FINALLY - Revel Performa Series 3

[Ajani]

So I've been waiting for a few years now for Revel to replace the Performa (and Concerta) range of speakers... Well CES 2012 will finally be the one. According to Canada HIFI:

Revel:
The brand will replace its entire Performa series of bookshelf and tower speakers with the Performa3 series. The new series is said to raise performance through advances in driver design. Prices will also drop slightly.

The first eight speakers will be priced from a targeted $1,200 U.S./pair to $4,500 U.S./pair. Two more speakers due in the fall will add a third tower at around $6,000 U.S. to $6,500 U.S. /pair.

The first eight speakers will consist of two bookshelf models, two floorstanding towers, two center channels, one bipolar surround and one subwoofer.

New Products from Harman | CANADA HiFi Magazine

Based on the prices, it seems like Revel maybe replacing the Concerta line by expanding the Performa line downwards into cheaper territory... Very cool news for Revel fans...

[JohnMichael]

Thanks for letting us know. I will be keeping an eye open for the release and hopefully an ear open if I find a dealer.

[Mash]

GM has slid product names downmarket for years- perhaps on the theory that many uninformed people would think they were getting a bargain from their dealer.

The once top of the line Chevys (I prob left some names out):

Biscane, Belaire, Impala, Caprice, Caprice Classic......... Each started as the top trim line and then slowly slid down the lineup until they fell off the bottom and into history.

I have never seen a company try to slide a product name upmarket.

[Ajani]

GM has slid product names downmarket for years- perhaps on the theory that many uninformed people would think they were getting a bargain from their dealer.

The once top of the line Chevys (I prob left some names out):

Biscane, Belaire, Impala, Caprice, Caprice Classic......... Each started as the top trim line and then slowly slid down the lineup until they fell off the bottom and into history.

I have never seen a company try to slide a product name upmarket.

I'm not so sure about that... HiFi products generally go up and up in price (more than just inflation)... The B&W 805 has moved from around $2.5K to $5K in the latest version, so a large move upmarket for that pair of speakers...

[Mash]

Price increases and market position are different.

I bought a new Camry in 1991 for $12000 and a new Camry in 2007 for $23000. True, the 2007 is 3X the 1991 version.... but they are both Camrys.

Also people may not like "having to settle for less" so having one "model line" with different "trim lines" softens that blow. You cannot get the customer to buy if you make him/her feel bad about their purchase.

[Ajani]

Price increases and market position are different.

I bought a new Camry in 1991 for $12000 and a new Camry in 2007 for $23000. True, the 2007 is 3X the 1991 version.... but they are both Camrys.

Also people may not like "having to settle for less" so having one "model line" with different "trim lines" softens that blow. You cannot get the customer to buy if you make him/her feel bad about their purchase.

There were probably around 4 or 5 Camry models and a lot of inflation in between 91 and 07... The B&W example is literally from one year's model to the next... It was not about inflation... The new model uses a Diamond tweeter (far more expensive than anything used on the previous versions... So it is a change in market position, and not just price...

HiFi brands tend to move successful product lines up and then introduce cheaper lines below them to take over their old positions...

I'll have to see the new Revel line, but it may just be that Revel has gone for the latest trend of having a smaller monitor and tower in the line-up (the usual 5" driver in the smaller models versus 6.5" in the larger models)... So the replacements for the existing speakers may be around the same price as the old versions... while the 2 new models might sacrifice driver and cabinet size to meet lower price points...

[Mr Peabody]

I read that Revel was re-voicing the Performa series to mimmick more of a Dynaudio sound

[Ajani]

I read that Revel was re-voicing the Performa series to mimmick more of a Dynaudio sound

LOL

[hyfynut]

I read that Revel was re-voicing the Performa series to mimmick more of a Dynaudio sound

That would be terrible !! The Revels are one of the most honest speakers out there , with the Dynaudio's being very good but much less honest and far from as flat off axess as the Performa.

[Ajani]

That would be terrible !! The Revels are one of the most honest speakers out there , with the Dynaudio's being very good but much less honest and far from as flat off axess as the Performa.

