Looking for a Few Good Reviewers

[Mr Peabody]

Although Flo could have used more tact, he made some good points. Many of this sites "heroes" have gone on record here one time or another claiming there's no difference in CD players or cables, claiming Yamaha is as good as any preamp processor, claiming any difference heard between cheap and expensive gear is imagination, etc. And this is who you want to review equipment? It's no wonder this site is dead. It's these that chase most of the posters away. I'm not calling anyone out, you know who you are. Some mentioned here on the thread are deserved their respect and obviously others need their keyboards taken away.

Flo is correct in stating one has to have a reference point. All pro reviewers have a system they use as a reference and state that equipment in their review. If the heroes here use mass market receivers as a reference and refuse to concede that there is anything better, then what is the point in putting anything in their hands to review.

I don't knock anyone for having a receiver, I have had many myself in the past, but I knew there was better and as soon as I could afford better I progressed. The key here for me was not in the spending of more money but to have the hearing to discern the improvement and appreciation for better hi fi gear.

** It was not Pat I am referring to in my comment about a Yamaha receiver.

[kexodusc]

Although Flo could have used more tact, he made some good points. Many of this sites "heroes" have gone on record here one time or another claiming there's no difference in CD players or cables, claiming Yamaha is as good as any preamp processor, claiming any difference heard between cheap and expensive gear is imagination, etc. And this is who you want to review equipment? It's no wonder this site is dead. It's these that chase most of the posters away. I'm not calling anyone out, you know who you are. Some mentioned here on the thread are deserved their respect and obviously others need their keyboards taken away.

While I agree with your points, I think this statement is a bit off-base. Most comments I've seen here are more fence-sitting in nature than out right refusal of the idea of sonic differences. I've been on record saying my Arcam doesn't sound any better (to me) than a mass market CD player when I use the optical out and by-pass the mass-market DAC (well, maybe a tiny bit better). This shouldn't be construed as me saying a $400 Denon CD player is as nice as my $1200 Arcam or whatever...(IMO my Arcam is far superior to my $200 changer). The point I was making when I made this statement is that modern a/v receivers have reasonably good DAC's compared to costlier CD players from just a few years back. And much better DAC's than A/V receiver of even 5 years ago. Sign of the times. Offering a cost-effective solution to newbies shouldn't be misconstrued as denying performance improvments exist, just responsible advice that isn't suggesting people throw a smuch money at their systems as possible. Sometimes you have to paint extreme pictures to make a point.

Similar with cables. I haven't heard many people deny that differences exists (aside from the few Engineers that frequent the site). The answer again is usually neutral, but presents the other side of the argument that people who make claims about cable sonics haven't been able to substantiate their claims in any sort of scientific study. Compared to say amps, speakers, and room acoustics that have had differences substantiated by standardized listening tests. This naturally begs the question if differences are real, are they significant enough to justify the cost for the vast majority of this site's audience? I can't imagine any scenario where someone would recommend pure silver cables for a $500 a/v receiver and $800 speakers. That's just not cost effective. I believe I've heard cables create improvements, but never with Dolby Digital soundtracks and a/v receivers. I don't think the subtle levels of enhancement can be captured by home theater sources (yet, maybe HD formats with hi-rez audio will change that).

Most of the other stereo sites I visit (I consider ar.com more of an HT site, most forum activity would support this) have "established heroes" who make similar recommendations to newbies and people with moderately priced systems. Especially those with 5.1 systems costing $1500 or less. You have to know your audience.

Flo is correct in stating one has to have a reference point. All pro reviewers have a system they use as a reference and state that equipment in their review. If the heroes here use mass market receivers as a reference and refuse to concede that there is anything better, then what is the point in putting anything in their hands to review.

That's true. But a reference system should represent the majority of the audience. Flo's got a better system than 99% of Audioreview's visitors so how does that serve as a reference to potential readers? You wouldn't use a Corvette as a reference in the economy car class. What possible value could comparing a $500 H/K receiver and $500 Denon receiver on Flo's Apogees have to a person looking for a $500 a/v solution?

I don't knock anyone for having a receiver, I have had many myself in the past, but I knew there was better and as soon as I could afford better I progressed. The key here for me was not in the spending of more money but to have the hearing to discern the improvement and appreciation for better hi fi gear.

