Listen up, Nightflier: A true universal player

[Mr Peabody]

But.... you will have to dig deep as the MVP-881BR will be released by McIntosh in October. It will play SACD/DVD-A/CD and of course, Blu-ray. I tried to search for a link with some additional information but Mac must be keeping this pretty much under wraps accept it's coming. There is a blirp on Bluray.com

[pixelthis]

Time to put the old kidney up for sale.

[frahengeo]

I wonder what the similarities will be between the Mac and Denon? I read that the Denon is using a Mac designed tray mechanism. From a feature standpoint, I can't see the Mac having anything additional. Perhaps the internals will be very different, since the Mac will more than likely carry a higher price tag.

[Auricauricle]

Ah, but it's a Mac!

[Mr Peabody]

Do you know the Denon model number and if they still play DVD-A?

I would suspect Mac would keep with their typical sonic signature. Whether that justifies the additional expense only the listener can decide. For the price this unit will probably sell for I think I'd look or hold out for something with a more resolving sound, but this is being said not hearing the unit and speculation.

[atomicAdam]

if you'all ever checked the news/press section on the rest of the site you would have seen there was a 'blurb' on audioreview too - on wed of last week.

but yeah, there appears to be no other real information about it.

it made me think of something though.

blu-ray/DVD/SACD - all those codecs have been written by other companies who probably know a hell of a lot more about fine tuning the hardware to the codecs than McIntosh does.Why would a McIntosh universal player be so much more attractive?

[frahengeo]

Do you know the Denon model number and if they still play DVD-A?

I would suspect Mac would keep with their typical sonic signature. Whether that justifies the additional expense only the listener can decide. For the price this unit will probably sell for I think I'd look or hold out for something with a more resolving sound, but this is being said not hearing the unit and speculation.

Can one get the Mac signature by only having a Mac source component (i.e. no pre, no amp).

Link for Denon Universal Player, and yes it will play DVD-A

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4760.asp

If it could play records, 8-tracks, cassettes, then it would be a true universal player :-).

Interestingly, Mac is also following Denon by releasing a pre/pro that will handle all the HT codecs. The features between the two units seemed very similar as well. Mac MX-150 & Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

[bfalls]

You keep referring to "Mac". You do realize this is from McIntosh, not MacIntosh (Apple) right?

[nightflier]

So if I understand this right, there are still only three choices for a true universal player (well w/o records, 8-tracks, cassettes, of course):

1. The Oppo BDP-83
- msrp $499
- freakin' glowing reviews from just about everyone, albeit always with constant mention of the $499 price-point
- plays every codec except DTS-ES and DD-EX (but no one seems to care, so we'll pretend that it doesn't either).

2. The Denon DVD-A1UDCI
- msrp $1999
- has McIntosh-derived drive mechanism
- good, albeit sparse reviews, but does anyone actually own one?
- Supports DTS-ES & DD-EX

3. The new Mac/Mc
- msrp $stratosphere
- has classic McIntosh sound (whatever that means)
- has classic McIntosh looks (hopefully not like their record player)

Yes, there's also the PS3, but it doesn't play DVD-A or have analog outputs, so it doesn't make the list, sorry. Anyhow, still not much of a choice. Any rumors about any other courageous manufacturers coming out with a universal player? So far, it's pretty much a wash with Oppo taking the lead in a big way. I suspect that even with the higher price-point, Oppo's sales figures will be way over both Denon and McIntosh combined, by the end of the year. We can only hope Oppo doesn't run out of inventory.

[frahengeo]

So if I understand this right, there are still only three choices for a true universal player (well w/o records, 8-tracks, cassettes, of course):

1. The Oppo BDP-83
- msrp $499
- freakin' glowing reviews from just about everyone, albeit always with constant mention of the $499 price-point
- plays every codec except DTS-ES and DD-EX (but no one seems to care, so we'll pretend that it doesn't either).