LOL... I'm pretty sure Mr Peabody was just joking (he owned Dynaudio before upgrading to Revel Performa)...

[frenchmon]

Peabody!!!! just where did you hear that!??!?!?! I would be surprised if there was any truth in that!!!

This is the end of the year...not April Fools man!

So kindly site your source here please!

[RGA]

Jack

It's just marketing BS from B&W - Usher incidentally sounds a lot better for a lot less.

B&W goes on about tube tapering to reduce ringing but their tweeters CREATE the ringing in the first place. So the 705 does a poor job of it so you upgrade to the 805 but it's only marginally better so you buy the diamond version. Once that is somewhat acceptably satisfying the speakers still don't integrate properly and they don't have much bass - so you buy a sub - more integration problems.

Every few years they come out with some new driver that will fix loudspeakers forever. The Be 10 is several thousand less than the D802 - and IMO there's no comparison.

[Ajani]

Another slightly different version of the announcement of new products from the Harman Luxury Audio Group (I love the name - about damn time someone in high end accepts that their products are luxury items):

Harman Group Adding Audio Under Four Brands - 2011-12-19 05:01:00 | TWICE

[Mr Peabody]

Good to see Levinson offering digital sources again. The JBL Array are really good too. I couldn't get them to image in my room properly but they did convince me JBL can make some top flight gear. Stereophile gave the Array 1400's a Class A rating FWIW.

[frenchmon]

Good to see Levinson offering digital sources again. The JBL Array are really good too. I couldn't get them to image in my room properly but they did convince me JBL can make some top flight gear. Stereophile gave the Array 1400's a Class A rating FWIW.

Yeah the Array are good speakers. I keep thinking they where just to big for your room and may have needed more power to bring out the best in them. They seem to not do voices correctly and not image they way they should have. I betcha it was one of those synergy problems.

[RGA]

Not to Nitpick - but the class ratings are chosen by one guy - John Atkinson - not really "Stereophile" since that implies a consensus or even a majority would choose a given product. That is not what happens. A more apt name like the Brit magazines do - is name it Editor's Choice.

The reason I note this distinction is because a magazine is made up of a say 10 reviewers or more. Each has their own view and each would come up with very different lists.

It would be like a hypothetical world of watching the old Siskel and Ebert and they each choose a ten best list but only one list gets presented because Ebert owns the show and he dismisses what Siskel chooses. And if you watched the show you'd know both would have loved that :-)

[Ajani]

Not to Nitpick - but the class ratings are chosen by one guy - John Atkinson - not really "Stereophile" since that implies a consensus or even a majority would choose a given product. That is not what happens. A more apt name like the Brit magazines do - is name it Editor's Choice.

The reason I note this distinction is because a magazine is made up of a say 10 reviewers or more. Each has their own view and each would come up with very different lists.

It would be like a hypothetical world of watching the old Siskel and Ebert and they each choose a ten best list but only one list gets presented because Ebert owns the show and he dismisses what Siskel chooses. And if you watched the show you'd know both would have loved that :-)

I read the December review of the Rega Brio-R by Sam Tellig and while I see that Sam liked the amp and thought the phono stage was the best he had heard in a $1K amp, I still have no idea where he would rate the amp. For all I know the amp may get a Class D rating in the recommended components issue.

I really wish that the Stereophile reviewers would rate each product at the end of their reviews... So we could know what the reviewer really thought of the rating at the time... They should still have the Recommended Products Issue (or Editors Choice if you prefer)... They can always put a little disclaimer at the end of each review to state that the rating by the reviewer is not the final rating and is subject to change in the Recommended Products Issue.

This practice would not even be entirely new as some reviews do state quite plainly that the reviewer thinks the product is class A or borderline class B etc... So it would just make it a consistent requirement...

[Mash]

So folks still anguish over Steriopile equipment ratings? I am glad. Somebody has to- I quit c. 1978. Too often something was Class A or Class B one year and then not even mentioned the next year. One could also track the advertisements, but that was being cynical.

