Future of Circuitcity.

[mbbuchanan]

circuit city and bb and all other stores, on-line or on the street, are the middle man

[jamison]

maybe i should go into CC or BB tell them I want the $100 closeout special HD-DVD player and see if they tell me i need the $100 12 foot Monster brand HDMI cable for it. it ought to be good for a few laughs.

[emaidel]

This is an interesting thread on many levels. Onkyo, for example, has been selling Circuit City for decades. CC was, and likely still is, Onkyo's biggest customer, but has always been a trouble-spot for them: no retailer, or combination of retailers, was ever able to make up the volume of business CC provided Onkyo, but doing business with them was a "whole 'nuthu' story."

CC customarily used Onkyo as its "profit" line back in the 70's and 80's. All that meant, was Onkyo product wasn't discounted as heavily as the other brands CC carried. Of course, that was part of Onkyo's plan in the first place: sell tons of stuff to a huge retailer who maintains pricing on the product, and then you can sell to others without their worry that CC will undercut them. Unfortunately, that was too much of "having your cake and eating it too."

Insofar as online retailing vs. "brick and mortar" stores goes, this is a topic of endless debate. Online retailers have virtually no overhead whatsoever, whereas a store has tons: rent, heat, air conditioning, employee salaries, etc., etc. The only manner in which a store can compete is in terms of service, and if service is non-existent, as it often is in both CC and BB stores, well then, what's the point of going there in the first place?

Unfortunately, it's also the American consumer who is his own worst enemy. Many seem to feel the "right" to get everything at the lowest price, and to abuse the service offered by retailers. Spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions about a product, only to leave and go purchase that product online for less is a reprehensible characteristic of many an American consumer that hasn't changed since the heyday of mail order businesses. A retailer is justified in charging a higher price for the products he sells if he offers knowledgeable salespeople and quality service. It is NOT the right of a consumer to abuse that.

Not too long ago, I went into an athletic shoe store, recommended by my podiatrist. I waited patiently as a customer tried on numerous pairs of shoes, and asked the salesperson seemingly hundreds of questions about all of them, only to leave the store without buying anything. When the salesman came to help me (and he did help in many ways a DIY shoestore couldn't possibly help) I said, "After all that time, he didn't buy anything?" The salesman shrugged his head, and said, "he's going to buy it online for less."

This is nothing less than outrageous. The more people who continue to abuse the service offered by the few retailers left who provide that service, the less likely any of those retailers will be able to remain in business. I don't know about the rest of you, but I really don't want to spend the rest of my life selecting whatever I wish to purchase from a computer screen.

[audio amateur]

Those are good points Emaidel. It's definitely unfair on those who provide quality service. However, we are human beings in the end, and things like these will always be (unless you like to give your money away). Especially when you are tight on cash. I had this dilemma when purchasing the recent speakers i have a couple weeks ago. I was looking for good prices on the internet/ebay, and auditioning stuff at a local dealer, for a long time. I had been several times to the shop to listen to the stuff. I wasn't sure what I was going to do, but in the end I finally bought them in person. I figured they were relatively nice to me, price was down a bit from normal and I would get 5 year warranty.

[emaidel]

This has been a sore point for me for a very long time. Few things bothered me more than spending countless hours explaining how a product works to a potential customer, only to learn later that that customer bought the product elsewhere for less. In some instances, the customer actually had the temerity to return to my store and ask me how to use it! Needless to say, I wasn't particularly cooperative at that point.

Items such as laundry detergent, or a jar of peanut butter can be purchased solely based on price. No one has to explain how to use the detergent, or how to eat peanut butter (or, so one would hope!). When a live person is needed to help and advise a customer, that person needs to be properly compensated - not abused.

[Rich-n-Texas]

This is an interesting thread on many levels. Onkyo, for example, has been selling Circuit City for decades. CC was, and likely still is, Onkyo's biggest customer, but has always been a trouble-spot for them: no retailer, or combination of retailers, was ever able to make up the volume of business CC provided Onkyo, but doing business with them was a "whole 'nuthu' story."

I don't know about the old days of CC, but maybe people who bought Onkyo (and other) receivers were wowed by all the visible buttons and features and just assumed that since it's also quite pricey, what more needs to be said about it. I'd also tend to believe that auditioning rooms are a relatively new concept in the big box stores.

CC customarily used Onkyo as its "profit" line back in the 70's and 80's. All that meant, was Onkyo product wasn't discounted as heavily as the other brands CC carried. Of course, that was part of Onkyo's plan in the first place: sell tons of stuff to a huge retailer who maintains pricing on the product, and then you can sell to others without their worry that CC will undercut them. Unfortunately, that was too much of "having your cake and eating it too."