** It was not Pat I am referring to in my comment about a Yamaha receiver.

I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who's said a Yamaha receiver was every bit as good as a costlier pre-amp or pre-pro. Perhaps they've said it was almost as good or as good in certain situations. Most (if not all) of the individuals who would make a claim about receivers generally qualify it in the context of the user's budget, system, etc. A lot of these same people do in fact own much higher quality systems.

Usually a person's opinion has to be kept in context for it to be of value.

[Woochifer]

Although Flo could have used more tact, he made some good points. Many of this sites "heroes" have gone on record here one time or another claiming there's no difference in CD players or cables, claiming Yamaha is as good as any preamp processor, claiming any difference heard between cheap and expensive gear is imagination, etc. And this is who you want to review equipment? It's no wonder this site is dead. It's these that chase most of the posters away. I'm not calling anyone out, you know who you are. Some mentioned here on the thread are deserved their respect and obviously others need their keyboards taken away.

Among the "heroes" that have been cited on this thread, I don't think that anybody has ever said that there are no differences between CD players or between cables, or that Yamaha receivers are as good as "any preamp processor". I know that I've never said anything like that. If you claim that people "have gone on record" making those types of points, then present the actual record to back up your point. That would backup your assertion. But, as such, seems to me like you're letting your own biases distort the reality of what people actually post on this board. I

f anything, most of the regulars who've been "chased" from this board over the past couple of years were the ardent objectivists. While many of them actually made posts to the effect that there are no differences between cables, etc., none of them have been mentioned on this thread as potential reviewers.

Flo is correct in stating one has to have a reference point. All pro reviewers have a system they use as a reference and state that equipment in their review. If the heroes here use mass market receivers as a reference and refuse to concede that there is anything better, then what is the point in putting anything in their hands to review.

And again, I don't see who "refuses" to concede that there's anything better out there, or what posts to that effect have been made by the people mentioned on this thread. If you're going to make a blanket statement about how closed minded people are who own equipment that you perceive as lesser quality, then at least provide some examples.

As Kex said, there's nothing wrong with having a reference point, but the reference also needs to be framed within the context of the equipment being discussed. Even so, owning a midlevel system does not mean that the owner is thereby incapable of evaluating or rendering an opinion regarding higher end components, especially if that person uses more than just CDs and audio system playback as their reference.

[PAT.P]

Although Flo could have used more tact, he made some good points. Many of this sites "heroes" have gone on record here one time or another claiming there's no difference in CD players or cables, claiming Yamaha is as good as any preamp processor, claiming any difference heard between cheap and expensive gear is imagination, etc. And this is who you want to review equipment? It's no wonder this site is dead. It's these that chase most of the posters away. I'm not calling anyone out, you know who you are. Some mentioned here on the thread are deserved their respect and obviously others need their keyboards taken away.

Flo is correct in stating one has to have a reference point. All pro reviewers have a system they use as a reference and state that equipment in their review. If the heroes here use mass market receivers as a reference and refuse to concede that there is anything better, then what is the point in putting anything in their hands to review.

I don't knock anyone for having a receiver, I have had many myself in the past, but I knew there was better and as soon as I could afford better I progressed. The key here for me was not in the spending of more money but to have the hearing to discern the improvement and appreciation for better hi fi gear.

** It was not Pat I am referring to in my comment about a Yamaha receiver.

I would never use any of my equipment as a reference for the best there is ,I let Flo say this for his equipment .I would only compare to what I own .I know when it will be time to buy a reference system(if I ever want one ,not a priority in my life) I wont go out and cut anybody down on this site that buys a Yamaha ,Paradigm ,B&W I got more class than this .If to own a reference system make a person to become arrogant and an ass ,I dont want one.I have my system for the love of music and not for show and tell.Im proud of what I got and the sound I finally achive on a budget.Flo is only pist off because he was'nt mention.How can you get mention when your bias with the money that somebody spend?I dont need to compete with anybody ,only kids in school yard do this. BTW the people that do have reference system on this site dont brag about them(never heard one peson other than Flo) and have not change their life around an audio system.Music is what you fill inside and transport you out to another dimension.This is what I get my high on,dont need drugs.Music is breathtaking no matter how you listen to it.