HD-DVD vs Blue-Ray HD disc format.

[Smokey]

Hitting stores' shelves late next year will be two different kinds of high-definition DVD players. Each supports a different format; one is called Blu-Ray, the other dubbed HD-DVD, and their image quality is equivalent. Those encoded in the Blu-Ray format won't be compatible with HD-DVD machines and vice versa.

It's impossible to say which format will be the dominate one. Blue-Ray discs have more storage capacity--50 gigabytes, or enough for a high-definition feature film and plenty of extras. But, to manufacture them will involve the costly proposition of building the infrastructure from the ground up, with all new facilities and equipment.

HD-DVDs' 25 gigabytes of storage can also hold an HD feature film, but that's about it. They can, however, be made in the same plants that are now being used to make standard definition discs--a much cheaper alternative. "That means that they'll be cheaper for consumers, which will give HD-DVD the chance to get a lot of volume in the market more quickly," says GartnerG2 analyst Paul O'Donovan.

Companies that support HD-DVD are:

Toshiba, Paramount Pictures, Universal Studios, Time Warner studios, Warner Bros. and New Line Cinema.

Companies that support Blue-ray format are:

The Walt Disney, Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Phillips Electronics and Samsung.

As of now, whether HD-DVD or Blue-Ray will win out the other format is any body's guess. But HD discs will hit the store shelves by holidays 2005

[Ryanm]

Only 1 question, are either of the 2 formats backward compatible with current dvd technology? I would assume blue ray is since all it is, is a blue laser instead of a red, hence making the beam smaller, similar to the way dvd was to cd, i.e. a cd can be played in a dvd player but a dvd can't be played in a cd player.

[Smokey]

From what I have gathered (isn't Google awesome ), Blue ray will not be backward compatible since it is entirely different technology-and as you said, it uses blue laser instead of red which current DVD player use.

But HD-DVD will be backward compatible: you won't be able to play HD discs on your existing DVD player, but you will be able to play your DVDs on your new HD-DVD player.

From the look of it, HD-DVD might win the first battle of this HD format war. It is cheaper to make, and backward compatible.
But blue ray format have an ace in hole with its larger storage capability (up to 200 GB).

[Ryanm]

I dunno, I'm not ready to just drop my current collection of DVD's some of which I've gotten for the sole purpose of showing off my surround sound system.

[Smokey]

I dunno, I'm not ready to just drop my current collection of DVD's

If you think about it, you may eventually have to once HD DVD discs hit the market. Does what happened to VHS tapes ring any bells

[Geoffcin]

If you think about it, you may eventually have to once HD DVD discs hit the market. Does what happened to VHS tapes ring any bells

SACD to regular CD. It looks like SACD is not going to replace CD anytime soon, and my money is on DVD sticking around for a good decade or more with little chance of change.


The fact of the matter is that DVD's 480p is good enough for most people, as is CD. Guys like me will probably get HD-DVD as soon as the price breaks a bit, but I'm not your average Joe-video guy. Only if and when most people have big screens capable of 1080i, and are used to mostly HD broadcast will the HD-DVD take off, IMHO.

[Smokey]

Geoffcin

I see what you are saying. But I think the price of disc might be a major factor also. If DVD-HD disc piece are almost same as regular DVD disc, wouldn't you buy a HD disc instead of regular disc? And the fact that more people are into video than audio might put it in different category as the way CD vs SACD is going as of now.

But as you said, having a HD TV would be the deciding factor.

.....and by the way, marry Christmas

[Geoffcin]

Geoffcin

I see what you are saying. But I think the price of disc might be a major factor also. If DVD-HD disc piece are almost same as regular DVD disc, wouldn't you buy a HD disc instead of regular disc? And the fact that more people are into video than audio might put it in different category as the way CD vs SACD is going as of now.

But as you said, having a HD TV would be the deciding factor.

.....and by the way, marry Christmas

You know that they are going to ask a premium for these disks. In my opinion that's the real reason that SACD & DVD-Audio are/will never catch on in this current market. Consumers are not as stupid as the marketing geniuses think. They know that SACD, and DVD-Audio cost the same as CD/DVD to make a disk. They also know that the artists get the same royalties. The fact that SACD/DVD-Audio cost on average 50% more for the same recording is something that most people won't pay.

So we absolutly agree that if they charge the same for a better product then people will switch to the better product.