I completely gave up when a reviewer complained that the SPL meter he was using to measure loudspeakers was rather non-linear. It was an A-weighted meter. Gee, maybe he should have tried a C-weighted meter?

I still think that one should attend a generous number of recitals and then get what provides a similar sound. Then be happy and save the rest of your money for retirement. TV's are being improved every year so that we can better see the junk shown, but sound equipment?

Bargain of the Day: Audiophile Outlet is offering some Einstein 60W mono OTL amps for $20,000 each. Includes a premium caps upgrade. Better hurry.

[RGA]

Ajani

I'm not sure there is any point because the awards thing is business - big sellers. The reviewers at these magazines do not hear every component - they hear the ones they get for review - and some hear a lot more than others and they have to remember what they heard over the years to try and slot the product into some sort of rating scheme. I have tried but it still boils down to an incomplete selection at given price points.

Hi-Fi Choice at least does blind level matched session but that still is only against the competition for that particular issues. So an amp that finishes say in 3rd place - might have finished first in a test three months later in effect it could be that that amp beats a recommended amp in a different issue.

Even my argument - "what did the reviewer actually buy" - this IMO is telling in that the reviewer spent his own cash on the speakers and if he has heard a lot of speakers over the years then that speaker is the best he has heard in that price range (and under) on the market. BUT, he may like a speaker better at 4 times the money - just can't afford it (even with a reviewer discount - which often just the price you could pay for it on the second hand or demo market).

I am often curious about lists because they don't make much sense most of the time.

Speaker 1 is class B.

Stereophile reviewers and technical article contributors

Reviewer 1 (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers) bought the speaker and says he would give it A++. (long time Quad panel owner)

Reviewer 2: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and well versed in technical issues - "for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the [speaker 1] system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard." (long time Dynaudio, Revel, Wilson owner and yet speaker 1 beats them all in his very own words)

Reviewer 3: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and recording engineer and technical writers) "Dunno 'bout "best," but here's the most memorable....Now, the last movement of the Wheeler completion is longer than many whole symphonies of the Classical era, but all of us were entranced.../...I later analogized it by saying that most hi-fi gave you a clear view of an animatronic dummy, while that system give you a somewhat foggy window with a real person on the other side..../...But that [speaker 1] system did things I have not heard since.

Technical Adviser contributing editor bought the speakers.

Speaker 2 (class A rated) - no one bought a pair - no one extolled any such verbiage on them - claiming "best they ever heard or most memorable sound etc). And there are a LOT of class A rated speakers where no such verbiage and no reviewer bought a pair. Indeed reading the review of some of them the noted issues in the treble or lacking dynamics makes me want to puke a little in my mouth. Best of the best and it's bright or is dynamically anaemic - probably the two most important aspects of sound reproduction - bright means you can't listen long - write-off. Dynamics is the lifeblood of music.

So you tell me how exactly that makes any sense.

The only thing that makes sense for a consumer is to find a particular reviewer you agree with when it comes to sound reproduction. Follow the reviewer not the magazine. You won't even get reviewers on the same staff to agree with each other on the sound. I may agree with them on politics and some products but not every one of them. Two writers at Stereophile are complete opposites - one preferring SET the other thinks it's terrible and believes you need 1000 watt amps as some sort of minimum reading between the lines. How could they possibly come up with class A - unless of course they "settle" on the mediocrity middle ground where they both give something a pass. (judging by just about everything I have heard that gets class A it would not surprise me if the mediocrity rises to the top.

I'll give you an example - Movie reviews - There may be a movie that 100 critics see - 90 of them give it 3/5 which is a pass. 5 hate 1/5 and 5 liked it a fair bit 4/5- so the rating is 95% fresh

Looks great that is definitely a Class A race to the theater movie - but wait - in fact 90 out of the 100 really only marginally liked it with a 60% score and the 5 on each end cancel each other out. No one felt the movie was GREAT.

