FOR GAMING the 360 comes out of the box ($400 model) ready to do HD 720p. It also does 1080i. For GAMERS this is more than adequate.

The PS3 comes with all sorts of media blitz, and indicates that it too is "HD". Yes it is capable, but IS NOT READY. Most consumers will be making their purchase at a big box retalier and will be informed that they need to purchase additional cables to make their system "HD". This is on top of the $600 they just shelled out for the "HD" next generation console. As you can see most of the big box retailers are selling HDMI cables for WELL over the $10 you can get them for online. Many will opt for purchasing cables w/system. This is due to salesman pressure, or ignorace to other alternatives. For those consumers w/out HDMI connections on their TV, they may need a DVI/HDMI converter for an additional fee.

Without a doubt SONY will offer cables of their own branding, I would assume pricing will be similar to that of the XBOX brand cables (about $40), unsure of HDMI cable cost for SONY.

As far as MS goes, the HD-DVD is an add-on. If I don't want it, I don't buy it. Yes HDMI would be nice...of course. However, it is not necessary to experience HD gaming. You can keep beating your horse Woochier, but its already dead. Sony has stumbled on this one. They may have included the next gen DVD player, but didn't include anything to show it off. And for those customers who balk at buying more cables, they may be even more turned off by the picture that the analog cables provide.

As far as a "software" update for MS, that is a no brainer. If your 360 is capable of getting online, it will do the d/l all by itself. Usually there is a prompt to ask if you want to d/l the update. You hit "yes" and it proceeds. You can play games and everything while it handles the job in the background. I am not sure why this is even an issue. If nothing else, XBOX Live is a showcase on how to handle online gaming. Even rabid sony fanboys appreciate how easy, simple and intagrated the system is for games and d/l. If for some reason you cannont get your 360 online, MS makes a file you can d/l to your personal computer, save it on cd/rom and put it in the console. It will do the update that way.

If anything, this has stolen some of Sony's fire around the 1080p issue. From online readings it appears that only about 17% of the population have flat panel TV's. While 48% report that the next purchase of a TV will be a Flat Panel. Of the 17% it is unclear how many currently support 1080p. My guess would be less than 5%.

Component connections will be adequate for the remainder of the population. You could always hire out the "Geek Squad" to show you how to hook up audio connections if its a real problem. Judging from your posts it apppears that you are having trouble, and HDMI will be your savior as it only requires you to figure out how to put 1 cord in the console and 1 in your receiver. For the rest of us tech savy youngsters, I am willing to bet we can handle the extra cable.

Incidently it has come out that the "new" sony controller has no way for the consumer to access the battery. This is the "Apple Ipod" style of manufacturing. So when the rechargable battery goes kaput, so does your controller!!! What a feature. At least with the 360 if the rechargable battery dies, you only have to shell out $10, vs $50 for a whole new controller. YEAAAA Sony.......another brain trust feature there!

[Woochifer]

As far as MS goes, the HD-DVD is an add-on. If I don't want it, I don't buy it. Yes HDMI would be nice...of course. However, it is not necessary to experience HD gaming. You can keep beating your horse Woochier, but its already dead. Sony has stumbled on this one. They may have included the next gen DVD player, but didn't include anything to show it off. And for those customers who balk at buying more cables, they may be even more turned off by the picture that the analog cables provide.

Talk about beating a dead horse. You're harping on something that can easily be fixed by simply buying a cable! But, exercising any opportunity to bash the PS3, no matter how trivial or speculative the issue might be, and gloss over/excuse issues with the Xbox 360 seems to be your sole agenda on this board.

The Xbox 360's excusion of HDMI cannot be easily fixed, which means that features like 1080p and high res audio cannot be implemented by simply plugging in a cable.

And remember which board you're on? This is AUDIOreview.com, so people on this board who get a gaming console are going to likely want the multichannel audio as well. Again, can't do that out of the box with either console. Difference though is that the PS3's HDMI 1.3 connection will support the higher resolution 5.1/7.1 formats, while the Xbox 360's Toslink connection leaves you stuck with the same lossy formats that came with the DVD.

