Lessons From The Death of HD-DVD

[Woochifer]

Daniel Dilger who blogs on roughlydrafted.com and is a contributor on Apple Insider wrote an interesting article about the underlying forces at work that led to the demise of HD-DVD. Dilger's very pro-Apple and anti-Microsoft, but compared to the Windows-centric pundits in the rest of the tech press, he has been correct more often than wrong. He argues that HD-DVD was primarily Microsoft's weapon to steer the media formats towards its proprietary Windows formats, but the pushback from open standards advocates was more persuasive and effective this time around.


http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/0...ath-of-hd-dvd/

Although the article gets a few facts wrong, the overall premise I think is spot on. HD-DVD was all about Microsoft trying to tie media standards into its proprietary model. The quote below is all too true to how Microsoft does business, and what they tried to do with HD-DVD.

None of these efforts hid the reality that Microsoft wanted to simply duplicate in media what it had done to the PC desktop: copy existing technology, add proprietary hooks, and then sit back and tax the industry with software fees without adding any value. After having been burned repeatedly, the rest of the industry is now ready to shoot down every effort Microsoft makes to enslave innovation and progress.

The rest of the article has some interesting background about the different codecs, and how Blu-ray's usage of open formats like MPEG-4 H.264 and Java allow for scaling down media content to a wider range of applications.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Daniel Dilger who blogs on roughlydrafted.com and is a contributor on Apple Insider wrote an interesting article about the underlying forces at work that led to the demise of HD-DVD. Dilger's very pro-Apple and anti-Microsoft, but compared to the Windows-centric pundits in the rest of the tech press, he has been correct more often than wrong. He argues that HD-DVD was primarily Microsoft's weapon to steer the media formats towards its proprietary Windows formats, but the pushback from open standards advocates was more persuasive and effective this time around.


http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/0...ath-of-hd-dvd/

Although the article gets a few facts wrong, the overall premise I think is spot on. HD-DVD was all about Microsoft trying to tie media standards into its proprietary model. The quote below is all too true to how Microsoft does business, and what they tried to do with HD-DVD.



The rest of the article has some interesting background about the different codecs, and how Blu-ray's usage of open formats like MPEG-4 H.264 and Java allow for scaling down media content to a wider range of applications.

Wooch,
Now do you see why I blame Microsoft for all of this. Alot of folks in Hollywood knew what was going on behind the scenes. Several times in my post to nightidiot in the general section I told him that Microsoft may be big in the computer industry, but they are dog dung in Hollywood. I also stated on this forum that Warner decision was more of a rebuff of Microsoft than of Toshiba. I also said right here that Microsoft did not accompany Toshiba to the Warner negotiations, now everyone can see why.

To show you how much love Hollywood has for Microsoft, one just has to see how Hollywood delivered Apple one of the best contracts for access to television programming and some movies for Itunes. Every studio is on board to deliver some content, XBOX live only has a few majors, and the contracts are only for selected programming and some movies.

In regards to the disinformation campaign by the HD DVD PG and Microsoft, Amir, Rdjam, Ben Waggoner, Kosty, Robert George all from AVS were paid shills to do this. David Vaughn was a late comer, but nevertheless a virolent liar on Bluray replication facilities. On too many occasions I have gone over to AVS to debate and counter their misinformation, just like alot of bluray insiders had to do. Amir constant mentions of Disney going HD DVD exclusive had to be countered with no way in hell too often. AVS turned from one of the best technical sites on the web, into misinformation headquarters for HD DVD. They basically ruined the forum, as many have left to get away from the fallout. Us bluray insider stop posting there because the mods were quite lose and free with the HD DVD folks, and constantly checking the bluray folks. When we noticed this trend, we decided to boycott the site. If you go there now, the insiders thread is gone because of the constant misinformation campaign, and the countering thereof.

Toshiba was used by Microsoft. They knew they were not going to win, and was ready to throw in the towel. They were foolish for listening to microsoft. They could have saved the $600 million in losses, and could have been producing a bluray player to profit from. I hope they have learned something. Too many companies will not partner with Microsoft to sweep a floor because of their tactics, and willingness to jetison a venture when it doesn't suit them. The ONLY reason they threw their support behind HD DVD is because they were angry at the BDA for chosing BD-java, and sticking with MPEG-2 until AVC was ready. One of the minor reason that Warner sided with bluray was they knew the consumer and infrastucture was not ready for downloads, and that is where Microsoft wanted to take the industry.