2. The Denon DVD-A1UDCI
- msrp $1999
- has McIntosh-derived drive mechanism
- good, albeit sparse reviews, but does anyone actually own one?
- Supports DTS-ES & DD-EX

The Denon MSRP is actually: $4,500 (The Mac unit is expected to be more!!). There are Denon owners in other forums and they speak highly of it (as one would expect). Its a good match for those that own their Pre/Pro or for those with money to burn. Also, Denon has/will be releasing other models, closer to the Oppo price, that will be of the universal type.

As far as other manufacturers, Marantz comes to mind. I believe its in the $6k range. Now that's 3 universal units from one parent company (D&M)

With blu-ray being new and high potential for changes (profile 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, etc., hdmi 1.4, etc.) the Oppo seems like the sound choice for MOST.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

With blu-ray being new and high potential for changes (profile 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, etc., hdmi 1.4, etc.) the Oppo seems like the sound choice for MOST.

There will be no profile changes for Blu-ray, and you will find hdmi 1.4 unnecessary for most components selling today. Hdmi 1.4 is a forward thinking upgrade to 1.3a. Most of these upgrades are completely unnecessary for todays displays and players, as they cannot do half the things the new standard incorporates.

In terms of Blu-ray profiles, the only one that has not been implemented is the audio only profile 3.0. Since manufacturers are already installing 3.0 profile components in their high end Blu-ray players(better DAC, and the ability to shut off analog video circuits during audio only playback, and the support AVCHD without video for the audio) that profile has pretty much become absolete. High quality music only support can be acheive without this profile.

As far as HDMI 1.4, pretty soon all components will have it whether we desire it or not. As 4K video, 3D video, and two way communicating devices come online, it is only then this incarnation of HDMI becomes necessary. 4K will probably be the next big thing, perhaps 3D after that. Each still has a way to go in terms of making the cut in a viable consumer product. 4K requires very large screens(past the 100" which is the largest 1080p can support without blowing up digital artifacts not normally seen), probably 150" and above to see all the detail, and there is still no way to deliver that much video information to the screen.

Since I do not care for a manfacturers "sound", the MacIntosh equipment is not desireable for me. Having auditioned the XRT2K, I found its sound not compatible with a speaker that costs as much as a down payment on a house. I have heard better in their price range, and for less.

[frahengeo]

There will be no profile changes for Blu-ray, and you will find hdmi 1.4 unnecessary for most components selling today. Hdmi 1.4 is a forward thinking upgrade to 1.3a. Most of these upgrades are completely unnecessary for todays displays and players, as they cannot do half the things the new standard incorporates.

In terms of Blu-ray profiles, the only one that has not been implemented is the audio only profile 3.0. Since manufacturers are already installing 3.0 profile components in their high end Blu-ray players(better DAC, and the ability to shut off analog video circuits during audio only playback, and the support AVCHD without video for the audio) that profile has pretty much become absolete. High quality music only support can be acheive without this profile.

As far as HDMI 1.4, pretty soon all components will have it whether we desire it or not. As 4K video, 3D video, and two way communicating devices come online, it is only then this incarnation of HDMI becomes necessary. 4K will probably be the next big thing, perhaps 3D after that. Each still has a way to go in terms of making the cut in a viable consumer product. 4K requires very large screens(past the 100" which is the largest 1080p can support without blowing up digital artifacts not normally seen), probably 150" and above to see all the detail, and there is still no way to deliver that much video information to the screen.

Since I do not care for a manfacturers "sound", the MacIntosh equipment is not desireable for me. Having auditioned the XRT2K, I found its sound not compatible with a speaker that costs as much as a down payment on a house. I have heard better in their price range, and for less.

So as long as the blu-ray format is the latest and greatest, no one will feel "burned" buying any of the recent blu-ray player?

Never heard of 4K. For that format, the room size could also be a limiting factor. I don't know many that can accommodate a 150" screen size without speakers getting in the way.