Insofar as online retailing vs. "brick and mortar" stores goes, this is a topic of endless debate. Online retailers have virtually no overhead whatsoever, whereas a store has tons: rent, heat, air conditioning, employee salaries, etc., etc. The only manner in which a store can compete is in terms of service, and if service is non-existent, as it often is in both CC and BB stores, well then, what's the point of going there in the first place?

The truth for me is, I do less and less shopping in the stores and more online. With few excepts, prices are better, NO SALES TAX in most situations, free delivery more often than not, and with the exception of a few of the bottom feeders (one in particular comes to mind), hassle free delivery. Most of the time that I go into a store is just to get my hands on the merchandise for a good looking over. But no, I don't think I'd buy my shoes online.

Unfortunately, it's also the American consumer who is his own worst enemy. Many seem to feel the "right" to get everything at the lowest price, and to abuse the service offered by retailers. Spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions about a product, only to leave and go purchase that product online for less is a reprehensible characteristic of many an American consumer that hasn't changed since the heyday of mail order businesses. A retailer is justified in charging a higher price for the products he sells if he offers knowledgeable salespeople and quality service. It is NOT the right of a consumer to abuse that.

Maybe these are the same people who just walked off the car dealer's lot frustrated by the fact that some slimey used car salesman tried to rip them off on the purchase of a lemon. Internal defense mechanism and all that. People talk about how well Crutchfield supports the products they sell so that would be a good example in justifying your argument.

Not too long ago, I went into an athletic shoe store, recommended by my podiatrist. I waited patiently as a customer tried on numerous pairs of shoes, and asked the salesperson seemingly hundreds of questions about all of them, only to leave the store without buying anything. When the salesman came to help me (and he did help in many ways a DIY shoestore couldn't possibly help) I said, "After all that time, he didn't buy anything?" The salesman shrugged his head, and said, "he's going to buy it online for less."

Well, the salespeople DO get a paycheck right? Eight hours is 8 hours?

This is nothing less than outrageous. The more people who continue to abuse the service offered by the few retailers left who provide that service, the less likely any of those retailers will be able to remain in business. I don't know about the rest of you, but I really don't want to spend the rest of my life selecting whatever I wish to purchase from a computer screen.

How do you think I got so fat?

[Groundbeef]

This has been a sore point for me for a very long time. Few things bothered me more than spending countless hours explaining how a product works to a potential customer, only to learn later that that customer bought the product elsewhere for less. In some instances, the customer actually had the temerity to return to my store and ask me how to use it! Needless to say, I wasn't particularly cooperative at that point.

Items such as laundry detergent, or a jar of peanut butter can be purchased solely based on price. No one has to explain how to use the detergent, or how to eat peanut butter (or, so one would hope!). When a live person is needed to help and advise a customer, that person needs to be properly compensated - not abused.

While I can appreciate your frustration, I do not completely share your viewpoint. Many times I think that retailers "over price" their advice. I've posted this example before, and I think that it still drives home a point.

When constructing my new home, I solicited bids from a local "A/V Pro" in the area. Carries top shelf equipment, most above my budget, but I can always aspire right? Anyway I wanted him to wire my home before sheetrock was hung. I also asked for a bid for equipment separate from the wiring work. This work would have entailed about 4-6 hours of labor, and approximatly 500' of wire. I talked and worked with the owner for about 3 hours on his site, and 30 minutes on site laying out locations, and the wire pulls.

Keep in mind that there was NO drywall up, only studs. I then got his "wiring" bid and it was approximatly $3000. For wiring. And to top it off, he was going to use standard 16g cable. Nothing fancy or shielded. The equipment was going to run an additional $2500 for a receiver, and cd player, and 6 speakers mounted flush in the wall.

I walked away, and did the wiring myself with THX certified wire (for what it was worth) that I purchased online for about $400.

The moral of the story? Advice is great. But don't confuse it with good service. If your prices are out of line for the service being provided, don't be suprised to find people leaving your store to purchse elsewhere.

[emaidel]

I think the last two posts trivialize what I've been trying to say. A salesperson doesn't just get "8 hours pay for 8 hours work," but is compensated for that which he sells. Most of the time a salesperson gets a base salary, and then an additional compensation, or commission, on his sales. It's just wrong for anyone to use much of that person's time and knowledge (assuming, of course, he's knowledgeable in the first place) and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. Many retailers spend countless hours training their sales personnel on how products work, and what makes one better than another. Those retailers also spend a considerable amount of their own money to purchase all the items seen on display (does anyone think the demo models are free?), and once the model is discontinued, the dealer has to sell off the demo units at a loss of profit.

