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Blockbuster to favor Blu-ray HD discs over DVD format
LOS ANGELES - Blockbuster Inc. will rent high-definition DVDs only in the Blu-ray format in 1,450 stores when it expands its high-def offerings next month, dealing a major blow to the rival HD DVD format.
The move, being announced Monday, could be the first step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.
Blockbuster has been renting both Blu-ray and HD DVD titles in 250 stores since late last year and found that consumers were choosing Blu-ray titles more than 70 percent of the time.........
http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6164939
Found this at another forum and thought I'd post it here. Any thoughts?
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Originally Posted by L.J.
Found this at another forum and thought I'd post it here. Any thoughts?
Yeah, glad I didn't buy that HD-DVD player Friday - I found one that early Toshiba model on sale for $215. Looks like those things are gonna be orphans soon enough.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.J.
LOS ANGELES - Blockbuster Inc. will rent high-definition DVDs only in the Blu-ray format in 1,450 stores when it expands its high-def offerings next month, dealing a major blow to the rival HD DVD format.
The move, being announced Monday, could be the first step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.
Blockbuster has been renting both Blu-ray and HD DVD titles in 250 stores since late last year and found that consumers were choosing Blu-ray titles more than 70 percent of the time.........
http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6164939
Found this at another forum and thought I'd post it here. Any thoughts?
Not sure if anyone here remembers the thread where I said this awhile back, but this doesn't surprise me too much. Two reasons: PS3 and appeal factor. People tend to gravitate towards things that are eye-appealing and the color 'blue' is known to stimulate more attention than 'red' when it comes to advertising. As silly as it sounds if you walk down an aisle filled with both formats you can check to see where you are drawn in as a test. Also, PS3, whether it is dominating xBox or not, is definitely drawing more people towards Blu-ray.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Two reasons: PS3 and appeal factor. People tend to gravitate towards things that are eye-appealing and the color 'blue' is known to stimulate more attention than 'red' when it comes to advertising. As silly as it sounds if you walk down an aisle filled with both formats you can check to see where you are drawn in as a test.
This is a major reason why most major operating systems come stock with blue window borders/backgrounds etc. Doesn't hold true when it comes to cars, for some reason.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Also, PS3, whether it is dominating xBox or not, is definitely drawing more people towards Blu-ray.
This is part of the reason too. Though the biggest reason IMO is the studio support. Fewer people will support a crippled format and I don't doubt for one minute that customers who are adopting this early were smart enough to do their homework...well the ones that have bought BluRay at least...
When you think about it...it's amazing that BluRay is winning a war of a mostly homogeneous product despite a terrible early price disadvantage on both the hardware and the software.
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Don't underestimate the power of the Disney...
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
This is a major reason why most major operating systems come stock with blue window borders/backgrounds etc. Doesn't hold true when it comes to cars, for some reason.
This is part of the reason too. Though the biggest reason IMO is the studio support. Fewer people will support a crippled format and I don't doubt for one minute that customers who are adopting this early were smart enough to do their homework...well the ones that have bougth BluRay at least...
When you think about it...it's amazing that BluRay is winning a war of a mostly homogeneous product despite a terrible early price disadvantage on both the hardware and the software.
Disney titles are ALWAYS strong sellers and the fact that Disney went with Blu-ray and although they only have a few titles out at the moment, they are going to be a strong factor later on in the war, especially once they start releasing their vault!
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Somewhere I remember Robert DeNiro saying...
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
This is a major reason why most major operating systems come stock with blue window borders/backgrounds etc. Doesn't hold true when it comes to cars, for some reason.
...that geniuses will choose green cars and I haven't seen many of those on the road lately. Maybe it's just me, but I've always associated blue with a follow-the-leader lemming-type crowd. Blue may be "pretty" but it's not really a thinking man's color, I think. Then again, maybe that's why marketers and advertising firms are pushing blue? It's the mainstream that does most of the buying & consuming (I guess geniuses know better).
Even with a/v equipment, I tend to see blue digital displays at Sharper Image, BB, K-mart, and Costco, but the higher end stuff has green or red displays (Think CJ, Arcam, Krell, etc). I'm sure there will be exceptions. PS Audio seems to like blue, but then again they are also making a big push into the mainstream with cheaper China produced goods sold through Crutchfield (another blue-camp stalwart).
Anyhow, back to the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD debate:
- What is NetFlix' take on this? (What do you know, they are in the red camp). If they were to go the other way, it would definitely add fuel to this fire.
- Will Blockbuster (blue camp) be selling all their HD-DVD stock at bargain prices?
- Was Toshiba (red camp) stock affected by the Blockbuster announcement?
- Any preliminary Walmart HD-DVD sales figures (blue company with red product - this may not work)?
Just my own observation in my own neck of the woods, but it certainly seems like the store shelves are about 75% Blu-ray, now. I'm still waiting for regular DVD prices to drop, but somehow that kind of effect is not yet trickling down.
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[QUOTE=nightflier]...that geniuses will choose green cars and I haven't seen many of those on the road lately. Maybe it's just me, but I've always associated blue with a follow-the-leader lemming-type crowd. Blue may be "pretty" but it's not really a thinking man's color, I think. [QUOTE]
WTF? Based on what? Besides, Al Gore invented the internet and discovered Global Warming, and he likes Blue way more than Red. :biggrin5:
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Then again, maybe that's why marketers and advertising firms are pushing blue? It's the mainstream that does most of the buying & consuming (I guess geniuses know better).
Even with a/v equipment, I tend to see blue digital displays at Sharper Image, BB, K-mart, and Costco, but the higher end stuff has green or red displays (Think CJ, Arcam, Krell, etc). I'm sure there will be exceptions. PS Audio seems to like blue, but then again they are also making a big push into the mainstream with cheaper China produced goods sold through Crutchfield (another blue-camp stalwart).
I like Purple.
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- What is NetFlix' take on this? (What do you know, they are in the red camp). If they were to go the other way, it would definitely add fuel to this fire.
Dunno, but the #1 product in one industry supporting the #1 product in another kinda makes what the #2 players do irrelevant.
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- Will Blockbuster (blue camp) be selling all their HD-DVD stock at bargain prices?