Nightliar, I hope you are reading this. Microsoft ain't what it used to be, and never will be. I hope you see that Microsoft backing something does not mean automatic success. I have pointed to many examples of their failure, I hope you are paying attention to the latest one.

[kexodusc]

That was certainly a provocative article Wooch.

But man oh man, that writer's anti-Microsoft crusade is even too much for me.

[pixelthis]

That was certainly a provocative article Wooch.

But man oh man, that writer's anti-Microsoft crusade is even too much for me.

Yeah, a comet is about to smash into the Earth.
QUICK, find a way to blame Microsoft!

All from an Apple devotee no doubt.
APPLE computers make "style" statements, their stuff looks sooo cute!
But their stuff is generally considered a joke, used by some Hollywood types sure,
but its just another way for the aging hippies out there to "fight the man".

And Sir talky's tirade is so over the top, not to mention completely wrong, that it needs no answer. He pretty much discredits hisself, as usual.
The guys at TOSHIBA are big boys, mayby microsoft was a partner, but to say that
they were puppets used by gates is silly.
If Microsoft wanted to get into this they would have, and they would have probably
won.
As for "value" well, if you want a boutique computer or an ipod go to apple.
if you want a server, web brouser, operating system, codec , or pretty much anything else
go to microsoft.
One reason I think maybey talky hates micro so much is that they came out with
an elegant , inexpensive HD format , only trouble was, it played on your computer!
How do you sell players for THAT.
And that is what the talkys of the world are about, sell tech in dibs and drabs,
and make the "marks" buy a new player to keep up.
One generation of player in 1080i, the next in 1080p, the next with true HD, etc.
And he talks about Microsoft retarding progress!
If talky and his band of shysters could figure out how you'd have to buy a new player every year.
A NEW FORMAT that doesnt require an expensive new player!!!
SACRILIGE!

[Woochifer]

Yeah, a comet is about to smash into the Earth.
QUICK, find a way to blame Microsoft!

All from an Apple devotee no doubt.
APPLE computers make "style" statements, their stuff looks sooo cute!
But their stuff is generally considered a joke, used by some Hollywood types sure,
but its just another way for the aging hippies out there to "fight the man".

Check again. In the audio industry and in the video download arena that you keep touting as the wave of the future, Apple IS the man. iPod sales alone are roughly TRIPLE what the ENTIRE home audio component industry sells. And they are the number one vendor of both music and video downloads, hardly what I would call a joke.

And on their computers, who's calling their stuff a joke when pundit after pundit has begun recommending Macs in light of Microsoft's continuing disaster with Vista? I don't use a Mac because it's "cute." I use one because it does what I need a computer to do with the fewer headaches, crashes, and security issues. Try one out sometime, you might actually learn something. Then again, your posting pattern would seem to indicate otherwise!

And Sir talky's tirade is so over the top, not to mention completely wrong, that it needs no answer. He pretty much discredits hisself, as usual.
The guys at TOSHIBA are big boys, mayby microsoft was a partner, but to say that
they were puppets used by gates is silly.
If Microsoft wanted to get into this they would have, and they would have probably
won.
As for "value" well, if you want a boutique computer or an ipod go to apple.
if you want a server, web brouser, operating system, codec , or pretty much anything else
go to microsoft.

And to think I was silly enough to believe that connect-the-dots was a mere child's play game -- I guess to you, it's quite an advanced concept because you don't get it.

Microsoft is a monopolist that, for every market that they enter, tries to steer that market towards their proprietary formats and standards. In the case of HD-DVD, that would be VC-1 and HDi. To them, Blu-ray is the enemy because its underlying technology uses open standards such as MPEG-4 H.264 and Java. Toshiba was a pawn because they were on the verge of agreeing to a one-format compromise with Blu-ray similar to when Sony and Philips dropped their competing video disc format and allowed a unified DVD format to move forward back in 1995. Microsoft made it sound like they would be an involved HD-DVD partner, and use their market muscle to promote the format. But, their support only went far enough to prod Toshiba into launching HD-DVD. They wanted to muddy the market for Sony and Blu-ray, but they weren't willing to put up much of a fight once things started going south for HD-DVD.