If anything, this has stolen some of Sony's fire around the 1080p issue. From online readings it appears that only about 17% of the population have flat panel TV's. While 48% report that the next purchase of a TV will be a Flat Panel. Of the 17% it is unclear how many currently support 1080p. My guess would be less than 5%.

Those are current numbers. These consoles will likely have a shelf-life of about five years, how much do you think that market picture will change in the meantime? The first HDMI components appeared less than three years ago, and now it's pretty much a required feature for new HD devices.

Component connections will be adequate for the remainder of the population. You could always hire out the "Geek Squad" to show you how to hook up audio connections if its a real problem. Judging from your posts it apppears that you are having trouble, and HDMI will be your savior as it only requires you to figure out how to put 1 cord in the console and 1 in your receiver. For the rest of us tech savy youngsters, I am willing to bet we can handle the extra cable.

And you'll pay for that extra cable as well. So much for the Xbox 360 being "ready" out of the box.

Your inneuendo that HDMI is for people who don't know how to connect extra audio cables to their system is pretty laughable considering the audience that you're speaking to on this board. Maybe that kind of half-baked presumption might fly on a gaming board, but definitely not here. Oh well, nice try anyway.

It's not a matter of figuring out how to plug in an extra audio cable If anything, you seem to lack the comprehesion to figure out that there's a whole new generation of lossless (i.e., noncompressed) multichannel audio formats coming onto the market and the only way to digitally connect them into a home theater system will be via HDMI. Even after paying for the extra Toslink cable, your audio options through that connection will remain DD, DTS, and 2.0 PCM.

The utility of needing only one cable connection for both audio and video signals is not lost on the tech savvy regulars on this board. Most of us with multiple devices hooked up to our home theater systems would welcome the opportunity to reduce the cable clutter with our systems.

Incidently it has come out that the "new" sony controller has no way for the consumer to access the battery. This is the "Apple Ipod" style of manufacturing. So when the rechargable battery goes kaput, so does your controller!!! What a feature. At least with the 360 if the rechargable battery dies, you only have to shell out $10, vs $50 for a whole new controller. YEAAAA Sony.......another brain trust feature there!

More presumption and hyperbole here. If it follows the iPod model, you'll see plenty of battery replacement options come onto the market, including shops that can replace the battery on the spot. I don't know anyone who's tossed away their iPod because of a "dead" battery (rechargeable batteries usually don't go "kaput," rather their charging capacity gets reduced over time), and I doubt that the landfills will start piling up with PS3 controllers either.

[Groundbeef]

Talk about beating a dead horse. You're harping on something that can easily be fixed by simply buying a cable!

Or by Sony including a "$10" cable in the box to save their customers the hassle. I suppose you prefer to buy all your toilet paper unrolled to save the nickel it costs Charmin to roll it for you? Please, this topic was about how boneheaded it was to not include a HD capable cable in a HD machine. 360 does it PS3 doesn't.

The Xbox 360's excusion of HDMI cannot be easily fixed, which means that features like 1080p and high res audio cannot be implemented by simply plugging in a cable.

Yeah, and remeber the 360 can't do 1080p....oh wait with a software update it can. And MS HAS NOT ruled out HDMI on the standalone HD-DVD drive. It will not be on initial units, but it has not been ruled out on later rollouts.

And remember which board you're on? This is AUDIOreview.com, so people on this board who get a gaming console are going to likely want the multichannel audio as well. Again, can't do that out of the box with either console. Difference though is that the PS3's HDMI 1.3 connection will support the higher resolution 5.1/7.1 formats, while the Xbox 360's Toslink connection leaves you stuck with the same lossy formats that came with the DVD.

Oh yeah, thanks I forgot where I was....happens all the time. You are assuming that EVERY person that purchases this machine is getting it for the Blu-Ray, and has HDMI. I would suggest that a SMALL portion of purchasers will be able to take advantage of the format in the beginning. Don't forget to buy the cable though...remember it doesn't come with the system.