[shokhead]

I would think if either one would catch and hold on it would be SACD because a hybrid disc still plays 2 channel anywhere and a DVD-A just on a DVD-A player. This blue-ray and hd-dvd crap is the reason i stopped my interset in AV stuff for the last 5-7 years,all the changing at our cost.I'm happy with DVD's,CD's,SACD and DVD-A. My non-sonic hearing and just good enough eyesight only goes so far. If only i was a dog, the sky would be the limit on all this stuff. No limit= cost for us. If all this doesnt settle down for awhile and let everyone in and roll for awhile,i think a lot more will just say the hell with it. I'm old so what do i know. LOL

[ruadmaa]

From the latest news I've seen, the new High Definition disks will have Blue-ray technology on one side and standard DVD technology on the other. In other words, the best of both worlds on a single disk!!!!

[Smokey]

From the latest news I've seen, the new High Definition disks will have Blue-ray technology on one side and standard DVD technology on the other.

I also have heard that blue-ray disc will look more like a cartridge (like the one they used in StarTreck TV shows) than a disc. So I don't know putting each technology on a different side of a disc will be possible

[hermanv]

I also have heard that blue-ray disc will look more like a cartridge (like the one they used in StarTreck TV shows) than a disc. So I don't know putting each technology on a different side of a disc will be possible

Not likely. This is about money. If it were about what works best there wouldn't be the conflict. When Philips and Sony launched redbook CD they collected a royalty from everydisk sold. In the end, this added up to vast sums of money, and the checks are probably still coming in.

If you win a format war you get to collect these royalties. Remember DBX? It was IMHO a better technique than Dolby. Remember Beta, it was superior to VHS? Remember the Quad channel matrix vs discrete vs two other formats long forgotten? These wars were so bad no one won, but nobody would give up becasue greed is much more important to these companies than consumer satisfaction.

So dual format disks? I doubt it.

[ruadmaa]

Not likely. This is about money. If it were about what works best there wouldn't be the conflict. When Philips and Sony launched redbook CD they collected a royalty from everydisk sold. In the end, this added up to vast sums of money, and the checks are probably still coming in.

If you win a format war you get to collect these royalties. Remember DBX? It was IMHO a better technique than Dolby. Remember Beta, it was superior to VHS? Remember the Quad channel matrix vs discrete vs two other formats long forgotten? These wars were so bad no one won, but nobody would give up becasue greed is much more important to these companies than consumer satisfaction.

So dual format disks? I doubt it.

Below is a short except from a news article released several days ago. If you want to read the entire article go to Google news and do a search for blueray.

JVC on Friday showed a prototype of a disc that combines standard DVD and new Blu-ray technology for a combined 33.5GB of capacity
Everyone's vying to be the next DVD heir-apparent," said Jupiter Communications analyst Michael Gartenberg. "It's the 21st-century format wars and until all this stuff shakes out, consumers aren't going to buy anything. It's going to be a huge mess until consumers are able to sort out what the winning technology is."
A combined Blu-ray and standard DVD disc could help the situation. If content producers start distributing the combo discs, consumers might be more inclined to buy Blu-ray players.
"These are two radically different technologies, and it's not going to be feasible to build versatile players," Gartenberg said. "So this is something that could factor into consumer choices, but only if there's content in this format. That's what ultimately drives the sale."
JVC said it hoped the combo disc would also help spur more innovative content offerings and cut down on waste.
The combo "creates new possibilities for future software releases that take advantage of the large 33.5GB storage capacity by combining video content with commercials, music or games on a single disc", the company said in a release. "JVC also hopes that the new media format will contribute to resource and energy conservation by eliminating the need to create separate Blu-ray and DVD format discs."

[hermanv]

I stand by my position.

"Dual format I doubt it."

Showing a protoytpe to prove it's possible and selling a product in the marketplace are two very different things. Litigation happy corporations (the same people who demand tort reform - you can't sue me, but I can sue you) will be watching this closely.

I've been wrong before and I'll probably been wrong again but betting on cynicism and greed has good odds.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You know that they are going to ask a premium for these disks. In my opinion that's the real reason that SACD & DVD-Audio are/will never catch on in this current market. Consumers are not as stupid as the marketing geniuses think. They know that SACD, and DVD-Audio cost the same as CD/DVD to make a disk. They also know that the artists get the same royalties. The fact that SACD/DVD-Audio cost on average 50% more for the same recording is something that most people won't pay.