At 13% of their stores or so...
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- Was Toshiba (red camp) stock affected by the Blockbuster announcement?
No, it actually went up. But keep in mind the royalties to be gained off BluRay or HD-DVD licensing are insignificant next to the revenue stream and profits to be earned from selling the hardware itself. DVD showed us that. An overwhelming victory for HD-DVD would probably have about as much impact on Toshiba's stock. Either that or the market is interpreting this as a sign Toshiba will focus on something more favorable to shareholders?
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- Any preliminary Walmart HD-DVD sales figures (blue company with red product - this may not work)?
I'm sure Wooch or someone will chime in with that stuff. I haven't seen BluRay or HD-DVD at the Wal-Mart's I've been in.
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Just my own observation in my own neck of the woods, but it certainly seems like the store shelves are about 75% Blu-ray, now. I'm still waiting for regular DVD prices to drop, but somehow that kind of effect is not yet trickling down.
It's about 50/50 in the few I checked out, though it wasn't that long ago HD-DVD was up roughly 75/25 or so. I suspect as BluRay releases more new release movies, shelving might reflect that. I'm sure a 50% price cut in the player will help year 2 sales as well.
Man, I just looked at some old threads we had way back. A lot of us really thought HD-DVD was going to win because of the price advantage and being first to market (me included). Isn't looking so good right now.
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The real impact my still lay with Wal-mart/Sam's Club/Costco, If they solely sale Blu-Ray then you really can call it a knock out on Toshiba HD. Blockbuster can tilt the scales, but they are not the world leader they once were, when they killed off most of the mom and pop video stores.
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I think Blockbuster to some degree is just following the market trends. They've already done the HD test marketing, and found that Blu-ray rentals accumulate about the same market share that they get with sales (roughly a 2-to-1 split). Blockbuster has never been a trend setter. They took their time before fully supporting the DVD format, it took a long time before they supported widescreen as well, and as far as I know, their stores never supported Betamax or Laserdisc. Obviously, they now see enough of an installed user base to expand on their support for the new HD formats, but going forward with only one format is very much in line with how they do business.
As kex said, at this point it's very much about the studio support. I read that so far this year, standalone HD-DVD players are outselling the Blu-ray players by ~60% to 40%. And with the PS3 sales nosediving in a hurry, it's not necessarily the hardware that has helped maintain Blu-ray's market advantage.
Even on the title selection, the number of titles that Blu-ray has in release is not that much greater than HD-DVD. But, what Blu-ray has is a huge advantage in getting the most recent big box office draws released on the same date as (or very close to) the DVD release, and that comes down to studio support. With Blockbuster so dependent on new releases for their revenue, going with Blu-ray was the more logical choice.
I would also see if there's anything else going on between the lines, like any revenue sharing deals that they might have struck with the studios, particularly those that are exclusive to Blu-ray. During the 90s, Blockbuster squeezed most of the mom & pop video stores out of business partly by entering into revenue sharing arrangements with the studios, where Blockbuster would obtain as many copies of certain new releases as their stores wanted in return for a percentage of the rental revenue. More recently, they've been promoting selected new releases that can only be rented at Blockbuster for a certain time. Would not surprise me at all if the Blu-ray studios dangled a few carrots to help convince Blockbuster to support the format exclusively (or if Blockbuster provided their own carrots to convince the Blu-ray studios to give them certain exclusivity or revenue sharing in return for going Blu-ray only).
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Personally...
I prefer Blu-ray and that is without having a ton of experience with both. I like saying "Blu-ray" and it sounds like Sting-ray, which is also cool, except when it killed Steve Irwin. I hate saying H-Dee-Dee-Vee-Dee and for some people this doesn't really mean much, they just think it's still a DVD. In fact, to confuse matters more there was a time, and still some titles do this, where on the packaging specs it will say 'remastered in High-Definition' on regular DVD's, which confuse some people into thinking that it is now an HD title. I recall Columbia/TriStar doing this quite a bit.
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"Revenue sharing" to me sounds like that when this all shakes out, us consumers are once again in for a reaming, so to speak.
I just joined Blockbusters Total Access deal; don't know how long they've been offering Blu-ray titles (blue's my favorite color, for those who care), but they total 270 if I'm looking at the 27 pages right. That's a lot IMO.
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Another factor that seems to be overlooked is that most consumers don't know what the advantages of hi-def are. Better picture quality is all that most people I talk to in the store can think of. Interestingly, better sound isn't all that important to 90% of the consumers out there, and so it really comes down to what people are getting for the extra expense. I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm just saying that most people who don't own a hi-def player have no idea what the format will offer. Likewise, people who do own them aren't bowled over and shouting the virtues of hi def from their rooftops (don't know why, but it's scaring people away from taking a side in the format war).
If I was a studio pushing a hi def format, I'd work something into the contract with Blockbuster to advertise the virtues of the new format. I think that would go a whole lot further than just offering the disks and asking people to buy into something new they hardly understand. Maybe giving Blockbuster a slew of players and screens showing pre-edited demos of all the features during scenes of the latest block buster flick? If that's too expensive to implement, how about large color displays showing the differences and new features in easy to understand charts? Remember those life-size Luke Skywalker cutouts that we used to take pictures with at the entrances of video rental stores? Now picture The Fantastic 4 holding up TV screens showing off the many benefits of the new format.
On that note, I think that Toshiba is doing a better job of marketing its format in places like BB, CC, Walmart, etc. I don't know why, but it just seems like Toshiba is trying a bit harder and this may be why the individual player sales are higher. Maybe it's just SoCal, but I see more Toshiba HD-DVD ads than Sony Blu-ray ones. That said, both companies could do more and to me it seems like it's a half-hearted effort all around, almost as if the companies themselves are not entirely behind their respective formats. Maybe they expect the virtues of the formats to carry the sales figures, but personally, I think they are under-estimating what average consumers know about them.
Just out of curiosity, are there any TV ads about either format yet? That would be the place I'd focus on, especially on HD channels. Consider this ad during the season finale of Lost: "Like seeing this in your cable company's HD format? Wait until you see it in Blu-ray - Get all the performance out of your new TV with the best it can do: Sony the best picture, period." (interchange HD-DVD/Toshiba, if you want).