And Microsoft's history of screwing their partners is long and well documented. Microsoft saw an opportunity to divide the market, so they quickly announced that they would support HD-DVD, which Toshiba mistakenly saw as a market opportunity for HD-DVD. But, Microsoft's support was half-a$$ed and two-faced. They never put their money where their mouth was. They could've delayed the Xbox360 launch in order to integrate the HD-DVD drive into the console design, but they didn't.

Microsoft will only go all out for their own interests, not when the initiative involves a partner. Just look at their whole PlaysForSure disaster. They got a bunch of hardware partners like Creative to sign on, and less than two years later when PlaysForSure fails to gain market traction against the iPod, Microsoft goes on their own with the Zune and screws their PlaysForSure partners. Toshiba's only the latest Microsoft partner in a long line.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I cannot believe this statement from a person trying to pass themselves off as knowing everything under the sun.

mayby microsoft was a partner, but to say that
they were puppets used by gates is silly.
If Microsoft wanted to get into this they would have, and they would have probably
won.

Maybe Microsoft was a partner???? And they would have probably won??? Has this foo been on another planet? Everyone and their grandmother knew that Microsoft jumped behind HD DVD when they were rebuffed by the BDA on VC-1 and HDi. Everyone in the industry heard about Gates getting into Springers face about getting BD+ out of the spec so bluray would play in PC's with window media player. When he was rebuffed, he huffed off and jump behind Toshiba.

Well pixeless, Microsoft was a partner, and HD DVD lost. So much for you half a$$ theories. I guess we can chalk this up to another moonshine moment.

[filecat13]

I read roughlydrafted.com several times a week to get some perspective on much of the over-the-top punditry I slog through on some of the mainstream sites. Yeah, Dilger can be over focused at times, but he almost always has a more reasoned and researched approach. He even includes verifiable resources.

I get really tired of seeing a Web pundit say something is a "fact" then offer absolutely no support other than his say-so that said fact really exists. Certain Internet clowns make a living off inventing outrageous, unsupported "facts" that drive sensation-seeking readers to their sites. Compared to them, Dilger looks like a freakin' Rhodes Scholar. (Which I'm pretty sure he is not. )

Anyway, at the risk of sounding agreeable, I think history shows MS has made a lifestyle out of screwing its partners--a lesson Apple learned the hard way and almost didn't recover from. In addition to finally thwarting another MS subterfuge, the nice thing about the BluRay victory is the presence of standardized formats in both the hard media and soft media.

We'll have to see if Apple does anything with BluRay or not, but either way MPEG-4 and H.264 are now both the de jure and de facto standards going forward for both hard (disc) and soft (download) media, and that has to be a good thing.

[pixelthis]

Check again. In the audio industry and in the video download arena that you keep touting as the wave of the future, Apple IS the man. iPod sales alone are roughly TRIPLE what the ENTIRE home audio component industry sells. And they are the number one vendor of both music and video downloads, hardly what I would call a joke.

And on their computers, who's calling their stuff a joke when pundit after pundit has begun recommending Macs in light of Microsoft's continuing disaster with Vista? I don't use a Mac because it's "cute." I use one because it does what I need a computer to do with the fewer headaches, crashes, and security issues. Try one out sometime, you might actually learn something. Then again, your posting pattern would seem to indicate otherwise!



And to think I was silly enough to believe that connect-the-dots was a mere child's play game -- I guess to you, it's quite an advanced concept because you don't get it.

Microsoft is a monopolist that, for every market that they enter, tries to steer that market towards their proprietary formats and standards. In the case of HD-DVD, that would be VC-1 and HDi. To them, Blu-ray is the enemy because its underlying technology uses open standards such as MPEG-4 H.264 and Java. Toshiba was a pawn because they were on the verge of agreeing to a one-format compromise with Blu-ray similar to when Sony and Philips dropped their competing video disc format and allowed a unified DVD format to move forward back in 1995. Microsoft made it sound like they would be an involved HD-DVD partner, and use their market muscle to promote the format. But, their support only went far enough to prod Toshiba into launching HD-DVD. They wanted to muddy the market for Sony and Blu-ray, but they weren't willing to put up much of a fight once things started going south for HD-DVD.

And Microsoft's history of screwing their partners is long and well documented. Microsoft saw an opportunity to divide the market, so they quickly announced that they would support HD-DVD, which Toshiba mistakenly saw as a market opportunity for HD-DVD. But, Microsoft's support was half-a$$ed and two-faced. They never put their money where their mouth was. They could've delayed the Xbox360 launch in order to integrate the HD-DVD drive into the console design, but they didn't.