Unfortunately, many online retailers use the investments of these retail stores to their own advantage: "shop around, ask questions, and then come to us." "Us" is usually a small room with a bunch of people sitting at computers, often with little or no knowledge of the products they have for sale. There is rarely a warehouse (another major expense for a "brick and mortar" retailer) as most of the time, the order is just sent off to the manufacturer, who then ships the product to the consumer directly. Of course, the ethics of the manufacturers who do this comes into question too, if they're trying to support both kinds of retailers.

Naturally, not all online retailers are this unsavory. Personally, I can't vouch highly enough for amazon,com, based on my experiences shopping with them. But amazon would never suggest spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions and then suggesting buying from them (amazon) for less.


Insofar as Onkyo and CC, I worked for Onkyo from 1980 -1983, and know that most other electronics manufacturers would have given their left arms to do the business we did with CC at the time. The CC customers who purchased Onkyo product weren't necesessarily "wowed" by bells and whistles, but by the product's performance. Believe me, when it came to "bells and whistles," Onkyo fell rather short compared to most others.

Onkyo was positioned as CC's "premiere" line, and rightfully so: it was better in almost all respects than the Pioneer, JVC and other competing products CC carried at the time.

A retailer has a right to charge a reasonable amount more than someone else if he provides some sort of service that justifies it. The key word of course, is "reasonable."

[Groundbeef]

I think the last two posts trivialize what I've been trying to say. A salesperson doesn't just get "8 hours pay for 8 hours work," but is compensated for that which he sells. Most of the time a salesperson gets a base salary, and then an additional compensation, or commission, on his sales. It's just wrong for anyone to use much of that person's time and knowledge (assuming, of course, he's knowledgeable in the first place) and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. Many retailers spend countless hours training their sales personnel on how products work, and what makes one better than another. Those retailers also spend a considerable amount of their own money to purchase all the items seen on display (does anyone think the demo models are free?), and once the model is discontinued, the dealer has to sell off the demo units at a loss of profit.

And I think you are over sensitive to the role a retail salesperson plays in modern retailing. While I agree that salesperson is important in helping a consumer choose a product, it doesn't give the retailer the "right" to charge more for a commodity product. Lets get real here. If the consumer in your example at the shoe store was buying a pair of athletic shoes, its a commodity item. If he were buying a pair of Itailan Leather Loafers handmade by the salesman, thatsa different story. If the customer can save $15 on the internet, then the BM store should work to be more efficient in its operations, or offer different services unavailable online. If you are selling the SAME commodity product, don't expect to sell for OVER the market price simply because you have a "salesman" waiting on customers.

And as far as the "demo" unit example goes, I'm calling BS on your theory. Demo units, if used correctly are just that. A unit to showcase the capabilities of the actual working product. If a retailer squirls them away in a dark corner, gathering dust, then maybe they won't work out. But if its part of an attractive display, and showcased well, it should drive traffic to BUY the unit. In this way, the retailer would sell more units than otherwise w/out the demo. And in the end, if he (the retailer) sells the "demo" unit at less than retail, the gained margin should more than offset the "demo" cost. Furthermore, the retailer should be working out an allowance from the mfg, or work out other methods of consideration to balance out the "cost" of the unit. If they are doing neither, then shame on them.

Unfortunately, many online retailers use the investments of these retail stores to their own advantage: "shop around, ask questions, and then come to us." "Us" is usually a small room with a bunch of people sitting at computers, often with little or no knowledge of the products they have for sale. There is rarely a warehouse (another major expense for a "brick and mortar" retailer) as most of the time, the order is just sent off to the manufacturer, who then ships the product to the consumer directly. Of course, the ethics of the manufacturers who do this comes into question too, if they're trying to support both kinds of retailers.

There is a myth that online retailing is "costless". On the surface, there may be less fixed cost in terms of real estate (buildings), but there are costs. Warehouses need to be maintained, logistics need to be worked out (shipping/recieving/returns/warrenty). Not all of these "e-tailers" are drop shippers, and many are simply extensions of real-world retailers.

Manufacturers owe nothing to retailers. They are looking to sell their goods. If an online outlet can sell 10X the volume of a poorly run BM operation, who are you to judge them? I would argue, it is the retailers responsiblity to ensure they are sellling the most in the most efficient method, with the lowest cost to consumers. Its not the job of the MFG to make sure the retailer is profitable.

This is why some retailers have gotten smarter (and Mfg's) and are using different models for different stores. Chances are, the same TV (model) at CC is different from the model at BB. It might not be much, or even a cosmetic difference, but it is different. Then you can charge a differential cost. But if you are selling the same widgets as X, I don't care if your salesman have 100 hrs of training. I'll go for the lower cost.

Naturally, not all online retailers are this unsavory. Personally, I can't vouch highly enough for amazon,com, based on my experiences shopping with them. But amazon would never suggest spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions and then suggesting buying from them (amazon) for less.

