What became of digital AV receivers?

[Feanor]

For what it's worth, I find them similar to the "Halcro" sound - somewhat bleached and sterile. Some reviewers, however, seem to go for that character. To each his own.

rw

I understand what you're saying in so far as I understand "bleached and sterile". Note that these are pejorative terms that reflect a large amount of personal preference. I suppose the opposite would be having more "harmonic color". Arguably the Bel Canto eVo2i (Tripath) had the these qualities relative to, say, a lot of tube equipment or my own Monarchy SM-70 Pros.

I preferred the Monarchys over the Bel Canto on 70% of recordings -- but the other 30% were the better recordings. FWIW, the Class D Audio SDS-258 I judge to be less "bleached and sterile" than the Bel Canto. Also, though it is a more "spare" sounding amp than the Monarchys, it has truer rendition of the complex harmonics of accoustic instruments -- to me this is more important than pleasant coloration. So now my preference ratio is reversed: I prefer the class D amp on 70% of recordings.

[pixelthis]

I understand that totally. I do the same. I would never have the gear I have if I didn't get it cheap.

But, you also could have purchased a used killer amp for the same money.

Again, you didn't read my post about the Rotel properly. First of all, at it's original $800 price, it was in no way cheap gear. I also said that although it sounded pretty good, it did not sound as good as the Hafler, Stratos, or Counterpoint.

I plan to use it to drive family room and outdoor speakers as well as have a tuner and headphone capabilities in my main system.

The only time I waste and can never get back, is when I respond to your posts, but like others said....it's sometimes the most fun that can be had here.

Why buy used when I GOT A NEW killer amp with a three year warrenty?
A lot went into buying the Emo, for one thing I was rather disbelieving about them.
Also I HAD 300 BUCKS left from my 401k, and it was the Emo or the TRACK.
Also also I DON'T BUY USED, works for you fine, but I PUT UP MY SOLDERING GUN
a long time ago, some like the fuss and heartbreak of buying used stuff from someone you never met, and all of the risks that go along with it.
BASICALLY I was surfing the web (kowabunga) and saw this amp for 250 bucks,
with 125 WPC, a toroidal transformer the size of a cats head, distortion specs
under .1%(lower than talkys I.Q) and great looks and warranty.
Ordered it on the spot (at night yet) and it got therethe next day double boxed
and being handled by a Fed ex guy with surgical gloves.
I love it basically, it runs cool, plays LOUD, and is a delight.
WANT TO BUY someone elses problems, go right ahead.

[Hyfi]

Also also I DON'T BUY USED, works for you fine, but I PUT UP MY SOLDERING GUN
a long time ago, some like the fuss and heartbreak of buying used stuff from someone you never met, and all of the risks that go along with it.

WANT TO BUY someone elses problems, go right ahead.

The Rotel I just got came from people I have known for 25 years. I finally talked them into buying the Rotel after smoking several mass market receivers trying to run a whole house system. I have probably used it as much as them over the years but only ever heard it drive crappy ceiling speakers. I couldn't go wrong for $100.

As far as my main setup goes, here is a link to how I came to own it. Again, I knew the guy for 20 years and the gear came from David Lewis Audio in Philly. I knew it's history and had listened to it all many a night kicking back with some brews.

I had never bought any used gear until then.

The resurrection of an old killer system

[Woochifer]

I think the most telling aspect of this is that Sony has moved its receiver lineup back to Class A/B after migrating the ES models to Class D a few years ago. Word got out very quickly that those receivers did not sound very good, and had horrendous reliability issues. Of course, they'd had issues with their receivers for years even before the design change.

[Feanor]

I think the most telling aspect of this is that Sony has moved its receiver lineup back to Class A/B after migrating the ES models to Class D a few years ago. Word got out very quickly that those receivers did not sound very good, and had horrendous reliability issues. Of course, they'd had issues with their receivers for years even before the design change.

I'm not sure what it tells me. Maybe that Sony's implementation of class D was poor -- maybe due to their inexperience or maybe due to cheaper alternatives of design. I suspect that good class D control chips cost a lot more than the few cents for bipolar or MOSFET transistors.

In any case you shouldn't generalize from the Sony example. I've owned three class D amps and they are sounded good and were (or are) reliable. That said, their sound might not appeal to everyone, but I observe that the nature of that criticism bears a strong resemblance to the perennial tube vs. sold state debate. My current Class D Audio amp is the best sounding amp that I've owned.

[Poultrygeist]

My Panny XR55 has been run daily for the past 5 years and it resides on a cramped unvented shelf under my 46 inch Hitachi. In all these many hours of operation it has never missed a beat. The same holds true for my bedroom JVC digital AV receiver. My brother-in-law has worn out two Denons during the same time period.

I suspect the Class D AV receivers didn't catch on as they are smaller and weigh so little. Many people equate weight and heft with quality.

[pixelthis]

I'm not sure what it tells me. Maybe that Sony's implementation of class D was poor -- maybe due to their inexperience or maybe due to cheaper alternatives of design. I suspect that good class D control chips cost a lot more than the few cents for bipolar or MOSFET transistors.