Microsoft will only go all out for their own interests, not when the initiative involves a partner. Just look at their whole PlaysForSure disaster. They got a bunch of hardware partners like Creative to sign on, and less than two years later when PlaysForSure fails to gain market traction against the iPod, Microsoft goes on their own with the Zune and screws their PlaysForSure partners. Toshiba's only the latest Microsoft partner in a long line.

OH PLEASE!
I am not a "lover" of microsoft but the truth is we need standards in the computer world.
You take it for granted but the only reason everybody on this site can talk to each other is
protocols and standards. AND SOMEBODY NEEDS TO ENFORCE THOSE STANDARDS.
As for Apple being a joke I was reffering to their line of toy computers, most of which you can't put an extra HD or anything else in.
And true vista has had problems but thats why you dont buy an operating system until its been around for awhile.
XP has been trouble free for me, I see no reason to upgrade, and wont until the compatibility problems have been addressed.
But thse are nothing compared to APPLES SIMILAR PROBLEMS.
Artsy types like people in publishing and some media like Apple, but most in serious lines of work use PC, as do most people.
As for micro being a "monopolist" they are guilty of no more or less than other companies.
People always look out for their self inyerest.
And to blame the demise of HALF BAKED format that was doomed to failure from the start on their "half assed efforts", if they had done more would you be screaming they were "monopolistic"?
Thats what I thought.
As for trying to "steer" the industry towards a few industry codecs , whats wrong with that?
Why do we need ten different ways of doing something?
The superiority of VC-1 is well known BTW.
Microsoft saw two competing formats and went with the wrong one, simple as that.
They probably thought cost would be a factor like its been in every format war so far,
and they guessed wrong..
Look at it this way, do you really think the boys who came up with Vista ARE REALLY CAPABLE OF SUCH far reaching "conspiracies"?

People who see such conspiracies are guilty of a logical fallacy.
They see ten wrecks at an intersection and think someone must be causing those wrecks.
When its probably a poorly designed intersection.
Sure micro backed a disc format, big deal, there were two, the chances were fifty fifty they were going to back either one, they just backed the wrong one.
God help us if they HAD backed Blu Ray, all of you conspiracy wackjobs would be having a fit right about now, screaming about how micro is "taking over"!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

OH PLEASE!
I am not a "lover" of microsoft but the truth is we need standards in the computer world.
You take it for granted but the only reason everybody on this site can talk to each other is
protocols and standards. AND SOMEBODY NEEDS TO ENFORCE THOSE STANDARDS.
As for Apple being a joke I was reffering to their line of toy computers, most of which you can't put an extra HD or anything else in.
And true vista has had problems but thats why you dont buy an operating system until its been around for awhile.
XP has been trouble free for me, I see no reason to upgrade, and wont until the compatibility problems have been addressed.
But thse are nothing compared to APPLES SIMILAR PROBLEMS.
Artsy types like people in publishing and some media like Apple, but most in serious lines of work use PC, as do most people.
As for micro being a "monopolist" they are guilty of no more or less than other companies.
People always look out for their self inyerest.
And to blame the demise of HALF BAKED format that was doomed to failure from the start on their "half assed efforts", if they had done more would you be screaming they were "monopolistic"?
Thats what I thought.
As for trying to "steer" the industry towards a few industry codecs , whats wrong with that?
Why do we need ten different ways of doing something?
The superiority of VC-1 is well known BTW.
Microsoft saw two competing formats and went with the wrong one, simple as that.
They probably thought cost would be a factor like its been in every format war so far,
and they guessed wrong..
Look at it this way, do you really think the boys who came up with Vista ARE REALLY CAPABLE OF SUCH far reaching "conspiracies"?

People who see such conspiracies are guilty of a logical fallacy.
They see ten wrecks at an intersection and think someone must be causing those wrecks.
When its probably a poorly designed intersection.
Sure micro backed a disc format, big deal, there were two, the chances were fifty fifty they were going to back either one, they just backed the wrong one.
God help us if they HAD backed Blu Ray, all of you conspiracy wackjobs would be having a fit right about now, screaming about how micro is "taking over"!

You really are as stupid as I first believed, maybe even worse. You don't know anything and think you know everything. Pretty tragic, but self applied ignorance usually is.