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Originally Posted by nightflier
- What is NetFlix' take on this? (What do you know, they are in the red camp). If they were to go the other way, it would definitely add fuel to this fire.
Actually, Netflix is neutral, as they already stock Blu-ray titles. Blockbuster's website also carries both HD formats, and will continue to do so.
http://www.netflix.com/Genre?sgid=24...r=LhcGenre2444
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Originally Posted by nightflier
Will Blockbuster (blue camp) be selling all their HD-DVD stock at bargain prices?
Nope. The posted article says that the 250 stores that were used to test market both formats will continue to stock HD-DVD titles, as will Blockbuster's website. All that Blockbuster's announcement means is that the 1,450 new stores (this represents about 1/4 of their stores) slated to carry HD discs will only support Blu-ray.
Fast forward to this time next year, and if HD-DVD's market share erodes further, then you might see those particular Blockbuster stores (and several other outlets) clearing out their HD-DVD inventory. This is no different than when video stores began selling off their Betamax inventory in the mid-80s. (Around that time, VHS had 3-to-1 market share advantage over Beta)
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Originally Posted by nightflier
Any preliminary Walmart HD-DVD sales figures (blue company with red product - this may not work)?
That info's probably more tightly guarded than the CIA. WalMart does not participate in any of the retail sales tracking services like Nielson Videoscan, and neither does Target. Most of the other major retailers do participate, and bits and pieces of that information's widely available.
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Originally Posted by nightflier
Just my own observation in my own neck of the woods, but it certainly seems like the store shelves are about 75% Blu-ray, now. I'm still waiting for regular DVD prices to drop, but somehow that kind of effect is not yet trickling down.
Doubtful that regular DVD prices will push back any further than they already have, unless the format gets supplanted and stores discontinue carrying DVDs altogether. It's pretty much a stable mature market where the new releases command the higher price points, and older titles and/or older editions get marked down (stores like BB and Fry's have weekly sale prices as low as $5). If you're willing to wait a few months before buying a new DVD release, the prices do go down.
Since you're down in the OC, you might want to check out DVD Planet's retail store over in Huntington Beach sometime. Biggest selection you'll find anywhere, competitive prices, and a lot of interesting items make it onto their clearance shelf.
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Originally Posted by nightflier
On that note, I think that Toshiba is doing a better job of marketing its format in places like BB, CC, Walmart, etc. I don't know why, but it just seems like Toshiba is trying a bit harder and this may be why the individual player sales are higher. Maybe it's just SoCal, but I see more Toshiba HD-DVD ads than Sony Blu-ray ones. That said, both companies could do more and to me it seems like it's a half-hearted effort all around, almost as if the companies themselves are not entirely behind their respective formats. Maybe they expect the virtues of the formats to carry the sales figures, but personally, I think they are under-estimating what average consumers know about them.
Actually, I think Toshiba finally wised up and started playing hardball. Until the past couple of months, Toshiba had been getting out maneuvered at every step. Best Buy and all those other retailers will gladly provide the prime floor space and display areas to any company willing to pony up. Toshiba's the lone player actively peddling HD-DVD, while Blu-ray has multiple manufacturers in its corner. The sheer quantity of Blu-ray player models on the market assures that Blu-ray will occupy a certain amount of shelf space. Toshiba has to be more aggressive to maintain visibility, and it seems that they've been going in that direction. Universal has been helping with an aggressive HD-DVD release schedule. In the end though, I don't think it will be enough to keep the format afloat. Blu-ray continues to command the most in-demand titles, and I don't think that will be lost on those consumers ready to buy in the next few months.
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It's interesting that the cheaper player isn't winning. Does this say that the HD disc war will not be decided by "Average Joe"? Is Blu ray's movie selection that much better that some one would pay almost 4 times the price for the player? Maybe people just think Blu ray is the way to go because of sheer volume of support. Also, Toshiba has gained some respect with their DLP's but I believe they still have a entry level rep where companies like Panasonic and Sony carry more weight in the quality department. Although Sony is slipping there.
Some one mentioned sound quality, is either HD disc format going to give me any better sound over DVD with out upgrading my gear?
I haven't rented anything from Blockbuster in well over a year. I quit when they started doing those gimmick promotions with all the small print. I bought into one of those when they first started, the guy did not fully explain everything, once I got out of that I never went back. I just pick up a movie or two from Hollywood when I get time to watch. I really enjoyed Blockbuster actually, their employees seemed to be energetic and helpful, the selection was great. I don't kknow why they felt they had to start running deceptive promotions. I really digressed.... strike this last statement from the record.
Bayliff, wack his P P
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Originally Posted by nightflier
Another factor that seems to be overlooked is that most consumers don't know what the advantages of hi-def are. Better picture quality is all that most people I talk to in the store can think of. Interestingly, better sound isn't all that important to 90% of the consumers out there, and so it really comes down to what people are getting for the extra expense. I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm just saying that most people who don't own a hi-def player have no idea what the format will offer. Likewise, people who do own them aren't bowled over and shouting the virtues of hi def from their rooftops (don't know why, but it's scaring people away from taking a side in the format war).
If I was a studio pushing a hi def format, I'd work something into the contract with Blockbuster to advertise the virtues of the new format. I think that would go a whole lot further than just offering the disks and asking people to buy into something new they hardly understand. Maybe giving Blockbuster a slew of players and screens showing pre-edited demos of all the features during scenes of the latest block buster flick? If that's too expensive to implement, how about large color displays showing the differences and new features in easy to understand charts? Remember those life-size Luke Skywalker cutouts that we used to take pictures with at the entrances of video rental stores? Now picture The Fantastic 4 holding up TV screens showing off the many benefits of the new format.
On that note, I think that Toshiba is doing a better job of marketing its format in places like BB, CC, Walmart, etc. I don't know why, but it just seems like Toshiba is trying a bit harder and this may be why the individual player sales are higher. Maybe it's just SoCal, but I see more Toshiba HD-DVD ads than Sony Blu-ray ones. That said, both companies could do more and to me it seems like it's a half-hearted effort all around, almost as if the companies themselves are not entirely behind their respective formats. Maybe they expect the virtues of the formats to carry the sales figures, but personally, I think they are under-estimating what average consumers know about them.