So we absolutly agree that if they charge the same for a better product then people will switch to the better product.

Geoff,
It may cost the same to make a SACD and DVD-A disk as it does a CD/DVD in terms of disk replication, and we know the artist get's paid the same royalties, but have you ever thought of the fact that it takes more time(and therefore money) to mix and master 5.1 versus 2.0? Also consider that there are only a few VERY good engineers out there(who require top dollar mind you) who do mixing and mastering in 5.1 well. I am certainly not ruling out corporate greed(which the music industry is full of) but these added costs certainly play a huge role in the final cost of a SACD or DVD-A title.

[Geoffcin]

Geoff,
It may cost the same to make a SACD and DVD-A disk as it does a CD/DVD in terms of disk replication, and we know the artist get's paid the same royalties, but have you ever thought of the fact that it takes more time(and therefore money) to mix and master 5.1 versus 2.0? Also consider that there are only a few VERY good engineers out there(who require top dollar mind you) who do mixing and mastering in 5.1 well. I am certainly not ruling out corporate greed(which the music industry is full of) but these added costs certainly play a huge role in the final cost of a SACD or DVD-A title.

That it would take longer to master an SACD disk vs. CD, the added cost would be minimal, on the order of a few cents per unit. Remember also that for the most part the engineers would be working with existing tapes, the cost of making the recording is already amortized so it would tend to cancel out the added cost.

No, I think this comes down to greed pure and simple. Who can forget the record companies unfairly charging more for CD than cassette tape, even when it cost MORE to make the cassette! Even though they won the litigation about this blatant overcharging, it's quite easy to see that they will rake the consumer for whatever they think they can get away with.

[Smokey]

No, I think this comes down to greed pure and simple. Who can forget the record companies unfairly charging more for CD than cassette tape, even when it cost MORE to make the cassette!.

What about cost of implementing a new technology. I mean somebody have to pay for all the research, new equipments and launching of a new products

[shokhead]

That it would take longer to master an SACD disk vs. CD, the added cost would be minimal, on the order of a few cents per unit. Remember also that for the most part the engineers would be working with existing tapes, the cost of making the recording is already amortized so it would tend to cancel out the added cost.

No, I think this comes down to greed pure and simple. Who can forget the record companies unfairly charging more for CD than cassette tape, even when it cost MORE to make the cassette! Even though they won the litigation about this blatant overcharging, it's quite easy to see that they will rake the consumer for whatever they think they can get away with.

I think we forget companies are there to make money,not to treat us fairly. Charge what they want,its up to me to pay or not. Do i want cd's to coat less,hell yes but do i expect them to because i want it to,nope. You're always going to find stuff cheaper if you shop around. I guy thats in a hurry will pay top dollar.

[Mr Peabody]

I believe the companies are doing a bad job of informing the public about the new technologies and how they work. Most people rely on the sales guy to steer them in the right direction and most of them don't know what's going on either. I recently upgraded a couple of my sets to HDTV and I had to research like hell to find out enough correct information to make a reasonably informed decision. I wasn't aware of HDMI until I started looking for a HDTV. No one here at AR seems to know much about it. I posted 2 threads on the HT forum looking for information on HDMI and up-converting with no replies. One post got a reply but it didn't answer or address my question. Another big question about Blue Ray and HD-DVD, are they going to be noticeably better than a HDMI connection with a signal upconverted to 720p or 1080i via the DVD player? Overhearing comments made by consumers while I was shopping in electronics stores I am absolutely convinced the public is confused and mostly misled with todays technologies. As an example I was in at least four different electronic chains and talked to other retailers on line and no one adequately explained how I get HD off air. From what I was told I thought you just plug the antenna in, your TV is HD so there. Well no, the TV searches out digital signals and puts them into memory. One of my stations here is channel 4, I would use 4 for SD and there is a separate channel 4.1 for HD. I just don't think consumers should be expected to pay this kind of money for products and have to learn what it is by trial and error. Errors can be expensive. Consumers are also going to grow very tired of building up video or audio libraries just to find out in a few years the format is obsolete.