[Woochifer]

OH PLEASE!
I am not a "lover" of microsoft but the truth is we need standards in the computer world.
You take it for granted but the only reason everybody on this site can talk to each other is
protocols and standards. AND SOMEBODY NEEDS TO ENFORCE THOSE STANDARDS.

Uh, the industry has already defined the standards -- MPEG-4 H.264 is an example of an open standard that was agreed upon by consensus and approved by an international standards body. Microsoft's typical tactic is to take agreed-upon industry standards and then tie a proprietary fork to their Windows monopoly in order to divide the market (e.g., proprietary non-standard website tags that only read in IE, MS' non-standard version of Java, etc.). They tried that same tactic this time around by forcing a nonstandard format down the industry's throat, and it failed. HD-DVD is just one of many channels they've tried to get VC-1 adopted, and no doubt they'll keep trying, because they make no money so long as the industry continues to go towards H.264.

As for Apple being a joke I was reffering to their line of toy computers, most of which you can't put an extra HD or anything else in.

Ever heard of external hard drives or USB devices? I guess not.

And if Apple's computers are "toys" like you say they are, then how come the fastest Vista notebook that PC World tested last year was the Apple MacBook Pro?

You want a "toy" computer, look no further than all these bargain basement PCs running "Vista Home Basic."

And true vista has had problems but thats why you dont buy an operating system until its been around for awhile.
XP has been trouble free for me, I see no reason to upgrade, and wont until the compatibility problems have been addressed.
But thse are nothing compared to APPLES SIMILAR PROBLEMS.

Really? You mean OS X has the same issues with viruses, malware, and spyware as Windows? (Since you're clearly ignorant on the subject of Macs, the answer to that is a definitive no)

Fact of the matter is that every successive version of OS X actually makes the same computer run faster. Upgrading from OS X Tiger to Leopard resulted in nearly across-the-board increases in my system's benchmark scores -- can't say that about a PC going from XP to Vista (or Windows2000 to XP for that matter), where the performance benchmarks on some measures can drop by more than half.

Like I said, try spending some time with a Mac, you might actually learn something ... that is if you're capable of that.

Artsy types like people in publishing and some media like Apple, but most in serious lines of work use PC, as do most people.

Gosh, you mean my wife's research with DNA sequencing (which is done using UNIX programs running on a Mac) isn't a "serious" line of work? Thanks for letting me know. I'll go ahead and tell her that she's not as smart as I thought she was, because only the serious work is done a Windows machine.

As for micro being a "monopolist" they are guilty of no more or less than other companies.

Uh, least time I checked MS was ruled to be monopolist by the courts on two continents and forced to operate under consent decrees, so by definition that makes them more guilty than Apple or any other company without a court ruling to that effect.

People always look out for their self inyerest.
And to blame the demise of HALF BAKED format that was doomed to failure from the start on their "half assed efforts", if they had done more would you be screaming they were "monopolistic"?

Try again. Without Microsoft's intervention, Toshiba would likely have reached a compromise with the Blu-ray camp, and this format war would have been averted. Once Blu-ray went with the open H.264 and Java formats, Microsoft wanted a format war in order to push their proprietary VC-1 and HDi formats, and HD-DVD was the vehicle by which to make that happen. But, their efforts were half-assed because HD-DVD was not their format. They'd rather dump resources into their money-losing ventures like the Xbox and Zune franchises.

As for trying to "steer" the industry towards a few industry codecs , whats wrong with that?
Why do we need ten different ways of doing something?

We don't need more formats. That's why the industry has embraced the open standard MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) media format. It's MS that tried to break this consensus by shoehorning yet another redundant format into the mix.

The superiority of VC-1 is well known BTW.

Says who? Microsoft?

VC-1 is a more highly compressed format. Might work for squeezing smaller file sizes for downloading, but not for maximizing picture quality, especially with a 50 GB disc size.

Microsoft saw two competing formats and went with the wrong one, simple as that.

Nope. They forced a format war when it appeared that the industry was about to reach a consensus that did not include their proprietary formats. Nearly all of the CE manufacturers, computer companies, and movie studios had already announced their support for Blu-ray and painted Toshiba into a corner. Microsoft only declared their HD-DVD support when virtually the entire industry had already aligned itself with Blu-ray. That does not signify MS choosing the "wrong" format, rather it demonstrates them trying to create a format war where one did not need to happen.

They probably thought cost would be a factor like its been in every format war so far,
and they guessed wrong..
Look at it this way, do you really think the boys who came up with Vista ARE REALLY CAPABLE OF SUCH far reaching "conspiracies"?