Just out of curiosity, are there any TV ads about either format yet? That would be the place I'd focus on, especially on HD channels. Consider this ad during the season finale of Lost: "Like seeing this in your cable company's HD format? Wait until you see it in Blu-ray - Get all the performance out of your new TV with the best it can do: Sony the best picture, period." (interchange HD-DVD/Toshiba, if you want).
Thank you for bringing up a very interesting angle on things. I am often amazed at how people are mainly interested in the picture size, resolution, etc, but couldn't care less about the sound quality delivered. It's astonishing to me that people in general desire for a pristine picture with crappy sound. It makes no sense, as Larry the Cable Guy would say...it's like whiping before pooping.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Thank you for bringing up a very interesting angle on things. I am often amazed at how people are mainly interested in the picture size, resolution, etc, but couldn't care less about the sound quality delivered. It's astonishing to me that people in general desire for a pristine picture with crappy sound. It makes no sense, as Larry the Cable Guy would say...it's like whiping before pooping.
I'm not surprised that the sound quality isn't a major selling point. Quite honestly, the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Lossless DVD-A or whatever isn't nearly as big as most of us here (present party included) would make it out to be. We have a way of, err...exaggerating the little things in the world of audio.
Considering the visual sense is primary on the vast majority of the population, such a noticeable improvement (especially on larger screens) in the video quality area is a natural to be the biggest selling feature.
Just for giggles - I wonder, if I walked into a room and heard a 5.1 sound track, I doubt I could tell right away if it was Dolby Digital, DTS, or something hi-rez without doing an A/B and spending a bit of time. I'd probably be an above average guesser, and I'm smart enough to focus on a few limitations of Dolby, DTS, etc, but there's some good sounding mixes out there that'd make it pretty tough. (hey, I might try this experiment soon).
I'm pretty sure on a 42" screen or larger I could spot HD pretty fast.
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ditto Kex, and remember many are still just getting into surround sound. When it comes to running wires along baseboards, ceiling creses, in wall installations..etc many are just not up for it, and the wife/kids factor plays a role also. So if you can't hide/blend in the wires then you may lose the battle of having a 5.1 setup. Or go for the wireless (subpar at best) option.
For me its always been about the sound. That was why I used to like going to the theater (when I was a Kid) was for the sound experience. The feeling of being sucked into the movie. I can handle watching a average movie and enjoy it very much if the sound mix is done real good. And only watch a good film once if the sound mix is poorly done. When SW EP1 came out I flock to see it like everyone else. The story line was so so acting the same, but what caught me was the sound mix on the pod race. I could not wait to get my own copy and play that part over and over again and that was VHS in DPL and it only got better when it was release on DVD.
I tell people all the time, the sound is what really makes the movie, and not always the big explosion, but the small little things: a dog barking off camera and making you turn your head to see, or water dripping from behind and you thinking you may have a leak in your house.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
It's interesting that the cheaper player isn't winning. Does this say that the HD disc war will not be decided by "Average Joe"?
The "average Joe" won't decide the format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Rather, they will have the final say over whether either of those HD formats eventually supplants the DVD. IMO, that's the real format war (if it ever gets that far).
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Is Blu ray's movie selection that much better that some one would pay almost 4 times the price for the player? Maybe people just think Blu ray is the way to go because of sheer volume of support.
It's not really the number of titles -- Blu-ray has only a slight advantage over HD-DVD in the # of titles in release -- so much as which titles are in release that IMO will help Blu-ray maintain its advantage. If you look at the top 20 grossing movies from 2006, 19 of them are out or coming out on Blu-ray, while only 12 of them are coming out on HD-DVD. Blu-ray doesn't have that many more titles available, but it has more of the titles that consumers want. The market is driven by new releases, and the only thing stopping Blu-ray from winning the format war outright is Universal's exclusive HD-DVD support. (And among the major studios, Universal had the weakest box office performance last year, which further erodes the potential customer base for HD-DVD) The instant that Universal goes neutral (i.e., starts releasing titles in both formats), it's over.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Some one mentioned sound quality, is either HD disc format going to give me any better sound over DVD with out upgrading my gear?
On Blu-ray, you can potentially get upgraded sound quality because most of the titles so far have been using the higher bitrate 640k version of Dolby Digital (which doesn't have the aggressive high frequency channel joining that's used in the lower bitrate 448k and 384k tracks found on DVDs). All DD decoders are capable of decoding the 640k bitstream, but certain receiver models (including at least one recent Denon model) have had trouble reading the signal. In addition, the uncompressed PCM soundtracks can get output through the multichannel analog outputs.
With HD-DVD, I believe that all of the standalone players include built-in audio decoders that can decode the Dolby Digital Plus (basically the same audio resolution as the 640k DD signal, but adds support for discrete 6.1 and 7.1 output), and the lossless Dolby TrueHD tracks (same resolution as uncompressed PCM) and pass them through the multichannel analog outputs.
On both formats, the DTS-HD tracks will get downsampled to the 1.5k "core" DTS bitstream if a DTS-HD decoder isn't present. Not as high a resolution as lossless PCM, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS-HD, but certainly a higher resolution than the 754k half-bitrate DTS tracks typically used on DVDs.
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
I'm not surprised that the sound quality isn't a major selling point. Quite honestly, the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Lossless DVD-A or whatever isn't nearly as big as most of us here (present party included) would make it out to be. We have a way of, err...exaggerating the little things in the world of audio.
Considering the visual sense is primary on the vast majority of the population, such a noticeable improvement (especially on larger screens) in the video quality area is a natural to be the biggest selling feature.
Just for giggles - I wonder, if I walked into a room and heard a 5.1 sound track, I doubt I could tell right away if it was Dolby Digital, DTS, or something hi-rez without doing an A/B and spending a bit of time. I'd probably be an above average guesser, and I'm smart enough to focus on a few limitations of Dolby, DTS, etc, but there's some good sounding mixes out there that'd make it pretty tough. (hey, I might try this experiment soon).