[Mr Peabody]

Adam, who the hell reads AR Actually, I like seeing news, if the site wasn't so cluttered to where I could find the link I would most certainly like to keep up.

Denon sure shows the MSRP at $4.5k, that would make $2k a good deal Did any one notice they have a dual HDMI output, one for video and one for audio, saying something about extra clocking. I'd sure be interested to see or hear if all that makes a difference.

[pixelthis]

So as long as the blu-ray format is the latest and greatest, no one will feel "burned" buying any of the recent blu-ray player?

Never heard of 4K. For that format, the room size could also be a limiting factor. I don't know many that can accommodate a 150" screen size with speaker getting in the way.

a TAD "burned maybe.
But only because I only have one multichannel in for my receiver, and my Blu player
has ta have it, leaving my DVDA/SACD player on 2 channel.
Now I prefer my music 2 channel, but it would be nice to have a one box solution
and have the option of multichannel music without rewiring my system.
But its a quibble, really a Blu player is so much fun that its hard not to be satisfied
with it.
But if I had known about the OPPO earlier I would have made a different purchase.
And no, no one does care about EX and ES, both are, ahem...DEAD.

[frahengeo]

Adam, who the hell reads AR Actually, I like seeing news, if the site wasn't so cluttered to where I could find the link I would most certainly like to keep up.

Denon sure shows the MSRP at $4.5k, that would make $2k a good deal Did any one notice they have a dual HDMI output, one for video and one for audio, saying something about extra clocking. I'd sure be interested to see or hear if all that makes a difference.

Here is a link to the Denon Universal thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048326

Some good pictures there. Also, since its a rather long thread, you'll need to sift out the useful information.

If one wants jitter free audio via HDMI, then both HDMI and their proprietary Denon Link system must be used in conjunction with an HDMI and Denon link capable receiver or pre/pro. Otherwise, one can always use the analog outs of the Universal for the audio portion.

[Mr Peabody]

frahengeo, thanks for the links. They're worth a greenie but I must have given you one recently.

[frahengeo]

frahengeo, thanks for the links. They're worth a greenie but I must have given you one recently.

No problem. What's a greenie anyway?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If one wants jitter free audio via HDMI, then both HDMI and their proprietary Denon Link system must be used in conjunction with an HDMI and Denon link capable receiver or pre/pro. Otherwise, one can always use the analog outs of the Universal for the audio portion.

Nobody has proven that jitter exists using HDMI, so the Denon link(which worked well for CD playback) at this connection is marketing hype.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So as long as the blu-ray format is the latest and greatest, no one will feel "burned" buying any of the recent blu-ray player?

If you have no interest in 3D(at least several years away) then any 2.0 profile player purchased today will not make you feel burned. 3D will require a new player and a new display as well. I just purchased two oppo players for my review and reference system. I had no problem with my purchase even though I also have to purchase a new player when 3D becomes available for reviewing reasons.

Never heard of 4K. For that format, the room size could also be a limiting factor. I don't know many that can accommodate a 150" screen size without speakers getting in the way.

4K is more suitable to dedicated rooms that are front projector based. Speaker placement is more akin to a professional movie theater where they are behind the screen instead of the conventional home placement of in front of the screen.

[frahengeo]

Nobody has proven that jitter exists using HDMI, so the Denon link(which worked well for CD playback) at this connection is marketing hype.

What, Denon Link worked well to reduce jitter in CD or the hype worked well in selling Denon Link?

Not sure who the Officials are regarding this topic. IEEE perhaps? Plenty of plausible explanations out there (plausible to me anyways). Just like all the other debates in A/V, everyone will need to decide for themselves.

[frahengeo]

If you have no interest in 3D(at least several years away) then any 2.0 profile player purchased today will not make you feel burned. 3D will require a new player and a new display as well. I just purchased two oppo players for my review and reference system. I had no problem with my purchase even though I also have to purchase a new player when 3D becomes available for reviewing reasons.