Those are current numbers. These consoles will likely have a shelf-life of about five years, how much do you think that market picture will change in the meantime? The first HDMI components appeared less than three years ago, and now it's pretty much a required feature for new HD devices.

And you'll pay for that extra cable as well. So much for the Xbox 360 being "ready" out of the box.

Your inneuendo that HDMI is for people who don't know how to connect extra audio cables to their system is pretty laughable considering the audience that you're speaking to on this board. Maybe that kind of half-baked presumption might fly on a gaming board, but definitely not here. Oh well, nice try anyway.

Ummmm that was sarcasm. I'll try to tone it down for you a bit. I thought you older folk got "dry" humor a bit more. I fully realize that it is for cutting down on cables, better sound quailty, etc. But again the market ISN"T realized yet. Many more will be using the analog cables for sound now, and for some time into the future.

Again, the 360 IS ready out of the box. It may not meet your requirments, but it has met almost 6 million others.

And "shelf" life as you put it is going to be closer to 6-8 years. With Sony cutting cost of machine in Japan alone, that is expected to keep them in the red for an additional 2 years.

More presumption and hyperbole here. If it follows the iPod model, you'll see plenty of battery replacement options come onto the market, including shops that can replace the battery on the spot. I don't know anyone who's tossed away their iPod because of a "dead" battery (rechargeable batteries usually don't go "kaput," rather their charging capacity gets reduced over time), and I doubt that the landfills will start piling up with PS3 controllers either.

I am not suggesting that EVERY time the battery dies, you have to get a new controller. I am still looking for the link where I read the article. The battery is inaccesable, and cannot be swapped out by a consumer. Do you want to pay someone $40 to replace your $10 battery? No, I thought not.

[Woochifer]

Or by Sony including a "$10" cable in the box to save their customers the hassle. I suppose you prefer to buy all your toilet paper unrolled to save the nickel it costs Charmin to roll it for you? Please, this topic was about how boneheaded it was to not include a HD capable cable in a HD machine. 360 does it PS3 doesn't.

And it's amazing how much mileage you're trying to milk out of a topic as trivial as this one is.

Yeah, and remeber the 360 can't do 1080p....oh wait with a software update it can. And MS HAS NOT ruled out HDMI on the standalone HD-DVD drive. It will not be on initial units, but it has not been ruled out on later rollouts.

"has not ruled out HDMI"

"standalone HD-DVD drive"

"with a software update it can"

Like I mentioned earlier, a whole lotta speculation, and workarounds and hoops for consumers to jump through, when including the HDMI 1.3 spec with the console in the first place would have solved everything. So, I guess that Microsoft is so concerned about their customers that they will include the VGA and Toslink cables? Yuh, right!

Oh yeah, thanks I forgot where I was....happens all the time. You are assuming that EVERY person that purchases this machine is getting it for the Blu-Ray, and has HDMI. I would suggest that a SMALL portion of purchasers will be able to take advantage of the format in the beginning. Don't forget to buy the cable though...remember it doesn't come with the system.

On this board at least, you can bet that just about every PS3 buyer with a HDTV will make use of the Blu-ray capability, just as a lot of the early PS2 buyers on this board were using their consoles as their primary DVD player. By this time next year, you'll see a flood of HDMI 1.3 components coming onto the market. The DSP chips supporting the HDMI 1.3 spec and the next gen audio formats are already in production, and the receivers, HDTVs, set-top boxes, and processors built around the spec are due out by the end of the year. You seem fine with the Xbox 360 not going with the most current connection standards, yet you'll go on rant after rant just because the PS3 does not include a cable. Quite a spin job yer weaving here!

Ummmm that was sarcasm. I'll try to tone it down for you a bit. I thought you older folk got "dry" humor a bit more. I fully realize that it is for cutting down on cables, better sound quailty, etc. But again the market ISN"T realized yet. Many more will be using the analog cables for sound now, and for some time into the future.