I'm pretty sure on a 42" screen or larger I could spot HD pretty fast.
Blu-ray has definitely been pushing the uncompressed PCM angle, though they haven't been telling the public that a lot of these PCM soundtracks are still downsampled from higher resolution masters (e.g., all of Sony's releases are 16-bit, while Fox has been going with 24-bit soundtracks; and so far none of the Blu-ray PCM tracks have used the 96 kHz sampling rate).
You're right in that the perceived sound quality improvements due to resolution can get quite exaggerated. I think that DD is easier to differentiate because of how the channel joining affects the surround imaging, but that's not going to be as easy to pick out in a dealer demo room that might have a lot of background noise, no calibration, and improperly aligned speakers.
OTOH, going from 480p to 1080p on the video side is very easy to pick out, and easy to demonstrate even in a warehouse-like environment like Best Buy or Costco. Anybody passing by with a shopping cart can see how good a movie looks in HD. Demonstrating the merits of higher audio resolution takes a lot more effort, and is not readily discernable through casual listening in a less-than-optimal room.
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Originally Posted by recoveryone
I tell people all the time, the sound is what really makes the movie, and not always the big explosion, but the small little things: a dog barking off camera and making you turn your head to see, or water dripping from behind and you thinking you may have a leak in your house.
You're so right about that. Those subtleties that you cite are often underappreciated, but they add so much to the immersive effect that a movie can provide. Master and Commander is very frequently cited as a reference quality soundtrack, and while the explosions in the battle scenes are great demonstration pieces, to me the best aspect of that soundtrack is with how it conveys a sense of space. When the scene takes place under the deck, the sound conveys the tightness of that space, and on above deck, you can sense the spaciousness. Very impressive all the way around.
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Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.
And PSP3 is actually canabalizing player sales in blu-ray, most will buy a psp just
because they are cheaper than a player( but the new 600 player will change this)
I hope blu wins, because its the more advanced format, and if we must have a hd disc, lets go with the more advanced.
AND heres another thing, with all of this great sound how about some concert discs?
Or music video collections?
Or decent classics that arent computer generated "blockbusters"
Anyway great toshiba lost, I hate em, everything I had tosh either broke, malfunctioned
or underperformed or was poorly designed:16:
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This is news to me
Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.[/QUOTE]
How do you figure that?
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Originally Posted by pixelthis
I hope blu wins, because its the more advanced format, and if we must have a hd disc, lets go with the more advanced.
Well, not if they continue to downsample the sound (according to Wooch). I've also read that HD-DVD has an edge on sound quality.
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Originally Posted by pixelthis
...AND heres another thing, with all of this great sound how about some concert discs? Or music video collections?
I think here again, HD-DVD has greater potential because of the Universal alliance and their desperation to compete. Sony has a good catalog too, but I think (and this is just speculation) that they will also be late to the party with music and concert disks.
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Originally Posted by pixelthis
Anyway great toshiba lost, I hate em, everything I had tosh either broke, malfunctioned or underperformed or was poorly designed:16:
Whoa, there. I've had the opposite experience. I think this is ultimately a matter of product lines and models (probably affected by a specific part supplier), rather than systemic in a company.
I think the best resolution is not a defeat of one side or the other, but rather some kind of truce. Consumers would fare much better if the formats worked things out. What if Universal or Microsoft refused to throw in the towel and doggedly refused to offer Blu-Ray solutions, for example? This would ultimately hurt the consumers more than anyone else.
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I don't think there can be a truce.I think that at somepoint Universal will decide to start putting out films in both formats and then it will be over.If all films are available in one format then there is no need for the other format.
bill
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Originally Posted by pixelthis
Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.
Not at all true. Blu-ray's releases comprise more recent box office hits, and those tend to have much greater appeal to renters than the library releases that typify more of HD-DVD's output. If HD-DVD "caters to renters," then why would Blockbuster support a format that "caters to collectors"? And why would the 70% market share for Blockbuster's Blu-ray rentals be nearly identical to the 67% market share that Blu-ray sales have claimed so far this year?
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Originally Posted by nightflier
Well, not if they continue to downsample the sound (according to Wooch). I've also read that HD-DVD has an edge on sound quality.
Can't really generalize since the choice in the lossless sound format is a title-by-title choice (if the title even includes a lossless track in the first place). Can't compare the Warner titles because a lot of their early Blu-ray titles did not include lossless tracks, while the HD-DVD equivalents did.
The Blu-ray titles from Fox and Disney thus far have primarily used a 48/24 PCM resolution, which is identical to the resolution used with most HD-DVD lossless tracks (using either TrueHD or DTS-HD). Only those few HD-DVD titles that use Dolby TrueHD at 96/24 resolution can claim higher resolution. So far, Sony has stuck with 48/16 resolution. Thus far, more Blu-ray titles have gone with uncompressed PCM because the format's larger disc capacity allows for it and most Blu-ray players don't yet decode TrueHD or DTS-HD.
The latest firmware updates though with most Blu-ray players now allow for a TrueHD or DTS-HD signal to get transcoded to PCM, which theoretically at least, maintains the full resolution of the original signal. The only reason really to go with TrueHD or DTS-HD is to save on disc space and/or accommodate a higher resolution than the disc space would otherwise allow with an uncompressed PCM track.
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Originally Posted by nightflier
I think here again, HD-DVD has greater potential because of the Universal alliance and their desperation to compete. Sony has a good catalog too, but I think (and this is just speculation) that they will also be late to the party with music and concert disks.
Strange as it may seem, Universal's music division is actually a member of the Blu-ray Association. I haven't checked on whether they have actually released any titles, but this seems like a rather bizarre corporate disconnect within Universal. I saw the Universal Music Group logo pop up while watching a Blu-ray demo reel, and I had to double-check this because it otherwise made no sense when I saw it.
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.
And PSP3 is actually canabalizing player sales in blu-ray, most will buy a psp just
because they are cheaper than a player( but the new 600 player will change this)
I hope blu wins, because its the more advanced format, and if we must have a hd disc, lets go with the more advanced.