4K is more suitable to dedicated rooms that are front projector based. Speaker placement is more akin to a professional movie theater where they are behind the screen instead of the conventional home placement of in front of the screen.

I meant the next iteration of blu-ray if there is one. I wasn't referring to another format. We all know that the next latest and greatest are in the plans.

Again, I'm not sure how many will be able fit a 150" screen in their home.

Regarding the Oppo player, that was my point. At $500.00 who cares if it can't handle the next format in a few years? Makes those TOTL units more difficult to justify.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I meant the next iteration of blu-ray if there is one. I wasn't referring to another format. We all know that the next latest and greatest are in the plans.

4k is not another format, it is a display resolution. Blu-ray can accomodate it by providing a 1080p signal that can be upconverted to 2160p via the display device. There are also millions of Blu-ray players(all except the first generation and a few second generation players) that can read Pioneers four layer Blu-ray disc that can accomodate 4K video. We are not talking a new format here, we are talking a new connect. HDMI 1.3a cannot accomodate 4K video, so the display device must do a upconversion process.

Again, I'm not sure how many will be able fit a 150" screen in their home.

You would be surprised at how many 150" screens are already out there. I have a 130" myself even though I do not recommend using one. 1080p blown up to that size reveals all kinds of artifacts that you would not see on a 100" screen or smaller. 1080p was never designed to be blown up that size.

Regarding the Oppo player, that was my point. At $500.00 who cares if it can't handle the next format in a few years? Makes those TOTL units more difficult to justify.

I agree with you man!

[nightflier]

Oops, misquoted the price of the Denon player. Let me rephrase and add a few more comments:

1. The Oppo BDP-83
- msrp $499
- freakin' glowing reviews from just about everyone, albeit always with constant mention of the $499 price-point
- plays every codec except DTS-ES and DD-EX (but no one seems to care, so we'll pretend that it doesn't either).
- At $500, it's hard to find even a two player alternative (BR + DVD/SACD) who's combination compares on features.

2. Marantz Vaporware
- msrp $1200
- Marantz has been in the BR business for some time and their players have been very well reviewed.
- Marantz' support of SACD has consistently been 2-channel - if their BR player only supports SACD in 2-channel, this one is going to fall flat on its face. I mean why pay $1200 for only part of what a $500 player supports?

3. The Denon DVD-A1UDCI
- msrp $4500
- has McIntosh-derived drive mechanism, extra audio-focused features
- good, albeit sparse reviews, but can anyone justify the cost of one?
- Supports DTS-ES & DD-EX, and everything else.

4. The new Mac/Mc
- msrp $stratosphere - probably around $6K
- has classic McIntosh sound (whatever that means)
- has classic McIntosh looks (hopefully not like their record player)
- at $6K, even Mac owners are going to wonder if it's worth it.

IMO, the only real contender is the as yet unannounced Marantz option, and that's only if it offers multi-channel SACD support. Oppo has built up a very good reputation for performance, service and reliability. If they can produce a universal player at $500, even audiophiles and wealthy insurance execs will be asking themselves what 2-10x the price will actually add. People with deep pockets didn't get rich by making stupid investments. So if the Oppo keeps providing quality and performance at a fraction of the price, there's no reason it can't be the player of choice in a rack were it costs less than the cheapest cable, not to mention the rack itself.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Oops, misquoted the price of the Denon player. Let me rephrase and add a few more comments:

1. The Oppo BDP-83
- msrp $499
- freakin' glowing reviews from just about everyone, albeit always with constant mention of the $499 price-point
- plays every codec except DTS-ES and DD-EX (but no one seems to care, so we'll pretend that it doesn't either).
- At $500, it's hard to find even a two player alternative (BR + DVD/SACD) who's combination compares on features.

2. Marantz Vaporware
- msrp $1200
- Marantz has been in the BR business for some time and their players have been very well reviewed.
- Marantz' support of SACD has consistently been 2-channel - if their BR player only supports SACD in 2-channel, this one is going to fall flat on its face. I mean why pay $1200 for only part of what a $500 player supports?