Please. Amazon doesnt' care where you normally buy from. Do you think that Amazon gave a rats' ass that you used to buy books from Barnes & Noble? No. They started their business by selling a commodity (a book) for less than the BM store. And now they are doing it for everything else. If its the same model/book/whatever, they sell it for less.

A retailer has a right to charge a reasonable amount more than someone else if he provides some sort of service that justifies it. The key word of course, is "reasonable."

No. The good retailers either don't charge for "service", they make it available everyday, 365, and charge the same price for the same good. Thats what makes them "better".

If you want to charge more, don't sell the same stuff as every other swingin' d!ck on the market. Sell something unique, or different.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I haven't read all of GB's response yet, but just off the top of my head, I agree with his assesment of your position here: you are waaay overstating the salesperson's role in this context emaidel.The retailer doesn't care about anything else but the bottom line. Period. If the sales flunkies are all huddled in a corner picking their noses, and the retailer's staying in the black, why does he care about *salesperson* abuse?

I don't think I've trivalized anything. I go on the belief that in this greed driven society, its me against the corporate giant, and above all, I'll spend my hard-earned dollars the way I see fit. I couldn't care less if the interface unit's feelings get hurt. It's MY money!

[emaidel]

If the consumer in your example at the shoe store was buying a pair of athletic shoes, its a commodity item.

In the inestimable words of my favorite TV judge, Judge Judy, "Baloney."

In the example I used, I had been sent to this particular store because the salespeople themselves were runners, and were highly educated as to the effects of pronation and other aspects of shoe design. They very carefully had me stand so they could observe the stance of my legs/feet, and then walk to and fro. Then, they recommended several different pairs of shoes for me to try on, and observed the manner in which they fit my feet. They also did this knowing I needed to wear a supplied arch support due to having contracted plantar fasciitis. This entire procedure took about a half an hour, and I left the store, quite satisfied with a pair of shoes that fit me perfectly. The man I mentioned received precisely the same treatment from these kind folks, spent about 45 minutes with them, and then walked out. If you don't see something wrong with that picture, then I'm just not getting through.


And as far as the "demo" unit example goes, I'm calling BS on your theory.

Almost all manufacturers in the audio industry provided lower prices for demo units, as those would always have to be sold down at, or below cost once the product's lifespan ended. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, and it provides a service to the consumer. Online retailers don't incur any such expenses.



There is a myth that online retailing is "costless".

Not "costless," but far "less costly."




.

At this juncture, let us agree to disagree. We are on polar opposites on this one, and my feelings and beliefs are based on the 14 years I spent in retail, as well as the following 25 working for different manufacturers.

[Groundbeef]

At this juncture, let us agree to disagree. We are on polar opposites on this one, and my feelings and beliefs are based on the 14 years I spent in retail, as well as the following 25 working for different manufacturers.

Well, with all due respect, I think we can do that.

While I don't want to come off as "anti-salesman" I think that times have changed quite drastically since your stint on the front lines.

Assuming you've just retired, that would put you in retail back in 1968-1982. At that time Sears was doing better, Wal-Mart was just a "rural" retailer with KMart laughing at its smaller, less effective competition.

I agree that the service you got at the shoestore was excellent. And, I'm glad that you bought your shoes there. But as for the other customer? Is it the fault of the customer that he wants a lower price? No. Lots of specialty retailers have these difficulties. That is why they need to offer something that isn't easily duplicated/purchased elsewhere. Belive it or not, shoes are a commodity item. If your shoestore had specialty running shoes that only they carried (and others like them) it would be much harder for customers to "vote with their feet".

For example, where I live, we have a specialty bike retailer called BikeTek. My wife and I bought both of our bikes there for a hefty premium over the box stores. We could have paid much less, but wouldn't have gotten the better parts and individual attention.

However, for my kids we shopped them, but ended up buying at ToysRUs. Why? Well for starters the bikes were very expensive. The lowest priced girls bike at the shop was just over $115. Helmets (Bell Safety Approved!) started @ $40.

ToysRUs had ASSEMBLED bikes starting at $35.00. Helmets (Bell Safety Approved) @ $15.00. And there was NO service.

Guess what. We bougt the kids bikes at ToysRUs. For a short term use (1 or 2 summers at the most) why pay the premium? Was BikeTeks service so great it demanded a $100 premium? No. They informed me that they could go cheaper, but they didn't want to lower their image. BTW, I do go there to get the kids bikes repaired. Frankly, the service department told me thats where the money is anyways. New tires, pedals, and whatever else a kid may break.

Anyway, to the point. I don't mind paying for great service. However, service alone is NOT enough to justify charging more for an item that can be bought at any outlet. Online or otherwise.

[JSE]

Anyway, to the point. I don't mind paying for great service. However, service alone is NOT enough to justify charging more for an item that can be bought at any outlet. Online or otherwise.