Oh, I don't know about this at all....
HD DVD has *a lot* more of the older classic movies that should appeal to collectors like myself. Casablanca, for one... I have found so far Blu-ray has focused on many of the present day action oriented films that are of very little interest to me and many other collectors (not to imply that collectors all collect as I do). I do think that while to me, at least, the quality of the Blu-ray releases is nowhere *near* as good as HD DVD, Wooch's point about new releases driving rentals, etc. is well taken and would indeed explain Blockbuster's recent move to major Blu-ray support. You could say that HD DVD is appealing to collectors, but Blu-ray is looking at the new release blockbuster rental market, and that is where a lot of the money is to be made.
I prefer the HD DVD strategy as a classic film collector, but I think the Blu-ray new release "blockbusters" strategy is working pretty well.
---Dave
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As long as companies want to make money, they'll sell classic movies. Think it's just a matter of time until you find a lot of your favorite old films on BluRay, and probably more on HD-DVD if they stick around long enough.
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Let me say I am not a huge classic movie collector but I am the type of person who actually paid more money for the B&W version of the Cristmas Carol, opposed to the cheaper colorized version. This is on VHS. On the other hand, I don't see why anyone would rush to buy old movies on a HD format. If my VHS version of the Cristmas Carol breaks or gets noisy, I may replace it some day but I have to wonder how much better B&W could look in HD. I don't even want to buy DVD's that aren't 5.1 although I do have some because I didn't have the movie or it was a great price. I know I'm a minority but I just refuse to duplicate movies when a new format comes out. I really didn't buy many movies until DVD came along. Actually, if I buy movies at all it has to have an entertainment value that will allow me to be able to watch again in the future. This tends to be the action/Sci-Fi type for me. I guess that puts me in the BR camp.
I believe if Blockbuster starts renting HD movies it will give the HD players a surge. I remember when DVD first came out, first you had one row, then several shelves in the row, then DVD and same title VHS side by side, then VHS disappearing. Movie rentals in my opinion is the hurdle and after getting over that, they're off! If my local Blockbuster starts renting BR discs I really feel me being drawn by the s300. If I view movies I want to purchase I will probably just start a list and wait to buy on one of the HD formats.
What would keep things whirling as Blockbuster decided to do BR and Hollywood or some other large chain decided to do HD-DVD. What if HD-DVD campt discounted HD movies to the rental chain, maybe as an exclusive, to make it worth their while to jump in.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Let me say I am not a huge classic movie collector but I am the type of person who actually paid more money for the B&W version of the Cristmas Carol, opposed to the cheaper colorized version. This is on VHS. On the other hand, I don't see why anyone would rush to buy old movies on a HD format. If my VHS version of the Cristmas Carol breaks or gets noisy, I may replace it some day but I have to wonder how much better B&W could look in HD. I don't even want to buy DVD's that aren't 5.1 although I do have some because I didn't have the movie or it was a great price. I know I'm a minority but I just refuse to duplicate movies when a new format comes out. I really didn't buy many movies until DVD came along. Actually, if I buy movies at all it has to have an entertainment value that will allow me to be able to watch again in the future. This tends to be the action/Sci-Fi type for me. I guess that puts me in the BR camp.
I don't think you're in the minority on this point. The issue of double dipping IMO is yet another reason I think Blu-ray will ultimately prevail. The biggest selling Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles are concentrated in concurrent and recent releases. Even though these new formats represent a big leap in resolution, this indicates that consumers would generally rather use their budget on titles that they don't already own on DVD.
HD-DVD cannot win a format war by simply letting Universal unload its library titles faster than any of the Blu-ray studios. It might prop up HD-DVD for the short-term, but it won't sustain the format so long as the format maintains fewer exclusives. The new release market, using box office performance as an indicator, will remain dominated by Blu-ray for the foreseeable future. Universal might have a breakout year and create a formidable release slate for HD-DVD, but that might not be enough if Sony, Fox, or Disney keep pace.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
What would keep things whirling as Blockbuster decided to do BR and Hollywood or some other large chain decided to do HD-DVD. What if HD-DVD campt discounted HD movies to the rental chain, maybe as an exclusive, to make it worth their while to jump in.
Maybe. But, it would be a really hard sell since that would mean cutting out the three studios (Fox, Sony, and Disney) that accounted for 50% of last year's box office take. Much easier to only do without Universal's release slate.
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Originally Posted by Woochifer
...this indicates that consumers would generally rather use their budget on titles that they don't already own on DVD.
I don't think that this point can be touched upon enough. My own experience with HD-DVD is that the limitations of the original source material is quite evident on some of my "old favorites". Neither Caddyshack nor Goodfellas offered enough of an improvement over the DVD versions to truly wet my appetite for explorations into the back catalogue.
Do I regret the decision to go HD-DVD? Nah, it was a buck-fifty add on to the X360 and newer titles like The Departed, Children of Men, and Batman Begins are solid, but I have to admit that if I were in the market for a dedicated player it would probably be Blu-Ray if only because it offers more of the new releases in which I'm interested.
I would be surprised if many X-Box owners and early adopters didn't feel the same way.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Let me say I am not a huge classic movie collector but I am the type of person who actually paid more money for the B&W version of the Cristmas Carol, opposed to the cheaper colorized version. This is on VHS. On the other hand, I don't see why anyone would rush to buy old movies on a HD format. If my VHS version of the Cristmas Carol breaks or gets noisy, I may replace it some day but I have to wonder how much better B&W could look in HD.
Classics can look *a lot* better is the answer. Take my previous example of Casablanca and look at the HD DVD version compared to the DVD version... Just no comparison IMO really. The Searchers is another good example... That said, soundwise I would tend to agree that it is dificult to improve much there.
In my case, the reason why I buy "old" movies in HD (or DVD for that matter) is I feel in many cases they are better than the new stuff that is coming out. Of course there are many exceptions and I will buy those new films just as readily as any of the classics that I tend to go for. I just find that a lot of the newer stuff never gets watched by me again, so I pay money for a disc that gathers dust... Again, just one person's choices here, but I think I represent a much greater percentage of film *collectors* than many think. New movies may indeed appeal to many other film purchasers, but I don't call many of those folks film "collectors" in the sense I am talking about as a general rule.