And are we talking about the chicken or the egg? The simple fact is that manufacturers have been on board with the HDMI specs since the first set was laid out in 2003. The latest 1.3 spec supports the next gen audio formats, and pretty much the entire industry will be on board within probably two years, which is well within the shelflife of these new consoles. It's not about assuming that current market conditions will remain the same for the next five to eight years, it's about being ready for changes to the market that pretty much everyone knows are coming. If the industry were to follow your logic, the DVD format would have never included 5.1 audio since at the time of introduction very few Dolby Digital decoders were out there, and DTS would have never gotten off the ground. Nowadays you can hardly find a receiver without 5.1 decoding and DTS support.

Again, the 360 IS ready out of the box. It may not meet your requirments, but it has met almost 6 million others.

Okay, so it's READY! How 'bout that 5.1 audio out of the box?

And "shelf" life as you put it is going to be closer to 6-8 years. With Sony cutting cost of machine in Japan alone, that is expected to keep them in the red for an additional 2 years.

And that would make the imperative for HDMI even more so, since the window for analog video will gradually close over the next few years, as the broadcast standards move over to DTV and more components require secure digital connections like HDMI.

I am not suggesting that EVERY time the battery dies, you have to get a new controller. I am still looking for the link where I read the article. The battery is inaccesable, and cannot be swapped out by a consumer. Do you want to pay someone $40 to replace your $10 battery? No, I thought not.

And where are you getting these cost figures for a product that's not even out yet? If you're using the iPod as an example, your latest bellyaching is yet another nonissue. iPod battery replacement kits (complete with tools) cost about $15, and shops in my area will perform the service while you wait for around $20. If a similar market need arises for the PS3 controller, then I would expect plenty of aftermarket options to emerge in response. And it's not like these batteries have to be replaced all the time to begin with.

[Groundbeef]

And it's amazing how much mileage you're trying to milk out of a topic as trivial as this one is.

Well, your still biting, and this is just one forum. Its not like the issue was brought up here first. Lots of sites are talking about it, and discussions are going on. As I said before, is this going to end hunger, or bring about world peace? No, of course not. But we aren't here to discuss the heavy issues of the day. We are here to debate the merit of neglecting to include a $10 cable in with a $600 machine.

"has not ruled out HDMI"

"standalone HD-DVD drive"

"with a software update it can"

Like I mentioned earlier, a whole lotta speculation, and workarounds and hoops for consumers to jump through, when including the HDMI 1.3 spec with the console in the first place would have solved everything. So, I guess that Microsoft is so concerned about their customers that they will include the VGA and Toslink cables? Yuh, right!

So any electronic item you ever buy you fully expect that it will never evolve? Please. MS didn't include HD-DVD in its rollout. OK, maybe they should have, maybe not. But it has been made clear that the next gen console will sell without having HDDVD on board. But as far as hoops go? D/L a software update? Is it really that hard? Have you ever used XBOX live for either the original or 360? D/L are easy. Stand alone product, for $170-199 a HD-DVD drive is a great price. I would buy it (and probably will) rather than shell out $500 for a stand-alone player that doesn't interact w/360. If the cables don't come with the system, I PROMISE to run a thread about it....honest...really I will...

On this board at least, you can bet that just about every PS3 buyer with a HDTV will make use of the Blu-ray capability, just as a lot of the early PS2 buyers on this board were using their consoles as their primary DVD player. By this time next year, you'll see a flood of HDMI 1.3 components coming onto the market. The DSP chips supporting the HDMI 1.3 spec and the next gen audio formats are already in production, and the receivers, HDTVs, set-top boxes, and processors built around the spec are due out by the end of the year. You seem fine with the Xbox 360 not going with the most current connection standards, yet you'll go on rant after rant just because the PS3 does not include a cable. Quite a spin job yer weaving here!

Well I hope you plan on spending the night on the sidewalk to get one. And if you do, congrats! As far as the 360 goes, I don't have a problem with the connection as is. My Plasma doesn't have HDMI, (DVI), and composite (componenet) works great for HD for me.
As far as rant goes, I am not sure about that. Seems you Sony Folk get all worked up about it when I mentioned it, so I'll keep running I guess.