In any case you shouldn't generalize from the Sony example. I've owned three class D amps and they are sounded good and were (or are) reliable. That said, their sound might not appeal to everyone, but I observe that the nature of that criticism bears a strong resemblance to the perennial tube vs. sold state debate. My current Class D Audio amp is the best sounding amp that I've owned.

I bought a top of the line Sony HT in 94", left channel burnt out after a few years, paid
125 bucks, burnt out again six months later.
Brother bought a Sony a few after that, has always sounded like a cheap transistor
radio like the kind Sony started out with.
Sony makes great video stuff, I will never figure out why some insist on trying to
make them into an audio company.
You don't buy your groceries from the Ford dealer do you? THE ONE ADVANTAGE OF COMPONENTS is that you can get speakers from a dedicated speaker company, amps from an audio company, and monitors from SONY.
Why buy stuff they arent very good at making and probably outsource anyway?
Like, I heard they were using I.C's for amps! GOD.

[pixelthis]

My Panny XR55 has been run daily for the past 5 years and it resides on a cramped unvented shelf under my 46 inch Hitachi. In all these many hours of operation it has never missed a beat. The same holds true for my bedroom JVC digital AV receiver. My brother-in-law has worn out two Denons during the same time period.

I suspect the Class D AV receivers didn't catch on as they are smaller and weigh so little. Many people equate weight and heft with quality.

Panny makes decent stuff that lasts, I have a DVD audio player, eight years old,
699$, two Technics turntables from the eighties, making a HTIB is childs play by
comparison.
THEY WILL DIG THAT THING UP in fifty million years(the aliens that find our planet after we
die off) , and hook it up in their saucer.

[pixelthis]

Ever heard of measuring square wave response? It is a good measure of linearity. Here are 10 kHz square waves from a tube amp, an AB solid state amp and a switching amp. Can you tell any difference?






rw

Whats important is can you hear any difference, and once again you miss the point.
IT DOESNT MATTER what a digital amp does to sound, so called "audiophiles"
don't care, they will be convinced its a bad job, and the same fertile imaginations that
find a difference between two power cords from radio Shack because one is a different color will never accept digital amps. If there is no difference between one and a
straight class a, they will find one, is all I AM SAYING.

[E-Stat]

What's important is: can you hear any difference?

Indeed. In that respect, we most certainly differ in our abilities. You possess a strange fear of testing your sensitivity to harmonic distortion.

rw

[pixelthis]

Indeed. In that respect, we most certainly differ in our abilities. You possess a strange fear of testing your sensitivity to harmonic distortion.

rw

I don't need to test it, for me its not a "feature" like it is with tube buyers.
THAT "warm and fuzzy" tube sound is as obsolete as the gear making it.
YOU seem to have a "fear" of actually believing what test equipment says.
And considering your imagination more important.
I CAN'T AFFORD THAT, can't spend hundreds on , say a power cord from
an industrial supply catalog, just because it has a pretty package.

[E-Stat]

I don't need to test it, for me its not a "feature" like it is with tube buyers.

You will never understand sonic aspects like harmonic accuracy and sound staging.

YOU seem to have a "fear" of actually believing what test equipment says.

On the contrary, I tested my ability to determine the relevance of the data. There is a difference between information and knowledge.

I CAN'T AFFORD THAT, can't spend hundreds on , say a power cord from an industrial supply catalog, just because it has a pretty package.

While I can afford pretty packages, I purchase product for performance gains. You'll not find much in the way of cosmetic enhancements, fancy meters, indicators or backlighting with my gear.

rw

[Woochifer]

I'm not sure what it tells me. Maybe that Sony's implementation of class D was poor -- maybe due to their inexperience or maybe due to cheaper alternatives of design. I suspect that good class D control chips cost a lot more than the few cents for bipolar or MOSFET transistors.

In any case you shouldn't generalize from the Sony example. I've owned three class D amps and they are sounded good and were (or are) reliable. That said, their sound might not appeal to everyone, but I observe that the nature of that criticism bears a strong resemblance to the perennial tube vs. sold state debate. My current Class D Audio amp is the best sounding amp that I've owned.

I'm don't think I'm overgeneralizing. The topic was digital receivers, which a lot of people thought would take over the industry. It made some inroads at the low end, in the subwoofer market, and at the high end. But, in the receiver segment, its use never took off and is now in decline. Sony and Pioneer both made the migration to Class D a few years ago, and Sony has completely pulled out, while Pioneer continues to use Class D only with their higher end models.

[Feanor]

I'm don't think I'm overgeneralizing. The topic was digital receivers, which a lot of people thought would take over the industry. It made some inroads at the low end, in the subwoofer market, and at the high end. But, in the receiver segment, its use never took off and is now in decline. Sony and Pioneer both made the migration to Class D a few years ago, and Sony has completely pulled out, while Pioneer continues to use Class D only with their higher end models.

Interesting that Pioneer continues to use class D on higher end models.