Film 2 gets 80% fresh rating - 60 out of 100 reviewers give it 5/5 thinking it's one of the year's or decade's best- 10 give it 4/5 and 10 give it 3/5 and 20 give it 2.5/5 (marginal thumbs down) but no one disliked it and 60% absolutely loved it and many are going to want the deluxe boxed set Blu Ray and are happy to shell out the cash for it.

The overall rating places this film in the second tier down list even though you have a real good chance of LOVING this movie - while the 95% class A rated movie most people like but none of the critics LOVE it and none of them want to buy the Blu Ray or even the DVD in the cheap bin.

What I want to know is would they buy if they could buy it and why not. Movie X was pretty good but I would never want to watch it again. I liked reviewing X component but I would never want to live with it long term. Or if he would buy it but didn't then explain why not. For instance had I had a different system and money - I would have bought the Grant Fidelity Rita amp or even better the Shengya monoblocks which are absurdly good. The OTO is simply better with the AN J not necessarily that the OTO itself is a better amp.

Eventually I will make a league table of gear. I have to think it through and I want to listen to several things several more times to be sure. I like Audiofederation's classifications of amplifiers and how they rate each company's top of the line amps against eachother - they have a list for tubes and one for SS. But it doesn't help those of us in the 'sane prices" camp.

[Ajani]

Speaker 1 is class B.

Stereophile reviewers and technical article contributors

Reviewer 1 (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers) bought the speaker and says he would give it A++. (long time Quad panel owner)

Reviewer 2: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and well versed in technical issues - "for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the [speaker 1] system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard." (long time Dynaudio, Revel, Wilson owner and yet speaker 1 beats them all in his very own words)

Reviewer 3: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and recording engineer and technical writers) "Dunno 'bout "best," but here's the most memorable....Now, the last movement of the Wheeler completion is longer than many whole symphonies of the Classical era, but all of us were entranced.../...I later analogized it by saying that most hi-fi gave you a clear view of an animatronic dummy, while that system give you a somewhat foggy window with a real person on the other side..../...But that [speaker 1] system did things I have not heard since.

Technical Adviser contributing editor bought the speakers.

Speaker 2 (class A rated) - no one bought a pair - no one extolled any such verbiage on them - claiming "best they ever heard or most memorable sound etc). And there are a LOT of class A rated speakers where no such verbiage and no reviewer bought a pair. Indeed reading the review of some of them the noted issues in the treble or lacking dynamics makes me want to puke a little in my mouth. Best of the best and it's bright or is dynamically anaemic - probably the two most important aspects of sound reproduction - bright means you can't listen long - write-off. Dynamics is the lifeblood of music.

LOL... I've damn near had the same reaction reading those kind of reviews... IMO, a Class A component should be free of such nasty limitations... In fact, that's where my definition for Class B begins... Class C or lower can have obvious flaws...

I like Stereophile's Class system as it is rare to see a mag have the balls to try rate each component on an absolute scale... So a $1K amp might be rated Class B and a $5K rated Class C...

However, I agree that the system is seriously flawed. The most obvious problem being the execution - Why does one product get class A versus another? Is it all down to the Editor's decision?

The only thing that makes sense for a consumer is to find a particular reviewer you agree with when it comes to sound reproduction. Follow the reviewer not the magazine. You won't even get reviewers on the same staff to agree with each other on the sound. I may agree with them on politics and some products but not every one of them.

Well this point actually ties in to my suggestion of having each reviewer rate the product on his own scale.... So If I have similar tastes to Art Dudley; then I know that a product rated Class A in his review (within my budget) is a MUST audition... I can always put products rated Class A by Mike Fremer or John Atkinson at the bottom of my audition list (assuming I generally don't share their respective tastes in equipment)...

[Mash]

Use a Pugh Matrix.

I use these for real estate, because houses can be so variable and impossible to compare, and one needs a tool that measures each house's CTQ's on a level playing field.

1. First you define your list of CTQ's (Critical to Quality). These define what is important to YOU.
2. Then you assign a weighting factor to each CTQ. Say 1,2,3,4 or 5.

Steps 1. & 2. will consume the majority of your time.......