I think it goes both ways depending on the service and product.

For example.........

There is a Lowes, Home Depot and a neighborhood hardware store Ace all within about 5 minutes of my house. Ace is a much smaller store that has higher prices than Lowes and HD. However, I can walk into a Lowes and a HD with a question and 9 times out of 10, I leaving these stores with the same question still unanswered. The sales people there have no freaking clue. In contrast, I can walk into Ace and within the first 10 seconds a nice salesperson asks me if I need any help. I tell them what I need or ask them my question and I get answers. Correct answers at that! Every floor salesperson is there knows their stuff. If I don't know how to do something, they will take the time to explain if fully and supply me with whatever is needed. Now granted they charge a higher price for the same products that Lowes and HD carry but they also supply knowledge and far superior service. The Ace is my neighborhood is packed all day everyday with people. They do a huge business and know most of the regulars. If I can buy it at Ace I do even at the higher price. The only time Lowes and HD get my business anymore is if they carry something I can't get at Ace.

JSE

[Groundbeef]

I think it goes both ways depending on the service and product.

For example.........

There is a Lowes, Home Depot and a neighborhood hardware store Ace all within about 5 minutes of my house. Ace is a much smaller store that has higher prices than Lowes and HD. However, I can walk into a Lowes and a HD with a question and 9 times out of 10, I leaving these stores with the same question still unanswered. The sales people there have no freaking clue. In contrast, I can walk into Ace and within the first 10 seconds a nice salesperson asks me if I need any help. I tell them what I need or ask them my question and I get answers. Correct answers at that! Every floor salesperson is there knows their stuff. If I don't know how to do something, they will take the time to explain if fully and supply me with whatever is needed. Now granted they charge a higher price for the same products that Lowes and HD carry but they also supply knowledge and far superior service. The Ace is my neighborhood is packed all day everyday with people. They do a huge business and know most of the regulars. If I can buy it at Ace I do even at the higher price. The only time Lowes and HD get my business anymore is if they carry something I can't get at Ace.

JSE

Thats great. My neighbor is a District Manager for Ace. I'll let him know you like Ace.

And I think your example is great. I think that the level of service that you are expecting, matches what you are willing to pay. In this case, quite frankly you are paying minimal for the service you are getting. Got a plumbing question? PVC pipe might be $.02/ft cheaper at Lowes.

Need a wrench? The Cobalt brand at Lowes might be $1.25 less.

But I would be willing to bet that if the prices jumped up to 20% higher you would reevaluate your purchase habits.

And, I haven't been into Ace in the last couple of months, but I'm pretty sure they haven't changed their slogan to "Come Into Ace. We have GREAT Service, so we Charge More for It".

I think the expectation of Ace customers is that they get great service, and its price differential is minimal at best.

[emaidel]

I can walk into a Lowes and a HD with a question and 9 times out of 10, I leaving these stores with the same question still unanswered. The sales people there have no freaking clue. In contrast, I can walk into Ace and within the first 10 seconds a nice salesperson asks me if I need any help. I tell them what I need or ask them my question and I get answers. Correct answers at that!
JSE

I too lament the preponderance of Home Depot and Lowe's stores over the scarcity of Ace Hardware stores. When I lived in Littleton, Colorado, there was an Ace I went to just about all the time, in prefence to either Home Depot or Lowe's, and for the precisely the same reasons as you.

Where I live now there are no Ace stores nearby, but if there were, I'd go there anyday over Home Depot and Lowe's, if for no other reason than not having to walk five miles from one end of the store to another to find the correct light bulb for the ceiling fan I just purchased..

[pixelthis]

I haven't read all of GB's response yet, but just off the top of my head, I agree with his assesment of your position here: you are waaay overstating the salesperson's role in this context emaidel.The retailer doesn't care about anything else but the bottom line. Period. If the sales flunkies are all huddled in a corner picking their noses, and the retailer's staying in the black, why does he care about *salesperson* abuse?

I don't think I've trivalized anything. I go on the belief that in this greed driven society, its me against the corporate giant, and above all, I'll spend my hard-earned dollars the way I see fit. I couldn't care less if the interface unit's feelings get hurt. It's MY money!