And are we talking about the chicken or the egg? The simple fact is that manufacturers have been on board with the HDMI specs since the first set was laid out in 2003. The latest 1.3 spec supports the next gen audio formats, and pretty much the entire industry will be on board within probably two years, which is well within the shelflife of these new consoles. It's not about assuming that current market conditions will remain the same for the next five to eight years, it's about being ready for changes to the market that pretty much everyone knows are coming. If the industry were to follow your logic, the DVD format would have never included 5.1 audio since at the time of introduction very few Dolby Digital decoders were out there, and DTS would have never gotten off the ground. Nowadays you can hardly find a receiver without 5.1 decoding and DTS support.

I was only saying your expectation that the life span would be 5 years. I think it will be longer.

Okay, so it's READY! How 'bout that 5.1 audio out of the box?

Who is trying to put out a snow job here? The 360 is 5.1 capable, with a optical cable. But for the low price of just $400 how can you expect MS to include the cable. I mean really, Sony doesn't for $600....

http://www.xbox365.com/news.cgi?id=GGPuuHiruL11171443
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/675/675615p1.html

Lets not try to outright decieve people. The 360 is fully able to render 5.1 Dolby

And where are you getting these cost figures for a product that's not even out yet? If you're using the iPod as an example, your latest bellyaching is yet another nonissue. iPod battery replacement kits (complete with tools) cost about $15, and shops in my area will perform the service while you wait for around $20. If a similar market need arises for the PS3 controller, then I would expect plenty of aftermarket options to emerge in response. And it's not like these batteries have to be replaced all the time to begin with.

I am basing cost on 360 accessory costs. Additional controller $50, extra rechargable REMOVEABLE battery $10. I seriously doubt PS3 will price much higher.

Replacement battery for IPOD + Labor according to you is $35. Battery plus labor.
Incidently that voids your warrenty. Bad idea if you still have coverage left.

[Woochifer]

Well, your still biting, and this is just one forum. Its not like the issue was brought up here first. Lots of sites are talking about it, and discussions are going on. As I said before, is this going to end hunger, or bring about world peace? No, of course not. But we aren't here to discuss the heavy issues of the day. We are here to debate the merit of neglecting to include a $10 cable in with a $600 machine.

And what a waste of bandwidth that is if these discussions are going on elsewhere as well.

So any electronic item you ever buy you fully expect that it will never evolve? Please. MS didn't include HD-DVD in its rollout. OK, maybe they should have, maybe not. But it has been made clear that the next gen console will sell without having HDDVD on board. But as far as hoops go? D/L a software update? Is it really that hard? Have you ever used XBOX live for either the original or 360? D/L are easy. Stand alone product, for $170-199 a HD-DVD drive is a great price. I would buy it (and probably will) rather than shell out $500 for a stand-alone player that doesn't interact w/360. If the cables don't come with the system, I PROMISE to run a thread about it....honest...really I will...

I would expect a product to evolve, but I would also expect it to conform with existing standards. I don't know of any other HD devices introduced within the past year that did not include HDMI connections.

Well I hope you plan on spending the night on the sidewalk to get one. And if you do, congrats! As far as the 360 goes, I don't have a problem with the connection as is. My Plasma doesn't have HDMI, (DVI), and composite (componenet) works great for HD for me.

Keep in mind that I am one of those casual gamers that Lensman referred to. I don't plan to buy a PS3 until I upgrade the rest of my video chain to HD, and Sony gets any early production hiccups out of the system. And apparently, I'm not alone. As recently as June, the five-year old PS2 was still outselling the Xbox 360.

Your TV might not have digital video inputs, but good luck trying to find a new HDTV nowadays without HDMI. And if you have other HD devices hooked up to your TV, better hope they don't break down because there's no guarantee that hardware manufacturers will continue to support HD analog video in the future. And if the studios ever decide to activate the ICT with HD-DVDs, your analog component video resolution is limited to 540p, not much better than DVD.