It's cute to see Terrence playing his role as mix-master again. Upholding the honor of the INDUSTRY. The fact is I have read articles that criticize engineers handling of 5.1 music because all they are doing is using the old Quad ( 4 channel ) formula. There is actually very little true 5.1 mixes of music. I mean the disc may say 5.1 but a true 5.1 technique was not applied. So, maybe this shows that there really aren't that many good audio engineers after all.

[Smokey]

I believe the companies are doing a bad job of informing the public about the new technologies and how they work.

One big problem here might be that A/V industry is so much worried about piracy that any time a new [better] format arrive, it have to have some type of encrypting that might require new hardware or system.

Just look at what is happening with DVD-A or SACD format. At age where everything is going digital, the only way to hear these formats are only thru analog connections. Most receivers on the market today have 96/24 or 192/24 sampling capability, but it is useless since companies refuse to release their high resolution format for digital playback. And they cry foul when new format fail to take off.

Another big question about Blue Ray and HD-DVD, are they going to be noticeably better than a HDMI connection with a signal upconverted to 720p or 1080i via the DVD player?

Of course HD disc will look much better than upconverted signal. Remember the phrase "you can not do better than what the source feed you" very much apply here. So if the source is 480i or 480p, there is no way one can make it look like true 720p or 1080i disc format.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It's cute to see Terrence playing his role as mix-master again. Upholding the honor of the INDUSTRY. The fact is I have read articles that criticize engineers handling of 5.1 music because all they are doing is using the old Quad ( 4 channel ) formula. There is actually very little true 5.1 mixes of music. I mean the disc may say 5.1 but a true 5.1 technique was not applied. So, maybe this shows that there really aren't that many good audio engineers after all.

Its even cutier to see how well you have misrepresented my comments. I offered another perspective, a perspective that I know to be factual. I certainly charge more to do a multichannel mix than I do a stereo mix. I know it cost more to produce a multichannel mix than a stereo mix. It requires more time, energy, more knowledge of different types of processing software, and more hourly studio time.

Secondly, just because someone in the press critisizes an engineer, doesn't make the reporter correct. It's just another opinion, and like faces, butts, stomachs and mouths, we all have one. And by the way there is no such thing as true 5.1 technique. Mixing is like painting a picture, there is no right way of doing it, and in the end it is up to the producer and artist to approve it. The engineer is not always where you should point your finger, they don't work in a vaccum.(but in your infinite knowledge you probably already knew that..sarcasim off)

Before you open you mouth and critisize any engineers skills, perhaps you should check out how many mixes you have done yourself. If the number is zero, then perhaps until you have done even one, you should probably keep you uneducated comments in your back pocket. They are most helpful there than anywhere else.

If there is very little 5.1 music, blame the record companies. They are the ones that hire us, supervise us, approve the mix, and release it to the public. They are the ones that choose the music in their catalogs to be worked on.

Before you begin pointing fingers, critisizing, and trying to diminsh the skills of the engineers, get an education on how the process actually works, and how the engineer fits in that process. Audio journalist count on people just like you, long on mouth, short on education. That way they can say exactly what they want, and are assured that you will propagate it whether it is factual or not.

Lastly, if there is anyone harder on the music industry than I am, I want to meet them. I have riled against them sueing people for downloading, when they charge to much. I have riled against them for forcing us to push levels beyond what we feel comfortable with. I have blamed them for turning out poor product, how they have handled SACD and DVD-A formats, and the beat goes on. So take off the Mr Peabody interpretation filters, and actually read what I write. Thanks, have a good day, and a better tomorrow.

[Mr Peabody]

I was doing some reading on the two HD formats and learned that Blu-ray will not be in a cartridge. TDK came up with some type of coating that would protect the disc so a cartridge will not be necessary. The cartridge was to protect the disc because the blue ray will not read through finger prints and scratches as well as the red ray. Hoping this new protectant would be used across the board but corporate greed being what it is I have my doubts. Also they didn't say how but Blu-ray is going to be backward compatible with current DVD. It looks to me like most of the movie, computer and consumer electronics companies are behind Blu-ray. Some movie companies are refusing to be bound by either and keeping options open to do both. HD-DVD will definitely hit the market first.

The reviews I have read of the Toshiba SD-5970 HDMI DVD player are not good. If they want HD-DVD to get a jump start in the market they will have to tighten up quality control. A run of bad players would be enough to scare off would be buyers and give Blu-ray time to catch up.