Film collectors are a small segment of the population of video purchasers and as such they (we) will not be the factor that determines which format comes out on top most likely... At the end of the day, a sale is a sale (or a rental is a rental) and if the new stuff draws the most sales/rentals, what classics collectors like myself do will most likely be irrelevant from a macro perspective. From a micro prespective, it could determine if the classics get released by either format, as it shows there is a demand for those titles by "X" amount of people willing to buy (and if "X" equates to enough sales for a decent profit, someone will release the given films in time).
---Dave
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Originally Posted by bobsticks
I don't think that this point can be touched upon enough. My own experience with HD-DVD is that the limitations of the original source material is quite evident on some of my "old favorites". Neither Caddyshack nor Goodfellas offered enough of an improvement over the DVD versions to truly wet my appetite for explorations into the back catalogue.
Do I regret the decision to go HD-DVD? Nah, it was a buck-fifty add on to the X360 and newer titles like The Departed, Children of Men, and Batman Begins are solid, but I have to admit that if I were in the market for a dedicated player it would probably be Blu-Ray if only because it offers more of the new releases in which I'm interested.
I would be surprised if many X-Box owners and early adopters didn't feel the same way.
At least the add-on drive is not a huge up front investment, and it's a tied to a device that has other useful functions. I look at HD-DVD in much the same way as anyone interested in SACD or DVD-A -- if there are certain titles that you absolutely must have in the higher resolution format, then by all means go for it. But, go into the transaction knowing that title selection and availability might not expand by much in the future.
Even if Universal goes neutral and Blu-ray wins the format war, I think that Warner, Paramount, and Universal will continue to issue HD-DVD titles for a little while, which would buy time for the Blu-ray player prices to tumble down to more attractive levels.
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Originally Posted by drseid
In my case, the reason why I buy "old" movies in HD (or DVD for that matter) is I feel in many cases they are better than the new stuff that is coming out. Of course there are many exceptions and I will buy those new films just as readily as any of the classics that I tend to go for. I just find that a lot of the newer stuff never gets watched by me again, so I pay money for a disc that gathers dust... Again, just one person's choices here, but I think I represent a much greater percentage of film *collectors* than many think. New movies may indeed appeal to many other film purchasers, but I don't call many of those folks film "collectors" in the sense I am talking about as a general rule.
Film collectors are a small segment of the population of video purchasers and as such they (we) will not be the factor that determines which format comes out on top most likely... At the end of the day, a sale is a sale (or a rental is a rental) and if the new stuff draws the most sales/rentals, what classics collectors like myself do will most likely be irrelevant from a macro perspective. From a micro prespective, it could determine if the classics get released by either format, as it shows there is a demand for those titles by "X" amount of people willing to buy (and if "X" equates to enough sales for a decent profit, someone will release the given films in time).
You're touching on a fundamental market question that gets at the more problematic issue that Blu-ray will run into even if it wins the format war with HD-DVD -- is the market for HD resolution big enough to supplant the now-entrenched DVD format?
When the DVD came out, it provided multiple upgrades over VHS aside from the improvement in video resolution. The DVD offered up 5.1 audio, anamorphic widescreen, random access search, integration with PC drives, interactive capabilities, a compact form factor, and supplemental features that were previously only available on Laserdisc. Anyone with a regular TV could benefit from the many improvements that the DVD provided over VHS.
With HD-DVD and Blu-ray, the difference primarily comes down to the picture resolution (and to a lesser degree, the audio resolution), and here you're still talking about a market in which less than half of households own a HDTV. Without the HDTV, there's no immediate incentive to upgrade (unless you own a HDMI receiver and want lossless audio).
Even before these HD formats came to market, some analysts speculated that the DVD was already "good enough" for the majority of consumers. Obviously this will change once HDTV ownership increases. But, I don't see HD-DVD and Blu-ray creating a mad rush of people looking to replace their DVD libraries. Consumers might replace selected favorites, but this won't be like the DVD format, which fundamentally changed the home video market by shifting consumers more towards purchasing rather than renting movies. The DVD greatly expanded the number of video collectors. But, if someone has already accumulated hundreds or thousands of DVDs, I doubt that even a majority of those titles will get upgraded.
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Dave, I definitely agree that the classic movies sure offer more substance. Now that AMC really don't play much in the way of classics anymore, I may be forced to pick up more on disc. We still have TMC but I really don't watch that much TV. If I am going to drive 5 channels plus a sub, I want a movie that will fire them up. It's just two different types of viewing. If I watch an old movie, I usually just play it through the TV speakers.
Some day down the road when NTSC gets turned off and people have to go HD, I don't see the point of a DVD player anymore as the HD players are backward compatible. And then, why continue with the DVD standard discs? Of course, that wasn't the scenario with SACD/DVD-A, was it. Man, I hate it when I come up with a counterpoint to my own point. Ah, but no one was turning off CD. DVD users will at least have to have Progressive scan and component or HDMI, or some way to down scale. This could all be a long time down the road though as a NTSC tube TV can sustain some one for a lot of years. It just depends on how consumers will deal with the big turn off.
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Classics...
Deserve to be discovered by new generations and it's a crime when they show poor prints, or cut versions of classic films, especially when they show the P&S versions....arrggg....who can watch it like that and really love it? Not me.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Dave, I definitely agree that the classic movies sure offer more substance. Now that AMC really don't play much in the way of classics anymore, I may be forced to pick up more on disc. We still have TMC but I really don't watch that much TV. If I am going to drive 5 channels plus a sub, I want a movie that will fire them up. It's just two different types of viewing. If I watch an old movie, I usually just play it through the TV speakers.
Ditto for Bravo (at least in the U.S.). What was once a place to catch interesting movies across several genres is now nothing more than a depository for designer reality shows.