Of course they are. That's how they operate -- illegally use market power to bleed competitors, and tie the market to proprietary standards. Doesn't take a whole lot of brains to do that, just monopoly control over the market and the willingness to illegally use that market power to expand into new markets.

With the ridiculous profits from their OS and office application monopolies, MS can make all sorts of bone-headed moves and it won't impact them one bit. I mean, they've lost billions on their video gaming, online, and media device ventures. Just about any other company would have crashed and burned a long time ago with those kinds of losses

People who see such conspiracies are guilty of a logical fallacy.

And you on the other hand, are simply ignorant of how MS' role in the HD-DVD debacle is consistent with how they've operated in the past, and continue to operate. It's no conspiracy, since MS' illegal exercise of monopoly power has been documented and in the public record for the better part of two decades.

God help us if they HAD backed Blu Ray, all of you conspiracy wackjobs would be having a fit right about now, screaming about how micro is "taking over"!

Try Google searching "embrace extend extinguish" and you'll see why that would too have been cause for concern. It's suspicious anytime MS embraces an open standard, because you know that a proprietary variant is just around the corner. The difference is that the industry has wised up to these practices. The only "wackjob" would be someone who ignores MS' history.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Casual acquaintences or former lovers?

[GMichael]

Someone? Pass me the A1 please.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Sorry, he already gave the steak to me.

[GMichael]

Dang it!

Oh well. At least it got enjoyed by someone.

LJ? Can you fire up that grill?

[L.J.]

"Fire up the grill", "Sir T's steak"........come on guys, I open up the thread and I already have requests to cook.....DANG, give me my hat. I hope you guys like your meat well done



Pix...in advanced reply mode, you'll some icons. Highlight the text you wanna quote and click on the icon that says "wrap [quote] tags around slected text."

It should look like this when you do it right. Alot easier to read.

[Rich-n-Texas]

"Fire up the grill", "Sir T's steak"........come on guys, I open up the thread and I already have requests to cook.....DANG, give me my hat. I hope you guys like your meat well done



Pix...in advanced reply mode, you'll some icons. Highlight the text you wanna quote and click on the icon that says "wrap tags around slected text.

Great forward thinking there Chef!

Now... brace yourself!

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=L.J.]"Fire up the grill", "Sir T's steak"........come on guys, I open up the thread and I already have requests to cook.....DANG, give me my hat. I hope you guys like your meat well done



[QUOTE]Pix...in advanced reply mode, you'll some icons. Highlight the text you wanna quote and click on the icon that says "wrap

tags around slected text.

I'll do it my way if you dont mind.
AND "APPLE" puts out 300-400 buck computers all the time, they just charge a hellava lot more.

Microsoft conspriacy nutjobs are a lot like the jewish revolutionaries in the movie,
life of Brian

They talk about kicking out the Romans because after all , "what have they ever done for
us"?
Well, they built the roads, one replies.
Well, yeah, they did build the roads, but other than that...
Well , what about the aquaduct?
Yeah, I guess they did that too. And the schools, they built the schools.
But other than the schools, the roads, and the aquaduct , what have they done?
Nothing!

Same way with microsoft. We swim in a sea of windows based PCS', and if you have ever used one you can use another.
If you have never used a program the learning curve is lessened by the fact that all of the shortcut keys and functions will work just about like every other program.
In the early days it was chaos, standards were needed.
And its funny, either Jews, the "vast right wing conspriacy", or MICROSOFTS plot
to take over the world, these guys "can't make a decent OS", but they can keep this hugh complicated plot on track.
YOU try to build an OS that will work on every flavor of computer in the world.
If you are handy you can work on a PC, if you need a new one you can take parts off of the old one and save a bit in building the new one.
Thank IBM for a lot of this, but also give credit to micro for making an OS that will work with every incarnation.
And I am not even going into the fact that micro did nothing to stop MP3, EVEN THO IT WAS A RIPOFF FROM mpeg1.
Or Micros behind the scenes help with Divix, or a lot of other things that they never get credit for.
Do they try to acheive hegemony? SURE!
SO DOES EVERY OTHER BUSINESS.
What do you think this "format" war was about in the first place.
If you think any company in MICROSOFTS position wont take some advantage you are not living in the real world

[Woochifer]

I'll do it my way if you dont mind.
AND "APPLE" puts out 300-400 buck computers all the time, they just charge a hellava lot more.