3. Now you evaluate each unit by giving a score for each CTQ. I use 1, 3, 9
............ 1 = less than I expected; 3 = what I expected; and 9 = significantly better than what I expected.

When you look at each house you will focus only on YOUR list of CTQ's. Sometimes you have to rebuild your list of CTQ's to get your goal(s) correctly defined.

You wind up with "Score = Sum of {CTQ W.F.} times {score for CTQ.}

To wit:

1. 3 x 3 = 9
2. 1 x 4 = 4
3. 9 x 2 = 18
Score = 31

Some CTQ's for houses:

1. Traffic Pattern (how do people move through the house?)
2. Quality of Construction
3. Landscaping
4. Location - w/r/t Work
5. Location - w/r/t Schools
6. Location - w/r/t is it on a busy street/road?
7. Basement (Dry?)
8. Storage
............. and so forth.

At this point, comparisons become easy.

You can calculate

COST = "Price / Score", and "Price / Square Feet"

QUALITY of Sq. Ft. = "Score / Square feet"

[Mr Peabody]

The fact is the JBL Array 1400's were given a Class A rating. Notice I did state "FWIW" for what it's worth. There have been Class A gear on the list I wouldn't personally own nor understood the rating given.

Hi Fi is subjective to us all, there is a lot of expensive gear I wouldn't personally use in my listening room yet gets good reviews and some one must buy it because the companies are still in business. Also, adjectives used to describe gear usually mean different things to different people. Every one has their own meaning come to mind when hearing "emotion", "musical", "warm" etc. Some dismiss reviews all together some find them fun and some misled count them as gospel.

[Ajani]

The fact is the JBL Array 1400's were given a Class A rating. Notice I did state "FWIW" for what it's worth. There have been Class A gear on the list I wouldn't personally own nor understood the rating given.

Hi Fi is subjective to us all, there is a lot of expensive gear I wouldn't personally use in my listening room yet gets good reviews and some one must buy it because the companies are still in business. Also, adjectives used to describe gear usually mean different things to different people. Every one has their own meaning come to mind when hearing "emotion", "musical", "warm" etc. Some dismiss reviews all together some find them fun and some misled count them as gospel.

I think the mistake is to take reviews too seriously... I think people who either treat them as gospel or dismiss them completely miss the point of reviews. A review gives you an idea of products to audition. Products should not be purchased based solely on the basis of reviews (unless you are ordering from a internet only brand with a very good return policy - in which case it's really just an in-home-audition).

[RGA]

I think the main problem is that today everything gets a rave review. let's face it most stuff is at least decent - and some stuff is quite good but perhaps too expensive to be "merely" good.

Some stuff plays better with certain stuff and doesn't with certain other stuff.

You can go with measurements but looking at what reviewers actually buy after listening to hundreds of pieces of gear and arguably being more experienced than the average Joe - I don't see any correlation with what they end up choosing at the graph. I also don't see with "independent" blind level matched sessions as the stuff that gets chosen as sounding the best doesn't measure the best. And it needs to be independent - not run by a corporation.

The other is to go with reviews.

IMO there are two good ways to do this - one is to go with a reviewer who hears it the same as you. Chances are if you and him agree 90% of the time then there is a good chance you will like his next recommendation. This however doesn't mean you will - just means you have a better chance that you will.

Option two is the consensus approach. Do many reviewers like it from different countries at different totally independent magazines. Better if they bought them or go way over the top.

Saying "This speaker was wonderfully revealing and had solid bass and treble response was a pleasure to listen to and I highly recommend it to everyone" is still very much different from "this is the best hi-fi I have ever heard and everything else is noise." One is a very nice product at a given price point the other is world class.

To me it is important to recognize the difference in the language used because IME there is very very clearly a gradation in sound quality from one system to another system - hell there is that just WITHIN some company line-ups.

[manlystanley]

Option two is the consensus approach. Do many reviewers like it from different countries at different totally independent magazines. Better if they bought them or go way over the top.

This is the approach that I try to do. One of the sites that I used for equipment search is: EXCELIA HIFI - top 1000

Best regards,
Stan