3. The Denon DVD-A1UDCI
- msrp $4500
- has McIntosh-derived drive mechanism, extra audio-focused features
- good, albeit sparse reviews, but can anyone justify the cost of one?
- Supports DTS-ES & DD-EX, and everything else.

4. The new Mac/Mc
- msrp $stratosphere - probably around $6K
- has classic McIntosh sound (whatever that means)
- has classic McIntosh looks (hopefully not like their record player)
- at $6K, even Mac owners are going to wonder if it's worth it.

IMO, the only real contender is the as yet unannounced Marantz option, and that's only if it offers multi-channel SACD support. Oppo has built up a very good reputation for performance, service and reliability. If they can produce a universal player at $500, even audiophiles and wealthy insurance execs will be asking themselves what 2-10x the price will actually add. People with deep pockets didn't get rich by making stupid investments. So if the Oppo keeps providing quality and performance at a fraction of the price, there's no reason it can't be the player of choice in a rack were it costs less than the cheapest cable, not to mention the rack itself.

IMO there is no contender for the Oppo at its current price. It is already using the finest state of the art video processing and upconversion technology, and it can do anything audiowise you throw at it. Why pay more? How much more performance do these uber priced universal players will add with their higher price tag over the Oppo? I would say not much if any, and certainly not enough to justify their price difference.

[frahengeo]

Oops, misquoted the price of the Denon player. Let me rephrase and add a few more comments:

1. The Oppo BDP-83
- msrp $499
- freakin' glowing reviews from just about everyone, albeit always with constant mention of the $499 price-point
- plays every codec except DTS-ES and DD-EX (but no one seems to care, so we'll pretend that it doesn't either).
- At $500, it's hard to find even a two player alternative (BR + DVD/SACD) who's combination compares on features.

2. Marantz Vaporware
- msrp $1200
- Marantz has been in the BR business for some time and their players have been very well reviewed.
- Marantz' support of SACD has consistently been 2-channel - if their BR player only supports SACD in 2-channel, this one is going to fall flat on its face. I mean why pay $1200 for only part of what a $500 player supports?

3. The Denon DVD-A1UDCI
- msrp $4500
- has McIntosh-derived drive mechanism, extra audio-focused features
- good, albeit sparse reviews, but can anyone justify the cost of one?
- Supports DTS-ES & DD-EX, and everything else.

4. The new Mac/Mc
- msrp $stratosphere - probably around $6K
- has classic McIntosh sound (whatever that means)
- has classic McIntosh looks (hopefully not like their record player)
- at $6K, even Mac owners are going to wonder if it's worth it.

IMO, the only real contender is the as yet unannounced Marantz option, and that's only if it offers multi-channel SACD support. Oppo has built up a very good reputation for performance, service and reliability. If they can produce a universal player at $500, even audiophiles and wealthy insurance execs will be asking themselves what 2-10x the price will actually add. People with deep pockets didn't get rich by making stupid investments. So if the Oppo keeps providing quality and performance at a fraction of the price, there's no reason it can't be the player of choice in a rack were it costs less than the cheapest cable, not to mention the rack itself.

This from the Ad on the right-hand side of AR:

The MVP881BR also features:

* BD-Live Profile 2.0 support
* On-board audio decoders for DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD
* Multichannel analog outputs
* Custom linear power supply
* Fully balanced 2-channel audio design
* 32-bit/192kHz DACs
* 1080p/24 and 60 frame output
* Backlit, learning IR remote

Man, this looks an awful lot like the Denon...I guess the 4th bullet point will be the difference.

And the link to Marantz @ $6,000 (plays BR, SACD, DVD-A):

http://us.marantz.com/Products/2936.asp

Note: Denon, Mac, and Marantz all have a thin profile tray. I imagine a lot of cost savings in R&D.