Really? I didn't know that you've actually spec'd out and cost-compared the components on Macs to reach this conclusion! Why don't you list out those components and their retail prices so that we can all build out own $300 Mac equivalents (I'll even disregard the fact that Apple uses a more advanced EFI firmware on its motherboard rather than a typical PC BIOS)? Please do! Last thing I would want to do is call you out for LYING THROUGH YOU TEETH, right?

Microsoft conspriacy nutjobs are a lot like the jewish revolutionaries in the movie,
life of Brian

Uh, difference is that Life of Brian is a work of fiction, whereas Microsoft's anti-competitive behavior is fact, and documented in the public record using sworn testimony from company officials.

Figures that you would use a Monty Python reference, because your rants venture into that level of absurdity, albeit without the humor or coherency!

And its funny, either Jews, the "vast right wing conspriacy", or MICROSOFTS plot
to take over the world, these guys "can't make a decent OS", but they can keep this hugh complicated plot on track.
YOU try to build an OS that will work on every flavor of computer in the world.
If you are handy you can work on a PC, if you need a new one you can take parts off of the old one and save a bit in building the new one.
Thank IBM for a lot of this, but also give credit to micro for making an OS that will work with every incarnation.
And I am not even going into the fact that micro did nothing to stop MP3, EVEN THO IT WAS A RIPOFF FROM mpeg1.
Or Micros behind the scenes help with Divix, or a lot of other things that they never get credit for.

No one's faulting MS for creating standards via the Windows OS. Rather, the U.S. and E.U. court decisions against MS have entirely hinged on how MS uses their control over these standards to expand their market dominance into other markets. It's anti-competitive and illegal, and after court decision after court decision to that effect has gone against MS, they've had to settle numerous lawsuits (a de facto admission that they were not competing fairly or within the law) and agree to consent decrees in order to avoid more damaging penalties.

Do they try to acheive hegemony? SURE!
SO DOES EVERY OTHER BUSINESS.

Difference though is that "every other business" does not abuse a desktop OS monopoly to gain an unfair and illegal competitive advantage. MS used to claim that they had an internal "Chinese wall" separating their OS and applications divisions, and that they never gave any unfair advantages to their own applications to the detriment of competing applications. Yet, when put under oath during the U.S. anti-trust action, the MS officials admitted everything that competitors had suspected all along -- that MS' OS and applications divisions developed collaboratively to gain a competitive advantage, and that they purposely withheld information about the OS from other developers in order to ensure that competing products would not work optimally. That's not conspiracy, that's reality.

What do you think this "format" war was about in the first place.
If you think any company in MICROSOFTS position wont take some advantage you are not living in the real world

Yeah, and in the real world, that's why anti-trust laws exist, because monopolists like MS are willing to use their monopoly position to stifle competition and control the market.

[pixelthis]

Really? I didn't know that you've actually spec'd out and cost-compared the components on Macs to reach this conclusion! Why don't you list out those components and their retail prices so that we can all build out own $300 Mac equivalents (I'll even disregard the fact that Apple uses a more advanced EFI firmware on its motherboard rather than a typical PC BIOS)? Please do! Last thing I would want to do is call you out for LYING THROUGH YOU TEETH, right?



Uh, difference is that Life of Brian is a work of fiction, whereas Microsoft's anti-competitive behavior is fact, and documented in the public record using sworn testimony from company officials.

Figures that you would use a Monty Python reference, because your rants venture into that level of absurdity, albeit without the humor or coherency!



No one's faulting MS for creating standards via the Windows OS. Rather, the U.S. and E.U. court decisions against MS have entirely hinged on how MS uses their control over these standards to expand their market dominance into other markets. It's anti-competitive and illegal, and after court decision after court decision to that effect has gone against MS, they've had to settle numerous lawsuits (a de facto admission that they were not competing fairly or within the law) and agree to consent decrees in order to avoid more damaging penalties.



Difference though is that "every other business" does not abuse a desktop OS monopoly to gain an unfair and illegal competitive advantage. MS used to claim that they had an internal "Chinese wall" separating their OS and applications divisions, and that they never gave any unfair advantages to their own applications to the detriment of competing applications. Yet, when put under oath during the U.S. anti-trust action, the MS officials admitted everything that competitors had suspected all along -- that MS' OS and applications divisions developed collaboratively to gain a competitive advantage, and that they purposely withheld information about the OS from other developers in order to ensure that competing products would not work optimally. That's not conspiracy, that's reality.