And this is why you'll miss out on a lot of what this hobby IS.
That "interface unit" is a human being dillweed.
If there is such a thing as reincarnation you must be what they call a young soul.
Half the fun of buying gear is BUYING GEAR.
I sat for several hours and talked to the salesman who sold me my B&W speakers.
I have bought a great great deal of gear from a local private dealer, yamaha, klipsch,.
a 65" mitshubishi, I PAY A LITTLE MORE BUT I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.
They are not "interface units" but friends.
there is a new store in Birmingham, audio volo, havent been able to get up there yet,
but I am sure I will love the experience.
And I am sure, that if you went, you would miss the point of a store like this ENTIRELY.
People who think the price is everything will get what they want eventually.
A world of big box stores manned by bored teenagers, online sales for most everything.
But hopefully there will always be a place for a high end audio shop, or for that matter a
tailor for those who aspire to more than J.C Penny, or a place where you can get a good bottle of wine.
At least I hope so

[Groundbeef]

And this is why you'll miss out on a lot of what this hobby IS.
That "interface unit" is a human being dillweed.
If there is such a thing as reincarnation you must be what they call a young soul.
Half the fun of buying gear is BUYING GEAR.
I sat for several hours and talked to the salesman who sold me my B&W speakers.
I have bought a great great deal of gear from a local private dealer, yamaha, klipsch,.
a 65" mitshubishi, I PAY A LITTLE MORE BUT I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.
They are not "interface units" but friends.
there is a new store in Birmingham, audio volo, havent been able to get up there yet,
but I am sure I will love the experience.
And I am sure, that if you went, you would miss the point of a store like this ENTIRELY.
People who think the price is everything will get what they want eventually.
A world of big box stores manned by bored teenagers, online sales for most everything.
But hopefully there will always be a place for a high end audio shop, or for that matter a
tailor for those who aspire to more than J.C Penny, or a place where you can get a good bottle of wine.
At least I hope so

That was 8 hours of hell he will never get back.

Again, it's one thing to get great service. I'm all about the great service. But please don't try to tell me that it's worth a 20% premium on THE SAME PRODUCT.

People that think everything should cost more, pay more. Again, somehow you have gotten caught up in the commodity conundrum. If everyone is selling the same crap, why pay more if some guy helps you for 10-15 minutes. If he is selling me something that I can ONLY get from him, or something that he personally made, ok, then maybe.

[Rich-n-Texas]

And this is why you'll miss out on a lot of what this hobby IS.
That "interface unit" is a human being dillweed.

Let's see... What did Smokey say in his first post:

Since they got bad publicity last year for firing their best employees for cheaper labor, it seems they been going down the hill ever since.

Big difference between talking to a knowledgeable sales rep and "cheaper labor" wouldn't you say?

If there is such a thing as reincarnation you must be what they call a young soul.

Dillweed, yuppie, marketing type... yada yada yada. I wonder what I'm going to be tomorrow.

Half the fun of buying gear is BUYING GEAR.

Point being? I buy gear, clothes, food, music...etc. But I do try to spend wisely. Don't you? ( ) <== Fun!

I sat for several hours and talked to the salesman who sold me my B&W speakers.

I think beef gave the appropriate response to this one.

I have bought a great great deal of gear from a local private dealer, yamaha, klipsch,.
a 65" mitshubishi, I PAY A LITTLE MORE BUT I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.

Your soooo wonderful, and really full of yourself ya know?

They are not "interface units" but friends.

Pix, you know dam well that friends can be bought. Please. I don't consider CC sales reps anything more than an interface between the corporation and my wallet.

there is a new store in Birmingham, audio volo, havent been able to get up there yet,
but I am sure I will love the experience.
And I am sure, that if you went, you would miss the point of a store like this ENTIRELY.

Maybe you should go re-read the thread I started about auditioning receivers. My trips to the higher end stores pretty much quashes this laimbrained entry. I was in this HT store as well, and I talked to the reps for a good half-hour about, among other things, Yamaha receivers and their integrity in the marketplace: http://www.star-power.com/index2.html

People who think the price is everything will get what they want eventually.
A world of big box stores manned by bored teenagers, online sales for most everything.
But hopefully there will always be a place for a high end audio shop, or for that matter a
tailor for those who aspire to more than J.C Penny, or a place where you can get a good bottle of wine.
At least I hope so

Which brings us back to the original topic. SO, was all this blabbering even necessary?

[Mr Peabody]

GB, I don't see your logic here, you think a B&M store should sell for the same price as an internet retailer? That's impossible. On one hand the whole thread is overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the service at BB and CC but you fail to see why. It takes money to pay a decent salary and to keep knowledgeable staff. Depending on where you buy, a website may not have anyone to help, you just go onto the site, read the blurp and pick your product and click. How can you expect a B&M store to pay a staff and over head of a store and sell for the same price as an internet site? There's no way an internet site has near the expense of a B&M store.

To show service costs money, let's take a look at just internet, I've seen people complain and post gripes about the higher prices at Crutchfield. I've never had a problem buying from them, each purchase has been great. They offer life time tech support, phone lines for product help and a host of other services. These things cost. Look at Rich, he bought from the internet, thought he was saving some bucks, I believe it was a fairly good amount too. I haven't kept up but I don't know if he has ever even received his item yet. I'm certain this would not have happened at Crutchfield, and if by some chance it did they would have straightened it out pronto.