As far as rant goes, I am not sure about that. Seems you Sony Folk get all worked up about it when I mentioned it, so I'll keep running I guess.

No one's getting worked up except you apparently. Your contributions on this board are mostly a stream of PS3-bashing and X360-fanboidom. Most of us are content to check into the PS3 after it comes out, and discuss the merits/dismerits at that point. You seem more obsessed with making federal cases out of every negative pre-release rumor that you read about the PS3. I mean, you were all too happy to gloat when the $500 PS3 was originally announced without HDMI, yet the silence from your end has been quite amusing in light of Sony's more recent decision to include HDMI 1.3 with the base model.

If you consider me one of them "Sony Folk" you obviously haven't been reading too many of my home theater posts.

Who is trying to put out a snow job here? The 360 is 5.1 capable, with a optical cable. But for the low price of just $400 how can you expect MS to include the cable. I mean really, Sony doesn't for $600....

http://www.xbox365.com/news.cgi?id=GGPuuHiruL11171443
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/675/675615p1.html

Lets not try to outright decieve people. The 360 is fully able to render 5.1 Dolby

I never said that the 360 was incapable of rendering 5.1 Dolby, only that it's not "READY" for 5.1 audio, given that your standard for something being "READY" means including the cable. Are you saying that the 360 will give you 5.1 audio without a Toslink cable?

Replacement battery for IPOD + Labor according to you is $35. Battery plus labor.
Incidently that voids your warrenty. Bad idea if you still have coverage left.

Nope, the total battery replacement cost of $20 INCLUDES the battery. It's no different than taking a watch to a jeweler to have the battery replaced -- takes only a few minutes and the cost is not much more than buying just the battery.

Within the one-year warranty period, I doubt that the a rechargeable battery will need to be replaced unless it's defective, in which case it would be done as a warranty service.

[Groundbeef]

And what a waste of bandwidth that is if these discussions are going on elsewhere as well.

Probably, but this is the "News & RUMOR" section. Not the News & Written in Stone section.

I would expect a product to evolve, but I would also expect it to conform with existing standards. I don't know of any other HD devices introduced within the past year that did not include HDMI connections.

The 360 didn't includ a HD-DVD drive (or blu-ray) for that matter. This ground has been covered by both you and I. HDMI IS NOT required for HD gaming. Should they have put HDMI onboard from the onset? Probably, as you point out, in the future things change, and it may be necessary. At that point however, the standalone player would probably be able to carry the signal out with HDMI.

Keep in mind that I am one of those casual gamers that Lensman referred to. I don't plan to buy a PS3 until I upgrade the rest of my video chain to HD, and Sony gets any early production hiccups out of the system. And apparently, I'm not alone. As recently as June, the five-year old PS2 was still outselling the Xbox 360.

Your TV might not have digital video inputs, but good luck trying to find a new HDTV nowadays without HDMI. And if you have other HD devices hooked up to your TV, better hope they don't break down because there's no guarantee that hardware manufacturers will continue to support HD analog video in the future. And if the studios ever decide to activate the ICT with HD-DVDs, your analog component video resolution is limited to 540p, not much better than DVD. .

We will cross that bridge when we need to. As pointed out the copy protection would not affect the base console as HDMI is not needed for HD gaming. Copy protection schemes wouldn't affect the game disk play.

No one's getting worked up except you apparently. Your contributions on this board are mostly a stream of PS3-bashing and X360-fanboidom. Most of us are content to check into the PS3 after it comes out, and discuss the merits/dismerits at that point. You seem more obsessed with making federal cases out of every negative pre-release rumor that you read about the PS3. I mean, you were all too happy to gloat when the $500 PS3 was originally announced without HDMI, yet the silence from your end has been quite amusing in light of Sony's more recent decision to include HDMI 1.3 with the base model.

If you consider me one of them "Sony Folk" you obviously haven't been reading too many of my home theater posts. .

Now your getting personal. I may post Pro MS on this board, but I make other contributions in other areas. If you don't like my posts, dont read them.