Yeah, and in the real world, that's why anti-trust laws exist, because monopolists like MS are willing to use their monopoly position to stifle competition and control the market.

So what good are those "laws"?
Microsoft is still here arent they?
So either they arent breaking any "laws" or such laws are useless.
Actually this just shows how clueless you are, "antitrust and other laws are used by the big boys to keep the competition out.
A.T.T run the biggest monopoly in history, so did the post office, they were PROTECTED by the govt.
As for the rest of your delusional rant I am not a fly swatter.
But I will guarentee that Microsoft will be around a long time, probably a lot longer than you, or Apple for that matter

[Woochifer]

So what good are those "laws"?
Microsoft is still here arent they?

And MS is operating under a consent decree that they are now trying to convince the federal judges to let expire. No laws = no consent decree

Many of the architectural changes and options to change the program defaults that got introduced in XP SP2 are a direct result to those decrees. And the fact that they've been submitting formats like VC-1 and OOXML to international standards committees for approval rather than simply forking proprietary extensions into Windows, is yet another indicator that these anti-trust decisions have forced them to be more above board with other companies.

Monopolies are allowed to continue operating all the time. If you think the purpose of anti-trust laws is to put monopolies out of business, then that's yet another clueless assumption among many. Then again, you seem to think that your inane ramblings somehow have something to do with "free market" libertarianism. If I were a libertarian, I'd be embarassed to be associated with the nonsense you write.

So either they arent breaking any "laws" or such laws are useless.

If they weren't breaking the law, MS wouldn't have been forced to settle those myriad lawsuits with Novell, Sun, AOL/Netscape, et al, and the E.U. wouldn't have levied a $1.3 billion fine against them just this week for violating the terms of their 2004 consent decree with the E.U. Your ignorance is just making this all too easy.

Actually this just shows how clueless you are, "antitrust and other laws are used by the big boys to keep the competition out.
A.T.T run the biggest monopoly in history, so did the post office, they were PROTECTED by the govt.

Uh, wasn't AT&T broken up by a government anti-trust action more than 20 years ago? Pretty clueless to use an example that actually contradicts you!

And by definition, the USPS is exempt from anti-trust actions. If you want the USPS to be subject to anti-trust? Then get your congressman to change the federal charter.

As for the rest of your delusional rant I am not a fly swatter.

In other words, you can't prove any of my points wrong!

Of course, that's not surprising considering that you make all these claims about Macs, yet don't even know the first thing about them. Oh right, you don't have time to "play" with them, but got plenty of time to ramble on about them!

Are you now going to tell me again that Apple doesn't make its source code available?

I challenged you to list out a $300 Mac equivalent, since you claim that Apple makes $300 computers that they overcharge for. Yet, this is all you have to offer in response?!

Well, thank you for proving me correct -- you were indeed LYING when you made that statement. Now, will you admit this, or are you not man enough to admit you're FLAT OUT WRONG? C'mon, it's not a sign of cowardice to admit to your failings ... you can do it ... DOOOOOOOHHHHHH!!! You were so close!

But I will guarentee that Microsoft will be around a long time, probably a lot longer than you, or Apple for that matter

Nice little nonsequiter, but that's not the topic, now is it?

[kexodusc]

Pixie, my boy, you aren't making any sense at all...

Now I know you are really clueless, MICROSFT MAKES 30 BILLION A YEAR off of its operating system and thats not even a major income producer( preinsatalls on new computers is) If you think a 1.3 billion fine is more than a nuiscance to a company like Microsoft then you must still be in high school

Explain to us how preinstalls is excluded from the OS sales?

Second, MS doesn't make $30 billion a year...they're doing alright around the $12-14 B mark but let's not get excited and make up big numbers here, mmmkay...and that's off all operations, not just windows.

Don't downplay the significance of those fines either...MS stock has plummeted some 27% since November....most companies don't get fined 10-15% of their profits in a given year. $1.3 Billion in fines isn't exactly maximizing ROI for shareholders is it?

They'd better smarten up...bit by bit their core businesses are slipping through their fingers. They can't grow their core operations, so they're trying to expand into other industries with the likes of Xbox, Zune etc. People are wising up to their forced-obsolescence model too.

Investors certainly seem to have lost a bit of faith...things aren't going to get any easier for the bad boys from Redmond either.