The point is if you want good service, it costs. A retailer internet or otherwise needs to make a reasonable profit from an item in order to deliver service. This is why Mom&Pop had to charge more than BB and CC. Mom&Pop would exchange a problem item on the spot. BB and CC don't want you back if you have a problem. AND, in order for them to afford helping with a problem they HAVE to sell you an extended warranty. The extended warranty gives them the profit that Mom&Pop was asking for. I'd personally rather pay Mom&Pop the extra money up front and honest rather than having BB and CC sales persons try to extort it out of me. In addition, that would have kept Mom&Pop in business who cared about my business.

I don't want to say I'm not guilty either, I bought my HDTV from Crutchfield after shopping B&M stores. One of the stores had commission sales staff whom I took their time as well. Here's why, same Toshiba DLP, Crutchfield, free shipping, free stand; B&M, no stand and would charge me to deliver it 20 to 30 miles when Crutchfield had to deliver cross country. I forget the actual price, it was either the exact same or Crutchfield might have even been slightly cheaper. With the shipping and free stuff I figure the two retailers had as much eating into profit. I give the B&M store a chance to match or work a deal, they didn't want to do anything, so they lost a sale. Crutchfield even shipped the stand ahead so I could have it together and in place when the TV arrived.

You want to receive a fair days wages for your work don't you? I don't know what you do but your company makes money doing something or you wouldn't have a job. If people took your time and left to get what you provide from some one else, you wouldn't have a job long. Most internet sales outlets can sell for less profit and lower prices because they have less overhead, just a fact. Crutchfield is an exception because they provide services most other internet store, or most B&M, don't provide.

[Mr Peabody]

Who's responsible for "interface unit"? I like that.

[Woochifer]

That was 8 hours of hell he will never get back.

Again, it's one thing to get great service. I'm all about the great service. But please don't try to tell me that it's worth a 20% premium on THE SAME PRODUCT.

One thing to keep in mind though is that most products sold at retail stores are authorized vendors. Can't say the same thing about the online vendors. With many of them, they can't even guarantee that the product you get is factory sealed or even spec'd for North America (if that's where you live). Plenty of stories over the years on this and other boards of consumers who got stuck with a b-stock unit or a gray market unit with a power supply spec'd for a different country or other problems with repairs or returns, etc.

An authorized product with a full manufacturer's warranty is not the same thing as a product coming from an unauthorized vendor with a warranty that the manufacturer will not honor. I recall that Denon basically allowed customers who bought from unauthorized websites one repair call, and after that the customer was on their own. Yamaha would enforce their warranties by not allowing their service centers to work on unauthorized units, even if the customer offers to pay for the repairs.

It comes down to risk and reward. The upside by going with an unauthorized vendor is obviously the lower price, but the downside manifests itself if things go awry (i.e., you decide you don't want the product, if the product breaks down, etc.). Personally, I think that the customer should be more willing to negotiate with a retail store. At the very least, people should give the store the right to first refusal. If the price is still too high, then they're free to go somewhere else. As others have said, where do you go to try things out when the local audio stores go out of business?

People that think everything should cost more, pay more. Again, somehow you have gotten caught up in the commodity conundrum. If everyone is selling the same crap, why pay more if some guy helps you for 10-15 minutes. If he is selling me something that I can ONLY get from him, or something that he personally made, ok, then maybe.

This is a topic that's gone around many times on this board, and it always comes down to those who feel that it's the birthright for the customer to obtain product practically at cost at one extreme, and those who feel that retail pricing should reflect the total overhead cost involved in supporting a product both at the time of sale AND after the sale.

I think you're trivializing the role of the retailer -- it's not just the sales person, but the physical place where a customer can try a product out, the warranty support, the place to return a product if you don't like it, the place to borrow a demo unit for home trial, etc. You're looking at a product strictly as a commodity, but there's always more to something than just the commodity itself. That's basic economics, every transaction has a value added component to it, and that will vary depending on which vendor you go with. If you're willing to dispense with the value added, then you'll obviously place all value strictly in the price -- e.g., most shoppers won't just go with a commodity without some guarantee that the product will work, and that there's recourse if it doesn't. Others expect a higher level of service, a longer duration for the return policy, etc. None of that comes for free.

[Groundbeef]

One thing to keep in mind though is that most products sold at retail stores are authorized vendors. Can't say the same thing about the online vendors. With many of them, they can't even guarantee that the product you get is factory sealed or even spec'd for North America (if that's where you live). Plenty of stories over the years on this and other boards of consumers who got stuck with a b-stock unit or a gray market unit with a power supply spec'd for a different country or other problems with repairs or returns, etc.