Nope, the total battery replacement cost of $20 INCLUDES the battery. It's no different than taking a watch to a jeweler to have the battery replaced -- takes only a few minutes and the cost is not much more than buying just the battery.

Within the one-year warranty period, I doubt that the a rechargeable battery will need to be replaced unless it's defective, in which case it would be done as a warranty service.

Ok, but I still think it is silly that you cannot replace the battery if needed.

[Woochifer]

Probably, but this is the "News & RUMOR" section. Not the News & Written in Stone section.

And it's still a whole lotta verbiage over nothing.

The 360 didn't includ a HD-DVD drive (or blu-ray) for that matter. This ground has been covered by both you and I. HDMI IS NOT required for HD gaming. Should they have put HDMI onboard from the onset? Probably, as you point out, in the future things change, and it may be necessary. At that point however, the standalone player would probably be able to carry the signal out with HDMI.

"probably" ... of course, that would mean that at that juncture you'd need to replace your X360.

Now your getting personal. I may post Pro MS on this board, but I make other contributions in other areas. If you don't like my posts, dont read them.

Boy, someone's getting testy here! I'm simply making note of your posting pattern, nothing personal about that. Are you denying that most of your threads are basically Xbox 360 lovefests and PS3 bashing? If you can't handle the fact that this isn't a gamer board and most of the regulars are not fanboys for either console, then maybe you should take your toys to a gamer or car audio board where that kind of playground mentality is more prevalent. Don't like the reaction your posts are getting? Then maybe you should rethink your approach.

Ok, but I still think it is silly that you cannot replace the battery if needed.

Like I said, it's not like a rechargeable battery's going to suddenly die on you and render the controller inoperable. If it's anything like the battery replacement options available for the iPod, this is a nonissue.

[Groundbeef]

And it's still a whole lotta verbiage over nothing.

And yet you still find time to comment....must be worth something.

"probably" ... of course, that would mean that at that juncture you'd need to replace your X360.

I don't think that I was clear enough. I meant the standalone HD-DVD drive, not the console. MS has indicated that there will not be a HD-DVD internal, but have NOT ruled out HDMI at a later date on the HD-DVD drive. No need to replace the console. Who knows, if Blu-Ray does become the defacto standard, MS STILL stands to win, as theoreticly they could add a Blu-Ray drive via USB as they are doint w/ HD-DVD. On the flip side, if HD-DVD becomes the standard, what will that do to Sony? This is a serious question and not a "Bash". If Blu-Ray does fail, that would be a serious blow to Sony.

Boy, someone's getting testy here! I'm simply making note of your posting pattern, nothing personal about that. Are you denying that most of your threads are basically Xbox 360 lovefests and PS3 bashing? If you can't handle the fact that this isn't a gamer board and most of the regulars are not fanboys for either console, then maybe you should take your toys to a gamer or car audio board where that kind of playground mentality is more prevalent. Don't like the reaction your posts are getting? Then maybe you should rethink your approach.

You are noting the posting pattern on this area of the board. Frankly I don't care what you think about me or my posts. However I do think that is funny that you invite me to leave when YOU become tired of the posts. I suppose you stick your nose into every Bose/Anti-Bose thread, every high $ speaker wire debate, every LP vs Digital music debate, and any other debate that people get worked up about around here, and also suggest that they leave as well? And it appears that this post and other console discussions are getting plenty of hits on this board. I missed the election where you were voted "most important poster and leader of important discussion and issues". Let me know when the next meeting is, I'll be sure to attend so I can make my posts more palatable to your taste.

Like I said, it's not like a rechargeable battery's going to suddenly die on you and render the controller inoperable. If it's anything like the battery replacement options available for the iPod, this is a nonissue.

A non-issue for you. People are illogical, and sometimes make decsions based on criteria that you or I find irrelevent. Maybe its color, size, smell, or any other variable. Just because it doesn't mean anything to you, it may mean something to others. Either that or post a scanned copy of your "Speaks for everyone in the world card" that you seem to carry in your wallet.