The viewing on those channels, especially TMC, might get more interesting once they go HD. Several of the heavyweight expanded cable/satellite channels like A&E, FX, MTV, and CNN are going HD before the end of the year, and it's only a matter of time before the majority of the others add HD broadcasts.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Some day down the road when NTSC gets turned off and people have to go HD, I don't see the point of a DVD player anymore as the HD players are backward compatible. And then, why continue with the DVD standard discs? Of course, that wasn't the scenario with SACD/DVD-A, was it. Man, I hate it when I come up with a counterpoint to my own point. Ah, but no one was turning off CD. DVD users will at least have to have Progressive scan and component or HDMI, or some way to down scale. This could all be a long time down the road though as a NTSC tube TV can sustain some one for a lot of years. It just depends on how consumers will deal with the big turn off.
Another angle to this will be the degree to which retailers tolerate going with multiple formats. Historically, retailers have hated carrying multiple versions for music and video releases. If Blu-ray or HD-DVD eventually builds up enough market share, then the retailers very well could accelerate the DVD format's demise by phasing the format out. This would be no different than when major retailers started clearing out their VHS inventory, even before the DVD had passed VHS in market share (though judging by the DVD's sales growth, it had by then become obvious that the DVD was well on its way to pushing VHS out the door). Or when music stores started dropping vinyl in order to expand their CD sections.
However, if Blu-ray or HD-DVD sales momentum stalls or does not otherwise meet projections, then you might see retailers dial back on the shelf space that they allocate to the HD formats. This would be a similar situation to SACD and DVD-A, which came to market and got some major retailers on board, but the shelf space for those formats never expanded, and those sections have either languished or gotten phased out altogether.
Also the pending phaseout is simply a phase out of analog broadcast signals. Cable companies can continue to retransmit the contents over their analog NTSC cable systems, and that alone will keep the millions of older TVs from instantly turning into oversized doorstops. The mandate is not for HD resolution, but more for the implementation of digital TV broadcasts. A station can cutoff its analog broadcasts, and still keep its OTA digital broadcasts entirely at non-HD resolution.
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When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement?
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement?
In all fairness, I don't recall that TMC ever broadcast colorized movies (although Turner stablemate TBS very often showed the colorized versions), and I don't think that the colorizing process gets done at HD resolution anyway.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement?
When the colorize a film I just watch it on my 42" B&W Plasma TV set. lol.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement?
Nope, B&W stays B&W.
---Dave
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In the old days before video games when men fought wars to stay occupied lines of soldiers would meet on an open field and basically "push" against one another.
This is where the phrase "holding the line" came from.
Nobody wants toshiba to succeed and their "line" is failing, the blockbuster announcement
is just a few more of tosh's soldiers getting trampled.
Computer types want the storage, peeps selling old reruns of flipper or happy days want to keep the no of discs to a minimum.
And collectors and renters are a different market from each other, one collects classics, concerts, tv episodes and the renters rent whatever cannon fodder comes out on tuesday.
Anyway I haave seen this before, and you'll be surprized:yikes: at how fast hd CRASHES
AND BURNS.
And the marketing wonks at toshiba know this, they are just trying to figure out how to exit
with the maximum number of fingers and toes
NO way this third rate electronics company had the cahones to run up against sony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Nobody wants toshiba to succeed and their "line" is failing, the blockbuster announcement
is just a few more of tosh's soldiers getting trampled.
Computer types want the storage, peeps selling old reruns of flipper or happy days want to keep the no of discs to a minimum.
And collectors and renters are a different market from each other, one collects classics, concerts, tv episodes and the renters rent whatever cannon fodder comes out on tuesday.
Anyway I haave seen this before, and you'll be surprized:yikes: at how fast hd CRASHES
AND BURNS.
NO way this third rate electronics company had the cahones to run up against sony
Let me be one that goes on record that *I* want Toshiba to succeed...
As for Toshiba going up against Sony... Last time I checked DVD did pretty good. How quickly people forget. :-)
---Dave
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Dave; I notice you have both HD & Blu ray disc players, care to share which you prefer and why? Maybe your hands on experience of the pros & cons of each. Thanks
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Dave; I notice you have both HD & Blu ray disc players, care to share which you prefer and why? Maybe your hands on experience of the pros & cons of each. Thanks
I prefer HD DVD, but I would say it is more a function of the player and releases rather than HD DVD being the "superior" format.
I guess my HD DVD loyalty started when Toshiba came out with the HD-A1s at a very reasonable entry price for the format, and then their relentless customer support afterwards through automatic software updates (downloadable direct to the player with discs sent without having to ask too) coupled with a strong slate of films that appealed to collectors like myself.
In the case of my Sony Blu-ray player, I payed twice as much and it still does not perform as well as my Toshiba. Sony also has truly had *awful* customer support using foreign call centers where you are placed on hold for 20 minutes plus (one call I had this happen twice), and the rep cannot even understand you (and vice-versa). Anytime a software update is available Sony never lets the customer know, and you have to request a disc instead of it being sent to you automatically like Toshiba (plus there is no download direct to the player like the A1 as there is no internet connection). I have found that the S-1 is also a very poor upsampling DVD player (whereas the A1 is steller in this regard --although both have trouble reading some DVDs). Software released for Blu-ray has been of some interest recently to me, but nowhere near that of the HD DVD releases. The main "pro" here (and it is a BIG one) is Blu-ray has much better studio support.
All of the above said, both players (and formats) were rushed to market and are just now really hitting their stride. I could easily live with either format in the end as both produce equally good pictures when they are on their respective games. I have found on the audio side HD DVD has had superior releases, but that will change in time as Blu-ray also starts to take advantage of the Dolby TrueHD soundtracks (my S-1 now can play Dolby TrueHD through the latest upgrade).
The bottom line is it comes down to customer service and strategy in order to get my support. HD DVD was thinking of early adopters with HD DVD... offering superior after-the-sale support, and a release slate that catered to collectors at reasonable prices. Blu-ray came out of the gate with inferior quality releases (again based on my personal film preferences) and a sky high greedy price skimming strategy. For me supporting HD DVD was an easy decision early on.
Now that Blu-ray has had a chance to work out the kinks, it is pretty much on par with HD DVD and the release slate is definitely branching out with Warner going dual format a while back. So in the end, I still am routing for HD DVD for its initial support and lower prices, but I would actually be happy with both formats surviving in the end...
---Dave
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