An authorized product with a full manufacturer's warranty is not the same thing as a product coming from an unauthorized vendor with a warranty that the manufacturer will not honor. I recall that Denon basically allowed customers who bought from unauthorized websites one repair call, and after that the customer was on their own. Yamaha would enforce their warranties by not allowing their service centers to work on unauthorized units, even if the customer offers to pay for the repairs.

It comes down to risk and reward. The upside by going with an unauthorized vendor is obviously the lower price, but the downside manifests itself if things go awry (i.e., you decide you don't want the product, if the product breaks down, etc.). Personally, I think that the customer should be more willing to negotiate with a retail store. At the very least, people should give the store the right to first refusal. If the price is still too high, then they're free to go somewhere else. As others have said, where do you go to try things out when the local audio stores go out of business?



This is a topic that's gone around many times on this board, and it always comes down to those who feel that it's the birthright for the customer to obtain product practically at cost at one extreme, and those who feel that retail pricing should reflect the total overhead cost involved in supporting a product both at the time of sale AND after the sale.

I think you're trivializing the role of the retailer -- it's not just the sales person, but the physical place where a customer can try a product out, the warranty support, the place to return a product if you don't like it, the place to borrow a demo unit for home trial, etc. You're looking at a product strictly as a commodity, but there's always more to something than just the commodity itself. That's basic economics, every transaction has a value added component to it, and that will vary depending on which vendor you go with. If you're willing to dispense with the value added, then you'll obviously place all value strictly in the price -- e.g., most shoppers won't just go with a commodity without some guarantee that the product will work, and that there's recourse if it doesn't. Others expect a higher level of service, a longer duration for the return policy, etc. None of that comes for free.

Contrary to what many of you might belive, I do very little shopping online. About the only thing I buy online are parts to build a computer, and thats about every 3 years. I buy from Newegg.com, the prices are right, shipping is cheap, and I get the info I need on parts to buy from my gaming rags (thats what I center my computer buying parts needs around).

Other than that, I buy from B&M stores. BB, the petstore, Target, Meijer, and the grocery store.

I just don't buy the argument that people "need" to pay for service. Thats exactly WHY people buy online. Why "pay" for service. To me, the service provided in the store is the carrot being used to buy a product. It should not be a precourser for the retailer to charge me more for a product that can be bought eleswhere for less. (all other things being equal).

To me, this argument makes as much sense as needing to pay for a product, BEFORE discussing your options with a salesman.

I did also enjoy your comments on gray market merchandise. In electronics this is a real concern, and should make consumers wary when purchasing online.

[Mr Peabody]

GB, discussing your options is a service provided by that retailer. If a product does not have enough profit margin then how do you propose the sales person gets paid? You can't have it both ways, either you buy from a serviceless warehouse, let's say, for example 10% over cost, or you buy from a full service retailer who may have to charge 20% over cost in order to be able to afford offering service. The reason BB and CC got popular was the lower prices offered but in order to do that something had to give and it was service thus we have BB and CC as it is described here.

Unfortunately in today's society people seem to think that experience and knowledge has no dollar value. You can see it as corporations let go their more experienced workers for cheaper labor right out of school. For some reason they can't see the damage that causes because all they look at is the bottomline.

Take the shoe scenario Emaidel was talking about, the point is, the guy could not have gotten his shoes from the internet by himself. He could have gotten a pair of shoes but he wouldn't have known which ones were best for him. That knowledge and time the sales person spent helping him has a monitary value and the fact that people no longer recognize that is alarming and the real reason BB, CC, and many other retailers, are what they are.

[bobsticks]

I agree with emaidel and I agree with Groundbeef...and that drives me crazy. It also tells me that there is a point which has perhaps not been well articulated in this thread. That is that there are levels of service and each level has it's own intrinsic value or utility or lack thereof.

A while back I auditioned a Krell SACD Standrad from Audio Solutions, my local boutique. The boys knew the specs by memory, and indeed whether the unit passed straight DSD or not, and recommended to me a home audition. I was prepared to lay down a credit card or pay a security deposit or whatever, but before I knew it they'd boxed up that tank, it was in my hot little paws and I was on my way home. You can't honestly believe that I would buy online if I saw the same unit a few hundred dollars less...a thousand maybe, but even then I'd feel guilty.

OTOH, if I go into Best Buy the odds are even that I'll have to explain the difference between HDMI 1.1 and 1.3 to the salesperson. If I go into Circuit City odds are almost certain that I'll have to explain to the salesdufus where the frontdoor is. You don't get to charge me extra for apathy and idiocy. If the corps. wanna fire all the good people I'm in favor of making them pay for it.

Clearly a determination must be made in each instance. Good service and knowledgeable employees should be rewarded, just as I'll vote with my wallet against cell phones on the salesfloor and other rude behavior.

Just my .02.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Who's responsible for "interface unit"? I like that.

That would be me. Pix didn't like it too much though.